Scariest Enemy as written?

[Drrakerr]

Kind of an off the wall question, what do you guys and gals think is the strongest monster as written? By strongest, I mean what monster do you think SHOULD have the highest CR? I'm limiting this to printed materials. As core goes, I've always thought the Protean scourge was sort of obnoxious.

[Iron Angel]

Pretty sure that damn crab is at least cr30.

[ryu]

Pretty sure that damn crab is at least cr30.

While over-cred by at least a few challenge ratings I still say that thing is tough but doable with third level spells, easy with access to fourths, and trivial with fifths.

[TypoNinja]

Scariest ever? or scariest at CR?

My party has always found ankegs a great way to kill PC's.

[Emperor Tippy]

Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons.

One of those actually using its casting ability and played to its mental stats will wreck pretty much anything published in any official 3.0 or 3.5 book.

[kellbyb]

Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons.

One of those actually using its casting ability and played to its mental stats will wreck pretty much anything published in any official 3.0 or 3.5 book.

Really? I'm currently under the impression that since it's CR 66 but only casts at level 38, GWPD < Wizard 66.

[Drrakerr]

When I said scariest, I meant what monster do yall think should have the highest CR.

[AlanBruce]

I've always thought the Protean scourge was sort of obnoxious.

These guys can be pretty scary and efficient if build up well.

I used one in a campaign and redid his spell selection, adding some PC class levels and even a PrC or two.

The party was hating the fact the was spamming WoC when they tried to hit him- especially with the conjurer's orbs.

Then, the paladin scored a lucky crit.

The table was happy. The guy could bleed. It could be killed…

Then, the bastard split in two and began abusing the action economy.

The party fled.

[RoboEmperor]

Difference between a level 66 wizard and a caster level 38 prismatic dragon is
1. Dragon has massive AC
2. With scintillating scales, has massive touch AC
3. Has massive HP
4. Can oneshot everything with its breath attack
5. Can oneshot everything with its melee attack
6. In the sky, 100% of the time
7. Massive spell resistance. Even with assay resistance and true casting it's tough to beat 86 SR.

On the other hand, epic spell slay seed. Sacrifice 1 level and create a slay spell that overcomes the dragons SR 95% of the time, has a 95% success chance, and quickened. Win the initiative and cast this spell and you win 1st round. Same tactic could be applied to every single epic monster in the game.

Of course then you argue how many craft contingencies the dragon has, and how many epic spells the dragon has, etc.

Anyways, i agree that epic dragons are the scariest as written because spellcasters are the most dangerous opponents in the game.

[Know(Nothing)]

Scariest, or best stats?

I have a villain that has been behind the scenes in all of my campaigns, and never discovered. He's essentially an Alhoon-- an Illithid Lich, that has seen that the beginning and end of time, for every plane in my universe, is cyclical. No matter how powerful a being, even a god, becomes, the restart switch gets hit every single time. Being one of the smartest beings in existence AND having all-of-time as experience, he's figured out how to send his continued consciousness through these loops. It would be tacky to describe the myriad defenses, powers, epic spells, epic allies, connections, and influences he has, but suffice to say he wouldn't ever be found or even known to any being, unless he wanted to.

To me, this is the scariest enemy. What makes my character scary is the combination of terrifying intelligence(Solid Rolls+Illithid+about a hundred other bonuses) with eternal life. A being with that long of an out-look-- longer than even the gods, knows how to plan ahead, and in this case has the intelligence to make sure all the dominoes fall exactly when they are supposed to. The reason this character in particular doesn't run every plane is a matter of mistake. He's been through the cycle so many times and lived so long that he is beyond good and evil and is working only to unhook the multiverse from this infinite repetition.

It can be any being that is immortal and possesses obscenely high mental stats. Hell, take the most unoptimized wreck of a build, but give it eternal life, high Int, and the will to go on? Given enough time that will be an impressive foe, no matter what. It's a less stat-centered way to look at things, but when you extrapolate what a being like that would be capable of, it is truly terrifying.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Really? I'm currently under the impression that since it's CR 66 but only casts at level 38, GWPD < Wizard 66.

There're two distinct possibilities here.

