Let's ALL Read: The Thrawn Trilogy

[Yora]

Notice: We have now started reading Heir to the Empire. If you still want to join us, grab the books and start reading until you have cought up to us. We read relatively slowly, so it should be easy to join in later or took a break and lag behind. What chapter we are currently at you can see on the schedule here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18492449&postcount=31). Starting from the second page of this thread, there will be lots of unmarked spoilers for all the chapters we have already covered.

As the story goes, at the end of the 80s, Star Wars was still pretty much "those three movies", novelizations of the same, and a Marvel comic series that is still pretty obscure to most people. Until the novel Heir to the Empire came around in 1991, which was so magnificently fantastic that it kickstarted the multimedia leviathan we know today.

I read the books in the late 90s in a German translation, and from what I remember, they were indeed really quite good. And though I had planned to do so for a very long time, I never got around to read them again. No time like the present, especially with all the history that grew from it going to be rewritten to some extend or another. Instead of making some posts of what I liked and disliked in each chapter, I think it would be a lot more interesting to actually discuss the books with other people who are also reading them at the same time.

Doesn't matter if you have read the books before or not, or if you are super-familiar with Star Wars or only know the very basics. The only thing that I would guess to be neccessary is to have seen the classic trilogy and mostly remembering the characters and the story. Having people with a wide range of familiarity with Star Wars probably will be a lot more interesting than if everyone is a huge fan or everyone goes into the books completely blind.

As a brief introductory summary from what I can remember:
The story takes place five years after the destruction of the Death Star and the death of the Emperor and Darth Vader. The Rebells have been quite successful in taking control of many planets from the Empire and with the taking of the galactic capital Corruscant have reestablished the New Republic. The remaining imperial forces are highly fractured and disorganized, and are under the control of several admirals and warlords who are fighting against each other as much as against the New Republic. Han Solo and Princess Leia got married and are expecting their first kids, with Leia being one of the top leaders of the Republic government.
In this situation, Grand Admiral Thrawn returns from his station at the most distant edge of the Empire to take it upon himself to crush the Rebellion and reunite the imperial forces under a single leadership. He starts with only 4 Star Destroyers and doesn't have any superweapon like the Death Stars or Vaders Super-Star Destroyer, but makes completely up for it by being the best strategist and mastermind currently in the galaxy. Very quickly he grows from a mere nuisance to the biggest threat the New Republic has faced so far.
Meanwhile, Luke Skywalker learns that he is not the only remaining Jedi, but there have been others who are strong in the Force, who have been able to hide or evade being hunted and killed by Darth Vader. However, the influence of the Dark Side is still strong in the galaxy and these people do not turn out to be like Luke had hoped.

My idea would be to decide on some day as a starting point (in a week or so, to give people time to get the first book if they don't have it) and then progress at one chapter a day. You don't have to read one chapter every day, but we will discuss only those parts of the story that are acording to that timetable. That way we would all be talking about the same thing and not jump all over the place all the time, and I think it would be a pacing that allows people to easily catch up if they hadn't read anything for a few days and want to get back into the talk. Though if anyone has a better idea how to organize this we can do it completely different too.

Who would be on board for this, regardless of how exactly we are going to do it?

[OracleofSilence]

I've been meaning to reread this series. I'd be down with this.

[Thrawn183]

Yes, you will read. Or I will leave you to the tender care of Imperial Intelligence. Have I made myself clear?

[Zolem]

Yeay reading! Date to start?

[Yora]

Depends on whether some more people want to join in.

[Legato Endless]

You could try messaging Thrawn4. Sadly most of the rest of the dozen Grand Admirals seems to be inactive.

[Seerow]

I might join this. I read the books a year or two back, in response to people getting all bummed about them being rendered non-canon by Disney.

[Aolbain]

I'm in. Thrawn really annoyed me in Outbound Flight so we'll see if this turns out better.

[Darth Credence]

I will join in. I just re-watched the saga over the long weekend, so reading the Thrawn books sounds like a great follow up.

[TheThan]

*shrugs*

read it before, at least twice.
but its a good read so I'll join in. but i've gotta dig my books out of the closet (they're buried a huge box labeled "star wars books".) good thing you're not starting right away.

[pendell]

*Waves* I'm in.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Yora]

The clearly seems like a good number of people. Maybe some will join in later as they see the fun we're probably going to have.

I just checked again and the chapters seem to be quite short, about 100 for the whole series. Do you think we should be openning discussion on one new chapter every day, or perhaps a faster pace of two or three chapters? I don't want to breeze through it too quickly, but also not for people to get annoyed by always reading only short snippets each day. I also have no idea yet how much there will actually be to talk about per chapter.
Maybe start with 2 chapters per day and then seeing how it goes after a few days?
Unless someone has a completely different idea how to organize this. We could do that one either. I'm really just making up some rules as a blind guess what might work well.

When would you want to start? It's tuesday now, so maybe beginning on friday?

[Thrawn4]

You could try messaging Thrawn4. Sadly most of the rest of the dozen Grand Admirals seems to be inactive.
Yay, I am famous ^^

On a more serious note, I coincidentally listened to an audio drama a few weeks ago and was impressed once again by the story. So I guess I am going to join the discussion.

[TheThan]

I tend to not stop reading once I start. So I’m cool with whatever the hive mind chooses. Even if you guys lag behind me.

[OracleofSilence]

Friday sounds fine to me, and I do recall the chapters moving along fairly quickly, so two or three a day sounds fine to me. About a month for the whole series is fairly respectable.

[CWater]

I could do this, if I can get my hands on the books.:smallsmile: Helsinki library system don't fail me now..

I've read this trilogy once, but that was... over a decade go. :smalleek:


The clearly seems like a good number of people. Maybe some will join in later as they see the fun we're probably going to have.

I just checked again and the chapters seem to be quite short, about 100 for the whole series. Do you think we should be openning discussion on one new chapter every day, or perhaps a faster pace of two or three chapters? I don't want to breeze through it too quickly, but also not for people to get annoyed by always reading only short snippets each day. I also have no idea yet how much there will actually be to talk about per chapter.
Maybe start with 2 chapters per day and then seeing how it goes after a few days.
Unless someone has a completely different idea how to organize this. We could do that one either. I'm really just making up some rules as a blind guess what might work well.

When would you want to start? It's tuesday now, so maybe beginning on friday?

Maybe a chapter or two per day would work. Though would it be ok if people who have read ahead of the 'official' thread pace to post comments in spoilers, named with the chapter they've reached?

[Dragonus45]

Count me interested, and I already have the book.

[Zolem]

Two chapters a day starting Friday sounds fair. And for those, like me, who've already read the series, remember that all spoilers shall be fed to the Sarlak.

[Yora]

I think almost everyone of us have read the book at least once at some point.
Anyone peeking in here who hasn't read the books, take note how excited we all are about reading them again. They are really that good. :smallwink:

Still, discussion should be strictly kept to what has already happened in the story up to that point with no bringing up things anyone might remember happening later.
I think all the movies should be considered non-spoilers as well. But when it comes to mentioning details from any other books, comics, or games, I would say those things should always be spoilered. Fortunately, the series was very early in expanded universe and does not build onto anything from non-movie sources. Because of this, anyone not reading the spoilers won't be left out of any actual talk about the books.


Maybe a chapter or two per day would work. Though would it be ok if people who have read ahead of the 'official' thread pace to post comments in spoilers, named with the chapter they've reached?
I think if we do that we pretty soon have people who complete the whole series in two weeks and there will be three or four paralel discussions going on at the same time, and the same scenes will be discussed several times by small groups who don't have contact with each other. Anyone can read and I don't think it would be a problem to keep discussing important scenes even though talk of other chapters has already started. But I think we should have one commonly agreed cutoff point beyond which everything we have to say should be kept for later.

[TheThan]

I don’t know what this Sarlak you speak of is. However I do know what a sarlacc is. :smallbiggrin:


Since I was breaking out the big ol’ box of star wars books I thought I’d catalog my star wars book collection (which I could have sworn I’d done at least once before). Anyway after conducting the tally, I have about 85 books. But there are some gaps here and there. I’m not surprised I have so many, but also strangely disappointed that I didn’t quite break 100.

So the completionist in me makes me want to go book shopping.

[nyjastul69]

Me too please! I just got confirmation from my BiL that he still has them. I should have them within a coupla days. Hopefully by Fri. I borrowed the first two from him when they came out, but I don't recall reading the 3rd book. I don't recall any of the series TBH. Should be fun!

ETA: Yay! My sister dropped off the books today, so I'm definitely in.

[TheThan]

so are we going to start a new thread for the reading parts? or just work from here?

I think it would be better to start a new thread to help keep confusion down in case others decide to jump on the bandwagon partway through this endeavor.

[Cikomyr]

One little touch I loved about these books is that Zhan really respected the opening formula of the movies in his books.

Think about it. In all three original movies, what do we see first following the opening crawl?

- the Empire Star Destroyer pursuing the Tantive IV
- The Empire super Star Destroyer launching probes
- A Star Destroyer reaching the Death Star, and launching a shuttle

What do we see in the opening of all three of Zhan's books?

- The Imperial Star Destroyer Chimaera gathering intelligence
- the Imperial Armada assaulting Myrkr
- the Imperial Armada assaulting Ukio

[hamishspence]

It isn't just TTT - almost every Zahn book, with the exception of Outbound Flight, "opens with a Star Destroyer".

[Yora]

As they all should.

But yeah, new thread or not? Seems like this is something we have to decide right now.
We're only on the first page and I could easily add a new introduction to the first post. I don't really care either way.

[nyjastul69]

I don't have a preference either way. I haven't done this type of thing before.

[Dragonus45]

I say keep the thread if only to avoid cluttering the forum up more.

[pendell]

I recommend we just use this thread here. It's conveniently located, we're not breaking any rules by doing so , and it saves other people the trouble of having to look around in the thread for the link to the successor thread.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Yora]

Then we can conveniently start talking about the books on page 2. :smallbiggrin:

[TheThan]

I don't have a preference either way. I haven't done this type of thing before.

Trailblazing new ground.

as for whether we're should start a new thread. if everyone wants to continue with this one. that's fine by me.

[Yora]

Okay, let's start then.

From here on, this thread will be nothing but unmarked spoilers for Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising, and The Last Command.

Every day, we will open discussion on two more chapters. (Though we might possible change the pace if this turns out too slow for most of us.) If you already read ahead, please don't talk about those chapters until we all reached that point. If you lag behind, just read on until you have cought up with us and then rejoin us. If you absolutely have to talk about anything that is from other sources than the chapters we have covered or the original three movies, please put all of that into spoiler tags that are labled with the work you are talking about.
Since I believe pretty much all of us are in Europe or America, time zones should not be a problem. If you are in Europe and stay up late, don't start discussing new chapters until the next morning, when the day has also ended for our readers from America.

Discussion for chapters 1 and 2 is now open. The current schedule is as follows:
Dec 5th » Heir to the Empire, chapters 1+2
Dec 6th » Chapters 3+4
Dec 7th » Chapters 5+6
Dec 8th » Chapters 7+8
Dec 9th » Chapters 9+10
Dec 10th » Chapters 11+12
Dec 11th » Chapters 13+14
Dec 12th » Chapters 15+16
Dec 13th » Chapters 17+18
Dec 14th » Chapters 19+20
Dec 15th » Chapters 21+22
Dec 16th » Chapters 23+24
Dec 17th » Chapters 25+26
Dec 18th » Chapters 27+28
Dec 19th » Chapters 29+30
Dec 20th » Chapters 31+32
Dec 21st » Dark Force Rising, chapters 1+2
Dec 22nd » Chapters 3+4
Dec 23rd » Chapters 5+6
Dec 24th » Christmas
Dec 25th » Christmas
Dec 26th » Chapters 7+8
Dec 27th » Chapters 9+10
Dec 28th » Chapters 11+12
Dec 29th » Chapters 13+14
Dec 30th » Chapters 15+16
Dec 31st » New Years
Jan 1st » Chapters 17+18
Jan 2nd » Chapters 19+20
Jan 3rd » Chapters 21+22
Jan 4th » Chapters 23+24
Jan 5th » Chapters 25+26
Jan 6th » Chapters 27+28
Jan 7th » Chapter 29
Jan 8th » The Last Command, chapters 1+2
Jan 9th » Chapters 3+4
Jan 10th » Chapters 5+6
Jan 11th » Chapters 7+8
Jan 12th » Chapters 9+10
Jan 13th » Chapters 11+12
Jan 14th » Chapters 13+14
Jan 15th » Chapters 15+16
Jan 16th » Chapters 17+18
Jan 17th » Chapters 19+20
Jan 18th » Chapters 21+22
Jan 19th » Chapters 23+24
Jan 20th » Chapters 25+26
Jan 21st » Chapters 27+28+29

May the Force be with you.


http://enigmasmovies.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/star-wars-logo.jpg

[CWater]

Yay! :smallcool:

(T_T I will have to wait until Monday though, can't get the books before that)

[TheThan]

Chapter One

In chapter One we meet our main antagonists for the duration.

The famous Grand Admiral Thrawn (you may have heard of him)
We learn that Thrawn is a tactical genius and has an interesting quirk of studying the art of his enemies; believing it gives him insight into how they think and operate. Thrawn is not human, with blue skin, black hair and glowing red eyes.

And captain Gilad Pellaeon.
Pellaeon is a classically trained imperial commander; he’s a stickler for military protocol and occasionally chafes against Thrawn’s maverick ways. Aside from that he has complete loyalty to Thrawn. An interesting aspect of Pellaeon is that he was at the battle of Endor when the deathstar blew and managed to order something along the lines of organized retreat.

We also meet Rhuk,
Rhuk is a Norgi “death commando” and Thrawn’s personal bodyguard. He becomes important MUCH later.

Chapter one is little more than an opening, we learn that Thrawn has ordered a reconnaissance mission to a planet called Obroa-skai and then quickly destroys a taskforce sent after him. But not much else is revealed about Thrawn’s scheme.

Chapter 2:

Chapter two introduces us to our main protagonists.

Han Solo-
not much to talk about Han is Han, he’s got chewie as a sidekick and the Falcon. He and chewie as well, Wedge Antilles and a guy named Lt. Page (I don’t think he has a first name) are trying to hire smugglers to use as freight haulers to help jump start intergalactic commerce. It’s not going well though.

Leia Organa Solo-
we learn that Leia is pregnant with twins, and that she is being run ragged trying to put a functioning government together.

And Luke Skywalker-
We learn early on that Obi-wan’s force ghost is going to stop visiting him, and he gives him the mandate to start finding and training new Jedi. While he’s troubled by this and other things; he takes it upon himself to try to instruct Leia (a HUGE project that turns out to be).
We also learn that the Star Wars universe has hot chocolate. Awesome

[OracleofSilence]

Chapter 1:

I finished these chapters mere moments ago. It's somewhat strange to think that this was likely the first time an Imperial character, let alone a naval officer was given a more complex personality then generic villainy, their personal flavor of plot mandated incompetence, and a slavish devotion to duty. Pellaeon reminds me that yes, in fact, he may not be as attention grabbing as Thrawn, but he is still probably the best imperial character out there, and Thrawn sets the mood by pulling information out of thin air, as is his wont. I can't really hold it against him though, it's more or less his deal, and it's so artistically done.

Chapter 2:

Now this one got me thinking. I honestly can't remember whether Luke's paranoia about the emperor's lingering presence is founded, at least in this series, so that's a plus. I believe this is the first mention of the Twins anywhere, so that's worth noting. And Han Solo does Han Solo things. With Wedge for some reason. This chapter in particular was really strange to read, realizing that a good deal of history has now been filled in between this and RoTJ. Even more so because I can't think of any inconsistencies. Not really much to say about plot developments on this side as far as I can think of though. Zahn really took his time with the main cast's plot in this one.

The whole mention of the Twins in this chapter actually managed to depress me. They built that plot up for ALMOST 20 YEARS, and it fell apart in truly spectacular fashion. Like holy crap, it was awful. My opinion at least. It's a pity too. They were the best part of the NJO (at least most of the time), not that that really counts for much. But even that was retroactively ruined. GG. Legacy of the Force, GG.

[Yora]

Hey! I said no spoilers for later parts of the books. There might be people here who havn't read the books or have forgotten most of it.
No matter how artistically done. :smallbiggrin:

I was quite surprised how straight Zahn goes to the point.

"This is not a cattle market in Shaum Hii, Lieutenant Tschel," he said at last, keeping his voice calm but icy cold. "This is the bridge of an Imperial Star Destroyer. Routine information is not - repeat, not - simply shouted in the general direction of its intended recipient. Is that clear?"

Spinning around with a reasonably good imitation of a proper military turn, the lieutenant headed back toward the communications console.
There is so much we have already learned in this very short scene. And already I find myself wanting to ignore my rule about not discussing later chapters and other stories. :smallamused: But I think even with just this first chapter, we do already know quite a bit about both Palaeon and Thrawn, and their situation. These are not the imperial officers we remember from the movies. These two people have a style of leadership very different from Darth Vader or Tarkin. Yes, Thrawn sends the scouts to certain death, but as soon as he has the information he needs he calls them back to safety. Both he and Palaeon are dealing with men under their command who can not keep up with them and are frankly disappointments, but they both are showing patience and restraint and remain as polite as they can in the situation. People are not punished on a whim, but rather they both try to teach their men and make them to the officers they want.
It also shows very well in what poor condition the Empire as a whole is. They neither have the ships they would like to have, nor the people they want to have, so they have to be more economic with the resources they have and not waste anything.

Now, I've been reading quite a lot about starting a story recently, and so I've specifically have been looking out for this: But have you noticed that so far nothing really happened? These two chapters really were nothing but pure exposition. Almost everything that is being said is either a reminder of how Return of the Jedi ended or a very quick update on how things have changed and where everyone is now. And having also read quite a bit of rather poor literature recently, I think these two chapters really flow very easily and naturally. I've read the books before 15 years ago and I am very familiar with most other works that take place just right before and these books, so there really wasn't anything I didn't already know. Still it wasn't in any way dreadful but very readable. This could all have been one dreadful infodump, but there is nothing of that kind. I am really impressed, that is some serious writing skill there.

Also, I find it very interesting that the very first thing in Chapter 2 is "Obi-Wan is gone and won't come back". Seems like Zahn wanted that to be out the door as quickly as possible. :smallbiggrin:

Also: Yay, it's Page! I had totally forgotten he originally started in this story. Again, Zahn is extremely quick, telling us all there is to know about the man in just two sentences. He is damn good at infiltration.

[OracleofSilence]

In my defense, that sentence started out perfectly innocently, but by the time it was done, I just couldn't resist.

But it is absolutely true. These to chapters are indeed some of the most enjoyable infodumps I've ever read. Also worth noting: it manages to introduce 6 and a half new characters without any feeling forced or unecceary, and beyond that, most feeling really natural, and like they were always part of the setting.

[Yora]

*counting fingers*
Oh yeah, completely forgot about Talon Karrde. I think at this point nobody really would see it comming that Palaeon, Winter, Karrde, and Page, as well as the twins, will all become characters with lots of appearances, many of them ranking among the most important non-movie characters.

[OracleofSilence]

On characters.

Wedge too. Yes he had been in all of the original trilogy, but I wouldn't call him a character. He practically had as much development in that one paragraph as he got in all three films combined.

[TheThan]

Now I feel bad for not mentioning Winter. She is indeed awesome.

As for Karrde, I didn’t mention him because his is nothing more than a name drop at this point. He’ll get introduced properly soon enough.

[pendell]

Notes on the chapters , supplemental to other people's comments:

-- Thrawn embodies Sun Tzu's adage. "Know your enemy and know yourself." He spends a great deal of time studying the psychology of his opponents. This is what allows him to win the initial engagement in chapter 1 with minimal losses, using a tactic which flabbergasts Captain Pelleon. The Marg Sabl closure -- whatever that is -- is a tactic which would not work on any second-year Imperial Academy cadet, from Pelleon's reaction. Fortunately, they are not facing an Imperial Academy graduate, but an Elomin who has a particular psychological flaw against this attack.

Thrawn launches a probing attack to test the enemy's skills and defenses, from this deduces the nature of the enemy he is fighting, and responds with a tactic tailored to that enemy's weakness. The loss of the scouts was regrettable, but in the nasty balance sheet of war the information gained saved many more lives in the battle to follow than if Thrawn had attempted to fight it blind. Intel is to genius as hay is to horses. Without it, Thrawn might as well be a stormtrooper.

This is what makes him a dangerous opponent.

From the perspective of a player of Tie Fighter and X wing alliance, 4 Assault Frigates versus a single star destroyer seems to be a very even match up. If I was to rig this up in the X-wing alliance simulator, I would expect to lose one, possibly two, of the frigates in exchange for the destroyer. I would expect the destroyer to be at least crippled. Still, it is winnable if the ISD can focus all its attention on a single frigate at a time.

The rebel force would have been well advised to remain at a distance from the ISD, call for help, use their superiority in star fighters to expose the Chimera, then go for a focused attack in conjunction with a starfighter assault to bring down the shields at critical points such as the bridge.

But it didn't happen. It seems as if the rebel command was entirely at a loss to deal with Thrawn's attack.

Pelleon seems to be a bog-standard product of the Imperial academy. Competent, disciplined, but utterly unimaginative. He serves well as a right-hand to someone like Thrawn, but is unlikely to hold things together on his own. Which is presumably why the Empire is in the fix it's in.

Luke ... not much to say there. We say goodbye to Obi-wan , who states that Luke is the 'first of the new Jedi.' No foreshadowing there, is there?

Leia is three months pregnant and in Jedi training.

In the cantina scene, it appears that Wedge is actually a distraction. The other smuggler identifies him as the backup man, but is so absorbed with him he entirely misses Paige. A classic bait-and-switch.

Some discussion on the strategic situation. The Empire is reduced to a quarter of its former territory but is still evenly matched with the New Republic in terms of military capability. Coruscant is in the hands of the New Republic and is intact.

Han is attempting to enlist smugglers in the alliance cause. Talon Karrde is mentioned as the man who has stepped into Jabba's slime-trail. We'll see how that works for him.

All in all, a good re-start to the franchise after the several years hiatus which occurred after Return of the Jedi.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Yora]

It was called "Return of the Jedi", so the idea that Luke would train more Jedi wasn't Zahns idea. He did however take that implication from the movie and laid the foundation for an actual new Jedi Order, beginning with Leia as the first student and her children being the next two future recruits.

Heir to the Empire wasn't the very first EU story. There had been a few before. Had there been any hints about a new Jedi Order in any of those? I know Leias Force training does play a role in Dark Empire, which followed very soon after Heir to the Empire, but I believe that comic most probably took that idea from the novel.

[OracleofSilence]

They were all Han and Lando related. Very serial fiction style. Han Solo and the Something of Something or other. And Splinter of the Minds Eye but that doesn't count, and was set between Episode 4 and 5. The first New Jedi related stuff was possible the Jedi Prince series. I haven't read it though, so I have no idea. It was post RoTJ, but pre Thrawn, and was written about a year after Heir to the Empire. It's a YA series.

More obviously, Jedi Search (the first book in the Jedi Academy Trilogy) was written in '94. It was very much NJ focused.

[hamishspence]

It was called "Return of the Jedi", so the idea that Luke would train more Jedi wasn't Zahns idea. He did however take that implication from the movie and laid the foundation for an actual new Jedi Order, beginning with Leia as the first student and her children being the next two future recruits.

Heir to the Empire wasn't the very first EU story. There had been a few before. Had there been any hints about a new Jedi Order in any of those? I know Leias Force training does play a role in Dark Empire, which followed very soon after Heir to the Empire, but I believe that comic most probably took that idea from the novel.

It's a plot point in the Marvel Star Wars comics - which were still going during ROTJ and after - to 1986.

Luke has several trainees - but refuses to give them more than the basics, for fear one will turn into the next Vader.

None of Luke's trainees go dark during this period at least.

[nyjastul69]

Very enjoyable opening. As noted, the greater depth of the antagonists is in sharp contrast to the cardboard cutouts from the films.

Not much to see in the 2nd chapter. We know the characters, so we basically get an update on their situations. It was nice to see Wedge get some character development.

Overall the 2 chapters set the stage very well. The only part that I recalled after rereading it was the bit about Thrawn studying his opponents through art and other atypical means.

[Seerow]

I guess I'm late to the party (technically late enough I could move on to chapters 3 and 4 but... not tonight). This intro really served to remind me just how much I had forgotten. Certain names (hi Karede!) twigged memories, but I had completely forgotten that Leia's pregnancy was featured in the books, and had no recollection at all of Obi Wan's goodbye to Luke. And while of course I remembered Thrawn, Captain P (which shall be his name henceforth in all discussion. No negotiations) was a character I didn't remember or recognize at all when reading.

I guess what I'm saying is memory is a funny thing. It should be interesting going forward, especially seeing if how things actually play out live up to my vague recollections.

[Dragonus45]

Honestly Captain P is easily the best character in the entire EU. Yes even better than Thrawn.

[nyjastul69]

I guess what I'm saying is memory is a funny thing. It should be interesting going forward, especially seeing if how things actually play out live up to my vague recollections.

This sums up my thoughts exactly.

Hazy memory is a weird thing. For example, I don't think I liked the opening scene as much the first time, as I did this time. I thought the book should have started with the familiar characters and moved on from there. Opening with the Thrawn scene really is a better choice though. On to reading ch. 3 & 4 for breakfast.

[pendell]

Chapters 3 and 4.

Chapter 3: We meet Talon Karrde and Mara Sue... erm, excuse me, Mara Jade, and Karrde's two pets, Sturm and Drang.

"Second in command" DOES sound suspiciously like "bunk buddy", but Mara really does have the qualifications to be excellent in Karrde's organization. For reasons which will be revealed later in the story.

We meet the Ysalamir for the first time -- I guess it's not much of a spoiler to mention that the ecology of the planet is well thought-out. Various predators, such as Talon's vornskyrs, hunt using the force. Thus prey on this planet, such as the Ysalamir, developed the ability to hide themselves from the force, to create a Force-dead bubble. This is a kick in the teeth to Jedi power, and it means Thrawn and company aren't instantly protein on encountering them.

A pity, I think, that Ysalamir never make much appearance outside of Zahn's stories. Or , indeed, in any of his stories after Last Command. I guess people wanted stories about Jedi, and Ysalamir are an unnecessary complicating factor.

Talon is revealed as cunning -- I guess you'd have to be to survive as a smuggler. His profession is outlawed both by the New Republic and by the Empire, so he walks a fine line of neutrality between them.

Offering to assist the Empire in the removal of Ysalamiri kills several birds with one stone; first, it legitimizes his presence on the planet so they won't instantly incinerate his base from orbit once they detect it. Which they surely will, if they spend any amount of time there.

It also gives him intelligence on their activities. Intelligence is Karrde's lifeblood as it is Thrawn's, so free intel and insight into Imperial activity, by their leave, is nothing to sneeze at.

I'd still charge them , though, if for no other reason than to allay their suspicions.

Also, I was kidding but only just about Mara Jade. She is an important character we'll obviously be seeing a lot of. She's good at a lot of things, liked or feared by many, but she's not really a Sue because A) she does have some serious flaws in her arrogance and her broken personality B) she has the decency to not suck up all the oxygen in the room and let the main cast be heroes from time to time.

Also, it's a character I like.

Chapter 4:

Thrawn meets Joruus C'baoth. First mention of the Outbound Flight project. Pelleaon continues to play Dr. Watson to Thrawn's Holmes, reacting as an ordinary man or character would in each situation, contrasting the villainy of both Thrawn and Joruus.

Thrawn again demonstrates that he is not a traditional villain in that he does not use force unless it is first used on him. He likewise has to work hard to woo Joruus C'baoth -- but he still shows himself a villain in that he's more than willing to kidnap Leia's children to use as bargaining chips.

So he's still a villain. He's just not an over the top villain as Vader and Tarkin are. He doesn't destroy perfectly good habitable worlds just as a demonstration. He's more dangerous because he is a self-controlled, rational villain, rather than a madman.

Ah, yes. Thrawn expects as Dark Jedi to be guarding the mountain. This predates the Rule of Two first shown in the prequels by about a decade. It would have been nice if Lucas had given Zahn some clue as to how much of his universe would be completely ignored in Lucas' own world-building, but that's the cost of being an author in the Star Wars universe. In exchange for exposure and book sales undreamed of as a regular author, your characters and setting are not your own, and can be changed on Lucas' whim. Or at least that was the case until he sold out to Disney.

Still, it doesn't impact the story much at this time; the fact that Thrawn expects a Dark Jedi implies that he doesn't know much about the Sith. Which is reasonable. He's an alien from beyond the rim and the Emperor was not eager to share his secrets in this matter. To the speciesist Emperor, doubtless the Grand Admiral was no more than a tool, to be used but not to be given any more knowledge than he needed to carry out his mission. Such information would be in the Jedi archives, but doubtless those were removed by the Emperor and were not accessible to Thrawn.

So if Thrawn expects there to be a Dark Jedi, it's because it is a reasonable guess and he knows nothing about the Sith to contradict that information. Perhaps the rumors of Dark Jedi serve the Emperor's purpose, even if the Emperor trained no new apprentices while Darth Vader was his servant. As for Darth Vader's own attempts at training apprentices ... there's a video game about that, I believe.

Joruus C'baoth refuses to submit to anyone in dominance, protecting both his own people from the Imperials and the Imperial 'guests' from his outraged citizens. This is something that may come back to haunt Thrawn.

Mention is made of the Outbound Flight project. It is implied that Thrawn was in charge of an Imperial task force assigned to intercept and destroy the craft. We later learn in the book of the same name that is not strictly true. Perhaps Thrawn has reasons to play his cards close to his chest on this matter, even with Captain Pelleon.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[nyjastul69]

Well, this is where hazy memory becomes opaque. The only thing from these chapters that are even vaguely familiar are Talon's pets.

Talon's decision to help Thrawn seems to be a wise move at this point. I don't recall who Mara Jade is, but she'll be a key character. (My EU-fu is weak.)

Thrawn is pulling together some interesting things. An unpredictable force user, a method to resist the force, a cloaking shield and a 'trivial' piece of technology. I enjoyed the dialogue between Thrawn and C'baoth.

I find it interesting that the ysalamiri weren't used much in the EU. They seem like they could be compelling story elements.

I'm finding it difficult not to read ahead. I think it'll be more fun if I don't though.

[OracleofSilence]

Ysalamiri were used occasionally. A bit in the NJO series, if memory serves, a bit in I,Jedi (although I'm not sure), and spottily elsewhere. The issue is that they were always one of the "wacky" parts of the EU, so many authors ignored them, and when they were used, it was normally kinda dumb.

[nyjastul69]

Ysalamiri were used occasionally. A bit in the NJO series, if memory serves, a bit in I,Jedi (although I'm not sure), and spottily elsewhere. The issue is that they were always on of the "wacky" parts of the EU, so many authors ignored them, and when they were used, it was normally kinda dumb.

It's just that something that can inhibit the force like that seems like it would be a major EU plot point somehow. I suppose it might have been ignored a bit because it seems like a GM fiat kinda solution to force problems. It kinda just hand waves the force away.

[TheThan]

I don’t really see much that heavily contradicts Lucas’s vision so far.

Firstly, Joruus C'baoth is referred to as a “dark Jedi” not a “Sith Lord”. He doesn’t go by Darth whatever either so he was never a Sith Apprentice. So the rule of two is technically still intact. Plus he’s a clone (a mad one at that if you haven't gathered from the text), so it’s hard to know where cloned Jedi fall into the scheme of things. Since he’s the only one we know of that was cloned then it safe to assume the emperor didn’t know what to do with him either so stuck him on Wayland as much for safekeeping as anything else.

The outbound flight project happens several years before the outbreak of the clone wars. That period of time was time skipped over by Lucas so he doesn’t directly remove the outbound flight, or the existence of jorus C’baoth from the timeline.

The minor tech that Thrawn mentions does not directly counter Lucas’s vision of the clone wars either.

Lucas never claims that the Kamino are the only people in the galaxy to employ cloning technology. Therefore spaarti cloning cylinders could have also been used in the clone wars to produce clones faster; albeit at the risk of the clones being insane.

[Zolem]

Ysalamiri were used occasionally. A bit in the NJO series, if memory serves, a bit in I,Jedi (although I'm not sure), and spottily elsewhere. The issue is that they were always one of the "wacky" parts of the EU, so many authors ignored them, and when they were used, it was normally kinda dumb.

Their use in I, Jedi was actually perhaps the best use of them ever. Also a reason they aren't used often is that the Jedi keep it hush hush. Even most Jedi don't know about them, info is that restricted.

Also, regarding cloning tech, it is canon that Kamino clones were supplemented late in the war by batches of quick grown clones from other clone manufacturers, it was just completely off record. One of them was Spaarti, who had the quickest growth formula available but also had the lowest quality clones that required more rapid replacement, only lasting five years at best. Once Kamino stopped cloning for the Empire, only low quality clones were left. Hence the massive quality drop between EP. III and IV.

