My economy hurts...

[atemu1234]

I'm D&D, gold pieces are fairly universal (not the pieces themselves, but the system they are a part of). Unfortunately, they have very little inherent value to them, only ascribed, symbolic value. So who made this system of currency in-game? I know that the question has no real answer, but I'd like to have one in-game, so any good suggestions?

[ace rooster]

I'm D&D, gold pieces are fairly universal (not the pieces themselves, but the system they are a part of). Unfortunately, they have very little inherent value to them, only ascribed, symbolic value. So who made this system of currency in-game? I know that the question has no real answer, but I'd like to have one in-game, so any good suggestions?

Actually they have huge inherent value. They are used in crafting magic items.

[MilesTiden]

In game? I would say dwarves or another mining race would be a good fit, depending on how you want it. Taking a leaf out of Tales of Maj'Eyal's book, Dwarves have control over many rich mining spots, so of course they would push for a resources they, and only they, can control the influx of. Of course, there are many ways to go about it, but using this explanation is one I'm fond of.

Or, you could go really meta, and say that monsters and dragons hoard gold, so that's how it got its value. Having gold meant that you had slain some sort of terrible beast, so they gave you goods in exchange for taking a bit of credit, and the modern practice of using gold pieces as currency is merely a holdover from that time. :smalltongue:

[Threadnaught]

An answer for Eberron. The Dragons being the first mortal race hoarded shinies and traded stuff with others in exchange for more shinies. The "lesser" races saw that the Dragons bought stuff in exchange for useless coins and adopted this cultural quirk for themselves, thus Eberron has capitalism.

[PersonMan]

It depends on the setting.

You could say that large numbers of adventurers and other powerful people decided, hundreds of years ago, that there should be a simple system of coinage to ease international trade and, more importantly, keep them from constantly losing money as they traveled between countries. Given the massive power and carrot/stick techniques a gathering of mid and high level Wizards, Clerics, Fighters and such had, they easily convinced enough rulers that their system covered much of the known world at its founding. Since then, the rule has been 'join or watch your trade wither'.

By now, everyone uses the system.

---

Or you could say that a guild of powerful mages decided to set up a universal measurement for components - rather than calculating pinches, ounces, grams and similar, they boiled everything down to a specific value in universal currency. This quickly spread, as mages (this is including all casters) often have quite a bit of economic power and everyone wanted to be ahead of the pack in the race to accept their new currency (and therefore get their business). By now, the guild may be long gone, or it may still be around, regulating prices and thereby keeping the system stable so that a new diamond mind doesn't send the entire system to its knees.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Actually they have huge inherent value. They are used in crafting magic items.
Did you mean for this to be blue text? Because:
Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp
Is generally taken to mean X gp worth of bear anuses and illithid brains or if you're boring powdered gems. The question is why people trade stuff that can make magic items for gold. In an established economy your confidence that others will trade you things for that gold serves, but it had to start somehow.

My personal guess would be that the first standard coinage was gems; they're compact, non-perishable, and have inherent value as spell/item components. Precious metals were a by product of mining gems and were a suitably scarce item to use for smaller transactions and "making change". Eventually the lower levels of the economy began using coins over barter and the massive number of gp trades eventually made gp the standard. This suited everyone better because it's easier.

Spell components also explain the uniformity of a lot of gem prices. Lots of spells call fo 100gp pearls and because of this there's no such thing as a 90 or 110gp pearl. There are certain sandards a pearl needs to meet to qualify for those spells; a slightly nicer pearl is only worth 100gp, because it's going to be used for the same thing while a slightly lower quality pearl can only be used for jewlery or turned into pearl dust. Same with onyx you have enough for a 8HD undead or you have enough for a 9HD undead so there are only 200gp and 225 gp gems and no gems worth 215gp.

In some cases you probably could cut away some material to get the gem with a nice round value and some powder or shards worth a few gold, but this would require too much skill for the common merchant or mage to be botherered and it could be assumed that this allows a profession:gemcutting to function.

[Cruiser1]

I'm D&D, gold pieces are fairly universal (not the pieces themselves, but the system they are a part of). Unfortunately, they have very little inherent value to them, only ascribed, symbolic value. So who made this system of currency in-game? I know that the question has no real answer, but I'd like to have one in-game, so any good suggestions?
Gold coins (and silver/copper coins to a lesser extent) have value in D&D worlds, for the same reason they have value in real life. Gold is rare and not easy to acquire on your own, so not many people have it. Gold is desirable, in that it can be used to produce pretty jewelry, so it's easy to see it has value. Gold is easily transportable, so it's easy to carry around and offer in exchange for other things, to have a currency based economy.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually, there was a period in antiquity where the near universal value of gold (inherent only in its rarity, the stuff was useless until electronics became a thing) made for a nearly universal currency for high end traders. The standardization of silver and copper is a bit more of a stretch but D&D traders have a -lot- more power since they trade in magic items; gold made directly into power.

