Disciple of Tenser: A Guide to Maximum Tenser's Floating Disk Utility [Archive]

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Jowgen

2014-11-29, 01:16 AM

Disciples of Tenser: A Guide to Tenser's Floating Disk utility

It's a simple enough little spell. Wizards tend to be frail and small of stature, always in need of someone or something to carry the heavy things for them. So that's what they use it for. But it can be much more than that. It can be an extension of your very self, and a powerful one at that... if you know how to use it.

First off, the Spell Itself:

Tenser's Floating Disk
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: 3-ft.-diameter disk of force
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You create a slightly concave, circular plane of force that follows you about and carries loads for you. The disk is 3 feet in diameter and 1 inch deep at its center. It can hold 100 pounds of weight per caster level. (If used to transport a liquid, its capacity is 2 gallons.) The disk floats approximately 3 feet above the ground at all times and remains level. It floats along horizontally within spell range and will accompany you at a rate of no more than your normal speed each round. If not otherwise directed, it maintains a constant interval of 5 feet between itself and you. The disk winks out of existence when the spell duration expires. The disk also winks out if you move beyond range or try to take the disk more than 3 feet away from the surface beneath it. When the disk winks out, whatever it was supporting falls to the surface beneath it.

The spell is designed to help a character haul bulky things around for extended periods of time, but for a dedicated Disciple of Tenser (DoT for short), that is the least of it's miraculous powers. To harness the true awesome of this force-spell of force-spells, an aspiring DoT needs but a simple tool:

DoT's bread and butter: The Talisman of the Disk, from p. 188 of the Magic Item Compendium.

For a mere 500 gold, this held command activated treasure allows you to create a floating disk at caster level 3, plus additional carrying capacity for characters with strength-bonus items. The real kicker on this: you can do this at will. No charges per day, and most importantly: no limitation on how many disks you can have at a time. Still, keep a spare...

Law's of the DoT: The mays, may-nots and maybes of the Floating Disk

For all their awesome powers, DoT's are bound by the cosmic law of the mighty RAW. A mighty being known only as the "Doon-Jon Mah's Taa" may bend or break these laws to the DoT's favour... or may twist to the DoT's dismay. Therefore, a DoT is advised to be mindful of the following.

1. "Ground" is a broad term in D&D, often used interchangably with "floor" and "surface". "Ground" can be made out of of anything, as the elemental plane of fire has "ground" made of compressed plates of ever-shifting flame, and DMG talks about "floors" made out of all kinds of materials (even walls of force). Judging by the "Standing in Tight Quarters" rule from page 30 of the DMG, the rules of lying prone, falling, and the descriptions of different form of ground for the purposes of the track skill, any surface that a creature can fight on, fall onto, lie prone on and/or leave tracks on on qualifies as "ground" for that creature.
Bottomline: Defining "Ground" as anything other than "a given solid horizontal surface" results in a myriad of inconsistencies across different rule-sets.

2. The extent to which a floating disk can be controlled based on the "otherwise directed" clause has been the topic of much debate. For the purposes of this mini-guide, I will be taking the conservative stance that the disk is straight up incapable of moving in any direction unless the DoT is moving in that direction, being otherwise limited to be stationary. "Maintain relative distance" and "Stay still" are basically the two commands it can execute .

3. Conversely, the disk is impervious to being moved by anyone or anything baring the DoT's directions or movement, as it is explicitly stated to stay 3 ft off the ground and capable of maintaining a constant distance to the caster. The world's strongest ogre would at best sink into the ground trying to lift it and not even a commoner-railgun type effect could move it sideways.

4. The disk's ability to overcome obstacles is not defined and must thusly be assumed to be minimal at best. The Disk could be expected to maneuver around a corner or tree as part of its ability to "follow/accompany", but it can not exert any physical force on external things, just as the disk itself can't be moved by external force. In short, the Disk is not a battering ram and will not break down any straight barrier hindering it from accompanying the DoT. Unless specifically told by the DoT, the disk will under no circumstances attempt any form of movement that it is not stated to be capable of performing, especially if that activity would cause it to "wink" out.

5. When the disk moves, it does so instantaneously, with no delay to its movement or variability to the horizontal distance between it and the caster at any point in time. It is an active spell effect, it doesn't care about initiative.

6. The disk is an Evocation (Force) effect, meaning it is not strictly defined as an object, but it does extend into the etheral plane and is immune to all damage. The only way to "destroy" it is via the use of specialized magic (e.g. dispelling/disjunction/forceward), or by meeting one the conditions that are stated to cause it to "wink out" (e.g. overburdening).

The DoT's might: The secrets you're here to learn

Trick 1: Disk Jumping

This trick requires a single floating disk and was originally conceived by Sith_Happens (http://"http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?57091-Sith_Happens").

Step 1: Create your disk and direct it to remain still so you can hop onto it and stand proud.
Step 2: Direct your disk to maintain a distance of 0 ft between itself and you. Specify that you mean distance on a 2-dimensional horizontal, if your Dungeon Master requires.
Step 3: Jump off the disk in any desired direction. The disk will move to maintain the distance without delay, coming to be under your feet when you land.
Step 4: Repeat step 3 until you have moved your speed for the round, having avoided all pressure plates and difficult terrain.

Notes: This trick works based on how the disk maintains a perfect distance and the rules do not limit how many jump checks you can do as part of your movement for a round. Keep in mind that a DM may require a minimum jumping distance you need to clear for each jump (possible 1, 1.5, 3 or 5 ft) and that, unless you have at least 1 rank in jump, you must beat the jump DC by 5 or fall prone. Be ware of the DCs for standing jumps, as each jump is likely to count as such.

Trick 2: Tenser's Table

Your disk is nigh-indestructible and hovers 3 ft off the ground. Depending on your size, you should be able to stand, sit or lie prone underneath your disk; potentially gaining cover bonuses to AC and saves against certain attacks. In this it is essentially a miniature version of the Magic Item Compendium's "Overhead Shield" item's effect.

If you're tiny or smaller size, the disk can provide total cover against attacks from above; e.g a Dragon doing a fly-by attack or catapult missiles.
If you're small you should be able to stand under the disk without much trouble, gaining cover or possibly improved cover against attacks from above without penalty.
If you're medium, you will likely have to fall prone (taking all associated penalties and benefits) in order to take cover under the disk, and simply gain regular cover. Adding more disks may well improve this cover.

Notes: the mileage of this trick varies widely depending on combat scenario. As D&D does not have any rules that would allow one to translate damage into kinetic impact and thus weight for the purpose of the disk's limitation, no single attack from above should be able to make the disk wink out; but a sufficiently heavy enemy could simply provoke an AoO to enter your square and place its weight upon the disk as part of some action (e.g. grapple?). This is particularity bad of the enemy is big give enough to have Crush (Ex).

Trick 3: Tenser's Carriage

If you're travelling overland for long distances, some floating disks can really speed up your travel. We already know from trick 1 that it can let you ignore difficult terrain, but it can also increase your whole party's mobility.

Step 1: Be the fastest member on your party, ideally without the need to sleep, eat, rest or take non-lethal damage. If not, at least be someone with a familiar capable of activating command word items (e.g. Raven), so they can do the lifting for you.
Step 2: Create a number of disks for your party to sit/lounge upon. Hell, they could even pitch tents if they can board-over the gaps between disks.
Step 3: Have the entire party travel at your speed. Casters can "rest" to regain spells as you cart them along towards your destination.

Note: Every 3 hours of travel, you will need to remake the carriage. You may not be able to hustle, depending on what your DM deems to be your "normal speed"/round.

Trick 4: Tenser Anchor

You can use the Disk to anchor yourself against external forces trying to move you, or prevent something external from being moved. If you ever find yourself in need of standing in a Hurricane without risk of getting blown away, or want to stand at the bottom of a raging river for some reason, a disk or two (and maybe some means to tie yourself to them) can keep you where you are. Alternatively, place it in front of an a door that you don't want opened, and laugh as people push and push but are eventually forced to resort to breaking it down.

Step 1: create a disk within your reach with the command of staying stationary.
Step 2: hold into the disk with your hands, legs or with whatever aids you feel are appropriate.
Step 3: hold on tight as the disk keeps you from being moved.

or

Step 1: determine the direction and manner in which any given thing might be about to move, but you don't want it to move
Step 2: create a number of disks in contact with the thing in question, placing them so that the undesired movement would be stopped by the disk.
Step 3: sit back as the thing you don't want to move in a certain way can't move that way due to unmovable force disks.

Note: you may be able to command the disk to only move when you move in a certain direction, in which case you can potentially propell yourself forward while anchored to the disk, allowing you to move through rivers/hurricanes. Also, if the thing you don't want to move is a creature, see Tenser's prison below for more detail.

Trick 5: Tenser's Hiccup

Originally suggested by Auron3991. This simple trick relies upon holding an action to create a tenser's floating disk to hinder an enemy, usually when they're charging.

Step 1: Ready an action to activate the talisman of the disk in response to an enemy charging at you or another party member within 30 ft of you.
Step 2: When the enemy charges, activate the talisman to create a disk in their path.
Step 3: The enemy's charge is interrupted, as there is now an "obstacle" in the charging character's path, meaning the charging prerequisites are no longer met.

Notes: Charging is the most obvious enemy action to uses Tenser's Hiccup against, but it need not be the only one. Create the disk in the path of an enemy using the run-action to try and flee from battle. You may be able to create a disk to interrupt a Coup De Grace against an ally who is helpless, e.g. by creating the disk above their neck when it is about to be severed; although this is deep within DM-adjudication territory.

Trick 6: Tenser's Tower

This trick requires up to 10 Disks, meaning that with a talisman, it takes 1 minute to set up.

Step 1: Create a Disk.
Step 2: Create another disk atop of it; which works unless your DM is very limiting in his personal definition of "ground" and not allowing other solid surfaces a character can stand/lie/fight upon to qualify as such.
Step 3: repeat step 2 until you have a tower of floating disks up to 30 ft high, which you should be able to climb with relative ease. Be ware that the bottom disk winks out with all the others if you try to go higher.
Step 4 (optional): fight at range from atop your Tenser's Tower, moving about as with normal disk jumping, but with the advantage of standing atop a perfectly mobile 30 ft structure melee-enemies will have trouble climbing.

Note: Should you find yourself in melee combat while atop your Tenser's Tower, you may well qualify for a +1 to attacks thanks to having the high ground (thanks to Demidos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?55564-Demidos) for pointing this out). This may give reason to make shorter Tenser's Tower in certain situations.