1) Epic spellcasting is in play; there's no functional difference between being sorc 38 and wiz 66 because the only thing that matters is epic spells and the dragon's higher HD count means he gets more of them.

2) Epic spells are not in play; the dragon's higher HD means he has more feats spent on getting better casting and he can -still- cast better, plus all of his impressive racial abilities as a freakin' dragon.

Epic levels are just kinda like that. If you're spellcaster you're not even playing the same game as non-casters anymore, regardless of epic casting, and if you're a non-caster then a 20HD difference still matters, a lot. GW prismatic dragon's got the best of both.

OP might want to explicitly exempt the contents of the epic handbook from this question if he wants a less obvious answer.

[AlanBruce]

The ELH has monsters, but it's just one book. There are, perhaps ten books out there with monsters in them that may have, at most, 10 epic monsters- MM2 has CR all over the place, so it really doesn't count.

I see a bunch of ELH monsters thrown in, but from my experience, rarely do games see these creatures. If ever.

There are so many more interesting creatures out there that don't need to have big numbers next to them to inspire fear. Fluff alone and maybe the original mechanical ability should drive the nail home- without mention Infernals or Abominations.

For me? The Julajimus (MM2).

Huge ape like aberration that hunts you in the middle of the woods at night as his roar can be heard for miles.

You run, duck and hide, hoping to reach town. Be safe.

That's when a cute little squirrel scampers towards you and you take a breather and laugh from the initial shout and relax your guard to pet it.

And then the tiny furry rodent shapeshifts to a 20ft. tall ape faced alien and proceeds to tear you apart horribly. Your screams of agony and pain unheeded in the middle of the woods...

Roll a new character.

[TheMooch]

I think the Phane is a pretty brutal enemy it literally drains a creatures life force to make it stronger. If it gets a couple immortals in there like Elans. It gets really bad.

[Blackhawk748]

A White Dragon played correctly.

Im not even kidding. First off White Dragons have the highest AC for their CR among the base True Dragons (and its by a few points). Secondly they have 4, count them, 4 movement types (flying, burrowing, swimming, and land) and all of them are 30 or more, so have fun escaping. Thirdly they think less like humanoids than any other base True Dragon. Why? Because they are nothing more than Alpha Predators, and they ACT like it. It also helps that for the first hundred years or so of their life (or however long it takes to get to Huge size) White Dragons are not the top of the heap in their area (usually thats Frost Giants and Remorhazs) once they are Huge however they are now king of the north and you will not argue with them. And lastly while they may not be amazing strategic thinkers they are good tactical thinkers and a perfectly capable of setting basic ambushes, usually by popping out of the ground in front of you and shredding you to pieces.

Oh and most White Dragons dont care about anything you have to say to them, because your lunch, and who listens to their lunch?

[Eldan]

Black Ethergaunts cast as level 17 wizards with crazy high intelligence. They are probably my pick. Of course, you can heap more numbers on top of that, but it still casts 9th level spells. Other than that, yeah, dragons.

However, the prismatic dragon is not the worst. There's the time dragon in dragon magazine. It's exactly as it sounds.

[Chester]

What about Balors and Pit Fiends?

I mean, even if you kill a Balor, it kills you right back.

[Kurald Galain]

Scariest enemy? I'm going to throw in my fate for Tucker's Kobolds. They'll likely show up several levels earlier in any campaign than anything that casts ninth-level spells, too, making them scary for longer.

[Blackhawk748]

Scariest enemy? I'm going to throw in my fate for Tucker's Kobolds. They'll likely show up several levels earlier in any campaign than anything that casts ninth-level spells, too, making them scary for longer.

Seconding this. It gets worse when you realize that most of what makes Tucker's Kobolds scary can be applied to a lot of other humanoids.

On an unrelated note, my group has started referring to groups of prepared goblins as Blackhawk's Goblins. And im not allowed to start campaigns with assaults on goblin bases as it takes 4-5 hours to get through the combat :smallbiggrin:

[Auron3991]

Oozes. They could be lurking around any corner, hiding behind any illusionary wall. A small enough one could be hiding in your drink. You won't see them coming, and then suddenly, you're being slowly digested while you struggle futilely to escape. It's enough to give one nightmares.