There's also the matter of gods of commerce being a thing. Waukeen* may have decreed this system amongst her church and the rest of faerun* just adapted for convenience.

*substitute your deity and continent/world of choice.

[Fouredged Sword]

There is literally a god of commerce and money. I think whatever he says goes works for money. He up and states "All prices for X are Y pieces of gold,", then that is the value of X. Divine fiat is the simplest solution to most of the 3.5 valuation. Otherwise, just how many bear anuses do you really NEED to make that belt of constitution? If their value in GP isn't fixed by some outside force, what measuring stick is used to determine their value when going to craft something?

[Kelb_Panthera]

There is literally a god of commerce and money. I think whatever he says goes works for money. He up and states "All prices for X are Y pieces of gold,", then that is the value of X. Divine fiat is the simplest solution to most of the 3.5 valuation. Otherwise, just how many bear anuses do you really NEED to make that belt of constitution? If their value in GP isn't fixed by some outside force, what measuring stick is used to determine their value when going to craft something?

It is important to remember that the game's designers deliberately chose to oversimplify the game's economic system. Tracking economy is a serious pain and, in most cases, utterly unnecessary. It can be very interesting if you and your players are into that sort of thing but most groups very much appreciate the simplification even if they don't know it.

That said, near as I can tell they tried to simulate pre-renaissance, temperate european economy. Can't say how accurate it is since I'm not overmuch familiar but I'm reasonably sure that's what they were going for.

[Fouredged Sword]

It is important to remember that the game's designers deliberately chose to oversimplify the game's economic system. Tracking economy is a serious pain and, in most cases, utterly unnecessary. It can be very interesting if you and your players are into that sort of thing but most groups very much appreciate the simplification even if they don't know it.

That said, near as I can tell they tried to simulate pre-renaissance, temperate european economy. Can't say how accurate it is since I'm not overmuch familiar but I'm reasonably sure that's what they were going for.

Oh, I agree from a gameist perspective, but if you ignore all external influences, divine fiat is the easiest in game explanation for why values are so set in stone.

[Scorponok]

It is important to remember that the game's designers deliberately chose to oversimplify the game's economic system.

Is there a link to an interview or article for this tidbit? Since reading bits of the PHB and DMG regarding economy, I had guessed they didn't hire an economist as an advisor as some of the set prices for items seemed quite simplistic and/or didn't make a whole lot of sense. If they chose to do this deliberately, it would at least to me, explain that part. But it would be an interesting read in any case.

As for the OP, in real life, the paper we use to acquire items don't have value either, but it's backed by a government that tells merchants they have to accept it as legal form of payment. If it happening in the here and now, it's not a stretch to believe it would be similar in a fantasy setting.

In my own world, gold pieces aren't solid gold, but a cheaper metal coated in gold. King says people must use it. People who melt it down for the gold are executed.

[Nightcanon]

The 2nd Ed DMG has an interesting excursion into the history of coinage and currency in various Earth cultures, and how you might borrow from them to get a more authentic flavour in fantasy settings, if that's what you are after.

[Sith_Happens]

There is literally a god of commerce and money. I think whatever he says goes works for money. He up and states "All prices for X are Y pieces of gold,", then that is the value of X. Divine fiat is the simplest solution to most of the 3.5 valuation. Otherwise, just how many bear anuses do you really NEED to make that belt of constitution? If their value in GP isn't fixed by some outside force, what measuring stick is used to determine their value when going to craft something?

The only wrinkle is this would make the god of commerce a communist, which while not technically contradictory is more than a bit odd.

[Invader]

An answer for Eberron. The Dragons being the first mortal race hoarded shinies and traded stuff with others in exchange for more shinies. The "lesser" races saw that the Dragons bought stuff in exchange for useless coins and adopted this cultural quirk for themselves, thus Eberron has capitalism.

But someone had to mine, smelt, and mint the coins first.

It could be argued that dragons horded gold ore but that seems less likely.

[ThisIsZen]

This may not be a particularly good explanation for someone looking for an actual in-universe rationale, but it's what I've decided to use for my games unless economic issues somehow become paramount. It relates more to the idea that the PCs travel in a 'bubble of the game,' sort of like how reality was subjective in old Spaghetti Westerns and subject to camera focus, but that's a bit of an aside and is mostly intended to allow worldbuilding that doesn't end in the Tippyverse.

