Selecting a versatile and balanced build

[Wasum]

Aloha there!

Our group is about to start a D&D next campaign and I need some advice on what to play. I personally don't know too much about the 5E yet, I usually play Pathfinder and do not have a PHB.

The other charakters in the party are a rogue, a wizard, a cleric, one who has not made a choice yet and me of course.


What gives me a hard time is that the GM insists on rolling attributes (4d6 drop lowest) and even though I've not read too much about 5E yet I believe this is a problem, as stats vary a lot and result in a lot higher numbers than this system requires. E.g. the wizard has rolled no higher than 14 while I have a widely spread stat array:

18, 6, 17, 7, 13, 12


Now I want to play a character who fits into that group, who also is optimized but not a one trick pony. I guess some kind of gish would be nice as we are lacking a melee - but I do not want to give up spells completely as I just really want some versitality to my build and not only "swing my sword".

Therefore I will have to deal with that weird array of stats and however have to pick a character concept that is able to dump two stats. Do you have some suggestions for me? I already thought of the EK, but I kinda felt like I want more magic... maybe... I'm not sure. I'd really appreciate some advice!



Wasum

[Wrenn]

Maybe a Dex based Bladelock, dumping Str and Int. You would be restricted to finesse weapons, so slightly lower damage than a Str based, but you have a more robust spell portfolio than the EK.

[Ghost Nappa]

Assuming you want a full spellcaster, you're options include:

Bard
Cleric
Druid
Sorcerer
Wizard
Warlock

Assuming you DON'T want to double up on classes:

Bard
Druid
Sorcerer
Warlock

3/4 of these are Charisma characters. This is fine as you're party doesn't seem to have a talky person.

I'm actually going to recommend Half-Elf Bard. I only have the DMG with me at the moment, but you should start off with 20 Charisma from Level 1, and you can put the 17 into DEX or CON, giving it a +1 and then put the 13 in the other giving it the other +1. Bard and Half-elf get some nice skill bonuses (free choice of 5 and Expertise at Level 3).

You would probably dump Strength in favor of finesse weapons like the Rapier, and your other dump should probably be INT (Perception is that important.) You get Darkvision, Common, Elvish, another language of your choice and basically any background you want.

So 6 / 13+1 / 17+1 / 7 / 12 / 18+2. You can max out CON at Level 4 and then pick up either DEX+'s or INT+'s (to strength yourself for the rare INT-saves). You get full casting, excellent flexibility, and a lot of customization to yourself.


The only problem is that you feel forced either to be a College of Valor Bard or to shoe-horn your 5th player into a Melee character.

[bloodshed343]

I built a class for this specific scenario.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?385373-5e-Swordmage-homebrew

[umbrellasamurai]

The cleric domains do play fairly differently from one another, so you could end up choosing one of the more martial domains. A low-level analysis:

Tempest
- Full armor/weapon proficiency and the features Wrath of the Storm (electrocute/shockwave anyone who hits you in melee, as a reaction x times per long rest) and Thunderbolt Strike (push back creatures when you deal lightning damage) make close-combat your home
- You'll have pretty decent blasting between Guiding Bolt and the domain-specific spells (Thunderwave, Shatter, etc.)
- The more 'weather manipulation' sort of spells (Fog Cloud, Gust of Wind) give you some extra utility for things like escaping, causing confusion, and such
- Hill dwarf or variant human (arguably Polearm Master, Warcaster) work well for this

War
- Full armor/weapon proficiency and features like War Priest (make an extra weapon attack x-times per long rest) and Guided Strike (be extra accurate on an attack roll once per short rest) puts this at the most combat-oriented of cleric domains
- Fairly useful buffs (Divine Favor for extra damage, etc.)
- Be a variant human with Warcaster to make the most of the buffs (which require concentration)

If you want something with a bigger focus on martial combat, Monk would be an interesting choice (Ki I suppose provides the requisite 'magical' feel):
- Go Wood Elf for the DEX/WIS bonus, putting your DEX at 20 and WIS at 19...with Unarmored Defense, that puts your AC at 19, letting you fairly comfortably tank for the party at low levels
- A spear or quarterstaff + your martial arts would put you at the top of the chain, as far as consistent single-target damage is concerned (1d8+5 + 1d4+5)...and you'll rarely miss with your maxed out DEX
- Select Stealth (+7) and Perception (+6) as skills and you'd be an excellent scout for the party
- Way of the Open Hand would solidify your melee DPR role (kick your turn off with Flurry of Blows, knock an enemy prone, enjoy advantage on the remaining attacks)

[JAL_1138]

Seconding Valor Bard. Utility/buff/debuff casting with some healing, and the option to pick up some good blast spells later. Decent attacks. You can also hand out extra damage to the rogue and set them up for Sneak Attack very well.