[Yora]

Well, this is where hazy memory becomes opaque. The only thing from these chapters that are even vaguely familiar are Talon's pet's.

Talon's decision to help Thrawn seems to be a wise move at this point. I don't recall who Mara Jade is, but she'll be a key character. (My EU-fu is weak.)

Thank you a lot for this comment. Everyone else: There is at least someone among us who goes into the books relatively blind. So No Spoilers is serious, not just simply "let's pretend we don't all know what's happening.

That being said, Karrdes dogs are called Sturm and Drang? Seriously?! :smallamused: That's almost like calling them War and Peace or Pride and Prejudice.
As in the previous chapters, characters are introduced very quickly and effectively. While Karrde took up Jabbas position in the region, his style is less like Jabba and more like Lando. Not quite sure if it's even meant to be mysterious forshadowing, but it is made really clear that Maras "secret past" was somewhere in the imperial forces.

What Thrawn describes the Emperor having done at Endor sounds a lot like Battle Meditation that is mentioned a few times in Knights of the Old Republic.
I always found it weird that they made up such a power with huge range, that actually serves no purpose in the game. But it seems they just needed some special power to make Bastilla special without adding a unique game mechanic, and someone remembered this one instead of making up something new.

Thrawn "tricking" C'baoth into wanting apprentices felt rather blunt, though.
Yes, the next scene they talk how he is mad, but during the rest of the encounter he really didn't like any attempts to manipulate him. Even if he actually wants it,Thrawn seems to be rather sloppy in the way he brings it up.

[OracleofSilence]

Their use in I, Jedi was actually perhaps the best use of them ever. Also a reason they aren't used often is that the Jedi keep it hush hush. Even most Jedi don't know about them, info is that restricted.

Agreed. I do however, recall some absolutely ridiculous uses of them elsewhere.


Also, regarding cloning tech, it is canon that Kamino clones were supplemented late in the war by batches of quick grown clones from other clone manufacturers, it was just completely off record. One of them was Spaarti, who had the quickest growth formula available but also had the lowest quality clones that required more rapid replacement, only lasting five years at best. Once Kamino stopped cloning for the Empire, only low quality clones were left. Hence the massive quality drop between EP. III and IV.

Actually, if I recall correctly, by Episode IV, almost all Stormtroopers were conscripts, not clones. Also, in characteristic movie fashion, they were quite effective when they weren't up against main characters (see the opening scene of Episode IV).

On a more positive note, yay Mara! Overall one of my favorite characters, although perhaps one of the more inconsistently used (I still say this series was her high point). Karrde gets his introduction, and gives a more muted initial impression then I recalled, less manipulation and more controlled reasonableness, and Joruus C'boath remains one of the least irritating plot devices in Star Wars. Perhaps his manipulation is... quickly handled, but he isn't over used, he stays in the background, and he doesn't overstay his welcome when he does pop up.

[nyjastul69]

... Thrawn "tricking" C'baoth into wanting apprentices felt rather blunt, though.
Yes, the next scene they talk how he is mad, but during the rest of the encounter he really didn't like any attempts to manipulate him. Even if he actually wants it,Thrawn seems to be rather sloppy in the way he brings it up.

I agree. This struck me as I was reading it and forgot to mention that it felt too blunt. C'baoth swings about far too easily.

The book is more visual for me this time around. With exposure to games and the internet, I know what some of these species look like now, or I can quickly look them up. Such wasn't the case when I first read them.

Speaking of visuals, Thrawn has always looked and sounded like Leader Desslok from Star Blazers to me.

[Aotrs Commander]

Watching with interest, since for me, this trilogy, along with TIE Fighter, form the absolute pinnicle of the franchise. (So much so that its likely regulation to nonexistance (as opposed to an existance of "could maybe have happened or happened broadly similarly, but in a different way) has me completely cold for the new move continuity.)

Come to that, in my top three or four books/sereis of books, like, period.

[Legato Endless]

He doesn't destroy perfectly good habitable worlds just as a demonstration. He's more dangerous because he is a self-controlled, rational villain, rather than a madman.


This I think is part of what elevates him to being one of the most memorable aspects of the franchise. The characterization is better done even than the standard pragmatistic antagonist, as Thrawn's resistance to eliminating something of value is a major defining trait for him, for both good and ill.



Still, it doesn't impact the story much at this time; the fact that Thrawn expects a Dark Jedi implies that he doesn't know much about the Sith. Which is reasonable. He's an alien from beyond the rim and the Emperor was not eager to share his secrets in this matter. To the speciesist Emperor, doubtless the Grand Admiral was no more than a tool, to be used but not to be given any more knowledge than he needed to carry out his mission. Such information would be in the Jedi archives, but doubtless those were removed by the Emperor and were not accessible to Thrawn.

This something else that I think elevates Zahn above much of what came later. He always considers how things worked, and realistically decides the flow of information would look like. Later entries in the EU just blindly assume EVERYONE in the galaxy has the same knowledge as the standard viewer of the events of the trilogy, despite how little that makes sense.


It's just that something that can inhibit the force like that seems like it would be a major EU plot point somehow. I suppose it might have been ignored a bit because it seems like a GM fiat kinda solution to force problems. It kinda just hand waves the force away.

Well yes, that's a pretty apt summary. The Ysalamiri are a fairly naked plot device to level the field against force sensitives. Contrast this with the Giant's more variegated scenarios for blunting V's efficacy in Oots. And yeah, wacky seems pretty apt. A uniquely evolved lizard somehow utterly negating Space Pantheism is a bit strange in the context of the more mystical original trilogy, but I get why Zahn did it, and it fits much better with the addition of the prequels.

[pendell]

Ah, a fellow Tie fighter veteran! What do you think of a matchup between 4 Assault Frigates[assume similar to the Nebulon-B Modified we encountered in game] and an ISD II?

I also enjoyed the books and the games, in which Thrawn also showed up.

I just acquired the 20th anniversary edition of 'Heir to The Empire'. Timothy Zahn had some enlightening comments. I can't print all of them, but a few should be 'fair use'.

On Thrawn:

The star wars movies revolved around villains who led by coercion and fear. That may work for short-range operation ... but it's not so good long-range or long-term.

So I decided to do something different to try to create a commander who could lead by loyalty.

What qualities does such a commander have to have?

The first, obviously, is strategic and tactical skill. His troops must believe that any opreation they're going into has a good chance of success, with as few casualties on their side as possible.

There will be many other examples of Thrawn's tactical skill throughout the book, but here's the first: He defeats an entire New Republic task force without, apparently, ever even bothering to leave his meditation room.



On Winter:


One of the best parts about writing Heir was the opportunity to create new characters and fit them into the Star Wars universe. Winter was the first person I introduced into the "good guy" side of the equation.

Aside from her general usefulness as a character, she also gave me the opportunity to express my opinion that Leia always seemed too tomboyish to fit comfortable into the role of a soft, pampered member of the aristocracy.


On Karrde, Sturm und Drang:

"Sturm und Drang" [storm and stress] was an eighteenth century German romantic literary movement emphasizing struggles of the individual against society. I though those names would appeal to Karrde, whom I saw as being an educated, pun-loving sort.


On Mount Tantiss:

Tantiss was named after Tantalus, a son of Zeus who was admitted to the company of the gods -- and then abused the privilege. This seemed to fit the Emperor -- he had the gift of the Jedi, but had abused his power to enslave the galaxy.


An incidental spelling notation: C'baoth is pronunced is pronunced SA-bay-oth, with the first vowel pronounced like the 'a' in 'has'.

On Battle Meditation -- though it would not be so-called in this book and only be dignified with it in KOTOR, I believe -- :


I borrowed this from Sauron's driving of his forces in The Lordo fthe Rings. Much as I sympathized with the Alliance, I felt there had to be something going on beneath the surface to explain their victory at Endor.

It's also, I think, consistent with Palpatine's pride and nature. Endor was to be his victory over the Rebellion, and he would have made sure he could claim it as such.


Also, Zahn had assumed that the Clone Wars were fought by a human-normal Republic against an enemy who used clones. Given the knowledge he had at the time, this was a reasonable assumption. After all, why do you need clones if you had an entire galaxy to draw military resources from? But a smaller player out for power, a tyrant in making , would need to make up for a lack of resources by mass-producing soldiers. So it was reasonable that mass-producing human soldiers is something the villains would do.

The fact that this was done by the Republic in the later prequels doesn't alter that assessment, in my view. And we now know from the prequels that it was Palpatine who ordered them from Kamino. Palpatine certainly was a villain and his intended use of the clones was certainly nefarious.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Legato Endless]

Also, Zahn had assumed that the Clone Wars were fought by a human-normal Republic against an enemy who used clones. Given the knowledge he had at the time, this was a reasonable assumption. After all, why do you need clones if you had an entire galaxy to draw military resources from? But a smaller player out for power, a tyrant in making , would need to make up for a lack of resources by mass-producing soldiers. So it was reasonable that mass-producing human soldiers is something the villains would do.

It's also the more reasonable assumption based off real life naming conventions of military conflict. The winner gets to name the war, and they usually think about the war in terms of whom they defeated, not what they used to win.

[HasSIn]

This is great. I will be definitely joining you. :smallsmile: I've never read the books, but I've been meaning to for quite some time. I probably won't be able to post every day, but hopefully I can catch up. Anyway, here is my take, as a first time reader, on the first two chapters:

Chapter 1

An interesting and fast-flowing chapter in spite of it being an exposition dump, as has been already mentioned. And we meet Thrawn right away. I've heard a lot about him. He is supposed to be the greatest villain in SW Universe, or at least so I were told. He does look quite threating and is a military genius, so I'm curious whether he will live up to my rather high expectations. Also, I wonder whether lieutenant Tschel will play a bigger role later in the story and become the sort of officer Cpt. Pellaeon wants him to be. I would like that. By the way this chapter contains my favorite line so far: "Which meant that when the Executor died, so also did a disproportionate fraction of the best young and midlevel officers and crewers." I like how with this one word Zahn can convey so much about his character. I think that is some quality writing.

Chapter 2

There is not much to say about this chapter, only that it was a lot denser and harder to get through. We reunite with our old heroes, but nothing really happens. The characters seem to be the same. We meet several new characters, but at least for now they are not particularly intriguing. And as someone said above, I also find it interesting that Zahn starts out with Ben Kenobi spirit disappearing for good. It's like he thought of him as a potential Deus Ex-Machina and he wanted to get rid of it as soon as possible.

Tomorrow I will try to catch up. :smallwink:

[TheThan]

What Thrawn describes the Emperor having done at Endor sounds a lot like Battle Meditation that is mentioned a few times in Knights of the Old Republic.
I always found it weird that they made up such a power with huge range, that actually serves no purpose in the game. But it seems they just needed some special power to make Bastilla special without adding a unique game mechanic, and someone remembered this one instead of making up something new.


Yeah I’m pretty sure it is battle meditation. I remember it being a team buff or somesuch in KOTOR.


Ah, a fellow Tie fighter veteran! What do you think of a matchup between 4 Assault Frigates[assume similar to the Nebulon-B Modified we encountered in game] and an ISD II?

You can count me in that category.
Assuming the book is referring to these (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Assault_Frigate_Mark_I); the ISD Loses. According to their specks, the squadron packs 60 turboladers between them. The ISD is out numbered and not able to bring its full firepower to bear on a more than one target at a time. they're a mach firepower wise, but they have the benifit of not all being focused down at once. The frigates also pack more fighters in total (8 squadrons for 96 individual fighters, vs 72 ties), which are going to be a mix (lets assume a 50/50 mix here) of X-wings and Y-wings. Both of which carry proton torpedos.

However I don’t think the Chimera is alone; I think it’s with a support fleet, smaller cruisers and frigates providing cover and support for it. Basically the Chimera is acting like a command ship. So in this case, not much of a fight for the Chimera; however the crew does need some experience and four assault frigates is a good a chance as any to get log some real combat time.


This is great. I will be definitely joining you. :smallsmile: I've never read the books, but I've been meaning to for quite some time. I probably won't be able to post every day, but hopefully I can catch up.

We’re not that deep into the book so it shouldn’t be that hard to catch up.

edit
Somehow the opening quote i quoted didn't come out as a quote. so I've fixed it.

[pendell]

Hmm. .. I don't think the fact that battle meditation makes an appearance in KOTOR really counts as a spoiler, given that it's mentioned in the first two minutes of the game. Bastila uses battle meditation. That's why the Sith are attacking the ship she is on.

Come to think of it, that's also a call back to the start of A New Hope as well.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

A pity, I think, that Ysalamir never make much appearance outside of Zahn's stories. Or , indeed, in any of his stories after Last Command. I guess people wanted stories about Jedi, and Ysalamir are an unnecessary complicating factor.

He uses them in Vision of the Future at least. In most of the other stories he wrote, neither the protagonists nor the antagonists would be expected to be making use of them.

[Yora]

Could that be a bit spoilery for Visions of the Future? Not that it probably matters much, but I think we really shouldn't get into a habit on discussing who or what appears in later stories. Because that's pretty good indication on who lives and who dies, and even who switches sides.

Nothing bad yet, but try not to make it a habbit.

[hamishspence]

Fair enough. I figured that, like somebody else did with I, Jedi, it made sense to mention good later uses of ysalamiri.

Going back to Heir to the Empire - one thing I noticed is that Pellaeon seems to be under the impression that Vader was in command of the Endor force (when actually, Vader had delegated it to Piett).

[Gnoman]

The Executor was Vader's personal ship. If Vader gave an order, Vader was in command. If Piett gave an order, Vader was in command. If the ship's rats gave an order and were obeyed, Vader was in command. Any deficiencies in the performance remained Vader's fault.

[Yora]

But Vader didn't direct the troops or the fleet. In the movies he only tells the admiral what result he wants to see, and then the admiral was on his own to tell everyone else what they need to do to get Vader what he wants. It might be somewhat justified by saying that all the mid- and low-level officers were made to believe that Vader was the military mastermind who orchastrated everything (Palaeon wasn't even a Captian at that time), but that's not really spelled out anywhere.

[hamishspence]

But Vader didn't direct the troops or the fleet. In the movies he only tells the admiral what result he wants to see, and then the admiral was on his own to tell everyone else what they need to do to get Vader what he wants. It might be somewhat justified by saying that all the mid- and low-level officers were made to believe that Vader was the military mastermind who orchastrated everything (Palaeon wasn't even a Captian at that time), but that's not really spelled out anywhere.

And Vader's not even on the ship throughout the battle- he's on the Death Star.

[Cikomyr]

But Vader didn't direct the troops or the fleet. In the movies he only tells the admiral what result he wants to see, and then the admiral was on his own to tell everyone else what they need to do to get Vader what he wants. It might be somewhat justified by saying that all the mid- and low-level officers were made to believe that Vader was the military mastermind who orchastrated everything (Palaeon wasn't even a Captian at that time), but that's not really spelled out anywhere.

Vader appointed Piett as Admiral. Vader assigned Piett on the flagship.

"In Command" can mean multiple things. But I think the key there is that many people are not aware of the fine details of the Battle of Endor. Zhan wants to make the point that people were not necessarily privy to our own point of view of events.

[hamishspence]

Makes sense. Though Zahn's harsher critics call it the first of many cheap shots at Vader - I think it's more complex than that.

[Yora]

Starting chapters 5 and 6.

These were both particularly short. Oh, well...

Really, hasn't anyone heard at least of the most basic concepts of security? Political VIPs on a neutral planet, no weapons allowed, their contact is suddenly ill, and then they let themselves split up? This is just as blunt as Thrawn manipulating C'baoth. This isn't being too trustworthy, this is actively ignoring every possible warning sign there is, trying their best to help their enemies to make it easy.

It's a trap!

We have both Akbar and Mon Mothma back as leaders of the New Republic, and Zahn even managed to build something from that one half-sentence mentioning the Bothans. As in the previous chapters, very efficient at reminding everyone of the movies and establishing connections between them and this story.
I do find it rather odd that he introduces a new alien race, but doesn't seem to mention in any way what they look like.

And is it just me, or is Zahn quietly sneaking in lots of movie quotes into the dialogues? :smallwink:

[Gnoman]

There's some pretty interesting character dynamics set up here. In just a few sentences, Zahn not only establishes Fey'la as a slimy, despicable little rat, but also shows the darker side of the New Republic's lionization of fallen martyrs. Meanwhile, Han feelings of exclusion and jealousy due to Leia's Force abilities -and the inevitable result that his wife's relationship with her brother is in some ways more intimate than her relationship with him - are starting to come to the surface. For such short chapters, there's a lot going on.

[pendell]

And is it just me, or is Zahn quietly sneaking in lots of movie quotes into the dialogues?


Or at least something that sounds like the movie. He discusses in his footnotes that he wanted it to sound and feel like Star Wars and not like fanfic, so while there are some by-line quotes -- callbacks that can occur even in regulary families -- there's also a lot of dialog that is influenced by the original trilogy. One of them is Han's line "I like marketplaces. I like 'em a lot." Zahn says that sounds like something Harrison Ford would grind out, so that's why the line was written.

Chapter 5: Blah blah blah. Politics. Ackbar is upright , dedicated, and out of his depth. Borsk Fey'la [spelling] is the Bothan representative, and is exploiting their contributions in the field of espionage during the war to enhance both his own stature and that of the Bothan people. Other heroes are quiet about their achievements; Borsk is determined to make Bothan exploits as glorious as possible, then exploit it for all it is worth.

In other words, he's the kind of person who would have been perfectly at home in the Old Republic Senate, and the presence of such people in large numbers is why the Republic became the Empire, discrediting representative government. Whether the New Republic can avoid that fate remains to be seen.

Fey'la also makes an appearance in X-Wing Alliance. Events in that game overlap closely with the events in this story, even though X-wing alliance ends at the battle of Endor.

Chapter 6: Our heroes go on a diplomatic outing, which is obviously a pretext for them to get into a shootout. Any doubts as to how this is going to turn out end when Han is forced to leave his sidearm back on the Falcon. Silly people, ANY time the heroes are disarmed in a story it's because they are going to really, really, really wish they were armed before too long.

And so it proves. While Luke is separated and faced off with his own problems, Han and Leia are surrounded by eight assassins armed with a kind of stun stick -- it shoots a web and carries an electroshock charge capable of stopping a gundark, both a weapon and a capturing device in one.

I don't think it's much of a spoiler to acknowledge these are the Noghri. Tim Zahn said he had originally intended them to look like Darth Vader's mask, only their faces really do look like that. They are grey-skinned. Originally, they had been intended to be as black as Darth Vader's cape, but real-life concerns about racism soon vetoed that, so they became grey. Given the dustup going around the web about the black stormtrooper in the new episode -- something I don't really know anything about, other than it is a thing -- their concerns were probably not unwarranted.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[TheThan]

Did I ever tell you guys that I HATE Borsk Fey'lya; this guy just pushes my rage buttons. Every time he opens his mouth. You know he’s trying to manipulate everyone around him. He has no moral qualms about how he gets his influence and power, and doesn’t care who he hurts as long as he gets his influence and power. He’s willing to burn the best people in the government to make himself bigger and more influential.
As others have said, he’s a low down scum bag and I really hate the guy. :smallfurious:

I really like the Stokhli spray sticks. It makes sense as a live capture tool, and it makes sense for the Noghri to try to use them against our plucky heroes. It tells us that these guys are trying to capture and not kill Luke or Leia. So we know this isn’t a random attack by random bad guys. It’s planned and executed by professionals.

Ysalamiri-
How to do you pronounce these things? It’s been bothering me since the book first came out.


Given the dustup going around the web about the black stormtrooper in the new episode -- something I don't really know anything about, other than it is a thing -- their concerns were probably not unwarranted.

He’s a stormtrooper, you shouldn’t be seeing his skin, so why does it matter? :smallsigh:

Anyway, now that we've introduced most of our important players and set everything up, its time to get the plot rolling.

[pendell]

Evidently the trooper in question took off his helmet. Gloom and despair and controversy oh my.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gnoman]

Ysalamiri-
How to do you pronounce these things? It’s been bothering me since the book first came out.


I always broke it down as Y Salami Ri, pronouncing the middle part like the lunchmeat. I gave the Y a long E sound, with the ri sounding like Cherry. The result was something like EEsalamiree. Don't have a clue what pronunciation Zahn intended, though.

[HasSIn]

After a slightly dull episodechapter, things are getting interesting again.

Chapter 3

New characters. And I will say it up-front I like, really like Talon Karrde. A sleazy bastard that you just have to fall in love with. :smallbiggrin: Zahn could have easily made this book about good vs. evil, but instead he makes a character that is neither and seems to be working just for his own good (I hope I'm not wrong about this).

It looks like Mara Jade has some history with Luke or the Empire, but not much else is revealed.

And Sturm und Drang was a nice touch.

Chapter 4

It's interesting that we've already found out what Thrawn's plan is about. I thought it would take a little longer than that. But there is still some 'trivial' technology that probably won't be so trivial when the time comes, so I'm curious about that.

Chapter 5

Politics. I like reading about real-life political figures, so it's good to know that Zahn decided to include them and that not everything is working out just fine for the Rebel Alliance. But nothing really happens, apart from setting up a conflict between two politicians that I hope won't be swept under the rug and will continue to play its part in the story. It makes the story just a little more believable to me.

And while the politics are all fine and dandy, the old heroes are still uninteresting. I thought that we would find out what had Han learned on his stop to Obroa-skai system, whether they suspect something about Thrawn, but alas the thing is never mentioned.

Chapter 6

Obvious trap is obvious. Other than that there is not much to say. This chapter just confirms the pattern that chapters with the protagonists are, at least for now, less interesting than those with the antagonists. I wonder whether it's because the antagonists are completely new characters unlike the protagonists. Maybe I'm judging them based on their appearance in the movies. Anyway I hope the ending of the chapter will finally deliver some action for the old group.

A random thought - Zahn mentions a lot of alien races, with almost no description or anything, so I felt compelled to google them out, but then I thought that the readers back then, when the book had been published, hadn't had the option of using the internet to look up images, so I've decided that I will just use my imagination for once. :smallsmile:


Now I just want more chapters with Thrawn and Captain P. Or Talon. I so hope I'm not wrong about him.

[OracleofSilence]

I refuse to even consider this a spoiler. Talon is, at least for me, one of the best EU characters. Don't worry to much.

[pendell]

I haven't seen any indication to Ysalamir's pronounciation in the notes; evidently it was never spelled out. Here's a phonetic guess (http://linguisticmystic.com/2007/01/31/how-do-you-pronounce-ysalamiri-phonology-to-the-rescue/). Two pronounciations are suggested, with reasons.

1) yi-sal-a-mee-ree


2) i-sal-a-mee-ree

Evidently Zahn never felt it necessary to comment either way.

Chapter 7

Luke is confronted by a squad of would-be captors. Luke is challenged by their semi-liquid weapon, since he can't simply deflect them with his lightsaber, so he retreats and stays out of the firing line.

After an initial attempt at non-lethally subduing the enemy fails, Luke is forced to resort to lethal force: He uses his lightsaber as a force-guided Hunter-seeker (http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Hunter-seeker), killing each of the opposition in turn.

Meanwhile, in the marketplace, Leia uses her force powers at Han's suggestion to create a distraction, giving him just long enough for him to call in the Falcon on his commlink. With Chewbacca manning an automatic blaster on the underside, they soon make their escape. Once Luke is aboard, to Leia's disgust , Han returns directly to Coruscant without consulting her.

Hmmm ... evidently the Noghri haven't encountered the Jedi before. But in retrospect capturing a Jedi is probably the single hardest feat of military science in the EU. Especially when said Jedi has access to a lightsaber; Jedi on the ground of an inhabited planet are by far the hardest challenge.

We'll see if next time they bring Ysalamiri on the operation. Another possible solution would be to trap the Jedi in a spaceship or some kind of box in orbit -- slap a tractor beam on it, and the Jedi is helpless. Even if they cut their way out, they can't go anywhere without an atmosphere to breathe.

I also wonder whether high-end droids would be a better solution than meatbags for the actual capture. Since Droids aren't organic, they should be almost outside the force altogether. Jedi mind tricks won't work on them and won't fool their sensors. Back in Episodes 1 and 2, Destroyer Droids (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Droideka) and Magnaguards (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/IG-100_MagnaGuard) answered just this specific purpose.

Chapter 8

Thrawn receives the report that all save the coordinator perished in the attempt to capture Leia and the twins. Joruss and Thrawn get into a dominance dance, Joruss refusing to cooperate further until he gets his Jedi. Zahn mentions that this is a basic conflict in the book -- Joruss' knowledge of the force versus Thrawn's military mind.

Pelleon offers a compromise; a stratagem which will give Joruss his Jedi, but leave time for them to co-operate in the next phase of Thrawn's plan, which involves the shipyards at Sluis Van.

Thrawn commends Pelleon.



"Your idea seems to have caught Master C'baoth's fancy."

"I apologize, Admiral, if I spoke out of turn."

Thrawn smiled faintly. "You served too long under Lord Vader, Captain." He said. "I have no qualms about accepting a useful idea merely because it wasn't my own. My position and ego are not at stake here."



Zahn comments at this point:


The second quality of a good commander; the ability to hear, evaluate, and adopt good ideas even if -- especially if -- they come from those who are technically his inferiors.


This is, IMO, an unkind cut at Vader. Vader in the original trilogy had no problem accepting good ideas from underlings such as that from then-Captain Piett. He only intervened when that aforesaid good idea was in the process of being throttled in its cradle by the incompetent Admiral Ozzel. Vader also understood delegation; he told his subordinates WHAT he wanted, not HOW he wanted it done. He didn't waste any time doing their job for them; if a subordinate wasn't up to the job, they were simply replaced with someone who could. Vader wasn't a micro-manager and seems to have been quite open to new ideas.

We see some pieces to the puzzle of Thrawn's scheme:
1) The Sluiss Van shipyards.
2) Mole miners, a type of asteroid mining machine which can be manned. I'm not linking to the article describing them since it no doubt contains spoilers as to their exact use.
3) Cloaking devices, one of the two technological finds Thrawn hoped to find at Mount Tantiss. It is being created for something smaller than a Star Destroyer...
4) The second technological find is Spaarti cylinders. We haven't been told exactly what these do yet, but that somehow Ysalamiri will be used with them.

So these are the pieces of the puzzle. I encourage anyone who hasn't read the story already to put their thinking caps on and try to puzzle out what Thrawn has in mind. You probably won't guess it, because we don't yet have all the pieces. But it may be a useful thought exercise. Like a crime drama , we must lay out the pieces of the mystery before we can see how it all fits together.

Back to Han, Leia, and Politics. Feyla once again does his best to ignore anything that conceivably happened on the planet as if it were a fluke , a one-off. At this point he seems to be a Star Wars version of Sire Uri (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Uri), whose ideas were always the opposite of what needed to be done, outlining the logic of effective military dictatorship of the colonial fleet since the political authorities couldn't find their own bellybuttons with a map.

Something the newer version of BSG corrected, thankfully.

Our heroes discuss who attacked them -- almost certainly the Empire -- and how the aliens not only knew where they were going, but were able to suborn a local official to do their bidding. Fey'la continues to obstruct the process at every step.

Leia pushes for Jedi training; Mon Mothma denies her. They don't have enough trained diplomats on the ground. They prepare to return to Bimsaari to prepare for kidnap attempt #2 to resume their diplomatic work.

That last is not spoilers, but sarcasm. We'll see if I'm wrong!

On a final note, Zahn does seem to quote from the OT frequently. I'm tempted to propose a drinking game: Every time Zahn throws in a word-for-word quote from the OT, drink . We'll all be on the floor in no time.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Yora]

Of all the many names, Ysalamiri seems to be one of the least ambigous in pronounciation. "Isalamiri" would have been ambigous, so he chose to spell it "ysalamiri" to make sure nobody thinks it's "aisalamiri".

I can't let this opportunity pass by to tell you once more that your spelling system is the weirdest I've ever come across after Gaelic and French.

[Gnoman]

Hmmm ... evidently the Noghri haven't encountered the Jedi before. But in retrospect capturing a Jedi is probably the single hardest feat of military science in the EU. Especially when said Jedi has access to a lightsaber; Jedi on the ground of an inhabited planet are by far the hardest challenge.


This sequence is the first time we see the Noghri in combat, and it strikes me now just how impressive they are. Luke has to rely heavily on the Force (something which they would have encountered very rarely (if ever) in the past,) first by triggering the stun stick remotely (something which would probably panic even a hardened warrior, imagine how a modern soldier would react if his gun suddenly started firing), then the trick with the tapestry (which they reacted to with ludicrous speed), and finally the thrown lightsaber (which they would have dodged if he hadn't been guiding it.) That's a pretty impressive introduction.

[mangosta71]

Zahn could have easily made this book about good vs. evil, but instead he makes a character that is neither and seems to be working just for his own good (I hope I'm not wrong about this).
Talon Karrde is what Han Solo was in A New Hope.


Hmmm ... evidently the Noghri haven't encountered the Jedi before. But in retrospect capturing a Jedi is probably the single hardest feat of military science in the EU. Especially when said Jedi has access to a lightsaber; Jedi on the ground of an inhabited planet are by far the hardest challenge.
How could they have? The fact that nobody knows what they are tells us that they came into contact with other species very recently, and the only Force adepts in recent history are Palpatine, Vader, Yoda, and Obi-wan. Now, there's Luke, Leia, and C'Baoth. Given that they're working for the Empire, we know that neither Luke nor Leia was involved in their first contact, and C'Baoth has been hiding away for who knows how long.

[pendell]

However new the species is, shouldn't they have been trained by the Empire? Since Imperial Commandos are tasked with hunting down renegade Jedi (http://www.amazon.com/501st-Imperial-Commando-Novel-Republic-ebook/dp/B00513F9BQ), shouldn't the Noghri have had some training in fighting Jedi? It's not like there aren't Jedi-in-hiding or Padawans or what not scattered around the galaxy.

Couldn't they have reviewed the records from Order 66?

The Galactic Empire is responsible for more Jedi casualties than any other organization in history; yet the Noghri were sent into battle without any benefit of this experience or any obvious training; their methodology is indistinguishable from one they would use on any human norm.

In other words, they were sent into battle against an enemy they were utterly unprepared for, and such preparation should have been available. Especially since Thrawn has encountered Jedi before -- remember that he destroyed Outbound Flight with its six Jedi masters. He should full well know what Jedi are capable of.

Yet the Noghri entered this battle ignorant. And died almost to a being. It's little short of murder.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Yora]

And now I am sure the dialogues are actually full of movie quotes. And it really uses the language of the movies a lot. All that went completely over my head when I first read the books. Maybe the German translation didn't have such a close match to the dubbing.

Luke kills seven noghri with a single throw? This reminds me of another case of classic German literature. I wonder if there will be more ahead.

Regarding speculations what the Noghri know or should or should not know, I think that's probably a discussion best saved for later.

The situation with C'baoth reminds me a lot of Gollum. Thrawn wants to use him, but Palaeon really has huge doubts and thinks his master trusts him way too much.

Again, I am impressed how much worldbuilding there is that later got huge impact into the whole setting. The New Republic, the bothans, Obroa-Skai, Sluis Van. I am sure there will be a lot more to come. The EU really wouldn't be we like we now know it without this series.

[mangosta71]

However new the species is, shouldn't they have been trained by the Empire? Since Imperial Commandos are tasked with hunting down renegade Jedi (http://www.amazon.com/501st-Imperial-Commando-Novel-Republic-ebook/dp/B00513F9BQ), shouldn't the Noghri have had some training in fighting Jedi? It's not like there aren't Jedi-in-hiding or Padawans or what not scattered around the galaxy.
Couldn't they have reviewed the records from Order 66?

The Galactic Empire is responsible for more Jedi casualties than any other organization in history; yet the Noghri were sent into battle without any benefit of this experience or any obvious training; their methodology is indistinguishable from one they would use on any human norm.

In other words, they were sent into battle against an enemy they were utterly unprepared for, and such preparation should have been available. Especially since Thrawn has encountered Jedi before -- remember that he destroyed Outbound Flight with its six Jedi masters. He should full well know what Jedi are capable of.

Yet the Noghri entered this battle ignorant. And died almost to a being. It's little short of murder.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
Canonically (at the time these books were written), there were no survivors from Order 66 aside from Obi-wan and Yoda.

Besides, any training that they may or may not have had is irrelevant, given that Luke, Leia, Han, etc., as primary characters in a Star Wars story, have standard issue suits of plot armor.

[Yora]

Chronologically, there were no prequels when the books were pubished. And the prequels pretty much ignored all other sources than the old movies. If anything actually manages to match up, it's more coincidental than on purpose.

[pendell]

The prequels hadn't happened yet, no. But Thrawn evidently respected the Jedi threat to such an extent he made a point of picking up some Ysalamir before going off to visit Mount Tantiss.

So clearly the thing to do when sending out a squad to capture the most powerful Jedi alive, the one who stepped into the throne room with the Emperor and Vader and came out alone, is without any sort of coverage whatsoever.