Alos, you can get bonuses to spotting enemies in the distance for being higher up. Stronghold builder's guidebook lists a +1 spot bonus per 10 ft of height, measured at eye-level; and Stormwrack has rules for spotting things at large distances from a vantage point.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/62045193/Tenser%27s%20Tower.png

Trick 7: Tenser's Bunker

This trick combines Tenser's Tower and Tenser's Table for maximum defense. The basic idea is to create a bunker-like structure comprised of tenser's towers in a manner than either prevents or at least hinders enemy creatures in getting within melee range of you, or target you with ranged attacks from above. This trick can be very time consuming depending on how big of a Tenser's Bunker you want to create. Landbased small or smaller enemies will not be hindered by the Bunker, as they can simply walker under the disk. Sufficiently heavy enemies can break through by overburdening the disks with their weight, but this costs them actions and requires them to understand how the disks work (i.e. Spellcraft check).

Step 1: Create a field of disks around yourself. Disk-to-disk proximity should be set at less than half the space occupied by any given creature you expect to fight (e.g. less than 2.5 ft for medium, less than 5 for large, etc).
Step 2: Stack disks atop the disks composing the field, creating several Tenser's Towers. The inner-most towers should ideally be stacked at an inwards angle as to create a ceiling above yourself. Check with your DM as to what percentage of a disk needs to have a solid surface directly below it to determine stacking agle.
Step 3: Continue to layer the disks until you are statisfied with the volume and structure of your tenser's bunker.
Step 4a: Fight off the incoming enemy forces. Medium creatures will be subject to squeezing rules and have to crawl through the disks to get to you, slowing them considerably and giving you a significant advantage. Large or larger enemies will simply be incapable of getting into melee range, forcing them to use ranged attack methods. Flying enemies of any varieties will have to either land or at drop to about 30 ft of altitiude to have any chance of getting to you, as the layers of disks above block all line of effect.

SPECIAL STEP: It is quite possible that your tenser's bunker need not be stationary. If your DM has no issue with Disks "accompanying" while in front of you, rather than only behind or on level with you, you can move the Bunker with you as you wade into battle. Think of it as pushing a shopping cart rather than dragging one behind you. I have found no rule text that either supports or opposes this; but I did find a relevant image: Dragon Magazine issue 330 on page 50. I can't post the image, but it contains a wizard walking while having a loot-laden floating disk hovering in front of himself. It's not much, but pointing at a Dragon Magazine and going "but the wizard in the picture is doing it" is better than nothing.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/62045193/48%20disk%20tenser%27s%20bunker.png

Trick 8: Tenser's Prison

This is the inverse of Tenser's Bunker. You have brought the large-sized enemy down, but rather than finishing him off, you want to talk to them after they get up. Sadly, you don't have any manacles or things of the sort. Luckily, you have a few minutes to make a make-shift force-cage of sorts.

Step 1: Create a circle of Floating disks neatly packed around your helpless large or larger enemy.
Step 2: Stack disks at an inward angle to create a dome/cone of disks above your enemy. Make this as steep an angle as possible, to hopefully prevent the enemy from getting up. As living creatures can not constitute as "ground", you can hopefully stack some disks directly atop the enemy for minimum time expenditure and maximum movement restriction.
Step 3: The enemy wakes up but can not escape. Occupying a 10 ft cube, he can not squeeze through any spaces less than 5-ft wide. He can not force the disk's upwards or sideways, so it is impossible to break out that way. His only means of escape is to get the disks to wink out by placing enough weight on them, but this may well be impossible depending on how how he is lying and how constrained he is by the disks.
Step 4: If you've done everything right, you should have around 2 hours to talk to your completely immobilized enemy, or do whatever else you want to do.

Note: It is unlikely, but you may find yourself in a scenario where Tenser's Prison only requires a single disk and you can thus use it in combat. If a large enemy falls prone for any reason, and the central portion of his body is lying flat and is less than 3 but more than 2 ft thick, creating a single disk over this central body portion may be enough to keep him from getting up or even crawling away. Not likely at all, and very DM-dependent, but something to keep in mind.
Also, theoretically, Tenser's Prison can contain large or larger incorporeal enemies. This requires creating a layer of disks underneath the enemy (or moving the enemy onto the disk somehow) and then creating the prison around him as normal. Being a large creature, and being normally affected by force effects, it should not be able to escape any better than a corporeal large enemy in a tenser's prison. I do, however, severely doubt that this will ever be an option anywhere; for obvious reasons.

Trick 9: Tenser's Feather (disclaimer: this semi-cheesy trick might be considered broken.)

Tenser's Floating Disk floats. It has to stay 3 ft off the ground at all times, but it is nonetheless in a constant state of levitation. No matter how much you load onto the disk (up to its self-set limit), none of that weight is transferred onto the "ground" beneath it. I.e. anything placed upon the disk is weightless in relation to the ground beneath the disk. As it is nigh impossible to define "ground" as anything other than "solid horizontal surface" without causing a bunch of discrepancies in the rules, this opens up the door to the cheesiest of the DoT's powers. On the simple side of things, you can use Disk jumping to cross the thinnest of ice or ignore any pittrap, but with the tiniest bit of supplemental magic, you've got yourself a power to be reconned with.

Step 1: Take a thin sheet of solid but ideally durable material, 3 ft in diamater, ideally less than 5 lb in weight.
Step 2: Use any given low-level effect that allows you to move about objects from a distance and lift the sheet up to float horizontally in mid-air. Magehand works well, Unseen Servant is a good upgrade.
Step 3: Create your disk above the airborne 3-ft sheet of solid material, possible thanks to "being able to support weight" never being mentioned as a prerequisite for "ground".
Step 4: Climb onto your disk. As your weight is placed upon the disk but the disk places no weight upon the sheet, the sheet remains aloft as per the stipulations of the effect you're using to move it about.
Step 5: Use the Mage Hand type effect to move about the sheet, thusly the disk and therefore yourself. Enjoy slow but cheap perfect maneuverability flight.

Note: With a measure of ingenuity, it might well be possible to combine Tenser's Feather with any of the other tricks for added benefit.

Trick 10: Tenser's Probe

The Tenser's Probe is simply a disk that the Disciple keeps a choice number of feat ahead of him as he moves through a precarious area. This straight-forward naturally trick relies on the DM agreeing that the Disk can accompany while maintaining it's distance ahead of the Disciple. The benefits are as follows:

1. Detect anti-magic fields and false floors. If the disk winks out for no discernable reason, it is safe to assume that either a) the disk has just entered an anti-magic field, or b) the floor ahead is illusiory. In either case, more careful investigation is warranted.
2. Trigger traps. Certain traps may be triggered by the proximity, motion or magical aura of the disk, and thus go off while the Disciple is (hopefully) out of range. If the Disciple wishes to trigger traps that only respond to (living) creatures, they could do so by e.g. knocking a small animal like a rat unconscious and placing it on the disk as bait. Also, if the Disciple wishes to address trip-wires and pressure plates as well, throwing a net with weights at its corners over the disk so that the weights drag on the floor would work.

Jermz

2014-11-29, 02:15 AM

Very cool tricks!

Personally, I wouldn't allow the tower tricks, as I don't classify another disk as 'ground', and I don't consider myself a particularly strict RAW DM. Still, in this case it seems to me that ground means a surface that you walk on, and not some surface that one happens to be standing on - regardless of size/diameter. In my point of view, this would be excessive lenience on the part of the DM to allow, but hey, to each his own.

I don't have any or my own to add at the moment, but I'm sure that there are plenty more nifty tricks.

(Un)Inspired

2014-11-29, 02:28 AM

What does it mean for something to be the ground?

Oracle_of_Void

2014-11-29, 03:49 AM

What does it mean for something to be the ground?

Well, since ground is not a term defined by the game, so we have to assume that the the word's definition is the real world's, as in, "the surface of the earth, the soil that is on or under the surface of the earth" according to Merriam-Webster. Of course, you could say that a floating disk could metaphorically be the ground, but that's very subjective whether that should be the basis for a game ruling.

Troacctid

2014-11-29, 03:57 AM

Ravens, with their power of speech, can activate command-word items. So give your Talisman of the Disk to your raven familiar and have it make a floating disk for you. It will follow the raven around wherever it flies. Now simply sit on top of the disk and enjoy your free movement while your familiar chauffeurs you around at its 40-foot flight speed.

For even better results, use an imp or quasit familiar--they have a flight speed of 50 feet with perfect maneuverability, and they can turn invisible at will, so nobody will be able to see who's controlling the disk.

(Un)Inspired

2014-11-29, 04:39 AM

Well, since ground is not a term defined by the game, so we have to assume that the the word's definition is the real world's, as in, "the surface of the earth, the soil that is on or under the surface of the earth" according to Merriam-Webster. Of course, you could say that a floating disk could metaphorically be the ground, but that's very subjective whether that should be the basis for a game ruling.

What if the game you're playing in doesn't take place on earth?

Does the definition of ground change depending on what planet someone is on? How do we arrive at the new definition?

Inevitability

2014-11-29, 08:45 AM

I wonder... what would happen if you use this spell on the plane of air?

Troacctid

2014-11-29, 11:37 AM

What if the game you're playing in doesn't take place on earth?

Does the definition of ground change depending on what planet someone is on? How do we arrive at the new definition?

Lowercase-E "earth", not Planet Earth.

(Un)Inspired

2014-11-29, 11:43 AM

Lowercase-E "earth", not Planet Earth.

In that case you can't cast it on the first story of a house that doesn't have a dirt floor? That doesn't seem right to me.

Blackhawk748

2014-11-29, 11:51 AM

I totally want to make a Tenser's Tower Mage, as i have DM who would probably allow it because it is silly. Then ill have my Raven familiar tow me around as i nuke everything from my mobile mages tower cackling madly. This is gonna be fun.

In that case you can't cast it on the first story of a house that doesn't have a dirt floor? That doesn't seem right to me.

And this is a valid point, can i not have my disc follow me up a staircase in a fortress or in the Inn? Too strict a reading on ground will cause some serious unintended consequences.

Auron3991

2014-11-29, 12:09 PM

Hold action, cast Tenser's Disk in response to melee brute's charge attempt. This depends on your DM, but suddenly running into 100 pounds of resistance concentrated in a 1 inch thick section during a charge tends to have a way of messing with your day.

Tarlek Flamehai

2014-11-29, 12:44 PM

I would probably dictate the "ground" for this spell to be matter in a solid state at least as wide as the disc. This would enable it to float over the surface of loose sand/snow (and over floors, stairs, roofs) , but eliminate the possibility of it floating over force effects.