Dex Paladin's a possibility; swings the other way on the martial/caster spectrum than VB, can tank quite well. Even less use for Int than the bard has. Good party-wide buffs and good healing.

[Wasum]

Hey there!

Thanks for all that input so far!


I liked the idea of a bard but the 5. player also considered playing that class, so I am not sure about that.

We already have a cleric so that class is out too (even though I'd like those concepts!)



What I really liked is the Warlock idea.... is it possible to play a tanky Warlock somehow?

I liked the idea to use the eldritch blast to push around foes on the map in addition to the versitality the class offers. What do you think about that?


edit: you really think a pala would work out good with these stats?

[bloodshed343]

To play a tank lock, go cha/con/dexterity with pact of the tome for shilleleigh? I don't know how it's spelled. Use a club. Dip fighter and get shield proficiency and medium armor. This should give you about 19 ac with plenty of hit points.

[bloodshed343]

Or do the same thing with a rapier and pact of the blade. In my opinion pact of the tome is better though, since you only need a +2 in dexterity so you have more to put in con.

[umbrellasamurai]

We already have a cleric so that class is out too (even though I'd like those concepts!)



Domains have will pretty different playstyles compared to one another (look at Life vs. Light vs. Tempest, for example). That said, go with what appeals most to you.

[asorel]

If you want to play a caster/melee character without multiclassing, the Eldritch Knight Fighter subclass is pretty good. Just keep in mind that you won't be able to cast spells until level 3. As far as races go, I'd go either High Elf or Forest Gnome if you're willing to use Dexterity-based weapons. For Strength-based weapons, I would go variant Human, maybe Dwarf or Dragonborn if you're planning to use your weapon more often than you use spells.

Edit: Also, there's nothing wrong with rolling for stats in 5th edition. It's what my group does, and it works quite well. I'd just allow players the option to reroll, to make sure no party member is significantly weaker than another.

[Wasum]

To play a tank lock, go cha/con/dexterity with pact of the tome for shilleleigh? I don't know how it's spelled. Use a club. Dip fighter and get shield proficiency and medium armor. This should give you about 19 ac with plenty of hit points.

Yea, I like pact of tome more as well.

Do you think its worth to dip fighter? How bad would my AC be without that?

What about race - I'd go human, tiefling or half-elf and I guess half-elf would be best there.

Further my stats would look like this then: cha 20, kon 18, dex 14, dumped int and str, 12 wis.

As feat, warcaster.


What do you think about that? Will this work out? Could you tell me some ideas you might have to support this concept? Eldritch Blast would be my focus for melee-stuff I guess, how well will this work?




As I said, EK isnt casty enough for me somehow.

And I know clerics can be pretty different but I just dont want to play the same class as another player.

[Socko525]

edit: you really think a pala would work out good with these stats?

A half elf paladin would net you a 20 Dex/strength 18 charisma and 14 constitution. Currently playing a paladin with similar stats (18 str, 18 cha, 16 con) and I'm loving it. I do however have a lot more spellcasting utility (Tomelock, dragon sorcerer, tempest cleric, evocation wizard) so I'm basically melee guy alongside the fighter with added healing when necessary.

[bloodshed343]

Yea, I like pact of tome more as well.

Do you think its worth to dip fighter? How bad would my AC be without that?

What about race - I'd go human, tiefling or half-elf and I guess half-elf would be best there.

Further my stats would look like this then: cha 20, kon 18, dex 14, dumped int and str, 12 wis.

As feat, warcaster.


What do you think about that? Will this work out? Could you tell me some ideas you might have to support this concept? Eldritch Blast would be my focus for melee-stuff I guess, how well will this work?




As I said, EK isnt casty enough for me somehow.

And I know clerics can be pretty different but I just dont want to play the same class as another player.

Your ac would suffer a lot without the fighter dip. You would be in melee with your club and the druid cantrip that let's you melee with your spell casting ability. You might want two clubs until you can get a shield with the dual weapon feat, assuming you can retrain it later. Maybe just keep two clubs for the bonus attack.

Your stats are good.