Also, remember that in the Zahn-books universe Thrawn has encountered Jedi before -- in this very book he admits to having destroyed the original Jorus along with five other masters. All of this happened before the extermination of the Jedi.



The situation with C'baoth reminds me a lot of Gollum. Thrawn wants to use him, but Palaeon really has huge doubts and thinks his master trusts him way too much.


C'baoth: The preciouss... give us the PRECIOUSS JEDI!

Okay, that's it. If a movie is ever made for the Thrawn trilogy I want Andy Serkis cast as C'baoth.

As towards other Germanic myths and legends ... heh :).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[TheThan]

I can't let this opportunity pass by to tell you once more that your spelling system is the weirdest I've ever come across after Gaelic and French.

It’s a made up word.
The problem with made up words is that nobody bothers to try to actually pronounce them out loud.
They imagine what it sounds like in their head and call it a day. it’s neither the first nor the last time starwars fiction has created an unpronounceable word.

What they should do is ask others to pronounce it and if they can’t get it right (according to what the creator imagines it) the first time, then he should go back and retool his creation to be more readable. (a simple “read this out-loud please” is all one needs to accomplish this)

They also tend to ignore any sort of spelling rules the English language has. Which are a bit difficult anyway considering English is an amalgamation of like five or so languages; which is both a strength and a weakness.


Talon Karrde is what Han Solo was in A New Hope.

Talon Karrde and Han Solo are not at all alike. Talon karrde is a much smoother operator than Han. He’s a leader of men, not a lone smuggler with a partner. He’s much more aware of politics and the ramifications of his actions in a political sense, and what it means to his organization than Han ever was. Karrde has long term goals and plans to accomplish them; Han never did beyond “pay off Jabba the hutt”. Karrde is also much more analytical, he doesn’t act on his feelings or first instinct, and he studies situations and even asks for others opinions before deciding his next course of action.

He’s more like Lando Calrissian than Han Solo.


Chronologically, there were no prequels when the books were pubished. And the prequels pretty much ignored all other sources than the old movies. If anything actually manages to match up, it's more coincidental than on purpose.
The prequels ignored much of the orginal trilogy as well… grrr.:smallfurious:

[OracleofSilence]

The prequels ignored much of the orginal trilogy as well… grrr.:smallfurious:

Lets face it. The prequels ignored basically everything. Including how to make a good film, but lets not get into that.

[nyjastul69]

I'm finding Zahn's pacing excellent. Quick and informative character introductions, plot elements being put in place well and just an overall sense of balance in the story so far. Zahn is impressing me as writer. He has been very efficient thus far.

So far, so good... so what so on to the next 2 chapters.

[Yora]

Oh yeah. I read the first few chapters of Gardens of the Moon, and by the point I had covered as many pages as we have now with Heir to the Empire, nothing had really happened yet. This book is really focusing on the plot and does not spend the majority of pages on setting the mood.

[Dragonus45]

Oh yeah. I read the first few chapters of Gardens of the Moon, and by the point I had covered as many pages as we have now with Heir to the Empire, nothing had really happened yet. This book is really focusing on the plot and does not spend the majority of pages on setting the mood.


I think that helps to maintain the watching a star wars movie feel that he mentions he was aiming for in the annotations.

[pendell]

Chapter 9

Admiral Thrawn stages a simultaneous raid on three planets using Joruus C'baoth both to co-ordinate the raids and to augment their effectiveness via battle meditation.

Pelleon notes the improvement of the Chimaera and its cohorts in the arena of precision hyperspace navigation, one of Thrawn's core competencies, allowing them to strike with speed at enemy weak points. The Chimaera is weak in the arena of formal military protocol, but is greatly improving in the art of warfighting.

This gives Zahn the opportunity to comment:



The third quality of a good commander: The ability to see what is most valuable in his troops. Competence and the ability to learn are more important than the trappings of pomp and pageantry.


Or, as Murphy's Laws of Combat has it: No inspection-ready unit ever passed combat; not combat-ready unit ever passed inspection.

Outcome of the raid:
All three planets are hit for significant damage.


C'baoth:

Battle meditation improves the Chimaera's efficiency by 40%.

Communications:
Able to detect in general the mindset of the crews, but cannot give a detailed situation report based on what is essentially intuition.

He is, however, able to pass on Thrawn's execute order.

Halfway through the mission, Thrawn changes the plan and orders C'baoth to have the Nemesis break off ahead of schedule. This is a test of C'baoth's ability to respond to what is in American football called an audible (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1716979-breaking-down-the-art-of-the-qb-audible); a deviation from the plan by the commander on-the-spot to respond to a fluid situation. It is a chance to determine both C'baoth's capabilities and his willingness to take orders in a crisis situation.

Zahn notes:



The fourth quality of a good commander; he plans ahead as much as possible.


I'm not entirely sure I agree with this; planning is important, but it's important to remain flexible and able to respond to situations. Overplanning can take away the initiative of subordinates and turn a beautiful plan into a clusterf-oo.

Actually, ALL military plans turn into a clusterfoo; the people who win are the ones skilled at salvaging something workable from the wreck. This is an inevitable consequence of the Friction of war (http://www.clausewitz.com/readings/OnWar1873/BK1ch07.html).

So it's well not to fall too much in love with your plans.

At any rate, the raids are successful and the Imperials withdraw, leaving the New Republic in a tizzy.

It wouldn't be a C'baoth scene if he didn't find some opportunity to gripe and complain; in this case he wants his Jedi, like a spoiled child waiting for a toy. Thrawn is angered at his continued petulance, but shows little of this outwardly.

MEANWHILE...

Talon Karrde and Mara Jade arrive in system to see the battle. Karrde scrubs his mission , on account of being intelligent and knowing full well that a planet soon to be swarming with New Republic warships is not a place to bring contraband. He does, however, stay to watch the battle in order to gain intelligence on his new adversary. This upsets Mara Jade. She does NOT like to break promises.

Karrde notes this ... as do we, the audience.

Leia trains on lightsaber practice with Luke. They discuss the recent imperial raid. They decide to visit one of the planets hit. This planet was noted as the home of a Dark Jedi who later went to Dagobah. This is of interest to Luke, who decides to check out Dagobah himself.

Chapter 9

Han and Leia are on Bpfassh, one of the planets hit. They speculate on the reason for the attack, and deduce it must have been to test whatever system they have which allows them to coordinate three strikes across interstellar distances. They further speculate it may be a Dark Jedi, and Wedge volunteers a rumor he's heard about a Jedi by the name of Jorus C'baoth on the planet Jomark. He doesn't know, of course, that this is a rumor planted by Imperial intelligence in response to Pelleon's suggestion several chapters ago. Chekhov's Gun for the win!

Of course, this being a diplomatic mission, it's required that they be ambushed by Noghri out to capture them. The capture team is a bit more cunning this time; using a squad as 'beaters' , they attempt to panic our heroes into fleeing into the "Millenium Falcon".

Only it's not the Falcon. It's another ship of the same make and model, presumably customized to resemble the Falcon as closely as possible. The heroes should run into the ship and are instantly captured.

But it doesn't work. The lack of a bottom-mounted blaster plus Leia's inability to Force-sense Chewbacca on the ship makes her suspicious. One natural roll of 20 on the Perception skill later, Han realizes the ship is a phony.

Well, we can't be having that. They pretend to run aboard, then divert at the last second. Han borrows Leia's lightsaber to sabotage the ship's coolant, grounding it. The capture team departs in an escape pod. Han also took the opportunity to call for help, and a squadron of X-wings ends this little party.

The presence of two capture teams indicates the Empire has real-time intelligence on their movements; therefore, there must be a security leak at the highest levels. Ackbar doesn't take well to this suggestion; he is feeling the heat from Counselor Fey'la and this gives Fey'la more ammunition to make the case that the Republic military needs new leadership i.e. himself.

With that avenue firmly closed in their faces, our heroes look for a slicer[=computer hacker] to see if they can investigate the issue on their own. Working outside the law is what Han and Leia do best.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gnoman]

I'm not entirely sure I agree with this; planning is important, but it's important to remain flexible and able to respond to situations. Overplanning can take away the initiative of subordinates and turn a beautiful plan into a clusterf-oo.


Zahn's quite right. The more planning you do ahead of time, the more likely you are to be able to respond to an unexpected development properly instead of having to pull a response out of nowhere. Even if you didn't plan for that exact contingency, you are very likely to have considered something close enough to have a "good enough" response to pull out. The ability to improvise is important, but a planned response is always better.

[pendell]

In the modern army, that may be true. I'm thinking of the lessons of World War 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormtrooper#Development_of_tactics). Back then, artillery barrages went on for days before the offensive finally kicked off. Since this meticulous, pre-planned operation took so long, the enemy had more than enough time to rush reserves to the point of penetration. Result: Four years of inconclusive fighting and indescribable carnage.

Ah... here's the paragraph.



The new assault method had men rushing forward in small groups using whatever cover was available and laying down suppressive fire for other groups in the same unit as they moved forward. The new tactics, which were intended to achieve tactical surprise, were to attack the weakest parts of an enemy's line, bypass his strongpoints and to abandon the futile attempt to have a grand and detailed plan of operations controlled from afar. Instead, junior leaders could exercise initiative on the spot. Any enemy strong points which had not been overrun by stormtroopers could be attacked by the second echelon troops following the stormtroopers.


The lesson learned on both sides was to make a much more 'hasty' operation and to cede more initiative to subordinates, rather than planning the individual actions of a battalion at the Corps-level and higher. This resulted in the modern concepts of the Commander's Intent (http://usacac.army.mil/CAC2/MilitaryReview/Archives/English/MilitaryReview_20131231_art011.pdf) in which subordinates who clearly understand the operation's purpose can fulfill the operational concept even if/when the plan goes in the wastebasket. Say, when a squiggle on the map proves to be, not a gentle stream that comes to your toes, but a shoulder-high flood.

I'm given to understand that modern technology has sometimes proven a hindrance in the field, as GPS technology and rapid communication can sometimes lead HQs to believe they have a lot more knowledge and control of the battlefield than they really do.

I have no military experience; I do know in my own life that too much attention to contingencies has occasionally resulted in analysis paralysis (http://theproductivitypro.com/blog/2012/08/overcoming-the-paralysis-of-analysis/).

So I know there's a balance between over-planning and being slapdash; Thrawn seems to have hit that balance perfectly.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gnoman]

In the modern army, that may be true. I'm thinking of the lessons of World War 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormtrooper#Development_of_tactics). Back then, artillery barrages went on for days before the offensive finally kicked off. Since this meticulous, pre-planned operation took so long, the enemy had more than enough time to rush reserves to the point of penetration. Result: Four years of inconclusive fighting and indescribable carnage.


That wasn't overplanning. That was "a bad plan". They thought that week-long artillery barrages sapped the will of the enemy to fight and caused a lot of damage. Later analysis showed that nearly every shell after the first three or four seconds was completely useless in physical terms (causing casualties only in the unlikely event a ground-fused shell penetrated a bunker), and the morale effect wasn't as pronouced as thought.

[Seerow]

Hrm missed a few days. Got some catching up to do tonight it seems.

[Cikomyr]

I think Zhan's comment about planning ahead as much as possible wasnt meant to be taken as "Thrawn has a super master plan", but instead meant to say " Thrawn has to know ahead of time if his Dark Jedi comm unit will be reliable ".

Understanding the capacities and limits of your C&C system is a critical aspect of genuine command; becoming ever more important the higher you go up the command chain. Thrawn is planning wheter he could send new orders on the fly or not.

[pendell]

I think Zhan's comment about planning ahead as much as possible wasnt meant to be taken as "Thrawn has a super master plan", but instead meant to say " Thrawn has to know ahead of time if his Dark Jedi comm unit will be reliable ".

Understanding the capacities and limits of your C&C system is a critical aspect of genuine command; becoming ever more important the higher you go up the command chain. Thrawn is planning wheter he could send new orders on the fly or not.

Agreed with both statements; Thrawn is doing something very intelligent, which is to test his new system thoroughly under combat conditions before he bets the Empire on them. Imagine how different the GFFA would be if all Imperial commanders did the same!


Chapter 11
Luke returns to Dagobah to follow up the lead he received last chapter. The dark side tree torments him; this time not a vision of the future, but of an alternate past. In this past, a force-wielding woman intervenes at a critical moment during Han's rescue from Jabba, resulting in the death of him and all his friends.

This raises up a point: The Dark Side can give visions, and those visions are of fear and torment. In the GFFA these visions are always true -- but they tell you the truth about yourself you either don't need or don't want to know.

...

I think Zahn is onto something here, and it may have carried over into the prequels as well. I recall that in Episode 3 Anakin had a terrible, tormenting dream of Padme dying in childbirth. This was a true , Force-given dream -- but his actions from that point on, intended to prevent this death, instead brought it about.

Because of this, I suspect Anakin's dreams were being influenced by the Dark Side of the Force. He was experiencing a Dark Side vision, much as Luke experience a Dark Side vision of himself as Vader in Episode 5.

But .. Luke was in a tree strong in the Dark Side of the Force.. where was Anakin's Dark coming from?

Had he opened himself to the Dark Side through his massacre of a sand people village? The Republic government may have forgiven him, but that doesn't mean the Force has.

Or is Darth Sidious attempting to manipulate him through the Force ?

Or are both these things true? Is Sidious manipulating Anakin, who is vulnerable to such a manipulation because of his earlier flirtations with the Dark Side?

At any rate, vision over, Luke finds an electronic artifact within the cave. He departs to have it analyzed.

Chapter 12

For just one brief, shining moment the SW universe flirts with hard science fiction. My inner geek spends several minutes shouting in ecstasy. The new system we visit is evidently superhot, necessitating the creation of purpose-built 'shieldships' to screen normal vessels from the sun's radiation while transiting the system. The surface of the planet evidently becomes incredibly hot during it's 'day', so the human base on the planet is not stationary. Rather, it is a surplus Dreadnaught being carried on the back of 40 or so AT-AT walkers, also surplus. This massive contraption continuously outpaces the terminator, keeping the station in lifegiving darkness as it endlessly walks around the planet.

This is one of Lando's endless schemes, and Han and Leia are here to visit. After providing information that only he could know, they prepare for a ten-hour transit under shieldship cover to the planet. They are joined by an X-wing ostensibly piloted by Luke under cover of the shieldship, but recent events have made Han and Leia wary. Rather than accept this at face value, they attempt to deduce methods to prove it really is Luke out there. Leia's force sense is inconclusive, but they eventually come up with a solution. C-3PO calls over, and they receive a response from an unmistakable R2D2. Their mutual identities established, they resume their journey in-system ...

at least, until an ISD jumps in. We'll see what that means next chapter...

...

I have to say that in some ways this story is a breath of fresh air compared to some other media. Everyone in this story is competent. Zahn seems to be working very hard to keep the Idiot Ball out of the hands of his characters, and when they do make a mistake it is the kind of honest mistake an intelligent person could make, not simple idiocy. Even Thrawn's dispatch of the Noghri, which I criticized for lack of preparation and Jedi-specific training, turns out to be not stupid as the Noghri respond quickly and well to the challenges posed by their quarry.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[nyjastul69]

Excellent synopsis thus far pendell, thank you for doing so. Not much to say about the story other than it'soving along well. I'd like to get back to what Thrawn & Co. are up to.

[Zolem]

Im sorry, GFFA version? I'm not familiar with the acronym.

[pendell]

Im sorry, GFFA version? I'm not familiar with the acronym.

GFFA = Galaxy Far Far Away. The universe in which the Star Wars Saga is set. Includes any extragalactic polities or sentient beings which may interact with the galaxy.




Excellent synopsis thus far pendell, thank you for doing so.


Thanks! I was a bit concerned I was over-participating, sucking the oxygen out of the room for the other posters. It's nice to know that isn't happening!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Aotrs Commander]

I must say, it is nice to see that, yes, the trilogy is still holding up very nicely to most everyone re-reading it. Sort makes one feel a little bit justified...!

[TheThan]

I have to say that in some ways this story is a breath of fresh air compared to some other media. Everyone in this story is competent. Zahn seems to be working very hard to keep the Idiot Ball out of the hands of his characters, and when they do make a mistake it is the kind of honest mistake an intelligent person could make, not simple idiocy. Even Thrawn's dispatch of the Noghri, which I criticized for lack of preparation and Jedi-specific training, turns out to be not stupid as the Noghri respond quickly and well to the challenges posed by their quarry.


Yeah,
Aside from the story; the best aspects of the book is how skilled everyone is. Thus far; Han shows off plenty of ingenuity and resourcefulness. Leia’s fledging force powers come into play and we get to see Luke do his thing. The Noghri are cleaver, skilled and dangerous (even when not trying to be lethal) and the main villains are showing their competence at their job.

[LadyEowyn]

I have to say that in some ways this story is a breath of fresh air compared to some other media. Everyone in this story is competent. Zahn seems to be working very hard to keep the Idiot Ball out of the hands of his characters, and when they do make a mistake it is the kind of honest mistake an intelligent person could make, not simple idiocy. Even Thrawn's dispatch of the Noghri, which I criticized for lack of preparation and Jedi-specific training, turns out to be not stupid as the Noghri respond quickly and well to the challenges posed by their quarry.

That's one of my favourite things about Zahn's books as well. Far too often - especially in the Star Wars Expanded Universe - the heroes are fairly dumb but win because the villains are even more incompetent.

Kevin J Anderson's books - the Jedi Academy Trilogy, Darksaber, and the Young Jedi Knights books - are particularly bad offenders, where the villains come close to defeating themselves purely by utter incompetence, and the heroes are able to take them down without any complex thought, planning, or tactics. Trying to pass Daala off as the next Thrawn made it worse.

Interactions between intelligent, thoughtful heroes and villains are so much more interesting.

The Thrawn Trilogy and the Hand of Thrawn Duology are, in my opinion, Zahn's best books. He's consistently exceptional at putting together complex and multilayered plots, but in many of his other books the characters aren't compelling enough to really engage me. These two series strike the perfect balance between plot and characterization.

Oh, and thanks for explaining the acronym, pendell. I thought it was referring to a governing organization in the Legacy of the Force series, which also abbreviates to GFFA, and it was confusing me.

[pendell]

Chapter 13

The Star Destroyer Judicator arrives in the Nkllon system. Unshielded, it's sensors are fried by the primary's radiation within seconds, rendering it blind. It's possible the armament is lost as well.

Fortunately for them, Jorus C'baoth is guiding the ship remotely, and it is of sufficient precision that the ship is able to drive into the planetary shadow. There, in the relative 'cool', it deploys fighters and landing craft.

Thrawn's experiment in the last few chapters is starting to show dividends. Now he takes it up a notch: Can C'baoth guide a warship blind through a jump and fight on the other end of it?

The answer to both these questions is "Yes".

Our heroes, trapped in the gravity well, cannot go to hyperspace and escape. So Luke in his X-wing and Han in the Millenium Falcon take on the entire contingent of TIE fighters by themselves.

To equalize the odds, Luke uses the Force to sow confusion in the minds of the enemy pilots and suffers a degree of reaction as his powers are perilously close to the Dark Side.

... From Zahn's point of view, anyway. Can someone explain to me why force-guiding a torpedo which will kill millions of people in a Death Star is 'light side' while nonlethally confusing an enemy pilot is 'Dark Side'?

I'm not sure all authors in the EU take the same tack on that. At any rate, Luke suffers the aftereffects of this.

C'baoth detects Luke's consciousness during the battle, and implants a suggestion in Luke to find C'baoth.

The Falcon and Luke's Xwing take a major toll on the Imperial forces, but neither is an Imperial objective; the troop carriers are a decoy. The REAL objective is to capture as many Mole Miners from the Nklllon facility as they can. Once they have successfully bagged 51 of them, the fighters and carriers return to the Judicator. Guided by C'baoth again, it retreats at maximum speed until it is able to conduct a lightspeed jump, leaving a very confused team of heroes behind.

AFTERMATH: IMPERIAL
Thrawn is very pleased with the capture of 51 Mole Miners for his scheme.

... Has anyone who HASN'T read these books have a speculation as to why he has them ... ?

The damage to the Judicator, which will take several days to repair, is considered acceptable. It's not like it will be in dry dock for months; it must have suffered mostly surface damage.

However, he is less pleased to hear that Skywalker was in the battle, that C'baoth was aware of it, and neglected to inform Thrawn for personal reasons. This got his troops killed and put the mission at risk.

A lesser man would go apes*t at this revelation. The only visible reaction from Thrawn is a slight smoulder to his red eyes. In the scales on which one side is marked 'asset' and the other is marked 'liability', C'baoth has just dropped a BIG marker on the 'liability' side.

They snipe like two cats in a sack. Afterwards, Thrawn believes C'baoth, and so orders Pelleon to deliver C'baoth to the planet Jomark for his rendezvous with Skywalker. However, after this delivery takes place, he orders Pelleon to set up an ambush point on the most likely X-wing route between Jomark and Nkllon. He intends to ambush Skywalker, and then decide whether to capture him or kill him.

I'm a bit disappointed in Thrawn. He had no qualms about capturing Luke earlier. I suspect his anger at C'baoth is beginning to influence his conduct of the battle, never a good thing in a commander. Thrawn also reminds us, by echoing Vader's 'altering the deal' line, that he's still a villain, willing to break his word.

Pelleon -- who may be a little lightsided ? -- speaks up for Skywalker, urging his live capture if feasible , advancing the plausible military rationalization that this will distract C'baoth and keep him away from Wayland, where Thrawn's plans might otherwise be thrown off schedule by C'baoth's interference. While plausible, I suspect this is merely a rationalizations covering Pelleon's dislike both of murder and of oathbreaking, a sin in any culture that values honor.

Thrawn is persuaded by Pelleon, demonstrating his military virtue again in being willing to listen to his subordinate, and so amends his orders.

Chapter 14

The heroes are completely baffled by the Imperials' behavior. Why did they steal 51 Mole Miners -- half of Nkllon's work force? Were they there for Leia and Luke? If so, why did they not press harder to capture them?

Lando joins them and informs them the leak must not have come from Nkllon. There are many scoundrels in Nkllon, and all of them are motivated by money. But there is no bounty on Luke and Leia -- Lando is straight these days but not out of touch -- and so no reason for anyone on the planet to turn them in. Conclusion: The leak is at Coruscant.

The heroes discuss the need of a slicer which will enable Leia to tap into a diplomatic system while remaining covert. The name Talon Karrde comes up as a person who has the contacts, both wealthy and noted for honesty in his illegal dealings.

In the meantime, they must find a place for Leia to hide. Chewbacca volunteers to hide them on Kasshyk. The Wookie homeworld is quite insular due to the former slave trade, so few outsiders will be able to find them there. Leia agrees. They also program C-3PO such that he can impersonate Leia audibly.

Luke departs to investigate the rumors of a Jedi master on Jomark, augmented by the message he received during the battle. Leia warns him to exercise extreme caution; by her lights there are no known surviving Jedi, so this one may very well be Dark, one of the Emperor's servants. In this she guesses all too astutely.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dragonus45]

Chapter 13
... From Zahn's point of view, anyway. Can someone explain to me why force-guiding a torpedo which will kill millions of people in a Death Star is 'light side' while nonlethally confusing an enemy pilot is 'Dark Side'?

I think its less an issue of result and more an issue of the individual tactics. You can use the force to guide yourself or your weapons but invading another persons mind to kill them, or possible for any reason is a dark side action.

[OracleofSilence]

i don't really buy that argument. That sounds exactly like a Jedi mind trick, which is explicitly a light side force poeer.

[pendell]

i don't really buy that argument. That sounds exactly like a Jedi mind trick, which is explicitly a light side force poeer.

Depends on the source. KOTOR has "Affect Mind" and it's more powerful cousin "Dominate Mind" as a neutral power (http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Knights_of_the_Old_Republic/Force_powers), available to both Light and Dark users. Depending on how Force Persuade is used, it is fairly easy to rack up Dark Side points with it even if it is technically neutral.

Still, 'Force Stun', 'Force Stasis', and 'Force Stasis field' are all light side powers, would all work in this situation, and are all more invasive [IMO] than affecting perception. So the question is still up in the air. The division between 'light side' and 'dark side' powers appears somewhat arbitrary.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dragonus45]

Depends on the source. KOTOR has "Affect Mind" and it's more powerful cousin "Dominate Mind" as a neutral power (http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Knights_of_the_Old_Republic/Force_powers), available to both Light and Dark users. Depending on how Force Persuade is used, it is fairly easy to rack up Dark Side points with it even if it is technically neutral.

Still, 'Force Stun', 'Force Stasis', and 'Force Stasis field' are all light side powers, would all work in this situation, and are all more invasive [IMO] than affecting perception. So the question is still up in the air. The division between 'light side' and 'dark side' powers appears somewhat arbitrary.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

I suppose stun and stasis are a nonlethal way of disabling your opponent. Can't quite manage to put it into words but I do think there is a difference between what Luke does here and the Jedi Mind Trick.

[Aotrs Commander]

I was always under the impression that it was among Zhan's attempts to keep the Force usage to a relatively low, subtle level, so it couldn't be spammed as the solution to every problem. (Notably in the later duology he made a pretty overt attempt to kurb the ridiculoudly silly levels other authors had been using at in the intervening years.) One of the things Zhan did most right in m opinion was that the Thrawn trilogy was not about the Jedi. The Jedi were in it, and Force-users were important to the plot - as in the original movies - but they weren't THE plot. Something that WAAAY too many other authors and writers forget or just plain ignore: Star Wars is not about magic space samurai. There are magic space samurai in it, but they are not - or rather SHOULD not - be the end-all and be-all of the franchise. (Which they tend to be nowadays.)

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Still, 'Force Stun', 'Force Stasis', and 'Force Stasis field' are all light side powers, would all work in this situation, and are all more invasive [IMO] than affecting perception. So the question is still up in the air. The division between 'light side' and 'dark side' powers appears somewhat arbitrary.

It is fairly arbitrary, but then all Star Wars games like slotting Force powers into arbitrary categories because making balanced freeform Force powers would be very complex in a tabletop game and nigh-impossible in a cRPG. Those powers seem to be tagged "light side" on KotOR mostly because it's nice and symmetrical to have five Light and five Dark powers, and "nonlethal" means "Light" in their minds, not because of any deep philosophical reason.


I suppose stun and stasis are a nonlethal way of disabling your opponent. Can't quite manage to put it into words but I do think there is a difference between what Luke does here and the Jedi Mind Trick.

Agreed. Using Stun, Stasis, Mind Trick, or the like on an enemy starfighter pilot in the middle of a battle so he ends up ramming into another fighter or being a sitting bantha for a proton torpedo and dying horribly while fully aware but unable to do anything about it would be a fairly Dark act even though most uses of those powers are considered Light because the Jedi take pains to only use them in non-life-threatening circumstances. Meanwhile, in the Jedi Knight series of games Force Grip/Choke is the only Force power that lets you move people around in a controlled manner (as opposed to chucking them around with Push and Pull) and is classified as a Dark power, but outside of the game context using that ability to, say, move someone out of the way of an out-of-control landspeeder and save their life would be a very Light act.

[pendell]

I was always under the impression that it was among Zhan's attempts to keep the Force usage to a relatively low, subtle level, so it couldn't be spammed as the solution to every problem.


I think you hit the right of it; in Zahn's world over-use of the force for ANY reason, light or dark, leads to corruption.

I also agree that reining in Jedi so that they are in the story but not completely overwhelming is what makes the Zahn books so good, at least compared to much of the rest of the EU.

As towards KOTOR, the rule of thumb I arrived at as a player is that light side buffs or heals the PC, while dark side powers explicitly attack enemies. Ironically, I found the light side powers to be far more useful in battle, as they gave quite an edge but didn't cost a great deal. Dark Side Powers often felt like I was throwing force points away for little more impact than I could get with a blaster or lightsaber.

As towards force stasis -- perhaps I'm overthinking this but I am rather curious as to exactly how that works. The first thought that comes to mind is some kind of disruption in the nervous system, preventing the brain from communicating with the rest of the body. If that is the way it's implemented then the power is extremely invasive.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Cikomyr]

I always see it as Yoda said it: use the Force for knowledge and defense, never to attack.

It doesnt matter what "power" you use, its why you use them. Force-choking people to prevent them to breathe poisonous gas wouldnt be a Dark side action, as long as you do not actually kill them.

[pendell]

While I agree that 'knowledge and defense' are the basis for light-side use of the force, I'm not sure it's intent which is important; I think, rather, the emotional state of the wielder is what is important.

Take Force Lightning, for example. I understand that in order to create Force Lightning one must first experience intense anger, then channel it so that this raw anger manifests physically as electricity.

Because of this, using force lightning will ALWAYS require accessing the Dark Side of the Force, even if you're using it to jumpstart a vehicle, act as a kind of backup power generator, or, perhaps, perform impromptu defibrillation in a heart attack victim..

So I don't think it's the intent which matters so much as the emotions necessary to perform the act. If you must attain a peaceful state of mind, free of passion , it is a light side power even if this peaceful state of mind is used to guide a proton torpedo to its target. By contrast, if the Force can only be accessed through strong passion, whether that be anger or lust or strong love, it is Dark Side.

Because of this "Dark" and "Light" in the Star Wars universe don't exactly map into real-world ethics of good and evil. That is, unless you subscribe to the philosophy that strong emotion always equates to evil while coolheaded, rational thought free of attachment or passion always equates to good. *I* do not.

KOTOR

Because of this, I have a great deal more respect for the character of Jolee Bindo [who was lightsided but only just above gray] than I have for the much more lightsided Bastila. She may have been more lightsided, but the resultant lack of attachment and passion bred arrogance, contributing to her fall to the dark side -- which may be temporary or permanent, at the player's discretion.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[TheThan]

The flip side of that is that it has somehow become ok to use Sith lightning as a light side Jedi.

I think this was done mostly so people could use the badass lightning powers while being “good” in video games. Removing the dualistic nature of the force removes the necessity of making two different endings. (the latter Jedi knight games come to mind)

This has made people come to the conclusion that it’s not the powers that are evil, but the people using them.

However, if you must tap into those negative emotions to use that power, you're drawing upon the dark side of the force.

[pendell]

The flip side of that is that it has somehow become ok to use Sith lightning as a light side Jedi.

I think this was done mostly so people could use the badass lightning powers while being “good” in video games. Removing the dualistic nature of the force removes the necessity of making two different endings. (the latter Jedi knight games come to mind)

This has made people come to the conclusion that it’s not the powers that are evil, but the people using them.

However, if you must tap into those negative emotions to use that power, you're drawing upon the dark side of the force.

Oh, you can tap into those power as light side but there's a penalty for doing so. The more lightsided you are, the harder it is to access dark side powers , which in-game is modeled as an increased cost in force points.

I think that's plausible, if we accept that Yoda was somewhat mistaken about the statement that 'starting down the dark path, forever it will dominate your destiny'. All Jedi, even the most lightsided, go dark from time to time. I've heard it suggested that Obi-Wan was accessing the Dark Side when he bisected Darth Maul in Episode 1. It's not proper Jedi behavior, but one dark side use every decade is not going to corrupt you into a Sith Lord.

And then there's the whole issue of Mace Windu. His lightsaber is purple because he does INDEED access his inner darkness , even though he is a lightsided Jedi. I suspect that's why his purple lightsaber is a mixture of red and blue -- sith and Jedi. His approach and philosophy to the Force are somewhat different from Master Yoda's and Obi-Wan's, but neither of those two luminaries even suggest that Mace is flirting with the Dark Side when he does what he does.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

And then there's the whole issue of Mace Windu. His lightsaber is purple because he does INDEED access his inner darkness , even though he is a lightsided Jedi. I suspect that's why his purple lightsaber is a mixture of red and blue -- sith and Jedi. His approach and philosophy to the Force are somewhat different from Master Yoda's and Obi-Wan's, but neither of those two luminaries even suggest that Mace is flirting with the Dark Side when he does what he does.

That's not the in-universe reason given - but it makes sense for it to be the out-of-universe visual cue for the watchers.

[nyjastul69]

Pendell, I have read the books and I can't recall what the miners are for. I haven't really thought about it though. I tend to try not to out think the plot.

[Dragonus45]

I always thought of the stasis powers as being something more like a bubble.

[Yora]

Just catching up on the chapters from the last two days. Really, Zahn? Getting witty about yourself already?


Some place called Bpfassh and two unpronouncable ones.

:smallbiggrin:

[TheThan]

Oh, you can tap into those power as light side but there's a penalty for doing so. The more lightsided you are, the harder it is to access dark side powers , which in-game is modeled as an increased cost in force points.

I think that's plausible, if we accept that Yoda was somewhat mistaken about the statement that 'starting down the dark path, forever it will dominate your destiny'. All Jedi, even the most lightsided, go dark from time to time. I've heard it suggested that Obi-Wan was accessing the Dark Side when he bisected Darth Maul in Episode 1. It's not proper Jedi behavior, but one dark side use every decade is not going to corrupt you into a Sith Lord.