(Un)Inspired

2014-11-29, 01:02 PM

Jowgen

2014-11-29, 03:09 PM

-scrubbed-

Jowgen

2014-11-30, 01:27 PM

I have up-dated the section on "ground" with the finding from my most recent look into the matter.:smallsmile:

Bunch of other changes have also been made, listed in the OP's changelog

Jowgen

2014-12-26, 05:13 AM

PSA: As far as I can tell, Handbook is now finished. Hope people enjoy :smallsmile:

TheBrassDuke

2015-04-15, 12:37 PM

Psyren

2015-04-15, 03:02 PM

I dont think you can stack them on top of one another: "3 feet above the ground at all times" means you can't go any higher. So I don't think the tower and prison would necessarily work (plus they would take a lot of actions to build anyway.). Some of the other stuff, like readying an action to obstruct someone's charge, I think should be okay though. (That wouldn't be an auto-fail though, because Jumping over your disc doesn't need a separate action.)

For interrupting a CDG, you would at most give your ally cover.

bekeleven

2015-04-15, 04:08 PM

Imprisoning a prone enemy with a single disk above his chest wouldn't work, since that square of space is occupied, and thus conjurations can't be targeted there.

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

Well, maybe if your DM takes a less strict reading of "open location", reading it merely as a repeat of the "can't telefrag" rule from before.

Psyren

2015-04-15, 04:12 PM

Well, floating disk is an evocation so there's a bit of a gray area there.

Jowgen

2015-04-15, 05:32 PM

Frankly, I've seen Tenser's Floating Disk used as a means to carry its caster several times in my career, as the spell doesn't specifically state you don't have to be mobile for the disk to move. You can direct it to move on command, and it will carry you horizontally wherever you wish to go for the duration. Don't need a familiar to do that for you.

Read it over again. Yeah, unless otherwise specified it stays close, yada yada. I've had a few DMs who let us ride these things many places. It's not like it's any more broken when used like this.

Even a strict DM would find it difficult to argue that you can direct it to carriage you wherever you wish within the limits of the spell.

It's one of those frequent debate things, so for this guide I went with the most conservative option, so that everything in here would fly at most tables.

I dont think you can stack them on top of one another: "3 feet above the ground at all times" means you can't go any higher. So I don't think the tower and prison would necessarily work (plus they would take a lot of actions to build anyway.). Some of the other stuff, like readying an action to obstruct someone's charge, I think should be okay though. (That wouldn't be an auto-fail though, because Jumping over your disc doesn't need a separate action.)

For interrupting a CDG, you would at most give your ally cover.

Whether you can stack them hinges on the definition of "ground". There is no way to define "ground" in the context of the rules in a way that would not permit disk-stacking.

I talk about this under the first point of the "Rules of the Disk" spoiler. "Ground", "floor" and "surface" are often used interchangeably (even in Floating Disk's spell description), and there is a lot of rules text that deals with things related to ground/floor/surface; including but not limited to: Standing in Tight Quarters (DMG p 30), rules of Lying Prone, rules for falling, and the rules for tracking. When taking all of this together, the only way for the rules to function in a coherent non-disfunctional manner is if one defines "ground" as any surface that a creature can fight on, fall onto, lie prone on and/or be tracked over qualifies as "ground" for that creature.

As for interrupting a CDG, I agree that it's not really effective, although in some circumstances or with some permissive DM's it might see use. *shrug*

Imprisoning a prone enemy with a single disk above his chest wouldn't work, since that square of space is occupied, and thus conjurations can't be targeted there.

Well, maybe if your DM takes a less strict reading of "open location", reading it merely as a repeat of the "can't telefrag" rule from before.

As Psyren said, floating Disk is an evocation. Even if creating it in an opposing creature's space is off limits, nothing stops you from directing it there after the fact while the creature is helpless.

Psyren

2015-04-15, 06:50 PM

(Un)Inspired

2015-04-15, 06:55 PM

TheBrassDuke

2015-04-15, 07:10 PM

It's one of those frequent debate things, so for this guide I went with the most conservative option, so that everything in here would fly at most tables.

Fair enough, but I'm sure it should fly at any table. There's really nothing to debate by RAW.

Jowgen

2015-04-15, 07:33 PM

But the fact that there is no game definition for "ground" means the GM has to define it. They could just as easily reject your particular interpretation as accept it, and several of the tricks here hinge on that ruling going your way.

This is the problem I see. When something isn't clearly outlined in game it's hard to tell how a DM is gonna rule on it.

Building a combat strategy on a ruling that you can't count on is risky. Risky Business. Tom Cruise.

It is a grey area, but I think a very well-arguable one. At the simplest level, the definition of the Prone condition is "A prone creature is lying flat on the ground", so if the DM were to rule that the surface of a disk doesn't qualify as "ground", then it would be impossible to lie prone on it. There are a myriad of dysfunctions like this that one could point to to argue for disk-stacking.

Obviously, a DM can simply say "Don't care, not allowing you to do that"; but that applies to literally everything in the game.

Psyren

2015-04-15, 08:57 PM

It is a grey area, but I think a very well-arguable one. At the simplest level, the definition of the Prone condition is "A prone creature is lying flat on the ground", so if the DM were to rule that the surface of a disk doesn't qualify as "ground", then it would be impossible to lie prone on it. There are a myriad of dysfunctions like this that one could point to to argue for disk-stacking.

Amusingly enough, the spell says nothing about being able to lie prone on it. So your hypothetical DM might say "By Jove, you're absolutely right! You can never lie down on your floating disk ever again! Next!"

(And actually, considering that it is 3ft. in diameter, lying prone on it would at the very least - for a medium creature anyway - be pretty uncomfortable.)

atemu1234

2015-04-15, 09:06 PM

This is beautiful [single tear].

jiriku

2015-04-27, 01:00 AM

A few general-purpose uses for the spell come to my mind, based on its ability to store 2 gallons of liquid or powder. Importantly, the disk "floats horizontally" and "remains level". Thus, you have a broad, shallow tray that you can take over the roughest terrain without spilling a drop. You can dump the contents of the tray at any time simply by ordering to go up (it rises to 3 ft and then vanishes).

* Minor creation is infamous for its ability to produce gallons of expensive poisons. A disk can serve as a receptacle and spill-proof delivery method for the poison. Command the disk to enter an enemy's square and go straight up. It winks out, dumping the poison in their square.
* Likewise you can use it as a delivery mechanism for 2 gallons of acid, dust of sneezing and choking, burning oil, or any other unpleasant substance, using the same method described above. Water to acid can get you lots of cheap acid.
* Pour water into it and you have the druid focus for the scrying spell. Make it holy water instead and that's the cleric focus. Make it 1,000 gp of quicksilver, and perhaps you could cajole your DM into letting that count for the arcane focus requirement (it's not 2x4, but the area of a 3-ft disk is actually larger than that of a 2x4 rectangle. Quicksilver is not silver, but it is reflective and legend ascribes magical properties to it, so it could be a reasonable substitute).
* Pour black sand into it and stand on it if you are a necropolitan. If you have Medium or smaller undead under your command and they are injured, order them to stand on it. Enjoy your free fast healing. If you have prisoners who need to go away permanently, bind them up and prop them on that sand. In a few minutes you'll have lots of extra black sand, plus there's no body to arouse uncomfortable questions or be raised from the dead later.
* Use it as a portable light source filled with flaming oil or pitch, or just a stack of firewood, to have light in a dungeon while keeping your hands free. Doubles as a way to set a square on fire in an emergency. Conveniently, you can send the light source ahead of you out to close range to safely extend your range of vision.

Other general uses that exploit its remote control nature:
* With celerity + tenser's floating disk, you insert a safe landing platform when allies are in the act of falling into one of the classic pit-trap-with-poisoned-spikes. Falling damage may still be in order but it's something at least.
* Use it to block a door. It is made of force and is absolutely unmovable by external forces, so if lodged against a door it will 100% certain prevent that door from being opened unless the combined weight of the door plus whoever is trying to push it open exceeds the carry capacity of the disk.
* Use multiple disks during combat to tactically position objects that have silence, darkness, fire seeds, or similar effects placed on them. Enemies may try to grab these objects and use them against you -- fire trap, sepia snake sigil, and glyph of warding say hello.
* Place a portable hole or enveloping pit on it, put a hatch over the hole, and you have a mobile foxhole that party members can hide in or use as a sniping position.

Endarire

2015-04-27, 04:46 AM

Tenser's Feather is just brilliant! All these years of D&D and finally someone found how to make a probably rules-legal perfect flight from level 1!

Segev

2015-04-27, 04:01 PM

Using the interpretation of the disk's movement capabilities wrt the caster presented in this thread, one could still use the birdcage-travel option.

Most straight-forward method would be to construct a device which rests on the disk, but holds you in place a foot or more away from it (a well-balanced platform with a good counter-weight for you that extends beyond the disk's radius would work, just so long as you're standing or sitting without the disk beneath you).

While you are 1 or more feet away from the disk, order it to approach you and maintain a distance of 0 ft.

Its motion will push the platform or chair on which you're standing or sitting forward at the rate it moves forward.

The alternative hinges on your ability to give your familiar the spell. I can't recall off hand if the standard share spells ability would cover this. But assuming you can make him "the caster" for purposes of the spell maintaining distance, you can do this with a simple birdcage on a 10 ft. pole. Hold it out and have your familiar order the disk to approach while your'e standing on it, holding the pole. You can even steer just by repositioning the birdcage relative to the disk.

jiriku

2015-04-27, 07:17 PM

Tenser's Feather is just brilliant! All these years of D&D and finally someone found how to make a probably rules-legal perfect flight from level 1!

Ugh. I wouldn't call it brilliant. Yes, you can parse semantics until it's difficult to disagree with the idea, but try walking into any crowd of ordinary people while brandishing a big sheet of aluminum foil and telling them that it's "the ground" simply because you're holding it horizontally. Soon the nice men in white coats will come take you away and give you a pretty white jacket with wrap-around sleeves. We'd garner more respect for the optimization community if we steer clear of such dubious interpretations.

Jowgen

2015-04-28, 03:23 AM

This is beautiful [single tear].

Why thank you, kind sir. :smallredface:

Amusingly enough, the spell says nothing about being able to lie prone on it. So your hypothetical DM might say "By Jove, you're absolutely right! You can never lie down on your floating disk ever again! Next!"

(And actually, considering that it is 3ft. in diameter, lying prone on it would at the very least - for a medium creature anyway - be pretty uncomfortable.)

Maybe one of these days, RAW and Common sense will finally be able to reconcile after their long and painful divorce all those years (3.14-seconds after the PHB was released) ago :smalltongue:

* Minor creation is infamous for its ability to produce gallons of expensive poisons. A disk can serve as a receptacle and spill-proof delivery method for the poison. Command the disk to enter an enemy's square and go straight up. It winks out, dumping the poison in their square.
* Likewise you can use it as a delivery mechanism for 2 gallons of acid, dust of sneezing and choking, burning oil, or any other unpleasant substance, using the same method described above. Water to acid can get you lots of cheap acid.