Edit: until level 3 you'll be using eldritch blast at range. I think it provokes opportunity attacks to use it in melee.

[Felvion]

Well, i'd strongly advice you not to dump your intelligence that much. I mean an 8-9 would be ok, but 6 or 7 create a huge roleplaying issue. Its nice to have maximum possible values in your most needed attributes but how dumb could you afford to be in a roleplaying game?
I used to play a barbarian with int score 8. When the party got hard stuck on a riddle i happened to find the answer first. I had some second thoughts but the excitement was too much to hold so i spit it out. The dm at first gave me a high five but then we both shared an awkard moment of silence. We knew it was wrong rp-wise and it was more than obvious that this particular barbarian would have never thought it.
What I'm trying to say is that i found it difficult to play an 8 int character. I wonder if a 6-7 int would be enjoyable...
In the case of the half-elf paladin i'd give one of the +1 to my int so as to start with an 8. That would be kinda playable. You'd have many opportunities to increase your main stats in a long term campaign but your int is gonna stay the same.
I'd also be ok with a very low wis. You can easily get perception prof especially with a half elf. Additionally, resilient (wis) is quite frequent even in builds with high wis. These 2 would offset any disadvantage from a possible 7 in wis.
The 6 should definatelly be strenght ...

[JAL_1138]

A half elf paladin would net you a 20 Dex/strength 18 charisma and 14 constitution. Currently playing a paladin with similar stats (18 str, 18 cha, 16 con) and I'm loving it. I do however have a lot more spellcasting utility (Tomelock, dragon sorcerer, tempest cleric, evocation wizard) so I'm basically melee guy alongside the fighter with added healing when necessary.

Exactly. It's the exact same stat choices as you'd want for Valor Bard, except switching Wis and Con, and you hit things more and cast a lot less (though more casting and less face-smashing than EK). Dumping Int and Str will not hurt you a bit. Wis is fine not being that high as long as you don't take an actual penalty in it. It's the healy/protecty version of 'lock in a lot of ways; depends on which spell list you favor. Gets fantastic buffs (especially useful for saves) and utility spells even before you get to Oath spells, and the smites keep you competitive for melee. Dex paladins work quite well in 5th; take dueling and a rapier and you're golden. Your spells per day are sorely limited, however, so it may not be as cast-y as you want. Still it's worth a look--makes the party a lot harder to hurt, dishes out good damage.

Edit: Dumping Int won't hurt you mechanically, but Felvion makes a good point on the possible RP issues. Still, I think it's workable. A lot of Pally-friendly skills key off Wis instead of Int, so I'd still dump Int as a Pally--but not as a Warlock or Valor Bard.

[numerek]

I would definitely pick paladin over warlock. The paladin will help the rest of the party more and be better at melee than the warlock. The main advantage to the warlock would be ranged damage. After that it depends on how many short rests you guys get. The tome warlock only gets 1 attack per turn unless you take a feat to get a bonus action attack and you are still behind any other class at 5th level when they get extra attack because they with the same feat could have 3 attacks.

[bloodshed343]

But tome warlocks are much better casters, with access to every ritual spell in the game. Also, sustained damage isn't an issue because you can break out the spell slots when it matters.

Of course, the paladin would be better at taking hits.

So it's really a choice of survivability vs versatility.

[bloodshed343]

Of course, you could also ask your dm to let you playtest my homebrew Swordmage =P I would appreciate the feedback.

[Rummy]

If you wanna play a tank lock, here is how I would do it. Variant human, heavy armor master feat. Put the 18 in Str, 17 Cha, 13 con, the spread the rest as you choose. I'd dump Dex and int, but it doesn't really matter. Whatever you choose, you will have interesting flaws. After racial and feat boosts you will have Str 20 and Cha 18. No need to invest in stats ever again except maybe to get more con. Take first level as fighter. That gives you all the weapons and armor as well as con save proficiency. Then go infernal warlock the rest of the way. Pick bladelock at W3, character level 4 for you. You won't get your extra attack until character level 6 when you get the Thristy Blade invocation, but that's not too bad. Pick up either Polearm Master or Great Weapon Master at warlock level 4 (character level 5). Once your warlock spells are cast at 2nd level effectiveness, you will get a lot of mileage from Armor of Agathys. Also, Darkness + the Devil's Sight invocation is fantastic for a Melee tank. Getting advantage from that combo will allow you to take the -5 attack / +10 damage option from Great Weapon Master and still land hits often enough.