And then there's the whole issue of Mace Windu. His lightsaber is purple because he does INDEED access his inner darkness , even though he is a lightsided Jedi. I suspect that's why his purple lightsaber is a mixture of red and blue -- sith and Jedi. His approach and philosophy to the Force are somewhat different from Master Yoda's and Obi-Wan's, but neither of those two luminaries even suggest that Mace is flirting with the Dark Side when he does what he does.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
My memory of the Jedi knight games must be a little fuzzy. I recall in one of the later (I think it was Jedi academy?)games, there being virtually no real penalties for drawing upon either side of the force, thusly one can stand on the fence as it were.



"Remember: abilities are not inherently good or evil, it's how you use them."


This is where I take issue. This suggests that the force is little more than a tool. Like a too,l it’s all about how you use it and why. Take for instance a knife. A knife can save someone’s life in the hands of a surgeon, or take someone’s life in the hands of a killer. I think the force is more complicated than that. It’s not just a tool to be used when it’s convent or needed.

To me it’s a very deep spiritual philosophy; a hokey religion if you will. Luke couldn’t lift his X-wing out of the swamp not because he didn’t lack the power or skill, but because he didn’t believe strongly enough in the force to be able to do it. (another issue, if a person can draw upon the force for power, why individual power matter?)

While the light side and the dark side are two sides of the same coin. I don’t believe it’s a pure dualistic thing like the ying-yang principle. Instead while both sides are part of the same thing, they oppose and compete against each other for dominance. Neither side can be in perfect balance. The more you try to straddle that fence, the more likely you are to fall on one side.

I think this is why Yoda was not mistaken; I think he was giving rushed instruction in the force. He knew he didn’t have too many years left to train Luke so he gave him a quick crash course. I imagine in order to prevent Luke from wandering dangerously close to the dark side and risk him falling, he simply told him to stay as far away as possible hence that line he delivered about the dark side dominating your destiny.

As for Mace windo; I hate the color coded for convenience lightsabers. It makes it REALLY easy to predict how any given Jedi would act when attacked. Jedi Guardians (blue blades) are going to be heavy into lightsaber combat, Jedi consulars (green blades) are going to be heavy into force powers; Jedi sentinels (yellow blades) are going to be a mix. So with a little bit of study, you can get a rough idea about how any given Jedi is going to react.

They gave Mace WIndo a purple lightsabers because he’s cool. Now if what you’re saying is true; and the force really is a pure dualistic thing (again like Ying-Yang) then everyone should be wielding purple lightsabers since the color purple is composed of light (blue) and dark (red). Assuming that is blue and red are symbolic in the star wars universe. The purple blade would represent a balance between light and dark, something all Jedi should be striving for.

@Yora
I think he was poking fun at sci-fi in general for creating unpronounceable names not just star wars.

[Cikomyr]

My memory of the Jedi knight games must be a little fuzzy. I recall in one of the later (I think it was Jedi academy?)games, there being virtually no real penalties for drawing upon either side of the force, thusly one can stand on the fence as it were..

I dont think video games should be considered when assessing the deeper philosophical implocations of Force Morality

[TheThan]

I dont think video games should be considered when assessing the deeper philosophical implocations of Force Morality

i think they do, the things that happen in video games have a marked effect on the rest of the universe.

[Cikomyr]

i think they do, the things that happen in video games have a marked effect on the rest of the universe.

Story elements? Sure

Gameplay mechanics? Give me a break. The game designers just need some nifty clear-cut ways of making light/dark sides powers, because that's what people happen to expect from such a game. But it's not necessarily reflective of the universe's lore. Quite the opposite. It's a gimmick made by programmers who are trying to make a video game.

[pendell]

*I* will discuss the implementation of force powers in KOTOR as if they had something intelligent to say about the Force in the EU. It is in the EU and , while not the highest level of canon, is canon enough for Lucas to make millions of dollars from it in licensing. That's canon enough for me.

No one else is required to join me in my delusions, of course :).

Moving on.

Chapter 15

Han, Luke, Leia and Lando travel to a rendezvous point in which they attempt a bait-and-switch in the hopes of throwing the Imperials off Leia's scent. Han and Lando will depart in the Millenium Falcon in search of Talon Karrde, who has slicers and ships which they need. They take along C3PO, who transmits in Leia's voice in order to deceive any observer into believing Leia is aboard the Millenium Falcon.

Unfortunately, they have not reckoned with Sherlock Holmes Grand Admiral Thrawn. Watson Pelleon brings him the recording of the Lady Luck docking with the Millenium Falcon, said recording taken by a spy probe in the system. "Leia's" message fools Pelleon completely.

Thrawn, however, is not deceived.

Let's see if I can follow the logic here:
1) The Lady Luck [carrying Lando] and the Millenium Falcon [carrying Han, Chewbacca, and Leia] dock.

LL MF
Lando Leia Chewie Han

2) The duration of the docking tells Thrawn that three people transferred between the vehicles.
3) Thrawn assumes, based on his psychological insight into the characters, that at least one human pilot will remain aboard each ship. So each ship must have a minimum of one person aboard. Thrawn completely dismisses droids from his equation; this may be an exploitable flaw in his character. Perhaps droids are devoid of the psychology he so craves? And , because he's not good with them, he ignores them whenever feasible?

4) Because of this , the possible final compliments of the ship must be:
A)

LL MF
Leia Chewie Lando Han
Leia Han Lando Chewie
Han Chewie Leia Lando


5) Of these three complements, Thrawn apparently dismisses the possibility of Han and Chewie departing on the Lady Luck. While this possibility is not explicitly discussed, Thrawn, based on his psychological analysis of the characters, finds it unthinkable that both Han AND Chewie would leave the Millenium Falcon ; not after Lando broke it in Episode 6. At least one of them must have stayed aboard the MF.

This leaves us with two possible compliments: Leia and Chewie aboard the LL, or Leia and Han aboard the LL.

6) Pelleon mentions "Leia's" transmission from the MF. Thrawn dismisses this out of hand as a deception; a recording or voice-printed droid. If anything, the over-obvious attempt at deception leads him all the more strongly to the conclusion that Leia is NOT aboard the Falcon.

7) Having narrowed down the possible crews to two, Thrawn goes on to consider: What possible advantage do these crews give?

He quickly comes to the conclusion that there is no value in Han and Leia transferring to the Lady Luck; the Falcon is both faster and better armed.

What advantage is there in Chewbacca and Leia boarding the Lady Luck? Thrawn can think of only one: This crew will have an advantage if it travels to Kasshyk in order to hide.

One advantage to zero, Thrawn eliminates the LL crew of Han/Leia and concludes that Leia and Chewbacca are aboard that ship. He further concludes that they are heading to Kasshyk to hide. He gives orders accordingly.

Tim Zahn takes this point to mention



Various readers over the years have noted certain similarities between Thrawn and Sherlock Holmes. Here's one of the spots where that kinship most clearly comes into view.

Once my current reading stack grows a little smaller, it'll probably be time for me to pull out my complete Sherlock Holmes collection and start through it again.


Heh.

Having thus given orders to capture Leia on Kasshyk, Thrawn next orders the Chimaera to ambush Luke Skywalker. For this operation they will need , in addition to the Chimaera, an Interdictor-class cruiser [for it's ability to interrupt hyperspatial travel] and a disposable freighter. They will make it appear that the Chimaera is in-system coincidentally to stop and inspect the freighter. Planning for all reasonable contingencies, Thrawn wishes Luke to believe , in the event he escapes, that the encounter was a coincidence and not a deliberate ambush.

A final note: At the end of the chapter, Pelleon observes an unusual artwork in Thrawn's chamber, Thrawn regretfully informs him it is from his one failure, the one people whose artwork gave him no insight into their psychology. He eventually wound up destroying their world. A quick reminder that, as sympathetic and intelligent as Thrawn is, he's still the villain of the story.

Chapter 16.

Luke falls into the trap, encountering the aforementioned Chimaera, Interdictor, and freighter.

He immediately sets course away from both vessels, hoping to escape before he is detected. He has no way of knowing that he never had a chance of escaping detection. He diverts all power from weapons and shields to engines in the hope of boosting his velocity for the escape.

Players of X-wing (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_X-Wing) will recognize the tactic. The X-wing travels approximately 50% faster when the power is diverted entirely to engine in that game or its successors, Tie Fighter and X-wing Alliance.

The Chimera transmits and demands he identify or power down for detention. A mistake on their part; they would have been better off simply locking a tractor beam on him.

As it is, thus warned that he is detected, Luke dumb-fires a proton torpedo into the freighter, which his Force-sense tells him is unoccupied. In this he shows callous disregard for any droids which might be aboard the ship -- but I guess no one really cares about droids in Star Wars, do they? Vitalist meatbags, as HK-47 might say.

Also, the tactic of blind-firing torpedoes works in X-wing Alliance as well (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_X-Wing_Alliance). Zahn posits that the reason for this is that guided weapons require electronic signature and electronic lock-on, both operations being detectable by a target ship's ECM suite. Once detected, it is a trivial matter for turbolasers to track and destroy such a target. But a dumb warhead gives off no obvious electronics and so must be actively detected ; a harder problem, especially since you don't know what you're looking for.

In any case, Zahn used the West End Games Roleplaying game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Roleplaying_Game) as the basis for the technology and tactics of his stories. Perhaps these rules are spelled out more clearly there.

At any rate, Luke destroys the freighter with a dumb torpedo in the hope of blinding or distracting the Imperials.

No such luck; The Imps revector quickly to engage him. Luke redirects power to shields as he may need to eat a turbolaser shot or two in order to escape. the Imps snap a tractor beam on him.

Luke attempts to overpower the tractor by flying at full speed; no success. The tractor has him firmly.

Next, Luke performs an excessively violent maneuver. First releasing two torpedoes at zero-vector relative to his X-wing, He applies a vector which is exactly opposite to his current path. His velocity thus cancelled, his craft comes to a "dead stop" with a shrieking that tells Luke some equipment aboard did not like that at all.

His torpedoes continue along the original vector at the same course and speed his X-wing HAD been travelling. The tractor beam, having lost lock, attempts to reacquire. The beam searches along the X-wing's previous vector , and finds something exactly where the X-wing is expected to be ...

... the two torpedoes.

The tractor grabs the two torpedoes and pulls them rapidly in, destroying the tractor projector.

Before the Imperials can reestablish lock with another projector, Luke has reached the edge of the Interdictor cone and escaped into hyperspace.

Thrawn is coldly furious. Staring at the viewport for a moment, he descends to the bridge work pit, Pelleon in tow.

Observation: By current naval standards, Thrawn's actions are a serious breach of protocol. The correct thing to do is for Thrawn to express his displeasure to Pelleon and leave it to Pelleon to establish discipline in his own ship; if he doesn't trust Pelleon to do this he needs to remove him from command and find a subordinate he does trust to do the job. By directly disciplining the crew, Thrawn is undermining the chain of command. But this is Star Wars, where such things are common. Time for Thrawn to go all-villainy with a Blofeld Ploy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlofeldPloy).

We quickly meet the crewer manning the tractor: Crewer Cris Pieterson.

Thrawn observes that he was in charge of the tractor beam.



"Yes, sir -- but what happened wasn't my fault."


Obviously this conscript hasn't heard about the No Excuses (http://www.stewsmith.com/linkpages/noexcuses.htm) rule. "It wasn't my fault." is the last thing a military officer wants to hear from a subordinate. It is for him to assess blame. Stick to the facts.



Thrawn's eyebrows arched a bit. "Explain".


The arched eyebrows indicate an anger which, in another man, would result in a Downfall-class temper tantrum (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feMXdRioycM). But Thrawn, ever self-controlled, responds only with a raised eyebrow.

Pieterson begins to talk about the event.



"I'm aware of the facts," ... "I'm waiting to hear why his escape wasn't your fault."




I was never properly trained for such an occurrence, sir. "... " There was no way for me to know it had really picked up something else until..." [the proton torpedoes detonated against the projector].


Thrawn studies him for a long moment, then calls over his officer -- Ensign Colclazure.

If these names sound suspiciously English-like for the Star Wars universe, it is because they are American names. Timothy Zahn held a charity auction, in which he offered two prizes: The right to be written into a star wars story, and the right to determine whether that character lived or died. Chris Pieterson won the right to be written in, Brian Colclasure won the decision whether Chris lived or died.

Which was it? We shall soon see.

Thrawn interrogates the ensign.



"You are in charge of this man"?

"Yes, sir."

"Was his training also your responsibility?"

"Yes, sir."

"Did you, during your training, run through any scenarios similar to what just happened?"

"I .. .don't remember, sir. The standard training package does include scenarios concerning loss of lock and subsequent reestablishment confirmation."

"Did you recruit him as well, Ensign?"

"No, sir. He was a conscript."

"Does that make him less worthy of your training time than a normal enlistee?"

"No sir. I've always tried to treat my subordinates equally."


Ensign Colclazure is better at this sort of grilling than his crewer is. He understands the drill: Answer all questions truthfully, volunteer nothing, keep your mouth shut. It is amazing how many people get themselves into deeper trouble because they can't. Shut. Up.

Still.. I wonder if the ensign could have saved the Crewer's life by saying something like "I take responsibility for his actions" or saying something, anything, to deflect the Admiral's wrath. As it is, given the flick of his eyes towards his crewer, there is a sort of impression the ensign is throwing the crewer to the wolves. Though, facing down down Darth Vader or Thrawn, it would take a man of granite to make such a decision.

And now all has been heard. Thrawn thinks for a minute, then calls over his executioner.

And here comes the ONE line that has stuck with me in this book since the first time I read it, back in 1991...



THRAWN: Do you know the difference between an error and a mistake, ensign?"

COLCLAZURE: No, sir.

THRAWN: Anyone can make an error. It only becomes a mistake if you refuse to correct it.


Thrawn orders Petersen executed. His head is off his shoulders in less than a second.



"The error, Ensign," He told the other softly, "has now been corrected. You may begin training a replacement."

He held Colclazure's eyes another heartbeat.


The unmistakable message is loud and clear; Peterson was at fault because , though he received the standard training, he was unable or unwilling to adjust to a new situation. The Empire does not need stupid men. So Thrawn kills him pour encourager les autres (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Byng#Legacy).

Nonetheless, the training and behavior of his men is ultimately the responsibility of the Ensign, and he has not escaped notice. It is NOT good to bring yourself to the attention of a flag officer this way. He had best see to it that his unit is sufficiently trained in the future so that it does not come to Thrawn's attention in such a way again. If it does, Thrawn will be forced to conclude there is a failure of leadership, and take ... an appropriate response.

I frankly consider Thrawn's actions to be a waste of human material. While Peterson's failure demonstrates he is unfit to serve in any critical position in the Imperial military, there must be plenty of other jobs that require a human but are both non-critical and deeply unpleasant. KP. Peeling potatoes for the remainder of his enlistment. Servicing the waste recyclers or garbage compactors. Reassignment to some lone monitoring asteroid station in the middle of nowhere.

I suspect the sight of Crewman Peterson scrubbing out the toilets on the Chimera, now and forever, would have served as an object lesson no less effectively than severing his head -- while still allowing him to serve the Empire. I suspect that, in the real world, 'volunteers' for such choice duty stations as the Thule Air Base (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule_Air_Base) are selected in just such fashion.

Having thus corrected the Chimera's deficiency, Thrawn instructs Pelleon to resume the hunt for Skywalker. That particular violent maneuver is known to Thrawn as one which will cause a hyperdrive to fail in short order. The X-wing cannot be a lightyear away. Apparently driven by the needs of plot, Thrawn fails to order that this search be conducted by Imperial military, instead relegating the job to bounty hunters and smugglers, perhaps setting up the conditions for a future chapter...


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gnoman]

3) Thrawn assumes, based on his psychological insight into the characters, that at least one human pilot will remain aboard each ship. So each ship must have a minimum of one person aboard. Thrawn completely dismisses droids from his equation; this may be an exploitable flaw in his character. Perhaps droids are devoid of the psychology he so craves? And , because he's not good with them, he ignores them whenever feasible?


This passage doesn't reveal anything about Thrawn's attitude towards droids. Assuming his understanding of Solo's attitude towards them is accurate, his reasoning is entirely sound.

Let's break it down:

1. Solo hates droids, and does not allow them on his ship. The only exceptions are R2-D2 and C-3P0, as those belong to his wife or brother in law and he accommodates that.
2. By this logic, no droids will pass from Lady Luck to the Millenium Falcon.
3. While it is possible that droids will pass from the Falcon to the Luck, both of the droids that are allowed on the Falcon are accounted for. Luke is using the R2 unit in his fighter, while a droid is still on the Falcon, masquerading as Leia.
4. Thus, no droids made the transfer.

[pendell]

If the above is true, then Zahn must either have treated the Han Solo Adventures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Han_Solo_Adventures) as non-canon, or simply not known they existed.

Or perhaps Thrawn is unaware of these events, and simply made a lucky guess.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gnoman]

That's why I said "assuming his understanding of Solo is correct". His logic was entirely sound based on what he thinks he knows.

[hamishspence]

If the above is true, then Zahn must either have treated the Han Solo Adventures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Han_Solo_Adventures) as non-canon, or simply not known they existed.

Or perhaps Thrawn is unaware of these events, and simply made a lucky guess.

It could be both - one reason for in-universe, one reason for out-of-universe.

[LadyEowyn]

I frankly consider Thrawn's actions to be a waste of human material. While Peterson's failure demonstrates he is unfit to serve in any critical position in the Imperial military, there must be plenty of other jobs that require a human but are both non-critical and deeply unpleasant. KP. Peeling potatoes for the remainder of his enlistment. Servicing the waste recyclers or garbage compactors. Reassignment to some lone monitoring asteroid station in the middle of nowhere.

I agree, and it's also a particularly unfair attitude because Pietersen was a conscript. If you conscript people, their minimum skill level is going to be set by your recruitment standards. If a conscript isn't good enough to be in your military, that's your fault for forcing him to be in it.

[Yora]

his reasoning is entirely sound.
One of the big thing I've been wondering when picking up the books again was how much there really is to Thrawns reputation as a genius and how much of it is just hype. And overhyped character skill and talent in Star Wars are as bad as in Shonen anime.

But in this scene, he's really not making big stretches or comes up with things out of thin air. Given the information he already has, everything is entirely plausible and reasonable. He already knows that Han is trying to get Leia to a safe place and also that the two have a wookie on their ship who them completely trust and who would give his life for either of them without hesitation. Once you assume that docking maneuver was for some kind of switch, it is immediately clear that Leia would be among the people who switch ships. That they intercepted a message by Leia from the Millenium Falcon right after that even makes it more convincing that it's a fake, otherwise it would have been safer to not send the message at all or only after a couple of hyperjumps. And Thrawn new Chewbacca could have switched to the other ship as well, and then Kashyyyk really would be the obvious destination. That he can pin down the number of people who switched ships exactly overdoes it a bit. An estimation of probably 3 or 4 would have seemed more belivable.
The only problem I have with that scene is that Thrawn immediately says not to bother checking where Landos ship is going. Leia is going to Kashyyyk is a very plausible scenario, but I think he should have at least get it confirmed. If they know the ship is going to Kashyyyk, then he could be sure. Like this, this is just a really good guess.

The other chapter stretches it too much, I believe. Luke gets a call from a hidden Jedi and on his one-leg trip there he just happens to fly within a few thousand meters of the Chimera and an Interdictor capturing a freighter. The odds for that are so infinitely small you can call it impossible. Luke must have known that this was no accident. Fun Fact: This scene is the first appearance of an Interdictor ever.

It's also interesting how Zahn approaches the durations of hyperspace travel. The old movies are really very unclear on how long the hyperjumps take. Could be minutes or days. The new movies are full of situations that make it seem like you could get to any point in the galaxy without hours. But with the durations mentioned in this book, long-range trips seem like they could go for weeks or even months.

[TheThan]

The smarter play for Han and company would be for Han and Lando to board the falcon at Nomad city, while Chewie and Leia take the Lady Luck to kashyyyk. That way they don’t have to do any sort of bait-and switch maneuver at all. In this situation a recording or reprogrammed droid could have worked perfectly; for them saying their goodbyes before making the jump to hyperspace.

I think the point of Thrawn taking personal action into the punishment of his bridge crew is to teach a three point object lesson.

1: Grand Admiral Thrawn teaches his command staff that he does not execute people out of blind rage like Darth Vader did. This is important for someone capable like Pelleon to know. The people on Vader’s ship were terrified into inaction. Anything could set Vader off and you’d be dead. Thrawn does not operate like that. He wants his crew to be able to think and react on their feet. He may be in charge, but he wants his officers to be comfortable enough around him to be able to act under pressure.

2: placing blame on another is not acceptable behavior. I firmly believe that if Crewman Pieterson had taken the blame for his actions and not simply pushed them off on his superior, his life would have been spared (I doubt he’d be manning a weapon any time soon but still he’d be alive).

3: failure to act is a much greater sin than just failure (and is therefore worthy of summarily execution). Crewman Petersen failed to act and confirm his tractor beam lock on. This results in Skywalker’s escape and the destruction of tractor beam number 4. He didn’t try to make sure his lock was accurate and simply assumed so. If he had and the torpedoes still struck, then he could have explained that he simply couldn’t react quickly enough to avoid sucking in the torpedoes. This could be corrected with more training drills.

Ensign Colclazure failed to properly train the people under his command. This is a mistake that can be corrected, or as Thrawn put it, an error. If Thrawn learns that the ensign is still training people at an inadequate level, then the ensign is certainly dead meat because he would clearly fail to correct his error. (We’ll see how that works out later)

[nyjastul69]

I think Thrawn is far too convinced of his own theory. He, out of hand, dismisses certain things as so improbable that they should be deemed non-options. He claims to study his enemies intimately. Humans can be very rash creatures and don't always act logically when emotions are running high. To assume that, because Han hates droids, he would never let a droid operate his ship when the life of his wife and unborn twins are on the line seems unsound. This is the exact type of thing that might cause one to act rashly. Also, their plan is pretty simple. As crafty as Han is, why assume he is going to act in his typical fashion. I'm not as convinced as most seem to be that this is logic and reason at work. It rings pretty strongly of plot hammer to me. Regardless, the whole thing is ultimately one big plot hammer. I'm just not convinced by his logic.

[Yora]

Yeah, it's things like that which make me a lot more reserved about the character now. Since I last read the books, I've seen a lot of mastermind characters who really just had everything fall into their lap and have their stupid plans work only because their enemies acted even stupider for no apparent reason.
That whole "understanding tactical descisions of an individual commander by looking at some paintings from his home planet" method also seems total bogus.

But so far, I think he is holding up reasonably well. Success comes rather quickly, but so far we got step by step explaination of what he planned to do and almost all of them seem reasonably plausible. And even more importantly, it doesn't seem to ever go exactly as he planned to, and sometimes it fails completely. A nice touch to the character is, that this is never a big problem, because he's prepared for that outcome. If a plan fails, he just tries again. He doesn't rely on some grand ploy in which a single mistake can cause everything to collapse or fail. And I think a lot of time, he gives orders that inlcude "if possible" or "if there is an opportunity". 80% of the cylinders are up and running and his ship stole half of the mole miners from Lando. And to Thrawn, that's "excelent". I think that's an aspect that is going to show up a lot more.
With the several direct references to Vader in Palaeons mind, it seems like Zahn really wanted to establish Thrawn as an Anti-Vader. Not just to make the character unique, but I also suspect to show how he thought the Vader character was a bit silly.

[nyjastul69]

.. Lots of good stuff...

I agree 100%. Just to be clear, I don't necessarily have a problem with plot hammers. Good plot hammers are good. Bad plot hammers are horrid.

Every novel is an orchestrated result. Is the orchestration entertaining? Is the orchestration plausible? I feel, in this case, the answer is yes.

[Cikomyr]

What I never understood is why in Korriban hasn't Leia and Chewie already boarded the Lady Luck, while Han and Londo went on board the Falcon at the START?

What was the point of making everybody board their ships properly only in space?


Anyway. Regarding the execution thingy: remember that this isn't simply any position in the Empire. The faulty man was a bridge crewman over the Empire's flagship. All the more reasons to make sure the officers under your command are not mindless bots who can't adapt to unforeseen circumstances, or act careless and casual about their job.

As for "what a waste of human ressource"; it's one man in a bridge crew of what.. 50? 150 if you count 3 shifts? 200 if you count backup? add the 30K+ people crewing the entire SDII...

You can afford to waste one man to make sure your lesson sticks on your flagship's command crew.

[mangosta71]

What I never understood is why in Korriban hasn't Leia and Chewie already boarded the Lady Luck, while Han and Londo went on board the Falcon at the START?

What was the point of making everybody board their ships properly only in space?
Presumably they had to file crew manifests before they took off. Or they were worried that someone on the ground would see them and report to the Imperials. Or both. Besides, they had no reason to expect to be observed. If not for that precisely-located probe recording the docking maneuver, the Imperials wouldn't have known about the switch. To be fair, space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mindbogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space, listen...

That's not an issue as far as I'm concerned. The question I have on the Nkllon thing is, why doesn't everyone just plot their hyperspace jumps to come out in the shadow of the planet?

[Gnoman]

Star Wars hyperdrive is mass-locked, meaning that you have very little choice about how you approach things. Even if you have the galaxy's best astrocomputer plotting for you, and have the exact location of all system bodies known, it's still more likely than not that it will be impossible for you to plot a course into the system that can get into the planetary shadow.

[Cikomyr]

Presumably they had to file crew manifests before they took off. Or they were worried that someone on the ground would see them and report to the Imperials. Or both. Besides, they had no reason to expect to be observed. If not for that precisely-located probe recording the docking maneuver, the Imperials wouldn't have known about the switch. To be fair, space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mindbogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space, listen...

That's not an issue as far as I'm concerned. The question I have on the Nkllon thing is, why doesn't everyone just plot their hyperspace jumps to come out in the shadow of the planet?

I think the planet's gravitational shadow is bigger than its literal shadow..

[hamishspence]

Plus it's very, very close to its sun. Maybe the sun's gravitational shadow also contributes.

The shieldship can "microjump" or "short hyperspace hop" close enough to Nkllon to reduce total journey time to about 1 hour from their depot to the planet, though.

[TheThan]

Chapter 17
We open this chapter to learn what fate has befallen Luke Skywalker and his lovable droid Artoo.
He’s stranded floating in space, quite literally in the middle of nowhere. The hyperdrive motivators and his long range subspace radio of his X-wing are both blown out; thanks in to his desperate attempt to escape the Chimera’s tractor beam.

Luke attempts repairs but quickly learns that it’s a futile effort. However he does put Artoo to work trying to rebuild the subspace radio while he goes into his Jedi hibernation trance to reduce the limited resources his X-wing has. There’s little hope of being rescued but Luke isn’t giving up without a fight. At this point getting caught by the Chimera is a much better alternative than his current predicament. He throws a mental shout out to Leia; not expecting her to be able to hear him over such distances. However he’s selling both himself and Leia short; as she does in fact hear him.

Leia and Chewie arrive on Kashyyyk; Leia is blown away by the amazing sophistication of the Wookiees and how they blend their technology into nature seamlessly. She’s also blown away at the sheer size of everything, these trees have limbs you can land space ships on and reach up through the cloud layer. It’s a great place to get vertigo.

We meet Ralrracheen who has a speech impediment that makes him easier to understand. We also meet chewie’s old friend Salporin. They go up into the village and Leia spots a Noghri Death Commando hiding in a house. I assume he’s conducting surveillance. but considering he's been spotted, I assume he just screwed up real bad. However Leia cries out and the wookiees go hunting but come up dry. These guys really are awesome to give two wookiees the slip while on their own home turf. The decide the best course is to take Leia to safety.

Chapter 18:
Luke is awoken from his hibernation by Artoo. Someone has come to render aid. Luke is nervous that these guys are enemies because the chances of being stumbled across are pretty slim. He also figured out that the ship, a bulk freighter, is not all it appears to be. However he’s happy to be rescued at any rate and arranges for them to pick him and Artoo up.

We learn that this is Talon Karrde’s ship, the Wild Karrde (yes he likes puny names). Apparently Mara Jade ordered the ship to drop out of lightspeed and they found him. Showing us that there’s even more to Mara than meets the eye. Talon figures out who Luke is and asks him why Mara Jade hates him so very much. Luke’s got no clue as he hasn’t met her before; so much for Talon getting the answer the easy way. Luke is promptly stunned. How did this happen to a Jedi? You should be able to figure it out by now.

[mangosta71]

Plus it's very, very close to its sun. Maybe the sun's gravitational shadow also contributes.

The shieldship can "microjump" or "short hyperspace hop" close enough to Nkllon to reduce total journey time to about 1 hour from their depot to the planet, though.
Right. That jump from the depot to the planetary shadow means the planet/star's gravity well doesn't prevent hyperspace travel. Besides, there are numerous other examples of ships explicitly jumping directly into/out of orbit around other planets.

You can see what the shadow would look like with a simple experiment. Suspend a ball from a string and shine a flashlight on it; the shadow cast by the ball is bigger the closer the ball is to the light. Putting the planet between yourself and the star should be child's play for a competent navigator.

[Yora]

When I started reading todays chapter, I once more got to think how the book never describes anything. However, Kashyyyk actually gets quite a lot of descriptio, which works rather well.
Of the Noghri we know that they are small and dark gray, the Bimms are also shorter than humans with big ears, I believe, and the Lady Luck and Wild Karrde are "ships". Actually, Wild Karrde is a bulky looking freighter, which is quite a lot more than we know about Lady Luck. :smallbiggrin:

So let's have some picture time, with "artist representations" from other people:
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090709063145/starwars/images/thumb/9/90/NoghriNEGAS.jpg/308px-NoghriNEGAS.jpg
Noghri

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060520130416/starwars/images/a/a3/Bimm1.JPG
Bimm

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080615072125/starwars/images/thumb/0/0a/Ysalamiri_TotG.jpg/354px-Ysalamiri_TotG.jpg
Ysalamiri

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081010144456/starwars/images/8/8f/Vornskr_TotG.jpg
Vornskr

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050623022655/starwars/images/7/7e/LadyLuck-JOcutscene.jpg
Lady Luck

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070707112912/starwars/images/thumb/0/0d/Wild_Karrde_FF72_2.jpg/640px-Wild_Karrde_FF72_2.jpg
Wild Karrde

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070320013542/starwars/images/thumb/1/15/Immobilizer_Interdictor_Cruiser.JPG/640px-Immobilizer_Interdictor_Cruiser.JPG
Interdictor Cruiser (only about 10% the size of a Star Destroyer)

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060706160226/starwars/images/f/f0/Skipray_blastboat_landing_config.jpg
Skipray (fighter used by Karrdes people, had been mentioned in an early scene)

Question to everyone: How are you feeling about the pace? I could certainly go with three chapters per day instead of the 2 we had so far, if most of you would also prefer that.

[Aotrs Commander]

When I started reading todays chapter, I once more got to think how the book never describes anything. However, Kashyyyk actually gets quite a lot of descriptio, which works rather well.
Of the Noghri we know that they are small and dark gray, the Bimms are also shorter than humans with big ears, I believe, and the Lady Luck and Wild Karrde are "ships". Actually, Wild Karrde is a bulky looking freighter, which is quite a lot more than we know about Lady Luck. :smallbiggrin:

Skipray (fighter used by Karrdes people, had been mentioned in an early scene)

I think Skiprays appeared in the West End Games PRG source books, which might (I'd have to check the dates) have come out before the trilogy. Headhunters, of course, had been mentioned in one of the earlier Han Solo books (Han Solo at Star's End, was it?)

[The Glyphstone]

For some reason, I've never read these books despite having known of them and their quality for so long. This thread has convinced me to remedy that.

Now that I'm all caught up with where the thread is, the trick is going to be resisting the temptation to read ahead. Then again, I might just do it anyways and keep my mouth shut.

[TheThan]

reading a head is a path to the dark side.

Once you start down that dark path forever will it dominate your time, consume you at will... as it did all the others that already read ahead.

that being said. welcome to the discussion my young apprentice!

*EEEVIL cackle*

[pendell]

I think Skiprays appeared in the West End Games PRG source books, which might (I'd have to check the dates) have come out before the trilogy. Headhunters, of course, had been mentioned in one of the earlier Han Solo books (Han Solo at Star's End, was it?)

Skipray blastboats also show up in X-Wing Alliance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_X-Wing_Alliance), you can even fly them in the tech room simulator.

I recall them as being much like the assault gunboat -- turning ability of a barn, but fast, heavily armored and heavily shielded. One particular mission has a flotilla of some 24 of them attacking a Mon Cal cruiser. THEY. JUST. WON'T. DIE!

Here I was clocking to check after spending 4 hours troubleshooting to find TheThanh has already written up a synopsis; a much more awesome synopsis than I would have put up myself. Thanks!

...

I do note that Karrde succeeded where the vaunted Noghri death commandoes failed. Imagine how things would have gone if the Noghri were able to bring along some Ysalamiri. Training and skill is one thing, knowing the right thing to do is quite another. That's something both Karrde and Thrawn excel at.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[LadyEowyn]

Given that Thrawn knows about ysalamiris' abilities, why didn't he supply the to the Noghri commando teams?