This relies on a) being able to direct the disk to move without the caster moving, and b) being allowed to have the disk move into a non-helpless enemy creature's square. Neither is utterly out-landish or explcitly forbidden, but they fall into permissive-DM territory. For the purpose of this guide, I prefer to stick to things that are clear in the rules (or can at least have enough back-up to be argued to death for :smalltongue:). But, if those two or either are allowed, then this does indeed open up some nice additional options to explore.

* Pour water into it and you have the druid focus for the scrying spell. Make it holy water instead and that's the cleric focus. Make it 1,000 gp of quicksilver, and perhaps you could cajole your DM into letting that count for the arcane focus requirement (it's not 2x4, but the area of a 3-ft disk is actually larger than that of a 2x4 rectangle. Quicksilver is not silver, but it is reflective and legend ascribes magical properties to it, so it could be a reasonable substitute).

Seems reasonable, just doesn't strike me as quite useful enough to be included :smallconfused:

* Pour black sand into it and stand on it if you are a necropolitan. If you have Medium or smaller undead under your command and they are injured, order them to stand on it. Enjoy your free fast healing. If you have prisoners who need to go away permanently, bind them up and prop them on that sand. In a few minutes you'll have lots of extra black sand, plus there's no body to arouse uncomfortable questions or be raised from the dead later.

Ah yes, the ever abuseable black-sand... I do suppose the Disk adds something to it's shenanigan-repertoire, but considering how big of a repertoire it is in itself...

* Use it as a portable light source filled with flaming oil or pitch, or just a stack of firewood, to have light in a dungeon while keeping your hands free. Doubles as a way to set a square on fire in an emergency. Conveniently, you can send the light source ahead of you out to close range to safely extend your range of vision.

I can see this being nice for dramatic effects, but with the large variety of cheap permanent light-sources available (e.g. Liquid Sunlight), it doesn't quite seem that useful. As for setting things on fire with burning oil, I do suppose there is some potential there. I shall consider adding a "Tenser's Hazard" in the sense of it serving as a delivery mechanism for dangerous/volatile things in tactical situations.

* With celerity + tenser's floating disk, you insert a safe landing platform when allies are in the act of falling into one of the classic pit-trap-with-poisoned-spikes. Falling damage may still be in order but it's something at least.

Seems like there'd be serious practical line of effect issues with getting the disk set up here, so I don't quite see the value.

* Use it to block a door. It is made of force and is absolutely unmovable by external forces, so if lodged against a door it will 100% certain prevent that door from being opened unless the combined weight of the door plus whoever is trying to push it open exceeds the carry capacity of the disk.

... This is a brilliant addition to Tenser's Anchor. I shall add it at the soonest opportunity. :smallsmile:

* Use multiple disks during combat to tactically position objects that have silence, darkness, fire seeds, or similar effects placed on them. Enemies may try to grab these objects and use them against you -- fire trap, sepia snake sigil, and glyph of warding say hello.

I can see the idea working, but it again largely dependent on being allowed to send the disk's scurrying about within range, which again requires a somewhat permissive-DM

* Place a portable hole or enveloping pit on it, put a hatch over the hole, and you have a mobile foxhole that party members can hide in or use as a sniping position.

That is a nice combo, provided the DM doesn't take issue with the concave nature of the disk. I'll keep it in mind, might be able to fit it into a potential future trick.

Tenser's Feather is just brilliant! All these years of D&D and finally someone found how to make a probably rules-legal perfect flight from level 1!

"Brilliant" seems like a bit of a stretch tbh. "Innovative" or "Uncanny" perhaps, but no more... :smallredface:

Using the interpretation of the disk's movement capabilities wrt the caster presented in this thread, one could still use the birdcage-travel option.

Most straight-forward method would be to construct a device which rests on the disk, but holds you in place a foot or more away from it (a well-balanced platform with a good counter-weight for you that extends beyond the disk's radius would work, just so long as you're standing or sitting without the disk beneath you).

While you are 1 or more feet away from the disk, order it to approach you and maintain a distance of 0 ft.

Its motion will push the platform or chair on which you're standing or sitting forward at the rate it moves forward.

The alternative hinges on your ability to give your familiar the spell. I can't recall off hand if the standard share spells ability would cover this. But assuming you can make him "the caster" for purposes of the spell maintaining distance, you can do this with a simple birdcage on a 10 ft. pole. Hold it out and have your familiar order the disk to approach while your'e standing on it, holding the pole. You can even steer just by repositioning the birdcage relative to the disk.

These do work, but seem somewhat round about, and Sith_Happens' Disk-Jumping simply strikes me as the more elegant solution :smallfrown:

Yes, you can parse semantics until it's difficult to disagree with the idea, but try walking into any crowd of ordinary people while brandishing a big sheet of aluminum foil and telling them that it's "the ground" simply because you're holding it horizontally. Soon the nice men in white coats will come take you away and give you a pretty white jacket with wrap-around sleeves. We'd garner more respect for the optimization community if we steer clear of such dubious interpretations.

The simplest method to ensure this works without raised eyebrows is to discover the limitations of scale via in-game experimentation. Get as big a chunk of solid material levitating as you can (e.g. a flying ship if you wanna go big) and create a disk on it. Then start taking pieces of that solid material away (e.g. tear of pieces of the ship and throw them away), making the solid material chunk gradually smaller. You'll inevitably arrive at what -if any- the cut of point is at which your in-game laws of magic no longer class the solid beneath the disk to count as "ground" for the disk's purpose (i.e. the point at which your DM resolves to cut you off). If it's based on volume, you can start tinkering with different materials (e.g. soarwood?); if it's based on mass it comes down to finding a sufficiently powerful mage-hand type effect that can handle that weight.

This approach has the advantage that it avoids a knee-jerk no from a DM, thanks to it requiring step by step consideration. The DM can obviously still set the limits in the realm of Tenser's Feather no longer being practical for cheap flight purposes. But, in either case the advantage of being able to ignore the perils of certain surfaces (e.g. thin ice) still stands, so Tenser's Feather can still be useful even if the flight-option is disallowed.

And hey, I clearly acknowledged that this trick was in realm of the dairy-products :smalltongue:

Segev

2015-04-28, 09:23 AM

That is a nice combo, provided the DM doesn't take issue with the concave nature of the disk. I'll keep it in mind, might be able to fit it into a potential future trick.I've seen no rules anywhere that say the portable hole has to be placed on a flat surface, only on a surface. I coudl be mistaken, however.

These do work, but seem somewhat round about, and Sith_Happens' Disk-Jumping simply strikes me as the more elegant solution :smallfrown:See, I find it to be less elegant because it requires hopping along. While I admit this gets into DM-adjudication territory, my concern here is that most DMs are likely to actually rule that you need to make a constitution or other check to keep jumping without tiring yourself out.

It hardly strains credulity that hopping along like a frog is tiring; this thus becomes a short-term travel option, at best. The dangling-birdcage (or throne) method, on the other hand, could literally be done in your sleep if you were content to travel in one direction.

On this topic, though, too, if you've got long enough legs, you could reasonably evoke two disks, order them both to maintain 0 ft. distance, and then carefully maneuver your relative position over them to effectively walk. You might need to be making some sort of ice-skating-like slide with your feet, one in front of the other, but it should be doable.

Just had another thought: If you construct your off-center throne or give your familiar a harness with the appropriate shape, you could attach the "feather floor" to the whole of the construction, and now it moves with your familiar/you and thus stays under the disk no matter what speed you move at. The disk follows at the movement speed of its owner. Now you can fully fly! Admittedly not the greatest of vertical maneuverability, but as long as you can tilt it such that it's maintaining its distance with its "ground" beneath it (even at an angle)...

Mehangel

2015-04-28, 11:41 AM

It is a grey area, but I think a very well-arguable one. At the simplest level, the definition of the Prone condition is "A prone creature is lying flat on the ground", so if the DM were to rule that the surface of a disk doesn't qualify as "ground", then it would be impossible to lie prone on it. There are a myriad of dysfunctions like this that one could point to to argue for disk-stacking.

Obviously, a DM can simply say "Don't care, not allowing you to do that"; but that applies to literally everything in the game.

An issue that I find with a DM ruling that the Disk isnt considered "ground" is that it affects far more then just lying prone as it has been pointed out.

Endarire

2015-04-29, 07:43 PM

Could we get a version of this handbook on the MinMax Boards Handbook section?

Jowgen

2015-04-29, 08:15 PM

Could we get a version of this handbook on the MinMax Boards Handbook section?

Yeah. Sure. Love the handbook index over there. Do I need to do anything to get this on there?

Endarire

2015-04-30, 02:09 AM

Jowgen: On MinMax, you need to register an account (easy) then post on the Noob Board so you get access to the rest of the forum. Then, once your post is ready, post this handbook on the Handbook forum, make a post on the Handbook Discussion forum, and put a link to your discussion thread in your main post and a link to your main post in the discussion thread.

In short, once you register, do what other handbook authors do.

Jowgen

2015-04-30, 02:32 AM

Kazyan

2015-04-30, 03:20 AM

The simplest method to ensure this works without raised eyebrows is to discover the limitations of scale via in-game experimentation. Get as big a chunk of solid material levitating as you can (e.g. a flying ship if you wanna go big) and create a disk on it. Then start taking pieces of that solid material away (e.g. tear of pieces of the ship and throw them away), making the solid material chunk gradually smaller. You'll inevitably arrive at what -if any- the cut of point is at which your in-game laws of magic no longer class the solid beneath the disk to count as "ground" for the disk's purpose (i.e. the point at which your DM resolves to cut you off). If it's based on volume, you can start tinkering with different materials (e.g. soarwood?); if it's based on mass it comes down to finding a sufficiently powerful mage-hand type effect that can handle that weight.

This approach has the advantage that it avoids a knee-jerk no from a DM, thanks to it requiring step by step consideration. The DM can obviously still set the limits in the realm of Tenser's Feather no longer being practical for cheap flight purposes. But, in either case the advantage of being able to ignore the perils of certain surfaces (e.g. thin ice) still stands, so Tenser's Feather can still be useful even if the flight-option is disallowed.

And hey, I clearly acknowledged that this trick was in realm of the dairy-products :smalltongue:

There's cheese, and then there's trying to 'gotcha' the DM into allowing a broken trick, which is just disrespectful and the sort of mindset that is making me fall away from this game.

Troacctid

2015-04-30, 03:23 AM

Yeah, at that point, you should really just switch to greater floating disk.