[JAL_1138]

All three classes are very good caster/combatant hybrids. It's down to preference. I just brought up Dex Pally because it's another good option for those stats (fantastic roll btw) that no one had mentioned yet, not saying to go with it over the others. As far as optimization goes I don't think you could go wrong with any of them, so look them over and see which you favor.

[Wasum]

I will for sure keep that dex paladin in mind as a backup plan if my party really needs a true frontliner - but we'll see (appearently the rogue switched to fighter).


When it comes to that warlock - which entity should I pick? Great old one sounds amazing and I love the spells, but the abilities seem to be less impressive than fiendish patron.... mhhh

also I'm still not sure about that Fighter Dip though - even though it doesnt really matter that much for my eldritch blast, right?

When it comes to the bladelock I feel like it doesnt really offer a huge advantage over the eldritch blaster, does it? Damage seems so be the same and I dont have to invest in invocations to get more attacks. Furthermore I can blast at range and add some nice push back effect.

Can you tell me what else might be nice for such a build?

[Rummy]

Damage with great weapon master far exceeds Eldritch blast. EB is way worse damage than a sharpshooter with a long bow and archery style.

[bloodshed343]

Eldritch blast with the invocation that adds damage is better than great weapon master when corrected for hit chance.

If you're going eldritch blaster at ranged, you don't need the fighter dip. You only need the fighter (or paladin) dip if you're going to slug it out in melee with a club and shield. The club and shield won't do as much damage as eldritch blast but it let's you make opportunity attacks. If you can fire eldritch blast in melee while wielding a club and shield, there's no reason not to. I think you get disadvantage though. I'm not sure.

[Felvion]

Can you tell me what else might be nice for such a build?

Some things about the warlock.
If you definately want to be a bladelock follow what feels more obvious to get full advantage as a martial character. The chain warlock is a very special choice.Personally, I would never make it as i couldn't possibly think building a character that on his most iconic features is his familiar (that goes for you beastmaster too!) but i can see that it may appeal to some people.
If you want a bit of both the above plus many many rituals i'd strongly suggest the tome pact. As one of the extra cantrips you could take the shillelagh cantrip which gives you a lot of what a bladelock gets. You wouldn't take an extra attack at lvl5 neither the effect of lifedrinker but you would still be decent in melee and you'd have 2 more invocations. Oh, you also get charisma in both attack and damage and it only takes a bonus action to cast which means you don't care for the duration.
Additionally, you can get access (even from lvl 3) to the find familiar spell which gives you amazing bonuses. Ofc it wouldn't be on par with the familiar granted from chain pact but still you get all the "see through its eyes and communicate telepathetically" stuff.
That being said, you have just one compulsory invocation (book of the ancient secrets) but one of the most powerfull class features in general. Just think that the ritual caster feats lets you get rituals from a specific class only while as a warlock you can get every ritual possible.
All the above make me believe that tome is the best pact (if you can find spells in your campaign) or at least the most versatile (it gives 80% of the other pacts' benefits).
As for attributes, i'd dump strength and wisdom. If you don't mind being dump as hell (or at least be a half-elf/human and raise that 7 to 8) you can switch wisdom for intelligence though i don't see the reason.
The reason wis rated higher than wis is the higher save of wisdom saves frequency and perception/passive perception. As a warlock you get proficiency in wis saves which offsets the drawback and perception is easy to get proficiency in either as a half-elf or human variant.
In case you insist on dumping int (it may not matter to rp in your table) prepare to fail every illusion check you make. Oh, you also lose on passive investigation and all possible non-proficient int checks which are more than the wis ones. Still, your call.

As for the fighter dip, i think it's not worth it unless you know the campaign is either too short or starts at a very high level. Mystic arcanums are too good to get them 2 levels later IMHO.

[Demonicattorney]

Play a Paladin. Your party has plenty of full casters. It is a class that is the best in the hardest encounters, it makes your whole party better, it has solid casting, and you won't be fighting your other party members for gear.
In Char OP settings, Warlocks seem really good because EB has a really high average damage. In a real campaign, Paladins are brutal, they have unique gear, sometimes you can nova your spell slots away and do the most damage. The first time your whole party doesn't have to make a fear save against a dragon or demon you will fall in love iwth the class.

[Rummy]

Eldritch blast with the invocation that adds damage is better than great weapon master when corrected for hit chance.