[TheThan]

Given that Thrawn knows about ysalamiris' abilities, why didn't he supply the to the Noghri commando teams?

I know why, he needs them for another more important job. but that would be spoiling it. :smalltongue:

[nyjastul69]

I know why, he needs them for another more important job. but that would be spoiling it. :smalltongue:

But they can be used more than once. They could have taken more of them. It's simple, 'the plot required it'.

[mangosta71]

Given that Thrawn knows about ysalamiris' abilities, why didn't he supply the to the Noghri commando teams?
Something else that's bugging me on this read... why don't the ysalamiri screw with Joruus's battle meditation thing?

(The answer to both questions is "Plot.")

[hamishspence]

When does Joruus use his battle meditation on a character protected by ysalamiri?

[Gnoman]

The field of a Ysalarmi is explicitly limited, and rather small unless you chain them (already stated). Thrawn keeps one by his side to guard against betrayal while Joruus is outside the field but within earshot.

As for why they weren't issued to the Noghri, I can think of two reasons. One possibility is that Thrawn's plans require such a large number of them (and harvesting is inconvenient enough) that one Ysalarmi is worth a lot more to him than a few dozen Noghri, which he has an apparently large supply of and are expendable. The second possibility is that he doesn't want to risk Luke or Leia finding out about them (specifically, that Thrawn is using them) in the event that a kidnap attempt fails anyway. He clearly has plans for them, and doesn't want to risk exposing these plans yet. Besides, Noghri are expendable.

[mangosta71]

When does Joruus use his battle meditation on a character protected by ysalamiri?
I actually meant "How does he do it when he's inside a Force-null bubble himself (like he is any time he's on the bridge of the Chimaera)?", but now that you mention it during the three-part raid he uses it on the crew of the Chimaera, too.

[pendell]

Chapter 19.

Luke wakes up in Karrde's hidden base; he is surprised to see a tree growing right through the middle of it.

Mara Jade, who seemingly hates him with the burning intensity of a thousand suns -- as he detected through the Force last chapter -- escorts him to Karrde's office. She misses no chance to express her deep and abiding hatred of him , pondering whether to turn him over to the Imperials for the 30,000 bounty or just kill him themselves.

Ah, such PASSION. What a steamy fanfic I could write on the basis of all this passionate hate!

Luke notes in passing his lightsaber is now on her own belt. Does she have Jedi abilities also...?

Luke is ushered into Karrde's office. Karrde wastes no time explaining his predicament; as an independent operator, with business in both Republic and Imperial space, he survives in large measure by not attracting their hostile attention. He had originally planned to NOT hunt Skywalker for that reason. Than Mara dropped the Wild Karrde out of hyperspace practically on top of him, and he has limited options. On the one hand, the Empire is certain to find out he's had a run-in with Skywalker and , if he does not hand Skywalker over, will punish him as only the Empire can. But he estimates that the New Republic is more likely to win in the long run, and so he doesn't want to offend them either.

He seeks a compromise, where he can give the Imperials what they want but still let Luke go. Is it Luke himself he wants, or merely information?

Toward this end, he offers Luke a trade: If Luke tells why the Empire is hunting him, Karrde will tell him how Luke was captured and is still being held prisoner.

Luke agrees. He doesn't know precisely why he is being hunted, but there have been two kidnap attempts. This puzzles Karrde all the more. He assumed the Imperials were hunting Luke for his access to the highest levels of Republic government and any secret information he might know. But that does not appear to be the case.

Karrde explains about the Ysalamir and the planet they are on. It used to be a smuggler's hideout back when there were Jedi around. When the Jedi were exterminated in order 66, most smugglers left to be closer to their markets, Karrde never did.

At any rate, Karrde orders Luke returned to his cell as a 'guest' until he can figure out what to do with him or has more to talk about. Mara takes Luke back, never missing a chance to show her hatred of Luke.

Oh, and Karrde's pet vornskyrs don't like Luke at all. Why not...?


Chapter 20.

We meet up with Han and Lando. Han is getting an update from Coruscant , using a "code" made up on the spur of the moment.

We also learn that Admiral Ackbar is pressing warships into service as converted merchantmen. Part of this conversion is the removal of crew in favor of additional droids.

After the discussion, Lando and Han Solo discuss automated starships in the Star Wars universe. Lando advocates the use of slave circuits -- essentially an autopilot for the ship's computer, allowing it to fly and even fight with reasonable competence. While the modern Republic uses droids rather than slave circuits, they can be a real cost-saver.

Han scoffs at this, remarking on the fate of something called the Katana Fleet, evidently a fleet of ships which was equipped with slave circuits and suffered some kind of mishap.

Huh. Wonder if that'll be important later?



Their next stop is Abregado-Rae (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Abregado-rae), whose spaceport reputation is almost as bad as Mos Eisley's as a wretched hive of scum and villainy. They are in search of a contact which will take them to Karrde. They want to talk to him about cargo ships and a slicer.

On their way into the normal seedy cantina and gambling establishment where such meetings usually occur, they note that there is police activity at docking bay 63 -- has their contact been busted?

They enter a casino called "Lobue" and, while Lando casually sips the most expensive drink on the menu, they spot an old smuggling acquaintance -- one Fynn Torve, sitting at a sabacc table. As they discuss this turn of events, Han deduces that the teams pursuing Leia must be after the twins. He assumes this on the basis that, although both attempts were obviously captures, stunning equipment was not used. Why not? He informs us that stunners carry a fifty percent chance of causing a miscarriage. Conclusion: The twins are wanted alive.

Han is the first person on the good-guy team to figure this out.

The local heat comes in, seemingly after our contact.

Han asks Lando to run interference, then buys some sabacc chips and heads over to Torve's table. His casual banter at the table strikes a nerve.



Han: [getting his cards] "That's more like it. Brings back memories, this does. I used to drop the heavy end of the hammer on the guys back home all the time.

Torve [catching the subtext]: "Did you, now. Well, you're playing with the big boys here, not the little people. You may not find the sort of rewards you're used to.

Han: "I'm not exactly an amateur myself. I've won ... oh, probably sixty-three games in the last month alone."

Torve: Lot of rewards in numbers like that. [looks around , catches sight of Lando]. You willing to put your money where your mouth is?

Han: I'll meet anything you've got.

Irritated bystander: This is all very interesting, I'm sure, but some of us would like to play cards!


Bolding mine. And so, with hints and subtle undertones Torve and Han reach an understanding through a plausible, deniable conversation which has no overt content that could be used in court against either of them. You have to already know what they're talking about to catch the hidden undercurrents. I suppose this is something real smugglers have to do as well.

Torve is able to make use of Han as a distraction. His smuggling contact, a "Reverend", ostensibly anti-gambling, slips a 'skifter', a con man's card which changes faces whenever a certain spot on the card is touched, into Han's hand while loudly denouncing him as a cheater. In the resulting commotion, Torve makes his getaway while the security team is fully engaged with investigating this allegation of cheating.

It takes awhile, but Han is cleared and is free to go. He returns to the Falcon to find Torve and Lando waiting for him. Torve is grateful. They discuss his smuggling job here -- food , evidently. There is a band of recalcitrant citizens in the hills who want to preserve their independence from the central government, so that same government has cut off their food and other supplies. Torve is thus running food to the hills, and the "Reverend" who just saved him is his smuggling contact.

Running food can't be the most lucrative gig in the world. Does Karrde have a conscience?

At any rate, Karrde asks some questions to which he already knows the answer. He wants to find out whether Han and Lando are going to level with him or cheat him. "People who lie about their history usually lie about the job, too."

Han and Lando pass his test, and they get down to business. Han pitches his ships offer to Torve, who finds it interesting enough to bring them to Karrde himself. They will travel in the Falcon with the navigation set by a coded, erasable module. They will have no idea how they got there. It's up to Karrde whether they will have to do the same thing on the way out.

And so our heroes set out towards the main base .. where Luke is being held prisoner.

Iiinteresting.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Cikomyr]

Question to everyone: How are you feeling about the pace? I could certainly go with three chapters per day instead of the 2 we had so far, if most of you would also prefer that.

2 chapters at a time is perfect. As you can see, we are rarely running out of things to discuss anyway, and 3 chapters might make us miss some juicy conversation s.

I will forever imagine the Bimms as Ferengi now...

[Cikomyr]

I actually meant "How does he do it when he's inside a Force-null bubble himself (like he is any time he's on the bridge of the Chimaera)?", but now that you mention it during the three-part raid he uses it on the crew of the Chimaera, too.

It is a huge plot point that the Chimaera is NOT inside an anti-force bubble. That there is just a handful of Ysalamari onboard.

[pendell]

It is a huge plot point that the Chimaera is NOT inside an anti-force bubble. That there is just a handful of Ysalamari onboard.

Not at all. As discussed earlier, Battle Meditation improves the Chimaera's efficiency by 40%. So the Chimaera must be open to the Force in order to realize that benefit. So there are only a few Ysalamir, to prevent C'baoth mind-controlling critical command and control.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The Glyphstone]

The field of a Ysalarmi is explicitly limited, and rather small unless you chain them (already stated). Thrawn keeps one by his side to guard against betrayal while Joruus is outside the field but within earshot.

As for why they weren't issued to the Noghri, I can think of two reasons. One possibility is that Thrawn's plans require such a large number of them (and harvesting is inconvenient enough) that one Ysalarmi is worth a lot more to him than a few dozen Noghri, which he has an apparently large supply of and are expendable. The second possibility is that he doesn't want to risk Luke or Leia finding out about them (specifically, that Thrawn is using them) in the event that a kidnap attempt fails anyway. He clearly has plans for them, and doesn't want to risk exposing these plans yet. Besides, Noghri are expendable.

Also, I definitely get the impression that a Ysalamiri carrier frame (the portable ones) are very big and bulky things. Carrying one around on your back, particularly for a short creature like a Noghri, is pretty much the exact opposite of quick+stealthy.

[TheThan]

One interesting thing is that Mara shows a considerable amount of restraint for someone who wants so desperately to kill Luke skywalker. She’s had at least three opportunities to try to take his life and has not. We know that she’s loyal to Karrde, but how loyal? Does she hate Skywalker so much as to throw away everything she’s accomplished inside Karrde’s organization and start fresh? I have no doubt that Karrde would indeed fire her for killing Luke; despite that solving a lot of his problems. Karrde would be disappointed in her behavior.

I also love the covert scene with Han and Lando. The coded talk is entertaining and well done. We know what they’re talking about as readers, but the other characters don’t and clearly have no patience for small talk.

[Yora]

I think she doesn't really care much for that. From what I remember, being a smuggler is not a job she likes, but a way to get contacts in the underworld that will eventually allow her to get Luke. Once that is done, she doesn't need Karrde anymore. But I think we're getting a lot more information on that subject in the next few days.

Also, I definitely get the impression that a Ysalamiri carrier frame (the portable ones) are very big and bulky things. Carrying one around on your back, particularly for a short creature like a Noghri, is pretty much the exact opposite of quick+stealthy.
That might indeed be a relevant element too.

Also, so far it hasn't become apparent that the first two attempts failed because of the Force. The first time the noghri just walked up on Luke and he tried to talk them down, and when he was cornered and had to fight, the actual fighting took only a few seconds, during which the entire team was killed. The other team got defeated by Han calling Chewbacca for help. The second time Han and Leia just didn't take the bait, but neither the noghri nor Thrawn know that it was because Leia felt that Chewbacca was not on the fake ship. And if there was indeed a team on Kashyyyk and it wasn't just a vision of the future, then they screwed up because one of them allowed himself to be spotted by Leia.
Luke killed one team with his lightsabre when the noghri tried to politely gave him a wink to come with them without causing trouble. So far, Luke and Leia having the Force was not really the reason why the captures have failed. And I think Luke really is just the consolation prize, Leia and the kids are the really valuable targets.

Another one is that Thrawn also doesn't really want to give Luke and Leia to C'Baoth right now. Because that man is so impatient, Thrawn has to make it look like he is doing everything he can, but it's actually in his favor if the capture gets delayed.
Now C'Baoth could demand that the next time the noghri get two ysalamiri with them, but I don't think he's the type of person who would even think of such a plan. A Jedi capturing Jedi by negating the Force powers of his captives? To him, that would probably be the ultimate sign of weakness. Not that he ever had a lot of trust in the noghri succeeding to begin with.

[TheThan]

Now C'Baoth could demand that the next time the noghri get two ysalamiri with them, but I don't think he's the type of person who would even think of such a plan. A Jedi capturing Jedi by negating the Force powers of his captives? To him, that would probably be the ultimate sign of weakness. Not that he ever had a lot of trust in the noghri succeeding to begin with.

C'baoth is also incredibly arrogant (not to mention insane to boot), he thinks just because he has the force no-one else can even be remotely competent at their jobs. of course the Noghri failed, they're not Jedi. clearly a Jedi can only be captured by another Jedi. if they were remotely competent they would know this but they can't be because they're not Jedi.

[Yora]

Both Thrawn and C'Baoth think they are in charge. Right now C'Baoth is willing to allow Thrawn trying things his way and obviously failing at that, and Thrawn is okay with making a half-hearted attempt to capture Luke and Leia to give C'Baoth the illusion that his demands are taken seriously.

[Cikomyr]

Not at all. As discussed earlier, Battle Meditation improves the Chimaera's efficiency by 40%. So the Chimaera must be open to the Force in order to realize that benefit. So there are only a few Ysalamir, to prevent C'baoth mind-controlling critical command and control.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I am telling you that the Chimaera not.being in a Forceless Bubble is a.massive plot point.

But not one until way later.

[Gnoman]

The small size of a Ysalarmi's anti-Force bubble has already been established and repeated, including in the current chapters, and there's been no suggestion at all that there's more than one on the entire ship.

[Cikomyr]

The small size of a Ysalarmi's anti-Force bubble has already been established and repeated, including in the current chapters, and there's been no suggestion at all that there's more than one on the entire ship.

Exactly!!!

[Yora]

Chapter 21 and 22.

I have the certain impression that we are now done with all the exposition and setting up the plot, and now we are actually spending some time with the characters. The previous parts were all a bit rushed with a lot of things being explained and happening quite quickly. In these two chapters, not a lot has actually happened and instead we are starting to get into depth. Though now that I think of it, Han and Lando meeting Karrdes guy also took some real time to set the scene and have the characters thinking rather than getting to the important plot information quickly.

Karrdes situation is getting rather weird indeed. He has a secret prisoner, and the two people who want him both come visting at the same time while being unaware that Luke was even captured.

So far, and from what I had remembered, I had imagined Karrdes base as rather small. But if they are parking two bulk freighters plus a corvette there, it must be quite the big facility.

[pendell]

Hmmm ... can I take a shot at these chapters also?

Chapter 21

Karrde receives word that Han and Lando are inbound, so he gives instructions that Luke be moved to a storage area. Of course, such a hasty move may provide some way to escape.

Let the games begin.

Mara hustles Luke into a storage room at blaster point.

The shed is an out-of-the-way two room structure.

Artoo is in the room on the right, with a restraining collar attached. He can communicate but cannot move or act.

The room on the left is the only room with a lock, normally used for sensitive or dangerous equipment.

The door is a powered door, despite its lock, and may be opened if electricity is connected.

The room is windowless and empty save for shipping boxes which take up half the floor space.

Mara seem nothing which would enable an escape in the boxes.

She locks him in. Having done so, she next opens the lock plate with her blaster and melts the wires leading to the power supply; it is now impossible to open the door without going all the way back to the wall conduit. Skywalker can't get to that.

Now that she's gone, Skywalker can attempt to use this opportunity to escape. The battle of wits has begun.

Assets : He has nothing save his clothes and his body. His force powers are gone, thanks to the planetful of Ysalamiri.

But he does still have his wits .

And perhaps something else.

Step 1: Examine the boxes.
Result: Most of the boxes are sealed. Those which aren't contain clothing and spare equipment modules. Useless.

Step 2: Break off a bit of the metal door plate, already damage by Mara's blaster fire, and create an impromptu screwdriver. Use the screwdriver to open the wall socket and extract the power cord, in the hopes of powering up the door.

He finds he is a few centimeters short.

He also find that Jade thought of this one, too; the power to the wall outlet is cut. So whether he could have made it or not is irrelevant.

Step 3: Luke suddenly realizes he has a power source very close in hand. In fact, literally IN his hand. His artificial right hand has a power supply in it.

With artoo's instructions he removes one of the supplies from his hand, thus connecting to the door and opening it.

Zahn comments that this is the way a battle of wits should be; resolved not by outright stupidity but simply because one party legitimately had one less fact at her disposal than she needed.

This is why, by the way, super-geniuses like Thrawn or Holmes rarely work in real life. Outside of a book , life is rarely neat, orderly, with only a few possible inferences and conclusions. There are always more facts than we have, so the best we can hope for is a rough surmise, rarely a definitive conclusion outside the scope of well-defined logic problems.

Chapter 22 OR Guess who's coming to dinner?

Han , Lando and Karrde sit down to dinner. Mmm.. sounds tasty ... I wonder what they're eating?

At any rate, Han uses this opportunity to pitch his need for ships to Karrde. Karrde gently refuses; he does business in Empire territory, and he doesn't need the heat such a move would generate.

Han mentions his need of a slicer; We are introduced to Ghent; a quite, shy young man who is among the best in the business. Possibly the best.

As they are getting acquainted, a third guest arrives; no less a personage than Grand Admiral Thrawn himself, aboard the Chimaera. He speaks personally to Karrde over the comm. He is coming down to speak in person.

What about? First, he's in the market for capital starships, and he wants to put the word out for that.

Second, he wants more Ysalamiri. Probing, Karrde observes that he seems to be running through them quickly. Thrawn says he simply needs more of them; none have died.

Third, he wants to put pressure on Karrde to help hunt down Skywalker. Again.

Karrde is a bit taken aback but makes a new plan. Hide Han Solo and Lando. Keep them away from Luke. Keep all three parties ignorant of each other.

Why is this seeming less and less like an SF story and more like a high school drama? The one where the protaganist simultaneously invites three different girls to the same prom, and juggles frantically to keep them all entertained and apart? :)

Mara admits she didn't call the Imperials.

Hint 1: Mara seems to have a sense of loyalty and duty greater than her sense of vengeance.

Karrde explains that Han and Lando are guests and will be protected for that reason. As for Skywalker, he will also be hidden regardless of whether they eventually decide to turn him over to the Imperials or not. Because with a Star Destroyer overhead is NOT the time to enter negotiations. Lando had been in a deal with the Empire once; it hadn't ended well.

And that's why it's a good idea not to play the "I'm altering the deal, pray I don't alter it any further" game. It is a short-term win but the aftereffects really can be remembered for decades, in the GFFA and the real world.

So Han, Lando, and Ghent are hustled away along with the remains of the dinner while Karrde hurries to meet his new guest.

Mara goes to collect Luke but it is too late; Luke has already escaped and is in the process of commandering a Skipray Blastboat (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/GAT-12_Skipray_Blastboat) for his escape. Mara realizes what happens, and grabs its mate to pursue him. The two of them rocket out of the base at maximum speed, right under the nose of three Lambda-class Imperial shuttles and a squadron of escorting TIE fighters.


Awkward.


TO BE CONTINUED ....

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gnoman]

The thing that bugs me about these chapters is that Han's still looking for a slicer, and I don't understand why. The whole reason he wanted one was to tap into the diplomatic channel secretly while he and Leia were in hiding, but he's already decided to pick her up and take her back home, because the Fey'la problem's gotten too bad for her to sit it out. It's not as if he needs an excuse to find Karrde, since his "looking for freighters" mission is quite valuable enough.

[Yora]

But those kidnappers are still out there and the palace is still dangerous. Once the current crisis is dealt with, it might be neccessary to disappear again.

[Cikomyr]

The thing that bugs me about these chapters is that Han's still looking for a slicer, and I don't understand why. The whole reason he wanted one was to tap into the diplomatic channel secretly while he and Leia were in hiding, but he's already decided to pick her up and take her back home, because the Fey'la problem's gotten too bad for her to sit it out. It's not as if he needs an excuse to find Karrde, since his "looking for freighters" mission is quite valuable enough.

Well, the security leak on Coruscant is an ongoing concern, and the slicer is relevant in identifying it.

[TheThan]

Chaper 23:

We open chapter 23 with Luke at the helm of the skipray blastboat. He sees Thrawn’s ships coming down and assumes that Karrde had come to his decision and that the imperials are there for him. Not a bad assumption given the circumstances.

He’s also certain the skipray that’s chasing him is Mara Jade. Not a bad bit of intuition. In an attempt to elude Mara, Luke attempts a maneuver called a “drop kick koiogram Turn”. The book doesn’t explain precisely what this maneuver does other than get a pursuer off your tail.
However Luke is unfamiliar with the craft and his attempt causes him to clip the trees and he goes down, Mara’s ship being very close, is caught in the slipstream and crashes as well. so they both go down in the middle of the hostle Myrrk forest.

Meanwhile back at Karrde’s base, Karrde gets to match wits with Thrawn face to face as he tries to come up with a plausible excuse for the sudden rabbiting of two of his ships while under the nose of a star destroyer. Thrawn sends part of his personal escort, storm troopers, to investigate the crash site,

Han, Lando and Ghent are safely tucked away in the falcon, or so Karrde thinks. In fact, the three have crept to the edge of the clearing and are watching Karrde and Thrawn’s exchange. This is where they learn through Ghent (who can’t seem to shut up while under stress) spills the beans about the grand admiral. Suddenly it all becomes clear as to why the new republic is getting beaten militarily; although they don't learn Thrawn’s name. Han and Lando also learn from Ghent that Thrawn is after the Ysalamiri, although nobody knows what they do and that he has a prisoner locked up in the storage shed.

Back at the crash site; Luke is getting back on his feet, remarkably unhurt despite the high speed crash. Artoo has lost his data port connector, it snapped off in the crash, but is otherwise undamaged. Luke gets the both of them out of the crashed ship and decides to go for Mara. Despite her hatred for him, he is still going to do the right thing. She seems injured but it’s a ruse to get him under the point of her blaster again. They grab a survival pack and run into the forest and hide; in time to evade the storm troopers Thrawn sent. We learn that Mara actually is injured with a sprained ankle; although she doesn’t show it. We get more clues to Mara’s past as she is familiar with imperial procedures under all sorts of situations; such as stormtroopers checking out a crash site and that she knows how to use a lightsaber, this really surprises Luke.

Mara decides to take them to the city located on the other side of the forest, sans Artoo. Luke argues that they need him and even comes up with a way to get an encrypted message back to karrde by relaying it through Artoo to luke’s X-wing. This seems to convince her to drag him along, although she puts him to work doing it; knowing it'll slow them down.

Chapter 24:

Thrawn has left Karrde’s compound and Han and Lando are able to finish their discussion with Karrde. They learn that he is in the business of information and a lot of the questionable actions he takes are for the purpose of gathering information. Lando and Han decides to investigate the shed where they stashed Luke. It doesn’t take them long but they piece together that it was Luke Karrde had locked up. Karrde confronts them and they learn that Karrde doesn’t deal in slaves or kidnappings. This matches what we’ve already seen of his operation; smuggling food and medicine to people who need it. Clearly Karrde has a heart. He convinces Lando and Han that he’s not working with the imperials because he didn’t turn them or Luke over to them while they were at his base.

Back on the Chimera, Thrawn decides that Karrde is up to something and dispatches a squad of storm troopers (which are in short supply apparently) to the surface and a few other solders as well. he suspects that Luke skywalker is down there but has no real proof. He’s playing a hunch. Also we learn that Thrawn has had a chance to view the sort of art Karrde collects; thus giving him insight into his psyche. Will this come into play later? *duhn duhn dunnnn*

We also learn that Thrawn has his eyes set on the Sullust Van Ship yards. we know he's lured ships away from the ship yards in preparation for this attack, but what could that attack entail? I'm sure we'll find out.

Luke, Mara and Artoo spend the rest of the day preparing to move out, they've sent a signal to Karrde and are bedding down for the night. We learn even more about Mara, that she has had training, her specific skill set is not talent combined with skills acquired along the way. She’s also wracked with internal turmoil, her need to kill Skywalker vs her loyalty to Karrde and her knowledge of what happens should he be taken by the imperials. she keeps telling herself that she's not loyal to Karrde and that he doesn't owe her anything, but at the same time, she can't bring herself to just murder Luke right there. she keeps coming up with excuses herself or letting others talk her into not doing it.

She shoots a Vornskr that was creeping up on Luke, it appears that Sturm and Drang have been neutered in a sense, their whip tails have been removed to make them more docile and less likely to injure others as they move about. They’re still pretty awesome though.

Lastly we see Karrde staring out at the night. He knows he has to pull up operations and leave, but part of him doesn’t want to. Myrrk has become home to him and it sucks abandoning it. But he does what he must to stay one step ahead of the Empire.

[pendell]

Chapter 23: I Hate You So Much

Luke is fleeing from the base in his commandeered fighter as quickly as he can, hotly pursued by Mara.

He attempts what modern piloting would call an Immelman turn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immelmann_turn)

Skill: Pilot
[ roll 1d20 ] = 1

Ooops.

And smashes his craft into the forest.

Mara is following a little too closely, ALSO hits the critical fumble, and her craft augers in right behind him.

Perhaps Luke has gotten a little bit lazy ; relying too heavily on the Force , such that his unassisted piloting has suffered.

Meanwhile , The three Lambda shuttles touch down on Karrde's landing pad as Tie Fighters roar overhead in a perfect formation. Karrde expects Thrawn to come out of the center shuttle, so is entirely surprised when he emerges from the rightmost shuttle instead.

Thrawn isn't most Imperial officers; he understands the value of subtlety and deception.

Thrawn enquires about the little air show he and his pilots witnessed on their way in . Thinking fast, Karrde explains that an employee had stolen something and fled; the second ship was in pursuit. It is even mostly true; a prisoner and a droid were stolen; the only thing false in this story is that the thief was no employee, but the most wanted man in the Empire.

Thrawn is not especially convinced by his story, and sends his own troops to investigate the crash site. Karrde protests, but when Thrawn insists he is in no position to refuse.

This is the problem with neutrality, as Therkla (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0592.html) discovered; the more powerful and determined the opposing sides are, the hard and harder it is to strike a balance between them .

For Karrde, the balance beam has shrunk to a wire.

His life is only getting more difficult.

Han and Lando, never the most well-behaved guests at the best of times, have worked together to get line-of-sight into the events on the pad, despite Ghent's best efforts. Ghent's babble also reveals useful facts.

1) There is an Imperial Grand Admiral present, probably leading the Imperial forces. This was not something anyone in the New Republic was yet aware of.

2) There is a Noghri present [though they don't know the name yet]. Han recognizes it as one of the sames species as the one which kidnapped Leia.

...

Seems kind of speciesist is to me. Why assume that all members of a species are all commandoes in service of the Empire? That's like assuming all humans are stormtroopers.

Regardless, Han and Lando now have confirmation of their suspicions that the kidnap attempt is Imperial in nature. Is Karrde assisting them?

3) Ghent lets slip that a prisoner was, until recently, being held in the storage sheds, and it is probably that prisoner that just stole a Skipray.

They determine to do a records search on Grand Admirals back on Coruscant. In the meantime, they are going to gather as much intelligence as they can, then get out.


MEANWHILE...

Luke wakes up from unconsciousness. Seeing both ships wrecked, he goes to check on the other fighter to encounter a seemingly senseless Mara Jade. As he leans in to have a closer work, she wakes up and sticks a blaster in her face. She was deliberately shamming to sucker him in.

We now spend several minutes as Timothy Zahn attempts to find a convincing rationalization for Mara Jade not to kill Luke Skywalker out of hand.

This cheerful reunion is interrupted by the Imperial search party dispatched by Thrawn. Mara hides Luke and herself from the troops, who soon depart. Why?

Mara explains that she did not want to return with the rescue party because she didn't know what story Karrde was telling them, and she wanted to get the story straight before waltzing in.

Why is Luke still alive? Luke is able to talk her into sparing both her and R2, offering his and R2's help both with sensors to detect the local wildlife, which is very dangerous, and to arrange an R2-encrypted transmission to his X-wing, which Karrde should be able to read using the X-wing's computer.

That all seems very reasonable , but Mara could have killed them both at the start before listening to them talk. Why not? Is there some something hidden going on here...?

If she really wanted him dead, she should have shot him as soon as he poked his head into her cockpit.

Strange.

They agree to travel together to Hyllyard city, the nearest town. Luke suggests a travois to carry Artoo, so with a certain degree of skill Mara uses Luke's lightsaber to cut branches from trees and orders Luke to construct the stretcher.

So she can use a light saber. Interesting.

3) We also learn why Mara hates Luke: She tells him "You destroyed my life."

You look plenty alive to me....


Chapter 24

Karrde comes to speak to a suspicious Han and Lando. Karrde explains that the Imperials are here for Ysalamiri, which he is assisting them with in exchange for the opportunity to observe their operations. Seemingly accepting this, Han and Lando excuse themselves to look at the Falcon ...

Except they don't go to the Falcon. They are much more interested in the storeroom that may contain prisoners.

They enter the two-room assembly and find:
1) A droid restraining collar.
2) A tri-wheel track such as that made by an R2 unit.
3) A miniature power supply jury-rigged to the door controls. Examination reveals that this is a power supply used in biomedical implants -- such as artificial hands.

Putting these pieces together, they conclude Skywalker was held prisoner here and draw blaster on Karrde when he walks in on them.

Caught in his deception, Karrde admits that, yes, Skywalker had been held prisoner here. He was the one who stole the Skipray.

Han accuses him of slaving and kidnapping. We know from the last three chapters [though I didn't mention it in the summary] that Han HATES slavers with a passion. Karrde appears to have only seconds to live...

He denies the claim, truthfully admitting that Skywalker had pretty much dropped into his lap.

He also points out that he neither turned Skywalker over to the Empire nor did he turn over Han and Lando. This assuages their anger somewhat, at least to the point of not killing him on the spot. They ask to see Luke's X-wing. Karrde agrees, but only in the morning. The planet is really dangerous at night.

MEANWHILE ... Star Destroyer Chimaera.

Pelleon finds Thrawn in his art gallery considering the works of Sluis Van. He deduces from their art that they have a cycle of activity, and in the next few days they will be as lethargic as possible. It is at this time he will attack them, and brook no delay for any reason.

So he orders Pelleon to send a detachment to Hyllyard City. The reason Pelleon is in this room at all is to report on the findings of the search team -- they found the approximate landing site, but could not pinpoint it exactly. The forest is doing terrible things to their sensors. Also, they detected the R2-encrypted message but cannot decode it. Nor does it match normal Rebel encryption.

Hearing this, Thrawn leaves 30 storm troopers, half a bike scouting unit, and 2 Chariot Assault Vehicles (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/LAVr_QH-7_Chariot) at Hyllyard city. It is the only reasonable destination with the survival supplies aboard the Skiprays.

Pelleon is curious as to why.

Thrawn explains his reasoning:

1) The pursuing Skipray did not radio base nor was it contacted by Karrde. Thus, this was a mission conducted entirely in comm silence.

Something the Imperials were not to know about.

And , therefore, not the pursuit of a common thief. There would be no reason to hide that from the Empire.

2) During the earlier conversation in which Thrawn had strongly pressed Karrde to join the hunt for Skywalker, Karrde had acted as if he had assumed the hunt was over -- why would he do that?

3) Karrde had refused to join the hunt for Skywalker. Why?

From these three bits of evidence, Thrawn speculates -- not proves beyond doubt, but at least speculates -- that it is possible the escaping prisoner is none other than Skywalker himself. He is not so certain of this as to bring in Karrde for interrogation, but certain enough to gamble a landing force on that assumption. Their orders are to capture Skywalker if that is , indeed, who emerges from the forest .. and eliminate Karrde if this should prove to be the case.

MEANWHILE..

Our romantic couple is trudging through the forest. We learn that Mara, being a good girl scout, was prepared for this contingency. She has taken the time to scout out the forest, hunt the more dangerous predators, and keeps her finger on the pulse of the local settlers and politics. "Know the territory" was a primary lesson drilled into her in her former life.

... What WAS that former life? ... It is one that involved survival training, training in lightsaber tactics, and a life which was completely destroyed by Luke. How?

Mara considers to herself her own reasons for doing what she's doing; both keeping Skywalker alive and coming back to aid him. The reason is clear in her mind. If neither she nor Skywalker emerge from the forest, Karrde will be taken by the Empire, interrogated, executed.

Mara would not see this happen. She knows that Karrde would risk everything to save her and will not abandon her on this planet. She returns loyalty for loyalty.

NOTE: Mara Jade is loyal to her friends.


R2 earns his keep by detecting a wild Vornskyr, which Mara shoots down. Good reflexes and aim.

Meanwhile, Skywalker is earning her respect -- he has conducted himself well on this little camping trip, far better than someone with Force Powers and a high military rank and a presumably pampered life could be expected to .