Jowgen

2015-04-30, 04:14 AM

I've seen no rules anywhere that say the portable hole has to be placed on a flat surface, only on a surface. I coudl be mistaken, however.

I might be thinking of something else as well, actually. Enveloping Pit perhaps? *shrug*

See, I find it to be less elegant because it requires hopping along. While I admit this gets into DM-adjudication territory, my concern here is that most DMs are likely to actually rule that you need to make a constitution or other check to keep jumping without tiring yourself out.

It hardly strains credulity that hopping along like a frog is tiring; this thus becomes a short-term travel option, at best. The dangling-birdcage (or throne) method, on the other hand, could literally be done in your sleep if you were content to travel in one direction.

On this topic, though, too, if you've got long enough legs, you could reasonably evoke two disks, order them both to maintain 0 ft. distance, and then carefully maneuver your relative position over them to effectively walk. You might need to be making some sort of ice-skating-like slide with your feet, one in front of the other, but it should be doable.

Just had another thought: If you construct your off-center throne or give your familiar a harness with the appropriate shape, you could attach the "feather floor" to the whole of the construction, and now it moves with your familiar/you and thus stays under the disk no matter what speed you move at. The disk follows at the movement speed of its owner. Now you can fully fly! Admittedly not the greatest of vertical maneuverability, but as long as you can tilt it such that it's maintaining its distance with its "ground" beneath it (even at an angle)...

It might be worth noting that I did originally suggest something very similar to the bird-cage approach back in the original discussion. Then Sith Happens invented disk jumping. The jumping might possibly get a fluff-limit applied to it, but birdcage might be disallowed based on "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" logic. Conservative interpretations of the Disk (and the FAQ) give it no propulsion of it's own, so unless there is a source of motion for the disk to "feed off" (as with jumps), it arguably just can not move. Disk Jumping just strikes me as considerably less vulnerable to DM-objection. :smallfrown:

I also toyed with something similar to the ice-skating method, but ran into similar problems. There is just no guarantee that simply being off-centre will be judged as sufficient for the disk to move. It's largely dependent on the degree to which one is allowed to fine tune disk commandments. If the DM is happy to allow a "maintain 0 ft distance to my my right/left foot" as a legal command, then this works, but that's a bit too much of a maybe for me to be comfortable including. :smallfrown:

As for the flying-familiar-chariot, that definently falls into the realm of ingeniously combining tenser's feather with one of the other tricks (tenser's carriage's familiar-version specifically in this case). That kind of combo-ing is something I'd prefer to leave up to the reader to tinker with. :smallwink:

There's cheese, and then there's trying to 'gotcha' the DM into allowing a broken trick, which is just disrespectful and the sort of mindset that is making me fall away from this game.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think it applies in this case. Reducing the floating ground step wise makes it obvious what is being investigated and provides the DM with ample time/opportunity to consider at what point he thinks the disk should no longer work. If anything, testing the trick in this out in this way keeps its fluff/role-play friendly and makes it less likely the DM will regret whatever he decides upon. If one were to just mage-hand a large wok one day out of nowhere and see whether your DM will allow you to summon a disk over it, then that would likely qualify as a case of dirty gotcha, but I would not advocate that kind of thing.

Yeah, at that point, you should really just switch to greater floating disk.

True disciples of Tenser wrinkle their noses at that spell as needlessly complicated and show-off-esque. :smalltongue:

That aside, the combination of low level level to mimic a higher-level spell is a common and sometimes effective practice. Levitate + Unseen Servant also makes for a nice and cheap low-level alternative to fly. Not saying it's practical needed, but there's no reason to dismiss it either. *shrug*

Segev

2015-04-30, 08:31 AM

Jowgen

2015-04-30, 04:54 PM

The disk does have an obvious ability to move itself: it does so whenever you order it to maintain a distance from you and you move. This is why the birdcage trick must work by the RAW, even under the strictest of readings. If the jumping trick works, so, too, must the birdcage.

The jumping trick works because you've ordered it to maintain a distance of 0 ft. When you jump forward, "0 ft." from you changes, so the disk moves, and you find it still beneath you when you land. If, however, for whatever reason, you do NOT land, it still must move to be beneath you.

Hm. There is, therefore, one way in which the birdcage trick might fail. If you cannot even order the disk to change relative distance from you - that is, you cannot order it to "come" or "go," but only to "stay" or "maintain" (and that "staying" can cause it to wink out if you walk too far away), then the birdcage trick could fail because anybody standing on the disk who tried to move you would instead push themselves off of it, as if you were attached to the disk by an immovable pole. (Like standing on an upside-down table and trying to push the table along by pushing on the legs.)

By that reasoning, though, the jumping trick should fail for the same reason that pushing on the table's leg while jumping off of the table would fail. You jump, but can't make forward progress, because you didn't push off of anything that could give it to you.

The degree to which the disk can be commanded is the crux at the very heart of being a Disciple of Tenser.
Strictest level: "Follow" and "Stay". Disk can only move to follow behind or remain stationary.
Strict: "Maintain relative" and "Stay". Disk can also accompany while staying ahead or to the side. Under this, things like Tenser's bunker can move with the Disciple.
Loose: "Maintain in fashion X" and "Stay". Disk can accompany according to specific patterns, such as moving in relation to a body part or manoeuvring around obstacles as specified. With this, Ice-skating works.
Loosest: "Maintain in fashion X", "Move to Y" and "Stay". This allows the disk to move about in range in any way desired. With this, the Disk can be ridden without problem; requiring neither jumping or Bircdage.

Note: with these from Strictest to Loose, there is a problem with what happens if the disk is created e.g. 20 ft away but told to follow at 5 ft. How is the disk meant to catch up? By the strict readings, it can't catch up. The main argument for riding the disk is that this is kind of restriction is silly, so moving within range should be possible.

Disk Jumping works at the strictest level as follows. Disciple is atop Disk with 0 ft follow command. As the disk is at 0 ft, it is in "Stay" mode. With Jump, the Disciple propels himself forward of the stationary disk. As soon as he is off the disk (achieving minimum distance for the 0 ft command to trigger) the disk swtiches from "Stay" to "Follow" and re-establishes 0 ft distance, allowing character to land on disk. Rinse, lather, repeat.

For birdcage to function at the strictest level, several conditions must be met. First, the Birdcage contraption (I used to call if fishing rod back in the original thread) musn't be considered part of the Disciple like the rest of his equipment is. Second, the disk must be able to "push" against external forces, in the sense that it can push against the birdcage contraption (and thus, via transference, the Disciple) for the purpose of trying to reduce distance and follow the given order. A different way to illustrate this self-perpetuating motion: summon a disk at the back of a carriage or cart, give the 0ft distance command,and then proceed to move off the disk onto the cart. Does the disk now push the cart in an attempt to close the distance?

This does bring up another thought, though. There's nothing about the disk being STOPPED by anything other than your movement ceasing or your ordering it to hold still. What happens if you put it 10 feet in front of you and walk towards a wall?

This ties directly into the above. The disk explicitly has the power to maintain the distance; but just how it's ability to avoid obstacles is undefined (and is thus assumed minimal for this guide), it's ability to exert pressure against things for the purpose of trying to maintain distance isn't defined. For this guide, I assume that the disk simply can't push; meaning that just how no one can forcibly move the disk, the disk can't forcibly move anything else either.

If you want the disk to be able to "push", you'll have to work out the limits and ramifications to this with the DM. A simple way to do this without just making the whole thing up is to go off the disk's carry-limit. The disk can support X00 lb of weight, so ruling that it can exert the X00 lb worth of force to push against obstacles isn't much of a stretch. Fluff-wise, this would also fit with how the Disks created by the Talisman of the disk get more powerful if the Disciple has + Str items.

However, in this case I would personally rule that this pushing ability needs to work both ways; meaning that the disk can be moved by external forces that exert the same x00 lb worth of force upon it that it can exert upon them. This keep things consistent, and effectively trades the Disk's immovability perk for the ability to push against objects. There are pro's and cons both in terms of utility and balance for both ways to rule things. Still, considering that giving there is nothing in the description that indicates how much the disk can push, any chosen value would be a house rule (a very reasonable house-rule but still a house rule); so to include it in the guide... I guess I could at least put an acknowledgement of in the rules of the disk section, so people can consider this possibility for their table.

On a completely unrelated note, I'd just wanted to say that I very much appreciate your interest and contributions to this handbook. :smallsmile:

EDIT: Handbook has been copied over to min/max at this link http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=15724

bekeleven

2015-04-30, 06:03 PM

Frozen_Feet

2015-04-30, 06:03 PM

There's a problem with a few of these tricks. If ground is "a given solid horizontal surface", then the flesh of a creature lying prone will qualify. Hence, trying to pin a mobile target down won't work - the disk will rise with them.

Jowgen

2015-04-30, 11:45 PM

It's easy for a DM to place limits on the hopping trick (as well as many of the other autonomous-travel tricks in this handbook, like the birdcage).

D&D is a game of discrete rounds and action. All I have to do as a DM is apply a very reasonable rule that the disk moves after your action. If you want to hop 5 feet, you fall to the ground next to it, then once you get up and end your round it smacks you in the back of the head.

This doesn't stop the "birdcage" trick, but depending on how you interpret the disk's move orders, may limit it to moving 5 feet/round.

Only things with Dex scores get/need to have a place in the initiative order. Active spell effects act regardless of initiative, unless their description specifies otherwise. The disk's ability to maintain distance to the caster is explicitly described as "constant". Saying that the disk needs time to "catch up" is obviously the DM's prerogative, but that is in every way a house-rule; meaning this consideration is beyond the scope of a guide like this. Also, I am not endorsing birdcage.

There's a problem with a few of these tricks. If ground is "a given solid horizontal surface", then the flesh of a creature lying prone will qualify. Hence, trying to pin a mobile target down won't work - the disk will rise with them.

There are no rules for standing, fighting or moving on the body of creatures (this came up in the Q&A thread a while ago, actually; with a question about climbing a Dragon). You can grapple/pin and mount/ride creatures, but that is it. Basically, creatures are not surfaces in the same way that they aren't objects.

Now if you'd happen to know of any instance where a creature does, for all intents and purposes, seem to function as ground, then that might change things. Are there any adventure modules where part of the dungeon floor actually turns out to be a massive sleeping Tarasque-esque creature, or something like that?

Heliomance

2015-05-01, 07:10 AM

I would suggest that you probably can't be tracked over the surface of a Tenser's Floating Disk. Does that not make it not count as ground by your definitions?

Segev

2015-05-01, 09:03 AM

I would suggest that you probably can't be tracked over the surface of a Tenser's Floating Disk. Does that not make it not count as ground by your definitions?I don't see why you couldn't be tracked over the surface of a Floating Disk. You leave oils from your feet/fur/tracked-on grime/your own scent behind whenever you step. If you didn't, you couldn't be tracked over linoleum tile or solid granite, but neither of these do more than raise the DC of the Survival check.