[Krobar]

A small ooze hiding in a drink? I am so going to use that some day.

[atemu1234]

Ulitharid Illithid Savant 20 - Supposedly CR 30-ish. Properly optimized, can wipe out several parties. At once.

[Madhava]

Stats-wise? I'm going to go with Shar. Because AC 88, SR 50, & always-maximized rolls would be somewhat tough to work around. Or the divine aspect of any one of the greater powers, really.

Granted, Faiths & Pantheons is woefully in need of an update... namely, I remember DR being way out of control in 3.0. And especially so in this book.

If we're talking 3.5 only, then possibly Atropus.

[DarkEternal]

Shadows are pretty damn scary for a CR3. They drain you off all of your life essence and turn you into an abomination of nature once they are done with your husk.


Basilisks too. For a CR4, they pretty much can kill your entire party if you roll subpar and spend the rest of eternity trapped in a damn petrified form, forever very much aware of what's going on around you and unable to do anything about it.

[TypoNinja]

I swear we had a thread for most badly CR'd monsters or something. We ended up with whole lists of terrifying creatures.

I'll always live in terror of the Will o'wisp. Things are just impossible to kill.

[Milo v3]

Basilisks too. For a CR4, they pretty much can kill your entire party if you roll subpar and spend the rest of eternity trapped in a damn petrified form, forever very much aware of what's going on around you and unable to do anything about it.

In old editions did you stay aware from a basilisks petrification? Sounds much harsher than 3.P's.

[DarkEternal]

In old editions did you stay aware from a basilisks petrification? Sounds much harsher than 3.P's.

Honestly, I have no idea. We always played like you were. I remember, once our party was attacked by three or four basilisks. Every member of the group failed the save, but one who constantly rolled good. In the end, the basilisks took him down(a Lurk) by beating him to the ground with better numbers and the rest of the group pretty much helplessly watched as these creatures devoured him in front of us, bit by bit.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

For their CR, Steel Dragons. Higher spellcasting level than CR, loads of Dragon HD, ridiculous SR vs. low level spells (obtained at low CR too)

A Half Fiend Earth Elemental can pretty much insta-gank a non-evil party of HD = its CR due to Blasphemy working based off its insane number of hit dice. Then again once you start adding in templates things get crazy.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I swear we had a thread for most badly CR'd monsters or something. We ended up with whole lists of terrifying creatures.

I'll always live in terror of the Will o'wisp. Things are just impossible to kill.

Found it! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?315230-The-most-unbalanced-monsters-for-each-CR-up-to-20-%28or-so%29) I wish Isamu would come back and update that some more.

[Gnome Alone]

"Turns out it's Man"

[Necroticplague]

I'd elect proteans for this. Thanks to some very poor writng, they have regeneration without a weakness. You know how the tarrasque can at least be killed by a wish? These guys don't have that text. Their ability to assume several extraordinary abilities at once lets them access some ridiculously broken tricks. Grab the the Dead nerves of a Gheden, the Planar Travel of a Blackball, Incorporeal traits, and the Phantom's ability to attack coporeal targets while incorporeal. And that's just off the top of my head.

[atemu1234]

A small ooze hiding in a drink? I am so going to use that some day.

My favorite trap was a pit trap with an illusion covering the top, with a gelatinous ooze at the bottom.

[Graypairofsocks]

Black Ethergaunts cast as level 17 wizards with crazy high intelligence. They are probably my pick. Of course, you can heap more numbers on top of that, but it still casts 9th level spells. Other than that, yeah, dragons.

However, the prismatic dragon is not the worst. There's the time dragon in dragon magazine. It's exactly as it sounds.

A short sample of the things the time dragon gets:
Time Stop every 2d4 rounds at all age groups, the cooldown is reduced 1d4 rounds when they are Adults and to every other round when they reach Great Wyrm age.

Great Wyrm time dragons also are possibly the only stated creature that can travel time(not just time stop).

[HunterOfJello]

A completely insane Sarruhk who just sits around all day building god killing monstrosities all day long. The Sarruhk would presumably have some effective methods of keeping itself safe after their creation and a lot of anti-divination spells on itself 24/7 to keep people from tracking it down.