She doesn't know the former farm boy very well at all.

She is determined to find out more about him before she kills him. And she is determined that no one -- not vornskyrs, not Imperials -- will take that away from her. Only I Can Kill Him (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OnlyICanKillHim).

Karrde meets with his subordinate, Aves, on the quiet. His life is coming down around his eyes. He orders Aves to get together a team to rescue Luke from the city -- like it or not, Luke is a guest. Karrde has a sense of honor.

Aves is happy with this assignment. Many of the smugglers feel they owe Luke big time -- literally, as they had previously been in debt to Jabba the Hut, who presumably did the normal loan shark practice of exhorbitant interest followed by leg-breaking or worse for non-payment. The death of Jabba on his sail barge made life a lot easier for many , many people on the other side of the law.

Karrde isn't entirely pleased with this... because his orders are to rescue Luke. But in the event rescue is infeasible, Luke is to be eliminated. He knows too much.

DARK SIDE POINTS: Karrde.

TO BE CONTINUED...

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[nyjastul69]

I fell behind in my reading this weekend. I had a coupla parties to attend. I'm caught up now.

I must say that I find the dialogues very well written. I especially like the exchanges between Karrde and Han. They are more similar than either one might like, or admit.

In regards to the reading rate, I'm fine with 2 chapters per day. I think it probably helps focus the daily discussions. More might be a bit too cumbersome. I was going to suggest more chapters per day because 2 seemed kinda slow, the first several chapters are short. Now that we've almost finished the first book, I'm glad I didn't suggest it. Moving to 3 per day would work, but I think 2,works better, especially with the chapters lengthening a bit.

I'll also add that the synopses are so well done I don't feel that I even need to read the book. ;) Well, sorta, anyway.

[TheThan]

Personally I think the Skipray blastboats (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/GAT-12_Skipray_Blastboat ) aren’t true fighters like the rebellion’s X-wings or the empire’s tie fighters.

I feel they fit a different role, that of gunship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunship).
They’re heavier armed and require a larger crew than a fighter, but are not full capital ships either. so they're something in between a capital ship and a starfighter, so gunship.

Edit
The thing even reminds me of a hind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-24) or an Apache (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_AH-64_Apache)

[pendell]

A gunship is a fair assessment, I think. I agree that it is an attack ship designed for merchants or warships rather than a superiority fighter. It might be able to outmaneuver a star destroyer but not much else. In a dogfight against ties or xwings it is lunch.

Still the speed and armor means its just perfect for a torpedo run, provided it has an escort of , say, z-95s to keep ties away. Also ideal for customs and patrol against merchant craft. But with no crew or cargo space it wouldn't make a pirate; I suspect Karrde uses them for security.

All in all, a heavier, faster, better armed but more expensive Y-wing, I think.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[nyjastul69]

A gunship is a fair assessment, I think. I agree that it is an attack ship designed for merchants or warships rather than a superiority fighter. It might be able to outmaneuver a star destroyer but not much else. In a dogfight against ties or xwings it is lunch.

Still the speed and armor means its just perfect for a torpedo run, provided it has an escort of , say, z-95s to keep ties away. Also ideal for customs and patrol against merchant craft. But with no crew or cargo space it wouldn't make a pirate; I suspect Karrde uses them for security.

All in all, a heavier, faster, better armed but more expensive Y-wing, I think.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

OK. You seem pretty knowlegeable. What are the differences between an X/Y/B- wing fighters, or are some of them not fighters at all?

[Jon D]

X is a generic fighter, B is a superiority fighter, Y is a bomber and the A is an interceptor.

The X should be the superiority fighter while the B replaces the Y as a fighter/bomber, but that never happen.

[nyjastul69]

X is a generic fighter, B is a superiority fighter, Y is a bomber and the A is an interceptor.

The X should be the superiority fighter while the B replaces the Y as a fighter/bomber, but that never happen.

Ok, that is pretty much what I thought. I knew the Y was a bomber. I actually thought the X was superiority fighter and the B a generic. I forgot about the A-class though. Thanks. I bet the X-wing series will explain their individual roles more clearly.

[TheThan]

X is a generic fighter, B is a superiority fighter, Y is a bomber and the A is an interceptor.

The X should be the superiority fighter while the B replaces the Y as a fighter/bomber, but that never happen.

You’re a bit off.
The X-wing is a space superiority starfighter. It’s primarily designed to destroy other starfighters but it’s solid combination of speed, firepower, shielding and agility make it a superb multi-role fighter.

The Y-wing is a fighter/bomber. It’s designed to deliver proton torpedoes onto a target, but it can also dogfight. It’s also equipped with Ion cannons so it can disable enemy ships for others to board.

The B-wing is an assault fighter. Designed to be a replacement for the aging Y-wing. The Bwing is heavily armed and carrries a bigger payload, it’s also equipped with ion cannons. It fills the same roles as the Y-wing.

The A-wing is an interceptor. It’s designed to destroy other starfighters; it’s primarily meant to protect bigger ships by rushing out there and engaging enemy fighters before they get into weapons range. It's also capable at reconnaissance work.

Edit:
For the imperials we have the TIE series of fighters.

TIE fighter- as the name suggests this is the standard space superiority fighter for the imperial forces, it’s as fast as an X-wing and quite a bit more agile. However it does not have the armament or the defensive capabilities of the X-wing since it lacks proton torpedos and shields.

Tie bomber- filling the need to bomb planetside targets and hitting enemy ships from outside turbo laser range, we have the time bomber. Because of it’s twin hull design and heavy armament, the time bomber is about as fast as the Y-wing. It also lacks defensive shields.

Tie interceptor- designed to try to match the rebel fighters, the tie interceptor is basicly the next generation of tie fighter. It sports twice the firepower with quad wing tipped lasers, it also is faster and more agile than the X-wing. However it’s lack of shielding also makes it fragile.

The Tie Avenger- the more advanced tie fighter in the imperial navy. The Tie Avenger is the next evolution of the tie series. These ships are very fast and agile; flying circles around any fighter of it’s era. It’s also well armed with quad lasers and twin concussion missile launchers. It’s also the first tie to sport shields and a hyperdrive. This allows it take hits (increasing survival rates of pilots) and gives it the ability to operate independently of carriers or bases. They are however much more expensive than the older ties and therefore more rare. this ship is derived from Darth Vader's custom prototype tie fighter.

Tie Defender- The Most advanced tie imperial service, the tie defender is sort of a cheat. It’s noticeably faster than the tie avenger and much more agile as well. Additionally it mounts a similar armament with quad lasers, dual concussion missile launchers and the addition of double ion cannons. These ships are incredibly fast, incredibly well armed and armored with shields. The tie defender out performs all other fighters it’s era. However it’s tremendously expensive and a very rare sight limiting it’s use by the imperial navy even more than the Tie Avenger.

Other star fighters:

Assault gunboat- these single seat fighters are the equivalent of a Y-wing or B-wing. They are the first general deployment starfighter equipped with shields and hyperdrive in imperial service. Because they were equipped with hyperdrive and Ion cannons, they were used in a variety of rolls, from convoy escort, customs duty, planetary bombardment, and capture missions. The Assault gunboat saw as much action as any of the tie series of fighters.

Missile boat- the missile boat is a specialized bombing ship, designed to be deliver a lot of ordinance on target and escape with little effort, these advanced hyperdrive equipped bombers carried the largest payload of any starfighter used on both sides of the war. They were equipped with a unique and advanced booster system called S.L.A.M (SubLight Acceleration Motor); think afterburners in space.

there are also some very limited use tie fighters, these were specialist ships and prototypes that never saw anything more than limited use.

[pendell]

TheThanh's writeup is excellent; I agree with him on almost all points.

There are three minor quibbles:

1) According to Wookiepedia (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/IN_interceptor), TIE fighters and interceptors of the Thrawn era were retrofited with shields. It's source for this claim is the official Star Wars site (http://web.archive.org/web/20100325105443/http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/tieinterceptor/index.html). However, that link has since been removed, although as you can see it is still visible in archives. Presumably Disney has decided the Thrawn Era Never happened (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CanonDiscontinuity).

At any rate, the later TIE Fighter video game does indeed introduce Tie Fighters and TIE interceptors with shielding. They are still inferior to the TIE advanced because they do not possess the Advanced's speed nor do they possess hyperdrive capability or the ability to mount tractor beams. Still, while the Star Destroyer remains the primary component of Imperial naval philosophy, they no longer have the resources to simply throw pilots away, and so shields have been added.

Still, I don't think the presence of absence of shields in TIE fighters will ever be of any significance in this trilogy, so believe what you wish :).

2) As shown in the Tie Fighter video game, the Missile Boat (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Missile_Boat) was originally specifically designed by none other than Thrawn himself as a counter to the TIE Defender. To accomplish this, they took a gunboat frame, stripped off all but a single token turbolaser, and added in some whopping huge missile arrays. Think of it as flying artillery. It made up for being unmaneuverable by being equipped with A) a powerful tractor beam. The incredibly maneuverable TIE Defender is helpless when caught in a tractor beam, forced to fly a straight path while the missile boat lines up its missile launchers for the kill. Which is not long in coming. B) It was, IIRC, the fastest fighter in the game even WITHOUT the addition of SLAM (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/SubLight_Acceleration_Motor) accelerators, which would double its speed for a very brief period of time.

The Missile boat was awe-inspiring for a very brief period of time in the Tie Fighter era, but is a lot less interesting in X-wing Alliance. While the Missile Boat makes an appearance in X-wing Alliance in the multiplayer portion of the game, so do ECM countermeasure devices. Killing a starfighter thus becomes a very expensive proposition in terms of missiles, and the Missile Boat goes from being the 'ultimate starfighter in the galaxy' to a very large artillery battery. Presumably this is why we don't see them much in Thrawn's era. They weren't cheap, and as we will soon see Thrawn has other, more immediate priorities for the Empire.

The first of which is the cloaking device, which he is testing in our read through, and the second is that "almost trivial" piece of technology which is not yet revealed.


3) The most terrifying thing about the TIE advanced, TIE defender, Assault Gunboat, and missile boat in TIE fighter was the ability to mount tractor beams. They weren't powerful enough to drag an enemy fighter to a stop, but they WERE powerful enough to inhibit enemy maneuvering, forcing them to fly in a straight line while you lined up the weapon of your choice on them. The most maneuverable fighter in existence -- i.e., the TIE Defender -- is helpless in the grip of a tractor beam. The tractor beam could also be replaced with a jamming beam, which would all but disable the target ship's fire control, allowing an uninterrupted approach by bombers.

None of these will make an appearance in the Trilogy. The out of story reason is that none of this had been invented yet -- Zahn used West End Games as his source for vehicle specs and did not innovate. The in-story reason is that most of these advanced fighters were removed from the Imperial roster when the head of starfighter development decided to use them to mount a coup d' etat and install himself as Emperor. It didn't work out so well for him. But the end of his coup [at the hands of Grand Admiral Thrawn] coincided with the battle of Endor. So not only were the plans and factories to build these vehicles lost at that time, the Empire has been in a constant state of chaos and retreat since then. So it hasn't been possible to start rebuilding these vehicles on any large scale.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gnoman]

None of these will make an appearance in the Trilogy. The out of story reason is that none of this had been invented yet -- Zahn used West End Games as his source for vehicle specs and did not innovate. The in-story reason is that most of these advanced fighters were removed from the Imperial roster when the head of starfighter development decided to use them to mount a coup d' etat and install himself as Emperor. It didn't work out so well for him. But the end of his coup [at the hands of Grand Admiral Thrawn] coincided with the battle of Endor. So not only were the plans and factories to build these vehicles lost at that time, the Empire has been in a constant state of chaos and retreat since then. So it hasn't been possible to start rebuilding these vehicles on any large scale.

As I recall, it was stated at some point that many Imperial admirals in high positions did everything they could to block the more advanced fighter concepts that might make an economical capital ships or even the lighter warships. They feared that, if the Powers That Be compared an X-wing (which was originally designed for the Empire, until a combination of this pressure and treasonous sentiment at Incom led to many of them being "stolen" by the Rebels) and a basic base station could do the job of a light cruiser at a fraction of the cost, they'd buy the fighters and not the cruiser, reducing the number of much-needed "real" ships available to sector commanders and reducing their prestige.

Also, a claim was made somewhere that the sheer scale of the Imperial fleet made switching to more expensive fighters a prohibitively expensive proposition, even if you did nothing but replace the existing squadrons.

[Jon D]

As I recall, it was stated at some point that many Imperial admirals in high positions did everything they could to block the more advanced fighter concepts that might make an economical capital ships or even the lighter warships. They feared that, if the Powers That Be compared an X-wing (which was originally designed for the Empire, until a combination of this pressure and treasonous sentiment at Incom led to many of them being "stolen" by the Rebels) and a basic base station could do the job of a light cruiser at a fraction of the cost, they'd buy the fighters and not the cruiser, reducing the number of much-needed "real" ships available to sector commanders and reducing their prestige.

Also, a claim was made somewhere that the sheer scale of the Imperial fleet made switching to more expensive fighters a prohibitively expensive proposition, even if you did nothing but replace the existing squadrons.

I seem to remember Incom pulling up stakes due to an impending nationalization of the company.

As for upgrading the star fighter fleet, it made sense not to for a few reasons, cost being one. The main thing in my mind being that there were so many bloody TIEs in service already, along with support equipment and technicians, not to mention the heavily trained pilots (who were supposed to be elite) that your wind up losing the massive investment they represent.

Besides, while a hyper capable fighter is great for the Rebellion, due to being able to jump into a system, trash key targets and then jump out again, the Imperial warmachine is really about showing the flag as much as getting stuff done. Local system getting antsy? Jump in a SD as a reminder of why you really don't want to be doing that.

[hamishspence]

I seem to remember Incom pulling up stakes due to an impending nationalization of the company.
Going by the article:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Incom_Corporation

the order of events seemed to be:

Company nationalised
Engineering team defects
Many company people remaining are imprisoned.

[Jon D]

Going by the article:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Incom_Corporation

the order of events seemed to be:

Company nationalised
Engineering team defects
Many company people remaining are imprisoned.

Sounds right to me. I seem to remember reading that in the Rebellion sourcebook for SW D20, many a year ago.

[Cikomyr]

X is a generic fighter, B is a superiority fighter, Y is a bomber and the A is an interceptor.

The X should be the superiority fighter while the B replaces the Y as a fighter/bomber, but that never happen.

Well, the B is probably much much more expensive than the Y, and its design/learning curve is probably much more complex than the Y-Wing.

Still is a very solid bomber and poor man's superiority.

What are the E-Wings?

[hamishspence]

Escort starfighter - originally intended to replace the X-Wing:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/E-Wing

but it developed a few bugs, the X-Wing turned out to be very upgradable (and the authors didn't want to get rid of it) and as a result the two coexist rather than one replace the other.

[pendell]

Chapter 25

Back on Kasshyk , a band of 5 Noghri commandoes make a play for Leia. They set a fire in the neighborhood to divert attention, then hit Leia's house.

3 of them are immediately killed by wookies; they are using stun weapons because they are quieter, but they misjudge the power level; the wookie Ralrra is only weakened. Chewbacca is wounded. Salporin, the third wookie, is killed.

... They didn't know the exact power level needed to subdue a wookie? These Noghri really aren't much for thorough preparation , are they? I can see not knowing anything about Jedi, but they're going to an entire planetful of wookies. Not knowing that their weapons would be ineffective is well below the standard expected of commandoes, I think.

Nonetheless the wookies eliminate the three commandoes they face. The other two make it to Leia's bedroom, but even an untrained force user is no easy mark; Leia kills one with her lightsaber, but the second grabs her from behind.

At this point he smells something that he finds disturbing and immediately releases her.


He speaks one word: Mal'ary'ush.

He retreats and makes no further hostile moves. The wookies at this point break in and, due to his non-hostility, Leia shouts out for her rescuers not to kill the commando. Chewbacca, already in the middle of a killing blow, nonetheless makes his reflex save and converts his attack into a clout, which quite thoroughly subdues the commando.

The next order of business is escape; they do not get far before they are pursued by an additional group of Noghri in an airspeeder. Leia comes up with a clever plan; playing out a certain amount of rope, she creates a pendulum with her lightsaber as the 'ball' at the end. At the appropriate moment, she locks it on and drops it away. It goes down through the arc and back up into the pursuing machine, slicing off the airspeeder's repulsor. The Noghri aboard take a one-way trip to the Shadowlands (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shadowlands), which appear to be at least a kilometer down.

Not long after, Leia interviews the captured commando at the local police station. The commando smells her hand again and hails her as Mal'ary'ush -- the heir of Lord Darth Vader, their master.

It seems that an interstellar battle was fought over the Noghri homeworld, and the aftermath of the battle poisoned the planet. The Empire won the battle, and Darth Vader descended to have a look at what had transpired there. He offered the Noghri such medical supplies and other necessities which would make the planet habitable, in exchange for their service to the Empire. This they pledged gladly. But their loyalty is not to the Empire, but to Darth Vader personally.

Now that the commando -- who identifies himself as Khabarakh -- realizes Leia's identity, he cannot act against her. He prepares to carry out his last order as a commando, which is to commit suicide in the event of capture.

Leia persuades him not to, as he is now in possession of information -- her true identity -- that the Noghri command needs to know. She calls on her time as a royal to play the dominant person in the room, carefully walking a line between attacking Vader's words without damaging Khabarakh's respect for the man. However much she detests her father, her newfound status with the commando exists solely due to their reverence for the man. Your approval fills me with shame (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YourApprovalFillsMeWithShame).

Leia and Khabarakh discuss. Eventually they agree to meet over the moon of Endor in one month's time. Khabarakh will take the opportunity to present Leia's case to the Noghri Elders. If they are both able to get free, Leia will meet him over Endor and accompany him to the Noghri homeworld.

Chapter 26

Mara and Luke are still enjoying their little camping trip in the woods. Mara has at this point been without sleep for six days, though she's still awake enough to shoot down the vornskyrs which R2 continues to detect.

They find a location to raise a transmission balloon, and receive a response from Karrde to the message they sent to the X-wing computer. it is 3PO's holographic image they see, in the hopes of further confusing any listeners.

3PO informs them that stormtroopers are waiting for them in the city. The story Karrde has given out is that an employee has stolen merchandise and was pursued by Mara Jade. Since Karrde did not identify Jade as a woman, he suggests they exchange roles when they reach the city. Luke will become "jade" and Mara will be the "thief."

It would be difficult to overstate the distaste Mara feels for this plan, all the more so because they really have no options.

3PO further informs them that a plan is in the works to intercept them before the stormtroopers do, or rescue them if this proves infeasible. In the meantime, they're on their own.

A short while later, fatigue takes its toll on Mara and she is jumped by a Vornskyr. Luke and R2 work together to rescue her. Between Luke impersonating a Krayt dragon call, a flank strike by R2 with his welding attachment, and Luke's lightsaber which he manages to retrieve from Mara, he quickly dispatches the creature.

He turns to find Mara's blaster pointed at him with a demand he surrender the lightsaber. Without the force, he stands no chance at deflecting her shots, and so acquiesces.

Mara says "thanks", but that is the extent of her gratitude. .So far as she is concerned, this is her karmic reward for keeping him alive.


Luke presses again as to the reason for her hatred and we learn some interesting facts about her.

Mara Jade was a personal assassin for the Emperor, designated the Emperor's Hand. Players of TIE Fighter will recognize the title. Along with The Emperor's Eyes, Voice, and Reach, these are operatives who work directly for the Emperor, outside of the chain of command. Even Darth Vader has no control over them.

The Emperor maintained these assassins as a counterweight to Darth Vader. He knew well that Lord Vader was attempting to supplant him, and so used the assassins to foil both him and other enemies.

On this particular assignment, Mara had been sent to Jabba's palace with orders to eliminate Luke.

In this, she failed. She had disguised herself as a slave dancer, but Jabba wouldn't let her come on the sail barge on that fateful trip, and he was immune to Jedi Mind Tricks. By the time she could try again, Jabba was dead and the quarry long gone.

And so now we understand the vision Luke saw in the cave in this book -- it was a vision not of the future, but an alternate past. In that timeline Mara Jade HAD made it onto the sail barge, and used the Force to foil his attempted escape, resulting in the death of both himself and his friends.

She had been the personal representative of the Emperor, with power, prestige, and respect. And Luke took it away from her.

..

You'll pardon my complete lack of any sympathy for this motive.

Luke asks why she isn't with the Empire. It seems her position was directly to the Emperor and no one else knew about it , so when he died she was cut loose. She believes the Empire is a spent force, so she has spent the time since doing what she could to survive, the only thing keeping her alive being her hatred of skywalker. And so she eventually linked up with Karrde.

Exposition over, they continue their journey.

===

I think Zahn really worked that into the story quite well, it didnt' bore me at all. It's also nice to see how Luke functions without his force powers for a change, having to rely on his own strength and wits. It's a welcome change, and makes him more of a hero, in my view.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[TheThan]

At any rate, the later TIE Fighter video game does indeed introduce Tie Fighters and TIE interceptors with shielding. They are still inferior to the TIE advanced because they do not possess the Advanced's speed nor do they possess hyperdrive capability or the ability to mount tractor beams. Still, while the Star Destroyer remains the primary component of Imperial naval philosophy, they no longer have the resources to simply throw pilots away, and so shields have been added.


I do not recall tie fighters and interceptors with shields at all. Maybe you’re referring to the funky experimental M series tie fighters?


Still, I don't think the presence of absence of shields in TIE fighters will ever be of any significance in this trilogy, so believe what you wish :).


Agreed


2) As shown in the Tie Fighter video game, the Missile Boat (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Missile_Boat) was originally specifically designed by none other than Thrawn himself as a counter to the TIE Defender. To accomplish this, they took a gunboat frame, stripped off all but a single token turbolaser, and added in some whopping huge missile arrays. Think of it as flying artillery. It made up for being unmaneuverable by being equipped with A) a powerful tractor beam. The incredibly maneuverable TIE Defender is helpless when caught in a tractor beam, forced to fly a straight path while the missile boat lines up its missile launchers for the kill. Which is not long in coming. B) It was, IIRC, the fastest fighter in the game even WITHOUT the addition of SLAM (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/SubLight_Acceleration_Motor) accelerators, which would double its speed for a very brief period of time.

The Missile boat was awe-inspiring for a very brief period of time in the Tie Fighter era, but is a lot less interesting in X-wing Alliance. While the Missile Boat makes an appearance in X-wing Alliance in the multiplayer portion of the game, so do ECM countermeasure devices. Killing a starfighter thus becomes a very expensive proposition in terms of missiles, and the Missile Boat goes from being the 'ultimate starfighter in the galaxy' to a very large artillery battery. Presumably this is why we don't see them much in Thrawn's era. They weren't cheap, and as we will soon see Thrawn has other, more immediate priorities for the Empire.


Yeah I couldn’t recall the exact reasoning behind the missile boat; it’s been forever since I’ve played tie fighter. While it was eventually countered by their enemies, the missile boat makes a great bomber. With its high speed and HUGE missile bays it can deliver a lot of pain onto a target and get away.



3) The most terrifying thing about the TIE advanced, TIE defender, Assault Gunboat, and missile boat in TIE fighter was the ability to mount tractor beams. They weren't powerful enough to drag an enemy fighter to a stop, but they WERE powerful enough to inhibit enemy maneuvering, forcing them to fly in a straight line while you lined up the weapon of your choice on them. The most maneuverable fighter in existence -- i.e., the TIE Defender -- is helpless in the grip of a tractor beam. The tractor beam could also be replaced with a jamming beam, which would all but disable the target ship's fire control, allowing an uninterrupted approach by bombers.

I didn’t completely forget about the tractor beams, I couldn’t recall which ship carried it though. Maybe I didn’t use it much in the game? dunno it as a long time ago.

[pendell]

I do not recall tie fighters and interceptors with shields at all. Maybe you’re referring to the funky experimental M series tie fighters?



Behold (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGcNGVGzjVA). TIE Fighter battle 9 Mission 1. The let's player made a 40 minute video out of it, but the Escort Carrier Jitte arrives at about 18:00 and we realize it is deploying shielded TIE fighters at approx. 20:27. You can see the shielded fighters in action later in the video.

They appear to be ordinary TIE fighters apart from the shields.

Given that the person in command of them -- Admiral Zaarin, head of Imperial starfighter development -- is counting on technology to offset the numbers of the Empire, it is reasonable for him to implement such a modification; he has more technology than he does pilots. Given that Thrawn was the one who took Zaarin down, it is also reasonable that Thrawn would acquire those specs and later use them.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gnoman]

I do not recall tie fighters and interceptors with shields at all. Maybe you’re referring to the funky experimental M series tie fighters?


I'm not sure about the TIE Fighter games, as I haven't played them in years, but Interceptors retrofitted with shields and even hyperdrives show up at points in the storyline. They're not particularly good because the extra mass robs them of their speed and agility advantages over the X-wing, which they're still slightly less durable and slightly worse armed (due to the lack of torpedoes) than. What I don't recall outside of the TIE Fighter games is arming standard TIE-LN or TIE-IN fighters with missile launchers.

[TheThan]

Behold (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGcNGVGzjVA). TIE Fighter battle 9 Mission 1. The let's player made a 40 minute video out of it, but the Escort Carrier Jitte arrives at about 18:00 and we realize it is deploying shielded TIE fighters at approx. 20:27. You can see the shielded fighters in action later in the video.


I must have taken them down quickly. I was a veteran X-wing player when I got Tie Fighter so yeah good at dogfighting back then.


Let’s see, it makes a lot of sense for Thrawn to employ hyperdrive equipped fighters. He’s basically running the same sort of campaign against the new Republic, that the Rebellion ran against the empire.

The tables have turned; he’s using the same hit and run tactics the rebellion used. Having hyperdrive equipped fighters would allow him to hit everywhere at once like the rebellion did. However he’s using the firepower of his fledging fleet to cause psychological terror. His attack on Bpfassh and the other two targets were not only a test of C’baoth’s ability, but were also designed to frighten their inhabitants and make them demand new republic aid. This worked. The republic has had to pull ships away from Sluis Van and even convert some of their warships into cargo vessels to meet the demand placed upon them by the terrorized citizens of these planets. We then learn that Thrawn has his eyes set Sluis van, indicating that his plan was to draw war ships away from the target to be able to hit it without being overwhelmed.

[Seerow]

I must have taken them down quickly. I was a veteran X-wing player when I got Tie Fighter so yeah good at dogfighting back then.


Let’s see, it makes a lot of sense for Thrawn to employ hyperdrive equipped fighters. He’s basically running the same sort of campaign against the new Republic, that the Rebellion ran against the empire.

The tables have turned; he’s using the same hit and run tactics the rebellion used. Having hyperdrive equipped fighters would allow him to hit everywhere at once like the rebellion did. However he’s using the firepower of his fledging fleet to cause psychological terror. His attack on Bpfassh and the other two targets were not only a test of C’baoth’s ability, but were also designed to frighten their inhabitants and make them demand new republic aid. This worked. The republic has had to pull ships away from Sluis Van and even convert some of their warships into cargo vessels to meet the demand placed upon them by the terrorized citizens of these planets. We then learn that Thrawn has his eyes set Sluis van, indicating that his plan was to draw war ships away from the target to be able to hit it without being overwhelmed.

Actually if I am remembering right, the plan was to draw more ships to Sluis Van, so they're available for him to steal. That's why he hit systems near the shipyards, rather than farther out (which would have drawn ships further away from the shipyards).

[Philistine]

Full discretion: I have a significant (possibly irrational :smallbiggrin:) degree of affection for the Y-Wing, which I consider to be the Hawker Hurricane of the Galactic Civil War - in that Y-Wings did most of the work, took most of the losses, and scored most of the kills, while the more glamorous and higher performing but less common X-Wings got most of the credit in people's minds. That said...


The Y-wing is a fighter/bomber. It’s designed to deliver proton torpedoes onto a target, but it can also dogfight. It’s also equipped with Ion cannons so it can disable enemy ships for others to board.

The B-wing is an assault fighter. Designed to be a replacement for the aging Y-wing. The Bwing is heavily armed and carrries a bigger payload, it’s also equipped with ion cannons. It fills the same roles as the Y-wing.
The Y-Wing started as a straight-up bomber type in Republic service during the Clone Wars; Rebellion-era techs stripped the old girls down to their frames and hot-rodded their engines to turn them into decent all-rounders. Not great, to be sure, but still able to whip their credit-cost-equivalent in TIE Fighters. Interestingly, the old warhorse seems never to have been fully replaced by the B-Wing - and indeed, seems to have soldiered on (in planetary militia and reserve squadrons at least) well into the era of the B-Wing's replacement, the K-Wing.


Well, the B is probably much much more expensive than the Y, and its design/learning curve is probably much more complex than the Y-Wing.

Still is a very solid bomber and poor man's superiority.
The B-Wing was expensive, yes, and pilot workload in one went up drastically compared to a Y-Wing (so much so that the New Republic eventually began buying two-seater variants... which naturally were even more expensive). But the main gripe usually leveled against the B-Wing concerns its mechanical unreliability - IIRC, Truce at Bakura (which opens immediately after the Battle of Endor) had the entire surviving B-Wing fleet unflyable pending major, depot-level maintenance.

The relative performance of the B-Wing is hard to judge. Everyone agrees that the A-Wing was faster and more agile than the X-Wing, which in turn was a hotter ship than the Y-Wing. I've seen sources which put the B-Wing in between the Y-Wing and the X-Wing on that scale (and closer to the X-Wing), while others put its performance below the Y-Wing. From my own long ago days and nights playing X-Wing, I'd take a Y-Wing over a B-Wing any day, especially for straight-up space superiority.


Escort starfighter - originally intended to replace the X-Wing:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/E-Wing

but it developed a few bugs, the X-Wing turned out to be very upgradable (and the authors didn't want to get rid of it) and as a result the two coexist rather than one replace the other.
I stopped reading the EU before the Super X-Wings showed up (NJO and the Yuuzhan Vong War, I think?), but the idea of them always struck me as odd. I more than half suspect that the reason the E-Wings disappeared and X-Wings surged back to the forefront had far more to do with lack of creativity and the "Well, we have to have X-Wings, it's Star Wars!" effect than it did any kind of notion of telling a coherent and believable story.

[LadyEowyn]

I love Luke and Mara's interactions. She's so vehement that she loathes him, but she keeps coming up with reasons to keep him alive. And Luke's so utterly unfazed by the revelation that she used to be the Emperor's personal assassin.

Chapter 25 is also a great moment for Leia. She knows nothing about the Noghri except that they've been trying to kidnap her and her unborn children and that they revere Vader, yet she's willing to travel alone to their world if it gives her even the slightest chance of freeing them from Imperial service. It demonstrates incredible courage and belief in diplomacy.

[TheThan]

Full discretion: I have a significant (possibly irrational :smallbiggrin:) degree of affection for the Y-Wing, which I consider to be the Hawker Hurricane of the Galactic Civil War - in that Y-Wings did most of the work, took most of the losses, and scored most of the kills, while the more glamorous and higher performing but less common X-Wings got most of the credit in people's minds. That said...


The Y-Wing started as a straight-up bomber type in Republic service during the Clone Wars; Rebellion-era techs stripped the old girls down to their frames and hot-rodded their engines to turn them into decent all-rounders. Not great, to be sure, but still able to whip their credit-cost-equivalent in TIE Fighters. Interestingly, the old warhorse seems never to have been fully replaced by the B-Wing - and indeed, seems to have soldiered on (in planetary militia and reserve squadrons at least) well into the era of the B-Wing's replacement, the K-Wing.


The B-Wing was expensive, yes, and pilot workload in one went up drastically compared to a Y-Wing (so much so that the New Republic eventually began buying two-seater variants... which naturally were even more expensive). But the main gripe usually leveled against the B-Wing concerns its mechanical unreliability - IIRC, Truce at Bakura (which opens immediately after the Battle of Endor) had the entire surviving B-Wing fleet unflyable pending major, depot-level maintenance.

The relative performance of the B-Wing is hard to judge. Everyone agrees that the A-Wing was faster and more agile than the X-Wing, which in turn was a hotter ship than the Y-Wing. I've seen sources which put the B-Wing in between the Y-Wing and the X-Wing on that scale (and closer to the X-Wing), while others put its performance below the Y-Wing. From my own long ago days and nights playing X-Wing, I'd take a Y-Wing over a B-Wing any day, especially for straight-up space superiority.


I stopped reading the EU before the Super X-Wings showed up (NJO and the Yuuzhan Vong War, I think?), but the idea of them always struck me as odd. I more than half suspect that the reason the E-Wings disappeared and X-Wings surged back to the forefront had far more to do with lack of creativity and the "Well, we have to have X-Wings, it's Star Wars!" effect than it did any kind of notion of telling a coherent and believable story.


I agree.
If I recall correctly, one of the major problems with the B-wing was that it was difficult to fly. The cockpit is mounted on the end of a flying wing… that rotated 90 degrees clockwise for combat. Instead of the ship being in line with the pilot like in all the other craft, it actually sat below the pilot. This made it difficult to compensate for when maneuvering and very hard to visualize.