The degree to which the disk can be commanded is the crux at the very heart of being a Disciple of Tenser.
Strictest level: "Follow" and "Stay". Disk can only move to follow behind or remain stationary.
Strict: "Maintain relative" and "Stay". Disk can also accompany while staying ahead or to the side. Under this, things like Tenser's bunker can move with the Disciple.
Loose: "Maintain in fashion X" and "Stay". Disk can accompany according to specific patterns, such as moving in relation to a body part or manoeuvring around obstacles as specified. With this, Ice-skating works.
Loosest: "Maintain in fashion X", "Move to Y" and "Stay". This allows the disk to move about in range in any way desired. With this, the Disk can be ridden without problem; requiring neither jumping or Bircdage.I confess that I'm not entirely sure that "follow" and "maintain relative" are meaningfully different. The reason being that the definition of "follow" is sufficiently vague that one could argue for just about anything short of preceeding being standard "following."

It's also noteworthy that the precise wording involves the phrase, "If not otherwise directed, it maintains a constant interval of 5 feet between itself and you." This implies that, if you do not explicitly command it otherwise, it can and will move to that distance. This leads to a mildly strange possible situation: levitate or hang such that you are 3 feet off the ground; cast floating disk such that it appears directly beneath you; immediately stop hanging/levitating. You have not now "otherwise directed" it, so it will attempt to maintain 5 ft from you. It might be a RANDOM direction in which it starts to move, but it should start to move!

Note that I do not advocate this procedure; it seems finicky and unreliable at best.

Note: with these from Strictest to Loose, there is a problem with what happens if the disk is created e.g. 20 ft away but told to follow at 5 ft. How is the disk meant to catch up? By the strict readings, it can't catch up. The main argument for riding the disk is that this is kind of restriction is silly, so moving within range should be possible.There's nothing in the strictest reading that says it cannot move to catch up, though. So if the strictest reading requires that it be in a position it is not, and that it could legally have gotten into the position it is (as in your example, it's create 20 ft. away and not "otherwise directed," so it will maintain an interval of 5 ft.), then it must be capable of moving of its own accord to the required position.

Again, this is a strict reading. The rules provide for a situation wherein it can come to be more or less than 5 ft. away from the caster without being "otherwise directed," and that, unless otherwise directed, it maintain a constant interval of 5 ft. There are no rules saying it CANNOT move from (say) 20 ft. away to 5 ft. away in order to obey that requirement. Therefore, since the rules say it MUST achieve this, it can.

Disk Jumping works at the strictest level as follows. Disciple is atop Disk with 0 ft follow command. As the disk is at 0 ft, it is in "Stay" mode. With Jump, the Disciple propels himself forward of the stationary disk. As soon as he is off the disk (achieving minimum distance for the 0 ft command to trigger) the disk swtiches from "Stay" to "Follow" and re-establishes 0 ft distance, allowing character to land on disk. Rinse, lather, repeat.Then the birdcage/fishing rod trick should work as well, because the disk has switched from "stay" to "follow" as soon as the caster is no longer on the disk.

On Strict Reading
Hrg. Reading the spell again very closely, I am not sure the strictest reading permits the use of the word "follow." It says, "The disk floats approximately 3 feet above the ground at all times and remains level. It floats along horizontally within spell range and will accompany you at a rate of no more than your normal speed each round." (emphsis mine)

"Accompany" and "follow" are nearly synonymous, but not entirely interchangeable in all circumstances. One can accompany another (as, say, a point man/body guard) by preceeding him wherever he goes. Or by walking beside him. I think your second-tier of strictness is actually the most strict and literal reading of the rules.

Even that's a bit quesitonable, though. It doesn't say that you can order it to "stay." It only gives us that vague, "Unless otherwise directed..." clause to indicate that it can be other than 5 ft. from you.

So the only things we're given are:

It accompanies you.
It maintains a constant distance of 5 ft. from you unless otherwise directed.
"Otherwise directed" (from maintaining that 5 ft. distance) is the only wording we have for how it can do other than maintain 5 ft.
It can move at your "normal movement rate" and no more.
It moves horizontally (which, by strictest reading, means it can't move vertically).
It can't become more than 3 ft. off the ground without winking out.

(Those last two are actually problematic for basic functionality: technically, if you go up or down a hill or stairs, its inability to move vertically means it winks out shortly thereafter.)

More to our concerns, however...

It "accompanies" you, not follows, and there is no explicit statement that it can be told to "stay." It can be directed. How it can be directed is the question. Unfortunately, "strict" readings don't mean "the most restrictive." Though I suppose you could mean that. Regardless, to change from "accompany" to "follow" is a more restrictive reading, but a less strict one.

Let's consider it from another angle. Removing the spell from the equation, let's say you have a travelling companion who is going to accompany you. He has a preference for staying exactly 5 ft. from you, and will not move faster than your normal movement rate. Ignore, for the moment, the "wink out" rules and the "spell range" rules, as they're not entirely relevant to this portion of the analogy. He is an agreeable companion, however, and will accept direction other than "stay within 5 ft." It's just what he'll do unless otherwise directed.

As he accompanies you, he would easily avoid obstacles to stay with you, moving ahead or behind as needed. He is not following you, so there's no relative positional requirement that he be behind. He could be walking ahead of you or beside you.

What, though, can you "otherwise direct" him to do besides maintain a constant distance of 5 ft.? If he's a random travelling companion who is agreeable or obedient, you can probably get him to move however you like as long as he's still accompanying you.

Going back to the spell, I can't see how a strict reading of the RAW puts a restriction on how the disk can be "otherwise directed," except that it must move horizontally, and cannot accompany you at more than your normal movement speed. There are specifications for how it winks out if moved in certain ways, as well.

Certainly, "follow" and "stay" being the only commands it can be given is a more restrictive reading, but it relies on implied limitations that are not in the text.

The trouble is, if you're using "strict" to mean "restrictive" as in "how a DM who wanted to minimize this spell's utility might rule," then the only thing we have is that it maintains an interval of 5 ft. unless otherwise directed. If otherwise directed, the spell doesn't explicitly say that it behaves as directed. It could be that directing it otherwise causes entirely random or erratic behavior as the DM's humor dictates.

I say all of this not to argue with your assumptions; they're fine as starting points for finding tricks. But if we want to establish baseline assumptions it may be wise to really thoroughly make sure we're not inventing text that isn't there in

For birdcage to function at the strictest level, several conditions must be met. First, the Birdcage contraption (I used to call if fishing rod back in the original thread) musn't be considered part of the Disciple like the rest of his equipment is.Going back to using your assumptions on strictness, I will now point out that this condition is inherently achieved by making the caster not wield the birdcage/fishing rod. He occupies the "cage" portion that dangles at the end; it is equipment belonging to the guy standing on the disk and holding the rod.

Second, the disk must be able to "push" against external forces, in the sense that it can push against the birdcage contraption (and thus, via transference, the Disciple) for the purpose of trying to reduce distance and follow the given order.It clearly can push against external forces, if you count things supported by the disk as being "external." The person holding the rod is supported by the disk. He should move as it moves.

A different way to illustrate this self-perpetuating motion: summon a disk at the back of a carriage or cart, give the 0ft distance command,and then proceed to move off the disk onto the cart. Does the disk now push the cart in an attempt to close the distance?That depends on whether it can push things it is not supporting. If the cart is supported by the disk, and the caster moves forward on the cart...in theory it should work.

This ties directly into the above. The disk explicitly has the power to maintain the distance; but just how it's ability to avoid obstacles is undefined (and is thus assumed minimal for this guide), it's ability to exert pressure against things for the purpose of trying to maintain distance isn't defined. For this guide, I assume that the disk simply can't push; meaning that just how no one can forcibly move the disk, the disk can't forcibly move anything else either.Reasonable.

On a completely unrelated note, I'd just wanted to say that I very much appreciate your interest and contributions to this handbook. :smallsmile:

My pleasure. Analyzing these things is fun.

I think it interesting how this seemingly-simple spell can be parsed and re-parsed so much and we still occasionally realize that we've injected assumptions not present in the wording.

bekeleven

2015-05-01, 03:28 PM

Only things with Dex scores get/need to have a place in the initiative order.
the Shrieker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fungus.htm#shrieker) has an initiative score. As does a psion sandwich.

Jowgen

2015-05-01, 08:07 PM

the Shrieker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fungus.htm#shrieker) has an initiative score. As does a psion sandwich.

Shrieker does still have a dex score, it just happens to be 0. That is different from it being a non-ability. If Dex ( or int) were a non-ability for it, the entry would have its initiative as 0, since that is the modifier non-abilities apply.

ericgrau

2015-05-01, 10:59 PM

These are some nice tricks. Though I don't think (just my opinion) you can order it to maintain a distance of 0 feet. I think your only 2 options are follow at a distance of 5 feet and stop.

"Ground" is fuzzy and as stingy as I am with exploiting spells I can't think of a good definition and I wouldn't necessarily exclude other disks (even being stingy as I am). I think if you had many floating disks side by side this might qualify as ground because it is the surface you and others are traveling across. A stricter definition might be the material horizontal ground but then this would exclude a horizontal plane of force which I don't think is necessarily a good idea. All the dictionary definitions I found refer to the earth's non-water surface which would then exclude wooden floors. So maybe that's it. Either it doesn't work on the 2nd story of a building, or it does in fact work on top of other disks.

Sith_Happens

2015-05-01, 11:10 PM

Sith_Happens' Disk-Jumping simply strikes me as the more elegant solution

http://www.troll.me/images/brick-tamland/thank-you-i-try-thumb.jpg

See, I find it to be less elegant because it requires hopping along. While I admit this gets into DM-adjudication territory, my concern here is that most DMs are likely to actually rule that you need to make a constitution or other check to keep jumping without tiring yourself out.

If anything it'd be closest to hustling:

A character can hustle for 1 hour without a problem. Hustling for a second hour in between sleep cycles deals 1 point of nonlethal damage, and each additional hour deals twice the damage taken during the previous hour of hustling. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from hustling becomes fatigued.

A fatigued character can’t run or charge and takes a penalty of -2 to Strength and Dexterity. Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue.

Also, I think it's already in the guide, but make sure to have a Jump rank, you don't want to land on your stomach every time.

There's a problem with a few of these tricks. If ground is "a given solid horizontal surface", then the flesh of a creature lying prone will qualify. Hence, trying to pin a mobile target down won't work - the disk will rise with them.