If you're going eldritch blaster at ranged, you don't need the fighter dip. You only need the fighter (or paladin) dip if you're going to slug it out in melee with a club and shield. The club and shield won't do as much damage as eldritch blast but it let's you make opportunity attacks. If you can fire eldritch blast in melee while wielding a club and shield, there's no reason not to. I think you get disadvantage though. I'm not sure.

This just isn't true. Please note that I advocate coupling it with darkness and Devil's Sight... Advantage roughly cancels out the accuracy penalty.

I've seen EB in action and it works, but it is a bit under powered for my taste. The ranger with sharpshooter makes the warlock's EB look like chump change. Remember, Archery Style adds +2 to hit and a +1 bow makes that a +3 advantage over EB. That means you can afford to take the accuracy hit to pump up damage.

As for the OP, he was asking about Gish tank builds, so EB is kinda irrelevant, although it is always great to have a decent ranged option to fall back on.

I also concur with those that are championing the paladin. It would be a great choice for the OP's party.

[Gwendol]

With that stat array I would strongly recommend paladin. Go mountain dwarf, pick oath of vengeance, and never look back. You will need something tanky, and the paladin does that and then some. I don't know at what level you start, but Lay on Hands is a godsend early on, where the odd hit still can have a life/death outcome.

[Ashrym]

Eldritch blast with the invocation that adds damage is better than great weapon master when corrected for hit chance.

At first level, TWF does more damage than eldritch blast. At second and third levels agonizing blast becomes available and the damage is still better using TWF because hex applies to both attacks. At fourth level the option is available for a feat or an ability increase. Great weapon master can be taken, or pole arm master can be taken. Caster would take CHA. This is what it looks like vs AC 16 with hex up and 18 CHA vs 16 STR, for example:


Eldritch Blast (with agonizing and hex):

5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+4+1d6+1d6 for 1.1
50% standard -- 1d10+4+1d6 for 6.5
45% miss chance -- nada

At one attack 7.6 avg damage.


Great Sword (with heavy weapon master used)

5% crit chance -- 2d6+2d6+3+10+d6+d6 plus bonus attack for the crit for 2.02
20% standard -- 2d6+10+3+1d6 for 4.7
75% miss chance -- nada

At one attack for 6.72 avg damage and less than eldritch blast at this point.


Great Sword (with heavy weapon master not used because the feat can simply be taken early and used on lower AC opponents)

5% crit chance -- 2d6+2d6+3+1d6+1d6 plus bonus attack for the crit for 1.56375
45% standard -- 2d6+3+1d6 for 6.075
50% miss chance -- nada

At one attack for 7.63875 and almost identical to eldritch blast, very slightly better, with possible leverage on low AC targets.


Halberd (with pole arm master)

Main Attack
5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+3+1d6+1d6 for 1.05
45% standard -- 1d10+3+1d6 for 5.4
50% miss chance -- nada

Bonus Attack
5% crit chance -- 1d4+1d4+3+1d6+1d6 for 0.75
45% standard -- 1d4+3+1d6 for 4.05
50% miss chance -- nada

For both attacks 11.25 avg damage and better than eldritch blast or great weapon master.


There doesn't appear to be an issue where weapons are less damage than eldritch blast after taking accuracy into consideration when the feats become available at 4th level. At 5th level the second blast appears and the blade warlock gains access to the thirsting blade invocation for an extra attack.


Eldritch Blast (with agonizing and hex):

5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+4+1d6+1d6 for 1.1
55% standard -- 1d10+4+1d6 for 7.15
40% miss chance -- nada

At two attacks 16.5 avg damage for a nice jump.


Great Sword (with heavy weapon master used)

5% crit chance -- 2d6+2d6+3+10+d6+d6 plus bonus attack for the crit for 2.07875 or 1.7 (crit can only give 1 bonus attack)
25% standard -- 2d6+10+3+1d6 for 5.875
70% miss chance -- nada

At two attacks for 15.52875 avg damage (and a miniscule amount more but I didn't both with chance for crit twice) and still less than eldritch blast at this point.


Great Sword (with heavy weapon master not used because the feat can simply be taken early and used on lower AC opponents)

5% crit chance -- 2d6+2d6+3+1d6+1d6 plus bonus attack for the crit for 1.5975 or 1.2 (crit can only give 1 bonus attack)
50% standard -- 2d6+3+1d6 for 6.75
45% miss chance -- nada

At two attacks for 16.2975 avg damage (and a miniscule amount more but I didn't both with chance for crit twice) and almost eldritch blast with possible leverage on low AC targets.