The idea is this: the gold, silver and copper piece don't actually exist. Or rather, similar currencies might exist in some nations, but they aren't just some universally-adopted and valued coinage. Gold, silver and copper represent buying power on the part of the PCs, which for simplicity's sake doesn't change when crossing borders - it's the absolute, observed-from-outside wealth of the party. The game operates assuming g/s/c, so therefore whatever the party might actually be using to trade (be it coins, or sheep's knuckles, or pounds of salt), it's represented in the 'out of universe' game stat "gold". The detail is only important if the campaign actually makes it important, so unless the players explicitly ask 'well, what's the money like here,' it can safely be left in the realm of irrelevant background information.

This way, you can allude to a complex economic reality while letting the players remain in the realms they're familiar with. But then, I'm big on mechanical abstractions for the sake of gameplay that obscure rather than dictate setting elements, so.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm D&D, gold pieces are fairly universal (not the pieces themselves, but the system they are a part of). Unfortunately, they have very little inherent value to them, only ascribed, symbolic value. So who made this system of currency in-game? I know that the question has no real answer, but I'd like to have one in-game, so any good suggestions?

Maybe gold was originally used as a symbol? Sacrifice a sheep to a local god, the priest gives you a cheap medallion to show that you had fulfilled your debts. They began to be used to be given during exchanges as IOUs, and eventually just ended up being considered payment?

[Fouredged Sword]

The detail is only important if the campaign actually makes it important, so unless the players explicitly ask 'well, what's the money like here,' it can safely be left in the realm of irrelevant background information.


I actually have a custom setting I play around with that has two major currencies that are used side by side. The first is a republic that mints coinage in metal. Metal is not common and difficult to mine (the setting consists entirely of floating islands). The other is an empire who mints jade beads, rings, bars, and plaques (equal in value to copper, silver, gold, and platinum coins).

I left the two coinage systems interchangeable, with equal value given to each for ease of play. People would pay them in one or the other based on their backers. This was an interesting touch to a setting that had players acting as chess pieces in a shadow war of influence between the two sides.

[ThisIsZen]

Like I said, when the detail is important to the campaign, it emerges. Whether it's a two-currency system or you want to play a merchant caravan and get out a huge table of supply and demand rates and currency exchanges, deal with moneylenders on the regular and know the names and shapes of thirty different coins (some of which aren't coins in the conventional sense), one way or another it adds an interesting and relevant element to the campaign setting.

(Some currencies would always be relevant. For instance, I'd never let my 'game bubble' blur the fact that larvae are larvae - if you're dealing in souls you should know it.)

If you don't WANT to deal with those economic realities though, the gp is a safe haven. It's D&D's Newtonian physics (I dunno the appropriate economic analogue) - it may be a drastic simplification of the real but it still works. The player has enough nebulous buying power, through any lens, to get his +1 sword.

For what it's worth, your setting and the economic conflict you set up sounds actually very interesting, particularly since the idea of Jade coinage is really neat and I like the aesthetic. I'm not gainsaying the idea of adding in economic detail to the game itself - I'm just giving my own personal 'out' for when details of currency from the background lore would otherwise interfere with, rather than enrich, a campaign.

[Fouredged Sword]

My point was that even though I added a interesting plot element of varying coinage, I didn't feel the need to alter any prices or do any additional math. 1 jade bead = 1 copper coin. Simple. Anything more complicated would risk getting away from the core of the game, IE adventuring. It's dungeons and dragons, not accounts and accounting. Traveler is a system for a reason.

[Extra Anchovies]

not accounts and accounting. Traveler is a system for a reason.

(As an aside, I think "Receipts and Revenue" would be a better name for an economic game)

Oh yes, the trade tables in Traveler. Those are so much fun. Of course, the best way to make lots of money in a Traveler game is to sell your spaceship and retire to live off the millions you gain from the sale.

[Sith_Happens]

It's D&D's Newtonian physics (I dunno the appropriate economic analogue) - it may be a drastic simplification of the real but it still works.

Rational self-interest.:smalltongue:


Of course, the best way to make lots of money in a Traveler game is to sell your spaceship and retire to live off the millions you gain from the sale.

Until whoever you borrowed millions from to buy the ship in the first place comes to collect, or the cops finally track you down for having stolen the ship, or whatever else might be applicable.:smallamused:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Until whoever you borrowed millions from to buy the ship in the first place comes to collect, or the cops finally track you down for having stolen the ship, or whatever else might be applicable.:smallamused:

Read; plot-hooks.