On the other hand, there has to be an application for the ability to create a Floating Disk atop a pile of corpses.:smallwink:

Extra Anchovies

2015-05-02, 12:20 AM

I love this thread, all of it. It's like wavedashing in Super Smash or bhopping in CS:GO; a small mechanical exploit that produces some amazing advantages when used properly. Thank you for this.

bekeleven

2015-05-02, 01:09 AM

Shrieker does still have a dex score, it just happens to be 0. That is different from it being a non-ability. If Dex ( or int) were a non-ability for it, the entry would have its initiative as 0, since that is the modifier non-abilities apply.
http://i.imgur.com/CvmQ4EW.png

Jowgen

2015-05-02, 02:05 AM

http://i.imgur.com/CvmQ4EW.png

Nonabilities
Some creatures lack certain ability scores. These creatures do not have an ability score of 0—they lack the ability altogether. The modifier for a nonability is +0. Other effects of nonabilities are detailed in the ability's description.

Either the Shriek'er initiative and AC are wrong and Dex is a non-ability, or Intitiative and AC are right and the dash instead of a 0 after dex is a typo. Either way, the Shrieker most certainly has a faulty stat-block. Even if it were accurate, defining rules based on sample stat-blocks is a very bad practice (e.g. look at all the example PrC-characters who violate the PrC-qualification rules).

ericgrau

2015-05-02, 08:42 AM

Dex might be the poorly defined exception. I believe objects face the same -5 penalty even though they have no dex score.

Extra Anchovies

2015-05-02, 08:44 AM

Dex might be the poorly defined exception. I believe objects face the same -5 penalty even though they have no dex score.

They also don't have any ability scores, and don't have the same statblocks as creatures - all they have is AC, hardness, and HP (along with weight and cost if you want to include those). I don't think they have even nonabilities.

ericgrau

2015-05-02, 08:46 AM

They also don't have any ability scores, and don't have the same statblocks as creatures - all they have is AC, hardness, and HP (along with weight and cost if you want to include those). I don't think they have even nonabilities.
FWIW they seem to get a -5 to AC.

Extra Anchovies

2015-05-02, 08:47 AM

FWIW they seem to get a -5 to AC.

Hm? How can we know that? Are the only modifiers that apply the size modifier and the -5 from not having a Dex score? Then I guess I'm wrong. Sorry.

ericgrau

2015-05-02, 08:49 AM

Hm? How can we know that? Are the only modifiers that apply the size modifier and the -5 from not having a Dex score? Then I guess I'm wrong. Sorry.
Ya we can know from adding it up. Dunno if there's anything more specific than that.

It makes sense because the shrieker's inability to move really does make it easier to hit. The initiative is the part that could go either way and if you think about it immobility shouldn't affect its abilities at all so the -5 to init is a bit wonky.

EDIT:
Wait, I stand corrected:

An inanimate object has not only a Dexterity of 0 (-5 penalty to AC), but also an additional -2 penalty to its AC

Objects have dex 0 not dex -. Sigh.

Next I checked the nonability rules for dex and it says if a creature has no dex then it uses int for initiative. Which is also - for the shrieker. Double sigh.

I hate whoever was in charge of organizing the rules sections and who scattered rules locations like leaves in the wind.

Jowgen

2015-05-02, 09:04 AM

FWIW they seem to get a -5 to AC.

And in addition to that -5 for being immobile (I think the SRD text actually talks about it as if they had Dex 0), they get an extra -2 on top of that for no particular reason. Objects are weird...

This kinda makes me wonder what the Disk's AC would be. Obviously there's little point in hitting it (with it being indestructible and all), but if somebody wanted to hit it with a dispelling weapon or something, what kinda of AC would they be going against?

On a not-entirely-disk-related-note, this also makes me wonder whether moving non-creatures can provoke attacks of opportunity. Lets say a disk with a cup on it passes you by, could you try to sunder or grap the disk or cup?

EDIT: Partially Ninja'd.

I'm getting a strong feeling that the authors put very little thought into the rules relating to Objects and creatures similar to objects. The Shrieker should never have been a creature, but just a regular plant similar to green slime or brown mold or whatever.

Hey, why not make this all real fun and try to figure out how the Encounter Traps from Dungeonscape fit into this whole mess! *laughs maniacally*

ericgrau

2015-05-02, 09:13 AM

This kinda makes me wonder what the Disk's AC would be. Obviously there's little point in hitting it (with it being indestructible and all), but if somebody wanted to hit it with a dispelling weapon or something, what kinda of AC would they be going against?
3 I think. 10-5-2. Arguably more if it's moving. What's weirder is that the AC of a 5 foot square is 5 even though it's larger. Argh.

On a not-entirely-disk-related-note, this also makes me wonder whether moving non-creatures can provoke attacks of opportunity. Lets say a disk with a cup on it passes you by, could you try to sunder or grap the disk or cup?
The AoO rules use the words "enemy" and "opponent", so only if the cup is your enemy.
<.<

>.>

In a real game, RAW or not, I would say yes you should be able to. We just normally ignore this because most people don't want to take a swipe at passing objects.

Jowgen

2015-05-02, 09:20 AM

3 I think. 10-5-2. Arguably more if it's moving. What's weirder is that the AC of a 5 foot square is 5 even though it's larger. Argh.

The AoO rules use the words "enemy" and "opponent", so only if the cup is your enemy.
<.<

>.>

And now I'm wondering if you could get away with targeting a square by targeting the section of ground that makes up that square, and thus hitting for lower AC :smalltongue:

Also, Cups are the devil. I'd pick Favored Enemy (Utensils) if I could. F*£% cups. They're my sworn enemy. Glasses shall reign supreme!

Extra Anchovies

2015-05-02, 09:24 AM

I hate whoever was in charge of organizing the rules sections and who scattered rules locations like leaves in the wind.

Hey, you can't blame them for the wind at least. They are by the coast, after all :smallwink:

ericgrau

2015-05-02, 09:37 AM

Also, Cups are the devil. I'd pick Favored Enemy (Utensils) if I could. F*£% cups. They're my sworn enemy. Glasses shall reign supreme!

If I were DMing I'd instantly let someone play a sunder-monkey ranger. As long as they role-played it.

Jowgen

2015-05-02, 09:44 AM

If I were DMing I'd instantly let someone play a sunder-monkey ranger. As long as they role-played it.

That is a lovely idea actually. Could go beautifully with a VoP Fist of the Forest type thing, an eco-terrorist type thing, or a mega-chaotic character who embraces chaos to the point of not wanting anything to have a coherent structure. Everything man-made must go. Return to nature type thing. That character would not be popular. With anyone. Anywhere. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Or, you know, just your average adventurer who revels in destruction. :smalltongue:

Segev

2015-05-02, 12:40 PM

These are some nice tricks. Though I don't think (just my opinion) you can order it to maintain a distance of 0 feet. I think your only 2 options are follow at a distance of 5 feet and stop.Nowhere in the spell's description does the word "stop" or "stay" appear, particularly not as a command you can give it. So technically, specifying that as a command you explicity can give it is adding text to the spell.

The strictest interpretation of the rules I can conceive, which encompasses the default of 5 ft., the fact that it can be "otherwise directed," and the fact that it "accompanies" you, would actually forbid a command to "stay" at all, but would read the fact that the "otherwise directed" clause is in the same sentence as the clause defining the default interval of 5 ft. as a strict comment that the only thing that can be "otherwise directed" about it is the interval. Thus, you cannot change its relative orientation to you, only its distance from you.

By that interpretation, you absolutely could tell it "0 ft." You also definitely can make it move under its own power relative to you...just only in a straight, radial line. But, to make it "stop," you'd either have to hold still, yourself, or you'd have to order it to maintain a different distance constantly as you walked towards it.

I can understand a DM wanting to invent restrictions into it; they could easily find an intent they think means it must only be allowed to do what they say it does. But that is as much DM ruling as anything. I just cannot find in the spell's RAW any indication that "stay" is a command that is explicitly on a highly restrictive list of possible commands.

(I also personally still think that the "otherwise directed" clause is indicative that it can be directed to move anywhere within range. I do not think the only "otherwise direction" it can be given is a different distance. One thing magic spells in D&D tend not to be is overtly awkward to make them perform basic obvious functions, and most of these restrictive readings would require funky dances to be able to get the thing into convenient positions to load and unload and carry.)

If anything [jumping constantly would] be closest to hustlingNo, hustling is walking at top speed, maybe jogging. I am pretty sure that most people can jog or power-walk for significantly longer than they can hop along.

I'm serious. Try it. Pick somewhere you'd normally walk briskly to get to. Then hop that instead of walking it. See if you're more tired afterwards. If it's further than a couple dozen feet, see if you can even really DO it without pausing for a break. Hopping along is surprisingly draining. (Skipping works better, for some reason. I think because you are engaging a walk/run motion to impart forward momentum, and the skip then becomes a lack of halt. The problem with jumping without a running start is that you're basically doing a standing jump, which is a full start and full stop each time.)

Martimus Prime

2015-05-02, 01:01 PM

Hopping along is surprisingly draining. (Skipping works better, for some reason. I think because you are engaging a walk/run motion to impart forward momentum, and the skip then becomes a lack of halt.

I'm suddenly envisioning a spellcaster skipping along, buoyed 3' above the ground and singing "follow the Tenserbrick road!" as he's using the disk-jump trick, with noncaster onlookers standing around trying to figure out whether they failed a will save versus an illusion at some point.

Segev

2015-05-02, 01:13 PM

I'm suddenly envisioning a spellcaster skipping along, buoyed 3' above the ground and singing "follow the Tenserbrick road!" as he's using the disk-jump trick, with noncaster onlookers standing around trying to figure out whether they failed a will save versus an illusion at some point.

Y'know, for a halfling or gnome (or other small-sized) caster, that could possibly work. Skipping is a step-hop, step-hop procedure. The disk is only 3 ft. across, but when you're small, that is easily more than your average pace-length. Step from middle of disk to edge, hop off, and it moves to catch you in the middle. Step with other foot to the edge, hop off, and so on. Now you can move it forward without having the problems of jumping being a tiring-and-slow exercise.

Could reasonably model it with a jump or athletics check, even, putting us back in the same rules as for the original repeated-jumping version.

Extra Anchovies

2015-05-02, 05:27 PM

Don't runners frequently have both of their feet off the ground while doing so? Example:
http://opensim.stanford.edu/images/photos/runner_470.jpg

So I don't even know if we need to actually be hopping, skipping or running would work just fine.

Jowgen

2015-05-02, 05:56 PM

Y'know, for a halfling or gnome (or other small-sized) caster, that could possibly work. Skipping is a step-hop, step-hop procedure. The disk is only 3 ft. across, but when you're small, that is easily more than your average pace-length. Step from middle of disk to edge, hop off, and it moves to catch you in the middle. Step with other foot to the edge, hop off, and so on. Now you can move it forward without having the problems of jumping being a tiring-and-slow exercise.