Halberd (with pole arm master)

Main Attack
5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+3+1d6+1d6 for 1.05
50% standard -- 1d10+3+1d6 for 6.0
45% miss chance -- nada

Bonus Attack
5% crit chance -- 1d4+1d4+3+1d6+1d6 for 0.75
50% standard -- 1d4+3+1d6 for 4.5
45% miss chance -- nada

For all attacks 19.35 avg damage and better than eldritch blast or great weapon master.


There doesn't appear to be an issue where weapons are less damage than eldritch blast after taking accuracy into consideration when the extra attacks become available at fifth level. The crit chance bonus attack loses a bit because it can only be done once regardless and great weapon master is pretty similar in damage (better if a magic weapon becomes available). Pole arm master is still the better option. At 8th level both feats can be combined while number of attacks remains the same, and the eldritch blast caster can jump up to 20 CHA.


Eldritch Blast (with agonizing and hex):

5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+5+1d6+1d6 for 1.15
60% standard -- 1d10+5+1d6 for 8.4
35% miss chance -- nada

At two attacks 19.1 avg damage for a small jump and still behind pole arm master with a halberd at 5th level.


Halberd (with pole arm master and great weapon master using -5/+10)

Main Attack
5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+3+10+1d6+1d6 for 1.55
25% standard -- 1d10+3+10+1d6 for 5.5
70% miss chance -- nada

Bonus Attack non crit main attacks (90.25%)
5% crit chance -- 1d4+1d4+3+10+1d6+1d6 for 1.25
25% standard -- 1d4+3+10+1d6 for 4.75
70% miss chance -- nada

Bonus Attack crit main attacks (9.75% chance)
5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+3+10+1d6+1d6 for 1.55
25% standard -- 1d10+3+10+1d6 for 5.5
70% miss chance -- nada

For all attacks 20.202375 avg damage and better than eldritch blast, and a slight bump up.


Halberd (with pole arm master and great weapon master not using -5/+10)

Main Attack
5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+3+1d6+1d6 for 1.05
50% standard -- 1d10+3+1d6 for 6
45% miss chance -- nada

Bonus Attack non crit main attacks (90.25%)
5% crit chance -- 1d4+1d4+3+1d6+1d6 for 0.75
50% standard -- 1d4+3+1d6 for 4.5
45% miss chance -- nada

Bonus Attack crit main attacks (9.75% chance)
5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+3+1d6+1d6 for 1.05
50% standard -- 1d10+3+1d6 for 6
45% miss chance -- nada

For all attacks 19.5255 avg damage and better than eldritch blast, and slightly lower than applying both feats.


At eighth level, the feats are still the superior choice due to the ability to run 3 attacks first. Levels 12, 16, and 19 can be used to apply ability modifiers for the weapons. At level eleven, eldritch blast gets a third attack while life drinker isn't available until twelth level. At level eleven, it looks like this.


Eldritch Blast (with agonizing and hex):

5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+5+1d6+1d6 for 1.15
65% standard -- 1d10+5+1d6 for 9.1
30% miss chance -- nada

At three attacks 30.75 avg damage for a good jump.


Halberd (with pole arm master and great weapon master using -5/+10)

Main Attack
5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+3+10+1d6+1d6 for 1.55
30% standard -- 1d10+3+10+1d6 for 6.6
65% miss chance -- nada

Bonus Attack non crit main attacks (90.25%)
5% crit chance -- 1d4+1d4+3+10+1d6+1d6 for 1.25
30% standard -- 1d4+3+10+1d6 for 5.7
65% miss chance -- nada

Bonus Attack crit main attacks (9.75% chance)
5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+3+10+1d6+1d6 for 1.55
30% standard -- 1d10+3+10+1d6 for 6.6
65% miss chance -- nada

For all attacks 23.367 avg damage and a bump up but finally behind eldritch blast; at least ignoring the likelihood of a magical weapon by this point.


So far, most levels favor weapon combat given similar bonuses. Eleventh level is a nice boost with third attack for eldritch blast but level twelve is another boost for the blade warlock. At level twelve it looks more like this:


Eldritch Blast (with agonizing and hex):

5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+5+1d6+1d6 for 1.15
65% standard -- 1d10+5+1d6 for 9.1
30% miss chance -- nada

At three attacks 30.75 avg damage and no change from eleventh level.