[kellbyb]

A completely insane Sarruhk who just sits around all day building god killing monstrosities all day long. The Sarruhk would presumably have some effective methods of keeping itself safe after their creation and a lot of anti-divination spells on itself 24/7 to keep people from tracking it down.

That sounds like a wonderful adventure hook.

[Psyren]

Scariest enemy? I'm going to throw in my fate for Tucker's Kobolds. They'll likely show up several levels earlier in any campaign than anything that casts ninth-level spells, too, making them scary for longer.

Just bring a warlock and have him send unlimited swarms into the walls. Or Gaseous Form the fighter and have him slip through the murderholes. Also, Wind Wall or Fickle Winds stops most of their tricks from reaching you while the rogue deals with the traps.

Basically, anything that counters ranged attacks through small openings.

[Stegyre]

Just bring a warlock and have him send unlimited swarms into the walls.
I'm not sure this would work. By RAW, Summon Swarm does not give you any control over the swarm. You can only summon it, whereupon it will attack everything in its area and then attack the closest creature(s) it can reach.

[Psyren]

I'm not sure this would work. By RAW, Summon Swarm does not give you any control over the swarm. You can only summon it, whereupon it will attack everything in its area and then attack the closest creature(s) it can reach.

Right, so summon it such that it is much closer to the murderholes (and/or whatever is on the other side) than it is to the party.

[paperarmor]

Does as written mean unoptimized? Because answers change a lot based on that.

The worst thing I ever came up with was a Drowned Swordsage/Lurking Horror that focused on Setting Sun throws and the high mobility maneuvers with a pimped out Drowning Aura, sadly never got to see play.

Out of the box? probably a Great Wyrm Force Dragon or similar.

[TypoNinja]

Right, so summon it such that it is much closer to the murderholes (and/or whatever is on the other side) than it is to the party.

Better yet, Conjuration/summoning spells don't require line of sight. You can totally summon them right inside in the walls.

[SangoProduction]

:smallconfused:
Well, as for the scariest monster, I would personally say it'd be the ones that can shapeshift, teleport, or are seemingly immortal. Of course achieving the last qualifier is a bit subjective, and it could be achieved though very mundane factors like HD, so perhaps toss that one out. Afterall, if they can shapeshift, you never know where or when they are. They could be your very party member who conspired with the DM 15 weeks ago to be a shapeshifter to infiltrate the party and learn everything before they launch their attack. Just as well, those that can teleport means that you are essentially safe no where, even when you'd think there's no way in, or surrounded by hundreds of guards.
Of course, these aren't problems for spell casters, as true seeing says hello, so does dimension anchor....but if your party didn't prepare those spells, or even better, didn't have them, then it could be quite terrifying.

As for most powerful monster, you could probably point to any of the epic ones and call it a day.

[The Grue]

When I said scariest, I meant what monster do yall think should have the highest CR.

Pun-Pun, obviously.

[Almagesto]

OK, just read Tucker's Kobolds entry in Dragon Magazine... scary looking little critters. I would use those tactics with othr humanoids as well, maybe retaining the name for flavor.

[thematgreen]

Scariest, or best stats?

I have a villain that has been behind the scenes in all of my campaigns, and never discovered. He's essentially an Alhoon-- an Illithid Lich, *snip*.

Ha! My overarching villain is a Lich too! He doesn't have the crazy power yours does (though he isn't a slouch) but he has an incredible understanding of "human" nature, so to speak. He's incredibly evil, but the people of his nation love him without magical compulsion. They all know he is a lich, he doesn't bother hiding the fact, but everyone has a job, has money, food, and shelter. Every single person would lay down their lives for him and every single person is sent to the military camps for training for two years. Those that choose to stay end up around 5th to 7th level of various classes, those that leave after training are still regarded respectfully, since a nation cannot survive without farmers, bakers, builders, etc.

So if he does so much good for his people why is he evil? Because he violently attacks everyone outside of his nation for power, spell components, and slaves. His goal is to eventually have enough people to sacrafice them all at once in a massive spell that will fuel his ascension into godhood, and not little godhood, but full blow laugh in Vecnas face, unable to be reversed godhood, fueled by the hundreds of thousands souls of those who venerate and willfully give up their lives for their beloved master.