Could reasonably model it with a jump or athletics check, even, putting us back in the same rules as for the original repeated-jumping version.

When it comes to disk jumping, it really only needs to be as awkward as the DM wants it to be. Jump lends itself because of the lack of RAW restriction on the number of jump checks, but there are other ways to conceivably to do it. The actual disk-jumping movement would usually look something like this:

First, while on the disk, you place your feet at the edges of the disk along the line of your desired movement. Second, bring your back foot forward into the air 3 ft off the the disk. Third, with a relatively small push from your on-disk back-leg, you move your on-disk foot forward to be 3 ft in front of your front in-air foot. As long as your on-disk leg pushed hard enough to keep you at least 3 ft up in the air while doing this motion, the disk out to move exactly far enough to return you to your starting feet-edge-to-edge position. A human can walk normally while maintaing a pace length (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19260181) up to to 1.1 x it's limb size, so having a 3 ft pace-lenght ought to be in the realm of normal or at least achievable without drawback for most medium creatures.

Walking like this means that the forward leg of any given pace does not have to support any weight, while the back-leg of that pace has to exert enough force to keep the character's elevation at least level during the portion of the pace where the other leg would normally support the weight. It's hard to tell whether this change in effort-distribution comes out even or if there is an increase in overall energy expenditure. It seems conceivable to moving like this is less efficient than a normal walking motion, but whether that's the case, and what the exact difference is would be hard to tell.

As for how this translates into game terms... It's certainly less expenditure than running, which has far longer strides and air-borne time during each pace to begin with (as Extra Anchovies just pointed out). It could be more, less or just as strenuous than hustling; which equates to a light job, which also has "air-time". It may or may not require the use of a skill to do effectively, in which case, using that skill could be considered to make the whole motion more efficient, reducing energy expenditure. If a skill is needed, Jump would the most intuitive skill to use for this, but tumble (which includes "dive, roll, somersault, flip, and so on") and balance (deals with how to distribute your weight while moving) could also be used.

The strictest interpretation of the rules I can conceive, which encompasses the default of 5 ft., the fact that it can be "otherwise directed," and the fact that it "accompanies" you, would actually forbid a command to "stay" at all, but would read the fact that the "otherwise directed" clause is in the same sentence as the clause defining the default interval of 5 ft. as a strict comment that the only thing that can be "otherwise directed" about it is the interval. Thus, you cannot change its relative orientation to you, only its distance from you.

I've never really tried to see it in that strict of a measure. I suppose I've let myself be influenced by the ruling of the most dubious Sage (see below).

Can you ride your own Tenser’s floating disk?
No. While you could command your Tenser’s floating disk to move close enough for you to sit upon it, it has no ability to move under its own power. It can follow you only at a maximum rate equal to your normal speed.

This ruling is weird because you can command the disk to move closer to you -meaning it has to be able to move while you're standing still-, but then goes on to say that the disk can't move under its own power. However, back when I read this, I also concluded that in order for you to be able to sit upon it, you need to be able to command it to stay still. As the original discussion thread had those who were against riding it assuming that you could give a "stay" command, is seem to have internalized that as part of my own strictest reading.

*looks pensively onto the horizon* I've let myself be led astray by the whisper's of the sage. I must seek redemption. *laughs sadly to himself* Clearly I still have ways to go...

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcShGOi_dA6uIU_WUhFk0_cgYWgVOaoNX aYj-52LzZX59aww7xjvPg

In any case, as you've said, this stricter reading doesn't impact the effectiveness of Disk Jumping. Also, the other trick can still function as well (except perhaps some of the extended uses), provided you don't move from your square while doing them.

Also, there it might still be possible to work around this very strict reading, as to keep everything the same. Even if you're only allowed to give a command specifying the interval the disk has to maintain to you, there is nothing to say that said interval has to be a fixed number. If you command it to maintain a distance of "30 ft or less" (in the case of a Talisman disk range), then the disk ought to stay stationary until you try to move more than 30 ft away, as the 30-or-less interval is still met while you're moving about within range. The only downside to this is that this might open up the possibility of other creatures moving the disk, so you'd need to stay stationary for any trick that relies on the disk's immovability. Then again, other utilities might be derived from the disk being able to have a function-based interval rather than a static one. *shrug*

Lord of Shadows

2015-05-02, 07:55 PM

Jowgen

2015-05-02, 08:52 PM

Apologies if this has already been pointed out, but along the lines of covering a disk in silver, water, black sand and whatnot, why not just carry a bag of sand (or dirt, or pebbles, whatever) and fling a handful at the disk to create an artificial "ground" on which to stack ever higher disks? At least it would show your rules-heavy DM that you are trying to keep it "legal."
.

No need to apologize, this hasn't been mentioned yet.

The only scenario where it one might be required to put something atop the disk -be it sand, metal or whatever- would be if the DM arbitrarily decided that for something to constitute as ground, it needs to have some kind of particular composition. Now this would go against things like the plane of fire having a ground made of fire, or dungeons have floors made of Force, but a DM could obviously hand-wave that. In that case, this might come in handy, but for the purpose of this guide, it's too niche of an adaptation to be included.

Calthropstu

2016-09-01, 02:30 PM

Inevitability

2016-09-01, 03:08 PM

For best results, have a quickling brownie as a cohort.

There once was a guy from the Playground
He spend much a day browsing around
Alas, he was late,
should have checked the date
on this fun little thread that he found.

Calthropstu

2016-09-01, 03:56 PM

There once was a guy from the Playground
He spend much a day browsing around
Alas, he was late,
should have checked the date
on this fun little thread that he found.

Ahhh, oops. Sorry for the necromancy.

Troacctid

2016-09-01, 08:14 PM

It's a handbook, so it doesn't count as thread necromancy.

Jowgen

2016-09-01, 09:13 PM

And I just did a minor update, so even less undead-ness going on.

Inevitability

2016-09-02, 12:41 AM

It's a handbook, so it doesn't count as thread necromancy.

Really? The only exception to the rule I could find is that the original creator of homebrew may restart his thread after the 45 day limit.

Mihale

2017-04-28, 07:19 AM

What does it mean for something to be the ground?

if you look through the various manuals you will see that in 80% of the cases limiting the term "ground" to the dirt or rock surface of the planet makes no sense with (depending on the version you are using) everything from being prone to falling damage potentially impacted. "Yes you fell 200' feet but you didn't take any damage because you landed on a roof and not on the ground." In the other 20% of the case the call could go either way or there are indications that designers meant ground when they said ground and not just the "semi permanent, semi-horizontal, surface upon which you stand." (if i make the mistake of referring to 5e rules please forgive me as that is what I am playing at the moment)

That brings me to the definition I would use. A semi-permanent, semi-horizontal surface that would support the weight of typical creatures or at least the weight related to the spell. Assume semi permanent means lasting at least 24 hours without requiring any intervention. Assume semi horizontal is no more than a 57° slope.

So for the case of the disk it's any surface that can support at least the weight the disk supports that is going to last at least 24 hours without someone concentrating or holding it and can be climbed up or down with some effort but no exceptional skill.In the case of something like a grease spell, it might be a bridge frame covered in heavy paper that a tiny creature can run across but a small or man sized one would fall through.

So here's some possible scenarios... For the purpose of the disk are the following ground

The ground ... Yes of course
Quicksand ... Maybe, if the disk covered a sufficiently light load I would say probably, quicksand would count as ground. Quicksand can "flow" but usually only does so in response to outside stimuli and so i would say it is semi-permanent because if the need for an outside stimuli is require to maintain a surface is enough to eliminate a surface then a surface maintained in the absence of stimuli should suffice.
Liquid water ... No, any water deeper than six inches and I would say no.
Ice ... If the ice is thick enough to support the weight and is reasonably anchored in place, yes. I large ice flow that is moving down a river or floating in an ocean, no. (this is based on my own rationalization of the term ground, I am tempted to say yes but that would break the rules I set.)
A swamp. Find enough "ground" that isn't covered by at least 6" of water and could support the weight would be difficult. I would say this is DM's prerogative
A bridge (see below)
Your typical robe bridge... No too much movement and too little surface.
The 600 year old myan rope bridge with a floor made of four bundles of fiber each as big around as my thigh, wide enough for two laden people to pass each other. Or laden pack animals and a guide to cross. Yes. The disk ignores difficult terrain (5e) and this bridge meets the other criteria for for semi-permanent.
A substantial wooden bridge. Yes assuming it meets the weight criteria.
A span of stone , ice, or force that has been magically created. As long as it will remain in existence for 24 hours without effort on anyone's part.

Baphomet

2018-05-10, 10:22 AM

Sorry for the necromancy, and this is a cool thread with lots of cool potential, but I do math for a living and I can't just let this stand:

it's not 2x4, but the area of a 3-ft disk is actually larger than that of a 2x4 rectangle.
pi * 1.5^2 = ~7.07
2 * 4 = 8
8 > 7.07

Jowgen

2018-05-11, 06:05 AM

Sorry for the necromancy, and this is a cool thread with lots of cool potential, but I do math for a living and I can't just let this stand:

pi * 1.5^2 = ~7.07
2 * 4 = 8
8 > 7.07

As this is a handbook, anti-necro legislation doesn't apply, so no worries. :smallsmile:

Thank you for your interest in the school of Tenser, and I apologise if the mathematical misdemeanours perpetrated by certain members of the faculty have caused you any calculatory distress. We appreciate you bringing this to our attention. If you see something, say something! :smallbiggrin:

Khazreil

2021-08-23, 07:54 PM

My gf has come up with a tactic we are calling Tenser's Tank. You have to be small or smaller for this to work.
Step 1: You make a 2 disk tower.
Step 2: Drape a sheet of chain mail over the top(should cost 1.5x normal for a small character to have a special shape this size. otherwise just use a large chain shirt).
Step 3: Ride in between the disks, receiving the benefit of chain armor, and full cover from top and bottom(to hell with your burrow speed). If your DM doesn't allow for the disk to move on its own, have a party member/animal companion/familiar/cohort/hireling activate the item and lead you around. Why not anchor yourself to the Paladin to be even safer?
Step 4: Lay waste to your enemies with whatever other spells are in your arsenal(avoid rays, lightning bolts, and fireballs, unless you like destroying your nice things/yourself)
Step 5: Profit

Alternatively, one could shoot arrows or rays etc. through the sleeves, if you went the large chain shirt route...my gf is a genius.

Peelee

2021-08-23, 08:32 PM

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Tenser's Floating Disk really killed the pallbearer industry.