Halberd (with pole arm master and great weapon master using -5/+10)

Main Attack
5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+4+2+10+1d6+1d6 for 1.7
35% standard -- 1d10+4+2+10+1d6 for 8.75
60% miss chance -- nada

Bonus Attack non crit main attacks (90.25%)
5% crit chance -- 1d4+1d4+4+2+10+1d6+1d6 for 1.4
35% standard -- 1d4+4+2+10+1d6 for 7.7
60% miss chance -- nada

Bonus Attack crit main attacks (9.75% chance)
5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+4+2+10+1d6+1d6 for 1.7
35% standard -- 1d10+4+2+10+1d6 for 8.75
60% miss chance -- nada

For all attacks 30.131625 avg damage having added +2 damage for CHA bonus and using the ability increase for STR, back ahead of eldritch blast and still assuming no magic pole arm.


Let's skip ahead to 17th level because there aren't a lot of big jumps until then. Giving STR and the next ability increase again for the blade warlock, foresight for both, and a 4th attack for eldritch blast it looks more like this:


Eldritch Blast (with agonizing and hex):

9.75% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+5+1d6+1d6 for 2.2425
74.25% standard -- 1d10+5+1d6 for 10.395
4% miss chance -- nada

At four attacks for 50.55 avg damage and rather nice damage.


Halberd (with pole arm master and great weapon master using -5/+10)

Main Attack
9.75% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+5+2+10+1d6+1d6 for 3.4125
70% standard -- 1d10+5+2+10+1d6 for 18.2
20.25% miss chance -- nada

Bonus Attack non crit main attacks (81.450625%)
9.75% crit chance -- 1d4+1d4+5+2+10+1d6+1d6 for 2.8275
70% standard -- 1d4+5+2+10+1d6 for 16.24
20.25% miss chance -- nada

Bonus Attack crit main attacks (18.549375% chance)
9.75% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+5+2+10+1d6+1d6 for 3.4125
70% standard -- 1d10+5+2+10+1d6 for 18.2
20.25% miss chance -- nada

For all attacks 62.76458159375 avg damage and still ahead of eldritch blast and still assuming no magic pole arm.


This allows for moderately armored on a variant human at first level. Pole arm mastery doesn't list the bonus attack as anything other than a 1d4 bonus attack so no restriction for ability modifier damage applies and the 3 attacks early gives a good advantage in damage.

Also, please let me know if my math is off. It should be good but I'm tired and ill so it's possible I missed something. If I did miss anything it would be small in end variance and my point that feats with weapons can be better than eldritch blast stands.

[Gwendol]

Now throw in the paladin smite on top of that and you'll see who pulls ahead.

[bloodshed343]

I didn't say EB was better than weapons. I said EB was better than a great sword with GWM. At most levels, it is. But it's worse than a halberd with polearm master.

[silveralen]

I didn't say EB was better than weapons. I said EB was better than a great sword with GWM. At most levels, it is. But it's worse than a halberd with polearm master.

That's only true if you take GWM before maxing strength. Which is not a great choice it must be said.

[Ashrym]

GWM improves with the paladin splash because of the fighting style rerolling low dice, as AC drops from the assumed 16 in my calculations, and with magical weapons, and with forms of advantage granted earlier like the devil's sight and darkness combo. Otherwise it's still similar but swingy with high damage hits and a lot of misses.

GWM isn't necessarily a bad choice at all, but it takes more build resources and strategy to really leverage it when pole arm master is less swingy with that extra attack to take advantage of stacking bonuses. Getting back to the paladin splash, that gives better AC early and human variant allows effective use of pole arm master at first level.

My earlier example was a basic comparison because it's a common misconception that cantrips (eldritch blast in particular) are out-damaging weapon attacks. That basic comparison can be expanded on.

The same character can still take agonizing blast and eldritch blast for a ranged attack.

Eldritch blast also has a distinct disadvantage of effects that specifically stop spells, and attack with disadvantage when next to enemies.

[silveralen]

GWM improves with the paladin splash because of the fighting style rerolling low dice.

That's the fighting style, not the feat.

[Ashrym]

That's the fighting style, not the feat.

It is. It's also relevant to the damage in the style and build because it wouldn't apply to eldritch blast.

[Rummy]

Wow! Thanks for all that math! A few notes... Assuming no magic weapons is a bad assumption. Also, great weapon master should mainly be used when you have advantage, or Bless, or both. Bless and GWM or Sharpshooter is crazy good.