It was not significantly faster or more maneuverable than the Y-wing, and it’s increased firepower was not a significant enough advantage to make up for it’s difficult flight characteristics. The Y-wing was a much more attractive choice because they already had them, they were easier to fly and cross train pilots to fly them and the other ships in their arsenal, and were proven effective against everything but the most advanced fighters the empire had.

The X-wing was the Premier tie killer in the rebel fleet. But when you needed the real work done, you called in the Y-wings. The Y-wing earned its reputation and it was used everywhere to do everything. I don’t know how suped up the Y-wings were but I recall they stripped off the hull plating to make it easier to get to the internal workings of the machines so they could keep them in top shape better. Apparently the hull was a pain in the tail to remove every time the rebel mechanics wanted/needed to work on them.

To borrow a line from a movie “fighter pukes make movies, bomber pilots make history!”.

[Aotrs Commander]

I, on the other hand, I have a rather dim view of Y-Wings, having extensively player TIE Fighter and X-Wing Alliance in the day - unless I was flying against them in which case, bring 'em on! Almost painfully easy to out-fly. Even given the plethora of enemies in TIE Fighter, I still recall with great amusement that out of the thousand-and-something kills I made during my proper run-throughthe campaigns... Y-Wing kills accounted for fully (and exactly) 10%.

Granted, those were all A4s - S3s with a turret gunner might have just about been more of a challenge, but still.

Give me assault gunboats anyway of the week. (Missileboats in preference obviously, but that's overkill...)

[Gnoman]

The thing is, I never really understood how the Y-wing was supposed to be much better as a bomber than the X-wing. The Y had 2 proton torpedo tubes with 4 shots each, the X had two tubes with 3 each. So they only advantage was having a single extra torpedo salve, which doesn't seem like that great a bargain for being much easier to kill. They don't seem any more durable when seen on film, as a couple of rear shots from a TIE kill both just fine during the trench run (note that the shields were not concentrated forward during those kills, as pilots mention "stabilizing rear deflectors) when they hear reports of fighters. They always struck me as "older ships that are easier to get" not "heavy bomber".

[pendell]

WRT theThanh's earlier remark, I don't think it's quite the same tactics. IF the source is believable, the TIE fighters and interceptors of the Thrawn era are equipped with shields but not hyperdrive. The Hit and Fade occurs by sending in a base ship such as an ISD, which deploys the fighters for a strike and provides fire support for them. Expensive, but there's decades of doctrine and training behind that decision. Possibly Thrawn is going to war with the Imperial Navy he has, not the one he wishes he had ... if he really wants to use small fighters more. I don't see any real indication that he does.

As far as the Y-wing goes, it is an obsolete craft but it does have a better torpedo loadout and it can take more punishment than an X-wing. So, again, if you've got X-wings it's better to let the Y-wings do the hard, dangerous work of bombing while freeing up the X-wing for what it does best; Dogfighting.

At least, that's the case in the early Rebellion era. Towards the end of the TIE Fighter game the X-wing is becoming increasingly obsolescent when faced with the newer Imperial craft. By the end the A-wing is the only real threat, thanks to its speed and missile armament.

TIE fighter veterans here comment they weren't afraid of Y-wings, and I agree; they were as common as dirt , presumably an older design produced in great quantities, so ever pirate , smuggler, and third-rate warlord had 'em. That said, I didn't have any more fear of the X-wing. It was A-wings that I feared, especially A-wings in flights of 6 or more with advanced concussion missiles. Those would ruin the day of any pilot.

When flying for the rebellion in X-wing I actually preferred the Y-wing over the X-wing. Sure , it was a slower craft but it had ion cannons. And ion cannons were my favorite toy, at least in the X-wing games. A guaranteed one or two-hit kill against an unshielded tie, it can also ruin the day of any other craft once the shields are down. Even the vaunted star destroyer, without shields, is so much floating scrap once the ion cannons come into play.

Chapter 27 The board is in place; the pieces are moving.

Thrawn and Pelleon are testing a cloaking device on a battered, nondescript freighter. The freighter itself appears unaffected by the test, but Thrawn is satisfied with it. They are prepared for the Sluis Van attack.

Pelleon asks why they aren't using C'baoth in this mission. There are a number of reasons , one of which is that they don't want to become totally dependent on him. The second is that Thrawn doesn't want C'baoth to get too much of a taste for this kind of power, lest he find it to his liking. So his role will be minimized until such time as he has Leia and the twins to distract him.
Once they are in position, C'baoth will consider them the most important thing of the universe and Imperial war will be nothing but a tedious chore. Thrawn is happy with this attitude, and seems to view Leia and the twin's value as something akin to a stuffed animal to be given to a petulant child.


Wedge Antilles and Rogue Squadron, meanwhile, have orders to escort freighters to the Sluis Van shipyards. Wedge isn't happy about it. His controller notes that it's actually a good idea -- it seems that Fey'la is getting ready to make his move, so it's a good day NOT to be on Coruscant.

So Rogue Squadron will be there at Sluis Van when Thrawn's plan --

cloaking device + freighter [Trojan horse?] + mole miners -- is put into execution.


Heh.

Chapter 28

Luke and Mara have a run in with Imperial military speeders. Mara and Luke discuss; it is likely the 'obvious' path in front of them is a trap to lure them in. Murphy's Laws of Combat again: The Easy Way Is Always Mined.

So they decide to eschew stealth and simply walk in. The role reversal is put into effect. With great reluctance Mara is convinced to hand over her blaster with power pack still inside; the imperials might very well check if it's loaded. Also, there may be more hunting Vornskyrs about, and it's not good to face them with an empty blaster.

Luke hides his lightsaber in R2. Mara makes note ; so THAT's how Luke got it into Jabba's palace. She warns him that the Force will not be operative here, so he won't be any better with it than an ordinary man would be.

Now, there's a matter of a disguise. Mara finds a bush seemingly akin to Earth's poison ivy which triggers a terrible allergic reaction on Luke's face, swelling it and making it appear grotesque, certainly nothing like his holos. Luke hates the itching ,but applies the treatment himself in order to complete the disguise, perhaps earning a touch of respect from Mara in the process.

And so "Jade" with the thief "Senni Kiffu" step right into the arms of the stormtroopers, who take them prisoner. Regrettably, these stormtroopers served under Thrawn and so don't jump to the obvious conclusion. Instead, they send for a medic to cure the swellings on "Jade's" face so they can see who he really is, and check out their stories.

As they are brought in, another prisoner joins them -- "Chin", in reality Han Solo, 'caught' while snooping around the edge of the forest.

Han notifies Luke that a rescue is being planned, and momentarily Luke sees it -- a village square with clear fields of fire just before a stone arch. A perfect place for an ambush -- but if it's clear to him, it must be just as obvious to the stormtroopers as well.

Thinking quickly, Luke comes up with an alternate plan. He trips R2 and, while going to help him up, tells him to broadcast to 3PO to hold the attack until they reach the stone arch -- apparent suicide, as it will give the Imperials cover, but R2 doesn't question -- he broadcasts under cover of a loud warble.

This raises the Imperial CO's suspicions, but Luke makes his bluff check. They push on to the arch .. and to Luke's plan.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Angelalex242]

Mara:You RUINED my life!
Luke: Don't worry, I will make full restitution.
Mara: Yeah, when I kill you!
Luke: ...Nah. I'll make full restitution on Niruan.
Mara: Wait, what?
Luke: I have foreseen it.

[Cikomyr]

One thing we have to keep in mind when considering Fighters capabilities, its not just the performance.

The degree of maintenance, the reliability, the repair cost and training difficulty in operating and making sure the bloody thing flies. Basically, the logistics aspect.

Probably why the Tie Fighter and the Y-Wing, outdated as they were, continued to operate for long periods of time after better alternatives came to existence.

[Aotrs Commander]

One thing we have to keep in mind when considering Fighters capabilities, its not just the performance.

The degree of maintenance, the reliability, the repair cost and training difficulty in operating and making sure the bloody thing flies. Basically, the logistics aspect.

Probably why the Tie Fighter and the Y-Wing, outdated as they were, continued to operate for long periods of time after better alternatives came to existence.

To be fair, though, the Y-Wing was used primarily by a rebellion who didn't have much choice in what that had to use (beggars can't be choosers and they didn't have enough construction facilities to shrug off perfectly capable fighters).

TIE Fighters, oin the other hand, arguably would have very low maintenance because there was just nothing IN them to break. (My favourite piece on the TIE Fighter was a little pocket pop-up book that went above and beyond in TIE Fighter-style propaganda, couching the lack of shields, landing gear, life support and the fact that visibility was so poor they had to make a window in the back to see out... in hilariously glowing terms, bu underlined that basic idea.) It only existed basically because budgetary reasons. It was cheap (probably for the same reaons!), and that was about all there was to it. (Someone mentioned the Empire's bias against the more advanced fighter stemmed from a fear that advanced fighters might replace capiatl ships in spending - given the performance of the Missile Boat, it was not an unfounded fear!) Hell, they had enough difficultly getting TIE Interceptors and Bombers out. (And to be fair, this is why you could have so many variants of the TIEs, because there was frack all inside 'em to take up space...!) And after the Empire had ordered a couple of kajillion TIE Fighters or something, they were so obiquitous that you'd nearly have to find a use for 'em.



There is, after all, only one fighter LOWER on the totem pole than the TIE Fighter and the Y-Wing... The TYE-Wing (more properly known and the DIE-Wing), which combined the worst spects of both. After which point, you'd probably be safer floating into a dogfight armed with a DL-18 and unfounded optimism...

[Cikomyr]

To be fair, though, the Y-Wing was used primarily by a rebellion who didn't have much choice in what that had to use (beggars can't be choosers and they didn't have enough construction facilities to shrug off perfectly capable fighters).

TIE Fighters, oin the other hand, arguably would have very low maintenance because there was just nothing IN them to break. (My favourite piece on the TIE Fighter was a little pocket pop-up book that went above and beyond in TIE Fighter-style propaganda, couching the lack of shields, landing gear, life support and the fact that visibility was so poor they had to make a window in the back to see out... in hilariously glowing terms, bu underlined that basic idea.) It only existed basically because budgetary reasons. It was cheap (probably for the same reaons!), and that was about all there was to it. (Someone mentioned the Empire's bias against the more advanced fighter stemmed from a fear that advanced fighters might replace capiatl ships in spending - given the performance of the Missile Boat, it was not an unfounded fear!) Hell, they had enough difficultly getting TIE Interceptors and Bombers out. (And to be fair, this is why you could have so many variants of the TIEs, because there was frack all inside 'em to take up space...!) And after the Empire had ordered a couple of kajillion TIE Fighters or something, they were so obiquitous that you'd nearly have to find a use for 'em.



There is, after all, only one fighter LOWER on the totem pole than the TIE Fighter and the Y-Wing... The TYE-Wing (more properly known and the DIE-Wing), which combined the worst spects of both. After which point, you'd probably be safer floating into a dogfight armed with a DL-18 and unfounded optimism...

Man. The guy who designed the TIE must have been swimming in royalties

[TheThan]

I, on the other hand, I have a rather dim view of Y-Wings, having extensively player TIE Fighter and X-Wing Alliance in the day - unless I was flying against them in which case, bring 'em on! Almost painfully easy to out-fly. Even given the plethora of enemies in TIE Fighter, I still recall with great amusement that out of the thousand-and-something kills I made during my proper run-throughthe campaigns... Y-Wing kills accounted for fully (and exactly) 10%.

Granted, those were all A4s - S3s with a turret gunner might have just about been more of a challenge, but still.

Give me assault gunboats anyway of the week. (Missileboats in preference obviously, but that's overkill...)

Well to be fair. Tie bombers are practically sitting ducks to X-wings as well. So I guess it’s a balance thing. the biggest advantage of the Y-wing is the ion cannon’ which allow it to perform in missions that the X-wing cannot.


WRT theThan's earlier remark, I don't think it's quite the same tactics. IF the source is believable, the TIE fighters and interceptors of the Thrawn era are equipped with shields but not hyperdrive. The Hit and Fade occurs by sending in a base ship such as an ISD, which deploys the fighters for a strike and provides fire support for them. Expensive, but there's decades of doctrine and training behind that decision. Possibly Thrawn is going to war with the Imperial Navy he has, not the one he wishes he had ... if he really wants to use small fighters more. I don't see any real indication that he does.


they're not completely identical tactics. He’s still performing hit and fade attacks. He’s using capital ships which cause FAR more damage and terror than fighters do. he's upscaled the basic tactic from fighters to capital ships because those are the hyperdrive equipped craft he has. Plus he is using terror; and star destroyers are quite terrifying. not to mention a capitial ship causes FAR more damage than a fighter does.



There is, after all, only one fighter LOWER on the totem pole than the TIE Fighter and the Y-Wing... The TYE-Wing (more properly known and the DIE-Wing), which combined the worst spects of both. After which point, you'd probably be safer floating into a dogfight armed with a DL-18 and unfounded optimism...

I feel bad for whatever engineer or mechanic thought that one up.


Man. The guy who designed the TIE must have been swimming in royalties

Sienar Fleet systems made a fortune selling those things.

The cool thing about the tie fighter is that you can see an evolution in the design. From the Tie fighter to the tie defender, you can easily see where they all come from and how they developed. You don’t really see that with the rebel craft.

[hamishspence]

I feel bad for whatever engineer or mechanic thought that one up.

Probably a case of - they had the bits, someone wanted cheap ships, and the didn't care that they would have to be bodged together.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ugly

[Jon D]

Rebel ships came from a bunch of sources, from liberated prototypes to Clone Wars surplus. Thwy had to make do with what they could get.

The Imperial TIE on the other had was conceived of a singular purpose, space superiority, and that purpose, as well as their exceptional pilots and insane numbers allowed them to achieve just that.

It wasn't until the Empire started imploding due to the scramble to fill the vacuum left by the Emperor's death and lost the ability to operate as a whole that the Rebellion was able to start taking it apart after all. It was much easier to take out specific elements of the Imperial Navy than to take on the entire machine, especially when the other elements are more concerned with holding their own piece of the galaxy then protect yours.

[pendell]

In xwing alliance and tie fighter there were a lot of worse ships. The Z-95 deathtrap, R-41 starchaser, and the IRD all come to mind. The durability of a tie fighter and the maneuverability of an Xwing.

This is probably why the tie fighter was sold in the first place; shields were wafer thin in the previous generation, so why pay for them?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[TheThan]

In xwing alliance and tie fighter there were a lot of worse ships. The Z-95 deathtrap, R-41 starchaser, and the IRD all come to mind. The durability of a tie fighter and the maneuverability of an Xwing.

This is probably why the tie fighter was sold in the first place; shields were wafer thin in the previous generation, so why pay for them?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I like the older generation of star fighters. They were interesting and are at least quite a bit cooler than the crap (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aggressive_ReConnaissance-170_starfighter) we got in the clone wars.

I mean who wouldn’t like a ship called a Supa fighter (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Supa_Fighter)? or a T-wing interceptor (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/T-wing_interceptor)?


Probably a case of - they had the bits, someone wanted cheap ships, and the didn't care that they would have to be bodged together.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ugly

Yeah but at some point someone had to be cobbling it together, stop and say “this is never going to work”.

[Cikomyr]

Rebel ships came from a bunch of sources, from liberated prototypes to Clone Wars surplus. Thwy had to make do with what they could get.

The Imperial TIE on the other had was conceived of a singular purpose, space superiority, and that purpose, as well as their exceptional pilots and insane numbers allowed them to achieve just that.

It wasn't until the Empire started imploding due to the scramble to fill the vacuum left by the Emperor's death and lost the ability to operate as a whole that the Rebellion was able to start taking it apart after all. It was much easier to take out specific elements of the Imperial Navy than to take on the entire machine, especially when the other elements are more concerned with holding their own piece of the galaxy then protect yours.

The Capital/Fighter dynamics of the Empire was very much a product of its Aristo-Military culture, where political plays within the fleet was the key to advancement. In that context, it makes sense that the Capital Ships were the make-all end-all core of the Fleet's capability. The Fighters were nothing more than a fancy meatshield that gave space and time for the "real" ships to do the job.

If the people flying the meatshield started being relevant to the overall strategy, they might gain glory and influence. And that would be terrible.

The Imperial Fleet is nothing without a single capital ship. This is why TIE squadrons are never deployed in an independant manner.

[Aotrs Commander]

This discussion got me to dig out for the first time in YEARS the other Best Bit of Star Wars... TIE Fighter! Took a little bit of fiddling with the controls as usual, but I got my old collector's edition running (crap graphics, stupendous iMUSE music!)

...

I am VERY out of practise...

[Zolem]

Yeah but at some point someone had to be cobbling it together, stop and say “this is never going to work”.

Then somebody did, and so instead used the oposite parts (TIE core, Y-nacelles ) and found an ugly that could square favorably against X-Wings, if not have the advantage. So the Die-wing was basically "Whoopsies, I did the darn thing backwards, my bad."

[TheThan]

This discussion got me to dig out for the first time in YEARS the other Best Bit of Star Wars... TIE Fighter! Took a little bit of fiddling with the controls as usual, but I got my old collector's edition running (crap graphics, stupendous iMUSE music!)

...

I am VERY out of practise...

I know the feeling, i want to play as well.

I used to use a Microsoft 3D pro joystick back in the day when you could buy joysticks. Nowadays if you can find a joystick it's going to be ergonomic (read right handed only) and therefore not suitable for me. which is problem for me because I'm left handed and a right hand only ergonomic joystick simply doesn't work. I tried adapting and using my right hand... it didn't go over very good. one problem is that it's not USB so it's hard to find something compatible with it. you know, I don't remember what happened to it.

I loove nerding out over star wars starfighters.

[Aotrs Commander]

Then somebody did, and so instead used the oposite parts (TIE core, Y-nacelles ) and found an ugly that could square favorably against X-Wings, if not have the advantage. So the Die-wing was basically "Whoopsies, I did the darn thing backwards, my bad."

You got it backwards: the TIE body/Y-nacelles is the DIE-Wing. The Y-TIE was the Y-Wing hull with TIE engines and panels but yes, otherwise, that was the one that "worked."




I know the feeling, i want to play as well.

I used to use a Microsoft 3D pro joystick back in the day when you could buy joysticks. Nowadays if you can find a joystick it's going to be ergonomic (read right handed only) and therefore not suitable for me. which is problem for me because I'm left handed and a right hand only ergonomic joystick simply doesn't work. I tried adapting and using my right hand... it didn't go over very good. one problem is that it's not USB so it's hard to find something compatible with it. you know, I don't remember what happened to it.

I loove nerding out over star wars starfighters.

Actually, I bought a new joystick, a Thrustmaster 16000M only a month or two ago (Squadron 42 appears to be driving a new wave of flight sims ahead of it) as my old Precison Pro had bust. I haven't used it much, but it IS designed such that you can configure it for left-or-right handedness - basicall,y you can take the pads off the stick and have them left or right and the buttons are identical on both sides. (Actually, I'm not sure if the buttons on the base on the side your handed on are actually usably practicall,y but there you go.)

So there is at least one out there and the 16000M is the £40-50 quid mid-range like Precision slash 3D Pro is/was.

[pendell]

You got it backwards: the TIE body/Y-nacelles is the DIE-Wing. The Y-TIE was the Y-Wing hull with TIE engines and panels but yes, otherwise, that was the one that "worked."





Actually, I bought a new joystick, a Thrustmaster 16000M only a month or two ago (Squadron 42 appears to be driving a new wave of flight sims ahead of it) as my old Precison Pro had bust. I haven't used it much, but it IS designed such that you can configure it for left-or-right handedness - basicall,y you can take the pads off the stick and have them left or right and the buttons are identical on both sides. (Actually, I'm not sure if the buttons on the base on the side your handed on are actually usably practicall,y but there you go.)

So there is at least one out there and the 16000M is the £40-50 quid mid-range like Precision slash 3D Pro is/was.

I wouldn't mind hearing the tale of your adventures, perhaps in another thread. Open Skies and may the Dark Side be with you [r character]!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Philistine]

Why Y-Wings?
My experience in the second game seems to have been much like pendell's: only A-wings ever gave me pause (for me it was their combination of superior speed, which allowed them to engage and disengage at will, with regenerating shields, which allowed them to return to full strength before re-engaging), every other Rebel craft was meat on the table no matter what kind of TIE I was flying. So the preference for Y-Wings doesn't come from flying against them.

No, the first game is the one I need to talk about - after all, I had already racked up a bunch of hours in X-Wing before I ever played TIE Fighter. I remember starting out the campaign, given a Y-Wing, and dreading the appearance of TIE Fighters because they were so much faster and more agile than I was. But I learned to cope, and before long I was in the titular ship... the iconic symbol of the Rebellion... the fabled X-Wing! Huzzah! And it was faster than the Y-Wing, true; and it turned harder, also true. But I was still slower and clumsier than the TIE Fighters I was facing - the performance had improved, but not enough to really make a difference. And there was one other thing, something which until that time I had never considered.

The X-Wing's guns are mounted at the extreme ends of the S-Foils, as far apart from each other - and from the centerline of the ship - as it's physically possible for them to be. They're far enough apart to, for example, cleanly bracket a TIE Fighter at close range, cannon blasts passing it by harmlessly on both sides, hitting with nothing even though I had the target dead-center in my sights. (Yes, I knew about the X-Wing's harmonization distance, at which fire from all four weapons converges; but as far as I was could tell, that actually made things worse.) My gunnery accuracy ratings went from excellent to abysmal between one mission and the next. Later I discovered that the A-Wing and B-Wing also mounted their guns as far away from the centerline as they could (though the A-Wings were small enough that the spread wasn't crippling), and that's when I realized that the Y-Wing's greatest asset isn't its payload, or its durability, or its "close enough to an X-Wing" performance: it's the grouping of weapons near the centerline. The Y-Wing was a freaking sniper, and putting fire on (instead of just around) targets meant completing missions faster, easier, and safer. It didn't take long for the Y-Wing to become my ride of choice; and as I learned more about both the lore of the setting and RL history, I also came to appreciate the Y-Wing's role in the made-up history of the Starfighter Corps.

[TheThan]

Why Y-Wings?
My experience in the second game seems to have been much like pendell's: only A-wings ever gave me pause (for me it was their combination of superior speed, which allowed them to engage and disengage at will, with regenerating shields, which allowed them to return to full strength before re-engaging), every other Rebel craft was meat on the table no matter what kind of TIE I was flying. So the preference for Y-Wings doesn't come from flying against them.

No, the first game is the one I need to talk about - after all, I had already racked up a bunch of hours in X-Wing before I ever played TIE Fighter. I remember starting out the campaign, given a Y-Wing, and dreading the appearance of TIE Fighters because they were so much faster and more agile than I was. But I learned to cope, and before long I was in the titular ship... the iconic symbol of the Rebellion... the fabled X-Wing! Huzzah! And it was faster than the Y-Wing, true; and it turned harder, also true. But I was still slower and clumsier than the TIE Fighters I was facing - the performance had improved, but not enough to really make a difference. And there was one other thing, something which until that time I had never considered.

The X-Wing's guns are mounted at the extreme ends of the S-Foils, as far apart from each other - and from the centerline of the ship - as it's physically possible for them to be. They're far enough apart to, for example, cleanly bracket a TIE Fighter at close range, cannon blasts passing it by harmlessly on both sides, hitting with nothing even though I had the target dead-center in my sights. (Yes, I knew about the X-Wing's harmonization distance, at which fire from all four weapons converges; but as far as I was could tell, that actually made things worse.) My gunnery accuracy ratings went from excellent to abysmal between one mission and the next. Later I discovered that the A-Wing and B-Wing also mounted their guns as far away from the centerline as they could (though the A-Wings were small enough that the spread wasn't crippling), and that's when I realized that the Y-Wing's greatest asset isn't its payload, or its durability, or its "close enough to an X-Wing" performance: it's the grouping of weapons near the centerline. The Y-Wing was a freaking sniper, and putting fire on (instead of just around) targets meant completing missions faster, easier, and safer. It didn't take long for the Y-Wing to become my ride of choice; and as I learned more about both the lore of the setting and RL history, I also came to appreciate the Y-Wing's role in the made-up history of the Starfighter Corps.


True. However I actually learned how to compensate for that weakness in the X-wing. I would twitch the joystick slightly to the left when i fired, which made the two shots coming off my right wing to strike the target (firing on quad fire). it usually worked. the only real drawback is you're hitting things with half power.

if that wasn't possible, i backed off until i could hit it. sometimes letting the tie range out in front of you was a smart plan.

But still your point is valid and not everyone will figure out how to compensate.

[pendell]

If I had to choose one fighter ...

Empire: Obviously the Missile Boat and the TIE defender , in that order. But if I couldn't have either of those I would want the Assault Gunboat. It's a little slow but it has excellent shields, ion cannons, tractor beam mounting [which can be diverted to engines for more speed], and better missile loadout than the Y-wing.

Why not the Tie advanced? Two reasons: 1) No Ion Cannons [my passionate devotion to them should be obvious by now] 2) Weak shields. Battle 7 of TIE Fighter, against the VSD and it's cohorts, ended any affection I might have felt for the TIE advanced. The VSD has dual advanced concussion missile launchers with infinite ammo. IF your shields were fully charged to 200% AND NOT ONE WHIT BELOW THAT, you would survive a single hit with your hull in red condition. With the shields at 199% or below, the advanced missile is an instakill.

The Tie defender and Gunboat are only knocked down to 100% due to an advanced missile. More survivable. I'll take it.

I would not climb into an unshielded ship again save at gunpoint. The problem with an unshielded ship is that any hit has the potential to disable your flight controls or engine, leaving you dead in space. Even trivial targets like the Escort Shuttle or a cargo ferry become dangerous to approach, because a single chance shot can prove fatal. Clearing a minefield goes from being a parade ground exercise that can be accomplished in one's sleep to a nailbiting exercise in terror.

Also, an unshielded ship takes away one of my favorite anti-TIE tactics: RAMMING! Yes! An X-wing with full shields can plow right through a tie fighter and keep on going. There were not a few times when I went for an easy kill, going head to head with a TIE and just kept right on going. Perhaps there was a look of terror on the pilot's face in the split second between realizing I wasn't going to break off and my bow penetrating the cockpit glass, or perhaps I am imagining too much. I imagined my rebel fighter painted with bull's horns on the end and a callsign of "Toro" to signify my love of ramming.

That's another problem with an unshielded craft: Pretty much all our battles start off with the vessels charging into the merge head-to-head. If you're flying a TIE fighter going head-to-head with an X-wing is NOT a survival strategy, even if it's not piloted by a crazy man with horns painted on the sides of the craft's nose. TIEs make it work -- sort of -- in-game by having groups of tie fighters volleying turbo lasers together, but the casualty count is always horrific at battle's end precisely because computer-controlled TIE fighters will charge right at other fighters, or armed freighters, or armed platforms, and be shot to pieces. It takes very close control to keep your wingmates alive, if it is possible at all.

What about the rebel side?

First choice is the B-wing, and second choice is the Y-wing. The same reason in both cases : Ion cannons and more torpedoes than the X-wing.

The X-wing is my third choice, because even though it has no ion cannons it DOES have four cannons ... which means my shields can charge twice as fast, by diverting all cannon energy to the shields.

The A-wing is fast which makes it an incomparable dogfighter. However, speed is of limited utility against missiles and is of no value at all when attacking a capital ship; in such conditions shield power is more important than speed, because you have no choice but to fly right down the turbolasers of the target. I prefer an all-round fighter, and that means a Y-wing or a B-wing.

Be that as it may, the A-wing is still incomparable for specialized tasks: 1) For reconaissance. When no one can catch you, the mission can even get downright boring. 2) For high-speed interception of other spacecraft. 3) For TIE Defenders. You do have the option in X-wing alliance of flying rebel craft against TIE Defenders, and if they are competently flown at all, go A-wing or Go Home.

...

I take it back. The X-wing doesn't have the loadout of the Y or B and it doesn't have the speed of the A-wing. Moreover, it's cannons are awkwardly placed. So it's my second-least-favorite rebel fighter.

My absolute most hated rebel fighter , which shows up in X-wing alliance, is the Z-95. Yes, in the main story you have to fly a few missions disguised as pirates, and that means the Z-95. Everything that's bad about the X-wing, except half the shield strength and half the firepower. No... Just. No. I never want to set virtual foot in its cockpit again.

Of course, in X-wing alliance you get to fly Corellian transports with auto-firing turbolaser turrets, and with one of THOSE you can take on a star destroyer.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Aotrs Commander]

I wouldn't mind hearing the tale of your adventures, perhaps in another thread. Open Skies and may the Dark Side be with you [r character]!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I might even do something like that (ponythread did have tale of my X-Com advantures...)

And I was planning to perhaps start a second new pilot as I'd missed a bleedingly obvious bonus goal on battle 1 mission 3 yesterday...


If I had to choose one fighter ...

Empire: Obviously the Missile Boat and the TIE defender , in that order. But if I couldn't have either of those I would want the Assault Gunboat. It's a little slow but it has excellent shields, ion cannons, tractor beam mounting [which can be diverted to engines for more speed], and better missile loadout than the Y-wing.

Why not the Tie advanced? Two reasons: 1) No Ion Cannons [my passionate devotion to them should be obvious by now] 2) Weak shields.

But... They... have the same shields... Both are 100SBD. The Avenger does have 30 less RU on the hull, true. (In later games, in laughable pro-Rebel propaganda, they drastically reduced the T/A and T/D's stats to make the rebels feel less useless, but in the primary source, T/As had the same shields as Gunboats.)

Otherwise, I am inclinded to agree the GUN have more missiles.

One thing I know I will miss about TIE though, that you got in XWA was the ability to link your laser and ion cannons together, essentially giving craft **** the Y-Wing and GUN quad-fire. (In the XWA environment, where the missile boat lost its SLAM and the T/A and T/D were much more pants, this meant the GUN shone even more.)

[pendell]

But... They... have the same shields... Both are 100SBD.


That may be what the game documentation says , and that may be what starswars.wikia and other sources say, but that's not the way my Collector's edition played. A single ADV missile hit on two green rings in a defender [and , IIRC, the gunboat] would leave me with one green ring. Two green rings in a TIE advanced would leave me with no green rings on the side which hit and a critically damaged fighter -- IF I lived through it at all, which I usually wouldn't. I typically have my lasers at max recharge and shields at zero recharge for greater speed, so shields degrade somewhat.

Note that this is the collector's edition on CD-ROM. You can repeat the experiment yourself, if you wish. What happened in my version of the game is indisputable.

The star wars wiki says that all three ships have the exact same shield strength, but as far as the computer game goes that is manifestly not true. It wouldn't be the first time a game implementation differed from the published sources.

Anyway, I'm not asking you to take my word for it; you can repeat the experiment yourself. Let us know your findings. Unlike most internet discussions, this debate is subject to test. :)

ETA: Just double-checked. In game (http://www.giantbomb.com/star-wars-tie-fighter/3030-19727/), the TIE Defender's shields are twice the strength of the advanced or the gunboat. So my memory is faulty and I believe you are correct; the gunboat's shields are the same power level as the TIE advanced. Nonetheless, I'll still take the gunboat because ion cannons. :).


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[pendell]

Chapter 29 : Rescue?

C3PO receives R2s warning and, with some difficulty, conveys the message to Lando. The request makes no sense either to Lando or to Aves, but Lando goes along with Luke; he trusts Luke. He winds up pulling his gun on Aves to prevent the attack from going off before the troopers reach the archway.

As the troopers reach the archway there is an explosion. In the confusion, Han gets out of the trick cuffs he is wearing, and quickly gets Luke out of cuffs as well.

The stormtroopers take cover in the shelter of the great stone arch.

Lando eats a blaster bolt and Aves leans over him, his blaster ready to kill.

Luke gets his lightsaber from R2 and quickly slashes the stone supports of the archway clean through .

Hundreds of tons of stone come down on the head of the Imperials. Luke just barely clears the fall zone in time. The stormtroopers don't. Mission complete: One Chariot assault vehicle destroyed, as well as an indetermined number of stormtroopers and officers killed.

CHAPTER 30: Rescue aftermath

Karrde is impressed at what Luke has pulled of without the Force.

Karrde allows Solo, Calrissien , and Skywalker to leave. Skywalker's stunt has probably saved the lives of his own people which would have been killed in the attack, so debt of honor rears its head again. As for Solo, his capture was never in the cards; Solo had been a guest.

Karrde orders his people to evacuate the site.

Mara rejoins Karrde's team, and Karrde makes sure to keep her far away from Skywalker.

Han and Karrde settle accounts. Han agrees to get Karrde's Etherway out of impoundment on Abregado-Rae, as agreed. In the meantime, Karrde asks if he can borrow a ship to help evacuate his base. Solo agrees to have a look.

The nearest source of ships is Sluis Van. So Solo, Luke, and Lando travel in the Millenium Falcon to see if they can find a spare ship. Luke's X-wing is still not capable of Hyperdrive, so the Falcon takes it in tow.