[Ashrym]

Wow! Thanks for all that math! A few notes... Assuming no magic weapons is a bad assumption. Also, great weapon master should mainly be used when you have advantage, or Bless, or both. Bless and GWM or Sharpshooter is crazy good.

I think magic weapons are pretty much a given, but it is something that's argued at times and not necessary to add to demonstrate weapon damage as the higher damage so I didn't think it was worth opening up more debate on that as a tangent. We get on enough tangents as it is. ;-)

[Giant2005]

GWM improves with the paladin splash because of the fighting style rerolling low dice, as AC drops from the assumed 16 in my calculations, and with magical weapons, and with forms of advantage granted earlier like the devil's sight and darkness combo. Otherwise it's still similar but swingy with high damage hits and a lot of misses.

GWM isn't necessarily a bad choice at all, but it takes more build resources and strategy to really leverage it when pole arm master is less swingy with that extra attack to take advantage of stacking bonuses. Getting back to the paladin splash, that gives better AC early and human variant allows effective use of pole arm master at first level.

My earlier example was a basic comparison because it's a common misconception that cantrips (eldritch blast in particular) are out-damaging weapon attacks. That basic comparison can be expanded on.

The same character can still take agonizing blast and eldritch blast for a ranged attack.

Eldritch blast also has a distinct disadvantage of effects that specifically stop spells, and attack with disadvantage when next to enemies.

The difference is that the melee version is using up pretty much all of its resources to do that kind of damage while the ranged version is doing so effortlessly.
The ranged version can triple the listed damage if it actually tries to be competitive (Quickened EB via Sorc levels to cast a second one as a bonus action and a third casting as a reaction via War Caster). The melee version only has 1 reaction left to play with which is only a single attack unlike the EB's full four attacks.
Also that 16 AC target is kind of low and more suited to the melee guy. The higher the target AC, the less valuable Heavy Weapon Master becomes and the EB version pulls further ahead.

At this point I am probably nitpicking but you also screwed up the calculations for EB damage with three blasts (You didn't include the numbers for the crit, essentially treating a natural 20 as a miss).


EDIT: I don't have the DMG so I don't know how legal it is but it is possible that a Pact of the Blade Warlock could do some pretty incredible damage with his Eldritch Blast. If the Warlock' Enchanted Focus counts as a weapon, then it could be made a pact weapon and would benefit from Lifedrinker.

[Ashrym]

The difference is that the melee version is using up pretty much all of its resources to do that kind of damage while the ranged version is doing so effortlessly.
The ranged version can triple the listed damage if it actually tries to be competitive (Quickened EB via Sorc levels to cast a second one as a bonus action and a third casting as a reaction via War Caster). The melee version only has 1 reaction left to play with which is only a single attack unlike the EB's full four attacks.
Also that 16 AC target is kind of low and more suited to the melee guy. The higher the target AC, the less valuable Heavy Weapon Master becomes and the EB version pulls further ahead.

At this point I am probably nitpicking but you also screwed up the calculations for EB damage with three blasts (You didn't include the numbers for the crit, essentially treating a natural 20 as a miss).


EDIT: I don't have the DMG so I don't know how legal it is but it is possible that a Pact of the Blade Warlock could do some pretty incredible damage with his Eldritch Blast. If the Warlock' Enchanted Focus counts as a weapon, then it could be made a pact weapon and would benefit from Lifedrinker.

Fixed the oversight on 3 blasts after forgetting the crit in the total.

Don't forget advantage can be obtained earlier, the reaction for the opportunity attack isn't guaranteed, sorcery points are a finite resource that go fast at 2 per round over the day, blade warlocks can splash other classes for more damage as well, a magic weapon favors the weapon damage with an increase, agonizing blast and eldritch blast are available to the blade warlock when appropriate, and eldritch blast is a ranged attack so using it near enemies is done at disadvantage.

A quick glance at monsters looks like AC 16 is high and that most monsters have a lower AC, but the weapon user isn't required to take the -5/+10 if it's not advantageous.

Spells don't count as weapons.

[Wasum]

Thank you for all that amazing input!


By now I am playing in two next campaigns and I'm playing a paladin and a warlock - and I'm sure both of them will be great (only palyed the pala so far but he was pretty cool!)


Another question:

My Warlock now is supposed to have had contact with an alien entity somehow that made him lose his mind. Now I'm looking for a good artwork - he should have something weird and different from his connection to a great old one and I just cannot find any good kind of artwork at all. Maybe someone has a good idea for me there?