Karrde considers hijacking the ship and giving it to the Imperials in order to soothe them, but he realizes that , with the death of the Imperial troops, they are no longer soothable.

Some of the Empire's finest troops have died here today, and the Empire will be satisfied with nothing less than blood in response. Karrde's balancing act is over; whether he knows it yet or not, he's committed to the New Republic.

MEANWHILE...

The Chimaera and it's cohorts are preparing to assault Sluis Van behind the cloaked freighter. Fourteen hours have passed since the last report from Karrde's planet, two hours past the scheduled check in. Stormtroopers don't make that mistake, so they must have been eliminated.

Thrawn assumes that Karrde is responsible, and notes to deal with him a traitor to the Empire -- later. For the moment, he has the Sluis Van attack to conduct.

Tim Zahn notes:



The fifth quality of a good commander; he keeps his priorities straight.


And so the stage is set for the climatic battle of the book! Tune in next time for: The Battle of Sluis Van!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Philistine]

True. However I actually learned how to compensate for that weakness in the X-wing. I would twitch the joystick slightly to the left when i fired, which made the two shots coming off my right wing to strike the target (firing on quad fire). it usually worked. the only real drawback is you're hitting things with half power.

if that wasn't possible, i backed off until i could hit it. sometimes letting the tie range out in front of you was a smart plan.

But still your point is valid and not everyone will figure out how to compensate.

Three things about that. One, if you're giving up on half your shots before you even pull the trigger, you're also giving up on the increased gunpower of the X-Wing - which should be its biggest advantage as a dogfighter. Two, that approach caps your gunnery accuracy at an absolute maximum of 50%. Three, while flying the Y-Wing I didn't need to compensate for its idiotic weapon layout.

So while I did figure out how to compensate - I settled on Fire-Link (2) as a balance between rate of fire and firepower, and my firing passes were pretty wobbly as I constantly adjusted to bring each pair of guns onto the target as they became ready - the fact that I had to do so did nothing to endear the X-Wing to me. IMO, the best thing about the X-Wing was that it wasn't a B-Wing. :smallamused:

[Aotrs Commander]

ETA: Just double-checked. In game (http://www.giantbomb.com/star-wars-tie-fighter/3030-19727/), the TIE Defender's shields are twice the strength of the advanced or the gunboat. So my memory is faulty and I believe you are correct; the gunboat's shields are the same power level as the TIE advanced. Nonetheless, I'll still take the gunboat because ion cannons. :).

Yeah, that sounds about right. I have to generally concur... There are a few instances where I'd prefer an Avenger over a Gunboat (fighting lots of A-Wings - but even then Gunboat+Tractor beam is aguably better), but for general usage, I think the GUN does have the advantage (as I say, especially if you can/could fire-link the lasers and ion together ala XWA.)

(Thrawn was a major player in TIE Fighter, this is still all broadly on Thrawn-related topic...! right...?)

[pendell]

The last summary was in post 222 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18552749&postcount=222). TIE fighters are a digression , not a derailment. Besides, the more active the thread is, the happier I am.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Jon D]

Do we have any numbers of Thrawn's taskforce? I've always had the impression that he was mostly operating onw his own, without any backing from the surviving Imperial elements.

[pendell]

ISTR that at the beginning of Heir he has four star destroyers -- excuse me, six (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Thrawn%27s_fleet). the Chimaera, the Stormhawk, the Judicator, the Inexorable, the Death's Head, and the Nemesis.

That's not many ships to take a galaxy back. Which is why acquiring more starships pronto is so important to him. But what about crews...?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Cikomyr]

I always felt that Thrawn was in command of the entire Remnants at this point...

I loved Myrsk's climactic battle. It was so anticlimactic, and yet brilliant and satisfying.

[TheThan]

Also, an unshielded ship takes away one of my favorite anti-TIE tactics: RAMMING! Yes! An X-wing with full shields can plow right through a tie fighter and keep on going. There were not a few times when I went for an easy kill, going head to head with a TIE and just kept right on going. Perhaps there was a look of terror on the pilot's face in the split second between realizing I wasn't going to break off and my bow penetrating the cockpit glass, or perhaps I am imagining too much. I imagined my rebel fighter painted with bull's horns on the end and a callsign of "Toro" to signify my love of ramming.


This genuinely made me erupt in laughter. Well done sir. (I think we’ve all rammed at least one tie in our time.)


Three things about that. One, if you're giving up on half your shots before you even pull the trigger, you're also giving up on the increased gunpower of the X-Wing - which should be its biggest advantage as a dogfighter. Two, that approach caps your gunnery accuracy at an absolute maximum of 50%. Three, while flying the Y-Wing I didn't need to compensate for its idiotic weapon layout.

So while I did figure out how to compensate - I settled on Fire-Link (2) as a balance between rate of fire and firepower, and my firing passes were pretty wobbly as I constantly adjusted to bring each pair of guns onto the target as they became ready - the fact that I had to do so did nothing to endear the X-Wing to me. IMO, the best thing about the X-Wing was that it wasn't a B-Wing. :smallamused:

Yes, there are drawbacks to doing what I was doing. It works, but not as well as having better mounted guns like on the Y-wing.


ISTR that at the beginning of Heir he has four star destroyers -- excuse me, six (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Thrawn%27s_fleet). the Chimaera, the Stormhawk, the Judicator, the Inexorable, the Death's Head, and the Nemesis.

That's not many ships to take a galaxy back. Which is why acquiring more starships pronto is so important to him. But what about crews...?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

He’s got a fair number of smaller capital ships as well as at least one Interdictor class cruiser. However I don’t know the exact numbers.

[Yora]

ISTR that at the beginning of Heir he has four star destroyers -- excuse me, six (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Thrawn%27s_fleet). the Chimaera, the Stormhawk, the Judicator, the Inexorable, the Death's Head, and the Nemesis.

That's not many ships to take a galaxy back. Which is why acquiring more starships pronto is so important to him. But what about crews...?
I remember quite a number of conversations earlier in the book about
slave circuits. Putting ships in remote control. I am sure it will become a critical element in the Sluis Van opperation.

Even though I think I read all three books only once about 15 years ago, I somehow did remember very well almost all the scenes that have happened so far. But apart from three of Thrawns brilliant plans to win battles, I pretty much can't remember anything from here on. I don't even remember what exactly happens at Sluis Van, but what we've seen so far of Thrawn and with the Republic not having been aware of his existance yet, I am predicting an incredible success on his side. And both the Millenium Falcon and Wedges Rogue Squadron are right now going to just that place. What a remarkable coincidence? I am sensing a major space battle ahead.
Though I believe pendell acidentally let slip a minor spoiler some posts back:
There hasn't been any mention of using the mole miners at Sluis Van yet.
Given that they want to capture ships, I think it becomes obvious how they are going to be used.

One thing I noticed is that Luke and Leia are both dealing with very similar situations. Both Mara and the Noghri are carrying out orders that conflict with their own ideals, out of loyalty to terrible masters who are both long dead.
And I also have to admit that I think Luke feels a bit too perfect to me as a character. Not precisely a fault of the book, I think it's all perfectly in character for how he has been in Return of the Jedi. But what works for a two hour movie might not necessarily be a great character for dozens of novels. His patience and kindness is without limits and while he has some mandatory angsting when he is just by himself, he always is in perfect control of his emotions. He is the ideal Jedi, though I think that he's so good at it that he is more like a walking Ideal of a Jedi, which makes him a lot less interesting as a character.


I always felt that Thrawn was in command of the entire Remnants at this point...

I loved Myrsk's climactic battle. It was so anticlimactic, and yet brilliant and satisfying.
Given that Heir to the Empire is pretty much the first "sequel novel", unless I am mistaken, Zahn was obviously establishing new standards as he felt like, but I think he already had the basic idea of the Imperial Remnant pretty well laid out. Other writers expanded on it so that after the death of the Emperor there was a central "loyalist" faction that kept the empire running mostly as it was, as a political state. But in addition to that, there pretty soon were many admirals and moffs who bacame independent warlords. Thrawn clearly falls into the later type. These seem to have very little interest in politics and local administration and apparently simply run a protection racket with lots of planets that are technically still part of the Empire. The warlords and their fleets get money, supplies, and new weapons from those planets and in turn defend them from being conquered by the New Republic. Otherwise the locals govern themselves.
From what we've seen of Thrawn so far, he doesn't even seem to have any base camp and seems more nomadic. Being on a big tour through the systems that still call themselves part of the Empire and somehow collecting resources from them.


This discussion got me to dig out for the first time in YEARS the other Best Bit of Star Wars... TIE Fighter! Took a little bit of fiddling with the controls as usual, but I got my old collector's edition running (crap graphics, stupendous iMUSE music!)
Link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIINvHjqtZ0#t=1s) :smallbiggrin:

[Aotrs Commander]

pendell - this is almost entirely all your fault (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?388996-Bleakbane-%28Re-%29Plays-TIE-Fighter!-For-the-glory-of-the-Empire-destroy-everything!)... whatever happens to everyone's sanity, it is on your head...!

[pendell]

Ha! I'm looking forward to it. :)

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[TheThan]

pendell - this is almost entirely all your fault (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?388996-Bleakbane-%28Re-%29Plays-TIE-Fighter!-For-the-glory-of-the-Empire-destroy-everything!)... whatever happens to everyone's sanity, it is on your head...!

*reads intently.

[nyjastul69]

It's been a very enjoyable book thus far for me. Other than a coupla, this is done for plot things, nothing has annoyed me much, except for Mara Jade's character. I can't put my finger on it, exactly and I'm sure I can't fully put it into words, but I'll try. She loathes Luke with a passion for having destroyed her world. I get that. Has she ever tried to seek out and destroy him in the 5 years since the death of the emperor? It doesn't seem so thus far. She was the Emperor's Hand. She must have a valuable skill set that she could use to find high level employment in various fields. Yeah, she lost her high level position. It's not like she is the only person that's ever been forced out of a high level position. I also understand her type of loyalty. She works for Kardde and won't cross him, period. Still, something is rubbing me the wrong way about her characterization.

I'm pretty sure she plays a significant role in the EU and that Zahn will further explore her character in the up coming novels. I'm hoping that my issues with her characterization will be modified by the end of the trilogy. I actually assume they will, but for now she is kinda... meh.

ETA: The slight digression on the types of starcrafts employed by each side is impressively geeky. Good job. I'm enjoying that as well. Happy reading all.

[McStabbington]

I was a fan of the X-Wing myself, though I always kept my fire to single-shot. And kept my distance back far enough that it was never really a huge problem. But now that you do mention it, I did find the centerline fire of a TIE fighter and Y-wing to be much more intuitive. It wasn't terrible for the X-wings, but man did I really not like dogfighting in a B-wing.

I've actually been really impressed with how the books hold up over the years, and I'm especially impressed by how legitimately well-drawn Thrawn is as a threat. Most of the time, when you deal with a "military genius", what you are really dealing with is a person with an elaborate, twenty-seven step plan for total domination with multiple redundancies that only gets foiled by the plot armor of the main characters at step 26.

Now this is wrong for many reasons, but the most basic reason is that this is not how strategy works. Admittedly, I'm working off of what I've learned from Marines and Army officers who had some strategic training, but every time I've done so, they've always emphasized simplicity: what do we have, what do we want, and how can we use what we have to get what we want in the way that most damages our opponents while hurting us the least?

Thrawn strikes me as very much in the latter vein. Sure, he has a grand strategy, and he's been very carefully setting up the Republic for the Sluis Van operation, but every step of the way has reasoned out and very simple. It's only looking back that you can look at each step and say "Oh, that was so well-done." If Vader was a great villain precisely because he was just such a relentless juggernaut, Thrawn is a great villain because he does exactly the opposite, neatly dancing you right beneath the piano he's hung up.

[TheThan]

Oh and we did get a list of ships Thrawn has. At least what he’s using for his attack on Sluis Van.

6 star destroyers (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_I-class_Star_Destroyer), counting the Chimera. They’re probably a mix of MK I and MK II star destroyers.

12 strike class medium cruisers (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Strike-class_Medium_Cruiser)

22 karrack class light cruisers (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Carrack-class)

And at least 30 squadrons of ties

We also know he has at least one Interdictor cruiser (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Immobilizer_418_cruiser).

As to what else he has in his fleet, only time will tell. However I doubt we’ll get a perfectly exact count.

[Cikomyr]

I really don't see why we should assume that Thrawn is using his entire fleet to proceed with this raid. Using all of your forces in a single engagement is usually poor leadership and tactical sense; neither of which characterize Thrawn.

The Empire militaro/governor relationship is usually organized as such: Systems are ruled by governors, sectors are ruled by Moffs. They have authority over the local Fleet and military, but those are still subordinate to the Imperial Fleet if needed. The Moffs answer to the Supreme Commander of the Imperial Forces (for a while, it was merely the local dominant Warlord, until Alpha Bitch Daala solved the issue and united them under a single leader).

The Fleet does not have authority over Imperial systems. the Imperial Fleet does not directly administrate civilian government; there is a chain of command in place, with only the Supreme Commander being involved.

the fact that Thrawn does not have a center of government, or the fact that he does not administrate any world does not mean he is not in charge of the entire Empire. the Empire is a state extremely decentralized in term of its administration but is extremely centralized in term of authority; which lead to the plethora of warlords when that central authority was wiped out.

[Jon D]

Oh and we did get a list of ships Thrawn has. At least what he’s using for his attack on Sluis Van.

6 star destroyers (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_I-class_Star_Destroyer), counting the Chimera. They’re probably a mix of MK I and MK II star destroyers.

12 strike class medium cruisers (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Strike-class_Medium_Cruiser)

22 karrack class light cruisers (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Carrack-class)

And at least 30 squadrons of ties

We also know he has at least one Interdictor cruiser (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Immobilizer_418_cruiser).

As to what else he has in his fleet, only time will tell. However I doubt we’ll get a perfectly exact count.

Imagine what he could have done with a full Sector Fleet...

[Cikomyr]

Imagine what he could have done with a full Sector Fleet...

He would have left multiple systems defenseless and not achieved anything more than what he actually did at the Sluis Van Yards?

[TheThan]

I really don't see why we should assume that Thrawn is using his entire fleet to proceed with this raid.

I’m not. I listed the ships that we know he has. He’s using 40 capital ships for his attack on Sluis Van. That’s what he believes he needs to pull off his raid. We also know he has at least one Interdictor cruiser that is not participating in the attack.

we don't know what his other resources entail.


He would have left multiple systems defenseless and not achieved anything more than what he actually did at the Sluis Van Yards?

He would have access to more resources, which would allow him to expand his operations and do more. Sluis van is just one mission that he’s allocated an appropriate amount of resources to in order to complete it.

[Yora]

Thrawn strikes me as very much in the latter vein. Sure, he has a grand strategy, and he's been very carefully setting up the Republic for the Sluis Van operation, but every step of the way has reasoned out and very simple. It's only looking back that you can look at each step and say "Oh, that was so well-done." If Vader was a great villain precisely because he was just such a relentless juggernaut, Thrawn is a great villain because he does exactly the opposite, neatly dancing you right beneath the piano he's hung up.
I think Thrawn is pretty explicitly set up as the Anti-Vader. In the first chapters Palaeon has a few lines in which he thinks that Vader was terrible as a military commander. And Thrawn even has a white uniform!

[Cikomyr]

He would have access to more resources, which would allow him to expand his operations and do more. Sluis van is just one mission that he’s allocated an appropriate amount of resources to in order to complete it.

Unless you can assume that Thrawn HAS access to the entirety of the Empire's ressources at that time (or almost), and he only uses what he feels is necessary and what he can afford to spare.

[pendell]

As towards numbers and what Thrawn accomplished ... we'll find out in

Chapter 31: The Battle for Sluis Van!

The action opens on the Escort Frigate Larkhess, Captain Afyon commanding. He is indulging in inter-service rivalry with the commander of his X-wing complement for this run, one Wedge Antilles. Doubtless the insinuation that A are a bunch of nancyboys while B does all the real work has parallels in the Athenian navy during Themistocle's time, when Greek rowers and hoplites exchanged similar insults.

To take his mind off the conversation he really doesn't want to hand, Antilles scans the fleet traffic ...

... and notices an A-class freighter notable for having no escort at all, unlike pretty much everything else in the yards. A quick scan also reveals an empty cargo.

An unescorted cargo ship with empty holds. It's so out of the ordinary it sets Antilles' intuition ringing. Nothing force-sensitive about it; it's just that the freighter is failing the "What's wrong with this picture" test.

He mentions his concern to Captain Afyon, who taps into the net and queries the freighter to find it was jumped by pirates and lost its cargo. It's still not enough to soothe Antilles, so he orders Rogue Squadron to scramble, just in case.

And so the Rogues are not completely unprepared when the freighter blows up.

Out of the wreckage swarms its true cargo, disguised by Thrawn's cloaking device. The device hadn't been intended for the freighter itself, but for its cargo of at least forty tie fighters and fifty-one truncated cones ...

... Lando's mole miners ...

which are now in the interior of the shipyard and wreaking havoc.

Nearly simultaneously, an incursion occurs on the outer system perimeter: At least 5 Star Destroyers and 20 smaller ships.

This is considerably smaller than TheThanh's estimate, though it must be noted this is a preliminary sensor scan, not an order of battle written down by Thrawn. Perception may differ considerably from 'ground truth'.

A lone Corellian freighter with an X-wing in tow stumbles into this mess. Thrawn takes note of it and informs his commanders Skywalker is on the battlefield. Karrde will have a great deal to answer for.

Meanwhile, the 51 mole miners target the largest ships they can find and disgorge their cargo ; approximately 4 stormtroopers each to act as a boarding party while some also carry a spacetrooper, a stormtrooper in zero-g armor with miniature proton torpedo launchers, who will cover the miner from the outside.

51 mole miners target the largest ships in the yard. 43 of them latch on and use their mining devices to bore through the hatches, allowing the stormtroopers easy access to the ships which, with skeleton crews, are nearly defenseless.

The other eight have been destroyed, some by the Falcon and Rogue squadron as Han recognizes the Mole Miners and, after one of the boarded Star Cruisers fires on Wedge, Luke puts two and two together and realizes just what Thrawn has in mind. The miners are now a priority target.

One of the spacetroopers survives the destruction of his parent craft. Thrawn orders him retrieved so he can fight in a future battle; he will not waste material here. As soon as the plan is complete, they will be withdrawing. They are here to gain ships, not lose them ... or their skilled personnel.

Thrawn values the lives of his subordinates and will not spend them unnecessarily, a vital skill in a good commander.

Meanwhile, the Chimaera is heavily engaged with Republic capital ships and the starboard shield goes down. Thrawn orders concentrated fire on a Republic Assault Frigate, vaporizing every weapon implacement on one side. Next, tractor beams are used to drag in the frigate and use it as an impromptu shield until the deflectors can be brought back up. Pelleon notes a 'marked improvement' in the tractor beam team's efficiency. Seemingly Thrawn's motivational talk had its effect on Lieutenant Pieterson....

At any rate, 43 mole miners latch onto 39 Star Cruisers and other capital ships. 39 ships get under way and vector towards the perimeter and the Imperial fleet. A massive force of capital ships is about to change flags, giving Thrawn the ships he needs for the next phase of his plan.

Luke and the heroes have figured out this plan and they are desperately trying to either destroy the miners or disable the ships, but it is no go; a capital ship is too well armored to be stopped merely by a few fighters and a tramp freighter.

Becoming desperate, Han begins thinking of a remote control device which could infiltrate the ships -- and then it hits him. These are [i]Lando's[i] mole miners, and this means there are slave circuits aboard those ships.

Lando sees it too. He is brought up to the Falcon's bridge and enters his command codes. Han tells him to activate all the mole miner's drives, in the hope that, as close to the bridge as they are, that they will break something.

43 mole miners fire their drives. 43 capital ships have various critical systems ruptured. 43 ships cease their accelaration and are dead in space.

REAL-LIFE PHYSICS NOTE: Objects in space do not crawl to a halt when they stop their burn, so I assume the ships had not yet developed any substantial velocity; they WOULD eventually reach the outer system, but at their current velocity it would take months or years to get there; Thrawn doesn't have anywhere close to that amount of time. Presumably Republic reinforcements are already en route. The plan has failed.

Thrawn instructs Pelleon to recover all fighters and personnel he can, and the fleet will withdraw.

Pelleon is surprised. Withdraw...?

Thrawn responds.



You were expecting, perhaps, that I would order an all-out attack ? That I would seek to cover our defeat in a frenzy of futile and false heroics?

...

We haven't been defeated, Captain. Merely slowed down a bit. We have Wayland , and we have the treasures of the Emperor's Storehouse. Sluis Van was to be merely a preliminary to the campaign, not the campaign itself. As long as we have Mount Tantiss, our ultimate victory is still assured.

...

We've lost this particular prize , Captain. But that's all we've lost. I will not waste ships and men trying to change that which cannot be changed. There will be many more opportunities to obtain the ships we need. Carry out your orders.



Timothy Zahn comments:



The sixth quality of a good leader; he doesn't waste his troops, but does what he can to get them to safety once their mission is complete or has been rendered impossible by the circumstances of the battle.

...

The final quality of a good commander; a willingness to retreat when the circumstances of battle make the objective no longer attainable. Note that, at the same time, he's maintaining the "glass half full" attitude vital to keeping up his troops morale.



The US Army has, as part of its Core Values (http://www.army.mil/values/soldiers.html), "I will never accept defeat".

That is not what Thrawn is doing, IMO. He is not giving up the battle against the New Republic as hopeless; he still has plenty of "can do" spirit. But what "not accepting defeat" means in this instance is to save what forces he can and try again with another plan later, it does NOT mean throwing ships and men away. "Not accepting defeat" cannot be an excuse for wasting men simply to salvage one's own pride and reputation. Because that's another core value, implied by "I will never leave a fallen comrade" -- the American armed services value the lives of their people, possibly more than any armed force in history ever has. The "killer arithmetic" of our civil war, which essentially meant burying the South under bodies , is evidently a relic of another century.

A weakness , perhaps? Maybe. I personally think it is our greatest strength; the knowledge that men are there for each other and will never abandon each other; that bond of trust enables men to stay in battle and accomplish things which are impossible for a force whose men cannot trust each other or their officers. The latter is incredibly brittle, held together by harsh discipline which can and must evaporate under battlefield conditions, and when this happens a force disintegrates into a panicked mob.

Chapter 32 ; battles end.

Thrawn is unable to rescue all of the spacetroopers. Either the creedo of not leaving comrades behind is not an Imperial value [unlikely, we've already established Thrawn values his people] or this creed does not require the sacrifice of an entire task force to save the lives of six men. At any rate, these troops, fanatical as elite units often are, spread out into the shipyard and wreak all kinds of havoc, the last one blowing up himself and crippling a corvette in the process.

The "victory" , which has crippled 39 capital ships for several months at least, is not one to give anyone laurels. If anything, there is concern that Fey'la will use this "victory" as pretext to gain even more power for himself.

Just at this moment a call comes in from Coruscant; Leia reports that Admiral Ackbar is under arrest, charged with treason. Our heroes prepare to return to Coruscant to deal with Fey'las political machinations , and possibly, prevent a second civil war within the Republic that they do not need when facing Thrawn.

TO BE CONTINUED ... In Dark Force Rising!


.....


Y'know what? I think Sluis Van qualifies as an Imperial victory. For the cost of a company of storm troopers and 51 commandeered craft they thoroughly wrecked at least 39 Republic capital ships , not to mention a lot of other damage to the shipyards. Granted, they failed in their primary objective of capturing the ships, but even so the damage tally is so lopsided I consider it no more of a defeat for the Empire than Pearl Harbor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor) was for the Imperial Japanese Navy.

As for Ackbar, the Themistocles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themistocles#Fall_and_exile) parallel continues to hold. Themistocles was an admiral who saved his city from an Empire, and for this was rewarded with lifelong exile; such is the gratitude of democratic politicians. Counselor Feyla's archetype goes back at least to the Golden Age of Greece.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Cikomyr]

Well, in some measures, it is Ackbar's fault that they have lost these ships. But I do not understand why it should be considered to be anything more than a minor blow.

I mean, think about it and look past the numbers. He had a very large number of capital ships, some of them MonCalamari Cruisers (the flagships of the Republic) acting as Merchantmen. They had barely any skeleton crew, which were overwhelmed by, literally, a handful of Stormtroopers. Which means 2 things:

- The Republic had spare ships available
- The Republic did not had the crew or the ressource to have them at battle-readiness.

These ships were.. for lack of better term, spare-able. The Republic must have massive manpower shortage if it cannot afford to crew battle-ready ships.

[pendell]

- The Republic had spare ships available
- The Republic did not had the crew or the ressource to have them at battle-readiness.


I disagree; it wasn't that the Republic didn't have crews or resources , it was that they needed merchant hulls more. Ackbar decided to use warships as merchants, and the result was very nearly the loss of all those ships and a sudden infusion of capital ships on the Empire's side -- enough to turn the tide of the war.

That was a critical error. While I would not go so far as to charge Admiral Ackbar with treason on its account, it was definitely a questionable judgement call, a blunder. In so doing Ackbar has forged a sword for Fey'la to slay him with.

I'll leave the dispute over numbers to other venues; that was a major part of the Karen Traviss arguments. Fifty cruisers is a trivial number in a galaxy which contains trillions of worlds and quintillions of citizens. Realistically, even a single solar system could probably build that many ships. Same with the Republic Military of the prequels consisting of Three million clones (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Karen_Traviss#Controversies). The US fielded twice that many soldiers in 1945, and we only possessed a fraction of the total manpower of a single planet.

Traviss, Zahn, and others have all put a lot of work into rationalizing or disputing these numbers. I don't care anymore. This is story telling, not science, and the numbers which would actually work for a galaxy-wide Empire are simply too large for effective storytelling. Intuitively, humans can imagine a few dozen or a few hundred of something. But when you start talking quadrillions or quintillions the number is so large to be meaningless.

Star Wars is space opera, not science fiction; it's a stage for heroic deeds and heroic actions. That means a stage where a dozen or a hundred men can make a difference. So everything in the GFFA is scaled down to human-scale, far below what would be plausible in hard science fiction.

Because of this, I'm willing to accept that fifty star cruisers can turn the tide of a galactic war for the sake of the story even though that is, frankly, ridiculous. We've already got plenty of ridiculous things in Star Wars [manned fighters, ships behaving as if they were in atmosphere, artificial gravity, light swords] and I'm not going to let this be my breaking point :).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Yora]

Well, that was awfully convenient that Lando happened to arrive in the system just minutes before the imperial fleet. He's probably the only person in the galaxy who knows the override codes who is not permanently on Nkllon. And Thrawns technicians didn't bother to change them. Of course, the chance that anyone who knows the codes would ever come anywhere near the miners again was incredibly low, but that still should be standard procedure when getting equipment from external sources. Especially captured enemy vehicles.

I think there also was a mistake just a chapter or two before. Why would the frighter have been unble to communicate with the fleet if only the cargo hold was cloaked? It was able to communicate with traffic control. It would make sense to not call the fleet because that signal could have been intercepted, but that's not what Thrawn and Palaeon had been talking about.

[Gnoman]

I assume you're referring to this passage here:


Pellaeon nodded at the ship. "I don't like sending them into enemy territory without any communications."
"We don't have much choice in the matter," Thrawn reminded him dryly. "That's how a cloaking shield works—nothing gets out, nothing gets in." He cocked an eyebrow. "Assuming, of course, that it works at all," he added pointedly.
"Yes, sir. But..."
"But what, Captain?"
Pellaeon braced himself and took the plunge. "It seems to me, Admiral, that this is the sort of operation we ought to use C'baoth on."
Thrawn's gaze hardened, just a bit. "C'baoth?"
"Yes, sir. He could give us communications with—"
"We don't need communications, Captain," Thrawn cut him off. "Careful timing will be adequate for our purposes."
"I disagree, Admiral. Under normal circumstances, yes, careful timing would get them into position. But there's no way to anticipate how long it'll take to get clearance from Sluis Control."
"On the contrary," Thrawn countered coolly. "I've studied the Sluissi very carefully. I can anticipate exactly how long it will take them to clear the freighter."
Pellaeon gritted his teeth. "If the controllers were all Sluissi, perhaps. But with the Rebellion funneling so much of their own material through the Sluis Van system, they're bound to have some of their own people in Control, as well."
"It's of no consequence," Thrawn told him. "The Sluissi will be in charge. Their timing will determine events."

In this case, I think Thrawn's use of the phrase "That's how a cloaking shield works" is meant as much metaphorically as it is literally. Any signal from the Trojan Horse freighter would doom the operation, so the camouflage points in both directions. It's also, of course, a bit of misdirection to hide the plan from the reader.

[pendell]

Well, that was awfully convenient that Lando happened to arrive in the system just minutes before the imperial fleet. He's probably the only person in the galaxy who knows the override codes who is not permanently on Nkllon. And Thrawns technicians didn't bother to change them. Of course, the chance that anyone who knows the codes would ever come anywhere near the miners again was incredibly low, but that still should be standard procedure when getting equipment from external sources. Especially captured enemy vehicles.


Agreed; this is a blunder on Thrawn's part and it is a pretty basic error; the command codes of any captured ship are to be changed forthwith. I imagine this is standard procedure in any navy in the GFFA. It must have been shirked because of Thrawn's immense rush to kick off this operation. Thus it is his responsibility; the failure of the mission lies on his shoulders alone.

This is why, again , Sherlock Holmes rarely works in real life. You simply cannot foresee all possible contingencies; therefore all plans must be as simple as possible, with as few moving parts as possible, so that friction does not kill us. Mcstabbington's observation above -- devious plans which come together is not how real strategy works -- is absolutely correct, in my view.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Seerow]

Well, that was awfully convenient that Lando happened to arrive in the system just minutes before the imperial fleet. He's probably the only person in the galaxy who knows the override codes who is not permanently on Nkllon. And Thrawns technicians didn't bother to change them. Of course, the chance that anyone who knows the codes would ever come anywhere near the miners again was incredibly low, but that still should be standard procedure when getting equipment from external sources. Especially captured enemy vehicles.

I think there also was a mistake just a chapter or two before. Why would the frighter have been unble to communicate with the fleet if only the cargo hold was cloaked? It was able to communicate with traffic control. It would make sense to not call the fleet because that signal could have been intercepted, but that's not what Thrawn and Palaeon had been talking about.

Honestly I'm kind of confused by the whole cloaking thing as well. My interpretation of it was that the cloaking doesn't actually make the ship invisible, it just covers up energy signatures and such (making it effectively invisible to typical scanners, which will be used far more often that actual eye sight for space vehicles anyway). That all fits, the line from Thrawn about nothing getting in or out even fits with it (can't communicate while the cloaking field is up, but nobody can see what's going on with the ship either)... but as you point out how did the ship transmit anything to the ship yards? If they are able to make a special exception to broadcast something through the cloaking device, then it should also work to allow coordination with the fleet. If they can't, how did the shipyards get any info at all?





Anyway, ignoring that quibble, I was actually much happier with this book overall than I anticipated. I remember being seriously annoyed at the trilogy as a whole by the time I finished it, and now I'm not sure if it just failed to live up to its hype, or if things get worse from here. Thrawn has made some really big ass-pull assumptions that just happened to be 100% correct a number of times already, which is something that generally annoys me, but I can live with. My biggest issue is how big of a deal everyone makes about Thrawn being a Grand Admiral. "Oh my god they have a Grand Admiral in charge, no wonder they've been flying circles around the republic!". There were 14 Grand Admirals in the Empire to start with (I think. At the very least it was a number greater than 2), and Thrawn is the only one left.

Grand Admirals in general obviously can't all be as super-awesome as Thrawn, or the Republic never would have had a chance to win, despite the effects of the Emperor's Death and battle meditation ending. So why all the hype about them? If people had actually heard of Thrawn himself and were surprised to find out he wasn't dead and suddenly scared, I'd find it more believable. But I find it really hard to buy into all of the republic people getting weirded out by the existence of a Grand Admiral, despite already having taken down a number of them. And this is one of the things I suspect becomes a bigger focal point in the next couple of books as that news spreads.

[pendell]

I suspect the psychological impact of a grand admiral is out of all proportion to their tactical and strategic impact on the battle.

Especially on civilians who have no training in response to these kind of conditions.

I mentioned Pearl Harbor earlier. During that phase of the war, the Japanese sailed some submarines to California and lobbed a few shells into Los Angeles from their deck guns; the damage was trivial.

Nonetheless, it so panicked the civilian leadership that every American of Japanese ancestry on the pacific coast was interned.

Civilians over-react to threats and overstate the potential danger with grim regularity; i could bring up more current examples but that would get this thread locked down in a hurry.

At any rate, you'll notice it's primarily the civilian leadership which is going out of its mind with fear; it seems to me that the reputation of a Grand Admiral is a greater asset to the Empire than the Grand Admiral himself.


This will become a significant plot point in the succeeding duology.


Respectfully,

Brian P.