[bigstipidfighte]

Gold has inherent magical value, as does silver. Its also nice for shiny jewelry. If you're interested in a more elaborate answer from a single knowledgeable individual, I expect afroakuma would answer this in his planar questions thread. Gold is popular across the planes, after all.

[SimonMoon6]

A wizard did it.

Seriously.

Spells often have components the cost of which are fixed in GP. So, if you need a diamond that cost 5000 gp, it doesn't matter what diamond it is (how big or how small), only how much you paid for it. As shown in an OOTS strip, if you get a good deal on a diamond, that just means you have to go back and buy more until you've spent the right amount.

So the universe has a built-in measurement for value. And these are things that wizards (and other spellcasters) know. So, the appropriate fractional value of a certain spell's material component is what is then referred to as "a gold piece". That this unit of measurement actually refers to some disk of metal of some sort is mostly immaterial.

So, wizards (who know how to make such measurements) then went about creating the economy as it is.

[Kelb_Panthera]

A wizard did it.

Seriously.

Spells often have components the cost of which are fixed in GP. So, if you need a diamond that cost 5000 gp, it doesn't matter what diamond it is (how big or how small), only how much you paid for it. As shown in an OOTS strip, if you get a good deal on a diamond, that just means you have to go back and buy more until you've spent the right amount.

So the universe has a built-in measurement for value. And these are things that wizards (and other spellcasters) know. So, the appropriate fractional value of a certain spell's material component is what is then referred to as "a gold piece". That this unit of measurement actually refers to some disk of metal of some sort is mostly immaterial.

So, wizards (who know how to make such measurements) then went about creating the economy as it is.

Bad example. The OoTS strip was a tongue in cheek dig at the oversimplification of the D&D 3.X economy.

Value and price are linked but not necessarily the same. Getting a diamond worth 5000gp for 3000gp doesn't change the fact that it's worth 5000gp. Watch an episode of Pawn Stars on the History Channel, it'll give you several examples of the difference between worth and price.

Bottom line: if you dug up that 5k diamond yourself, then the fact that you paid nothing for it doesn't mean you can't use it for a res'.

[holywhippet]

For an in universe explanation I'd suggest that one nation or organization who is heavily into trade would be responsible. They'd have developed their currency system and people trading with them would start to use it as well. Other countries might accept the forms of this currency for simplicities sake. They might put their own marks on the coins, but the weight of each metal coin would be set. Anyone who tried to use a different weight system would be forced to pay conversion fees when trading so other countries would just fall in line to avoid this.

[Yahzi]

In my world XP are tangible; you can carry them around in your pocket. You can use them to gain levels, or make magic items. The interplanar currency is XP; gold pieces are just a way to make small change.

I know this sounds weird, but it works really well in-game.

[atemu1234]

My personal idea is that it's the working of the lawful planes. Mostly Mechanus, because they seem the most likely to be anal about that kind of thing.

In all essence, they control supply and demand, and every gold piece is stamped with a fine arcane mark saying as such. I think I may even homebrew a type of Inevitable to defend the Economy.

[SimonMoon6]

Value and price are linked but not necessarily the same. Getting a diamond worth 5000gp for 3000gp doesn't change the fact that it's worth 5000gp. Watch an episode of Pawn Stars on the History Channel, it'll give you several examples of the difference between worth and price.

That's in the real world, not D&D.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's in the real world, not D&D.

Nope. If that were the case, the appraisal skill would be useless and the haggling function of diplomacy would be equally nonsensical.

Choosing to deliberately ignore the economic reality that value and price are not the same thing is a decision a DM can choose to make but it's not the default anymore than choosing to address it is.

Case-in-point PC's sell stuff at half price, the vendor then turns around and sells the exact same piece to the NPC customer directly behind the PC in line. Did the value of the item change twice in a matter of moments or did the price? Hint: only one option isn't utter nonsense.

[Rijan_Sai]

Economic simplification aside, I'm still fond of this explanation:
**Disclaimer: I am not the original author of this work. To the original author: I am not attempting to plagiarize your work, I was just unable to find your name to give you full credit.**
About 2000 years ago a wizard was making a magic item and said, "ya know, I wonder why it always takes up EXACTLY the same amount of THIS material, and yet the same amount of THIS material.

I wonder what a single unit of magic is.

So after some research he came up with what turned out to be, The Gold Piece. The single unit of magic. Turns out you can directly melt down gold for magic and same with most "valuable" materials. Then he did a bit more work and figured out what an XP was. He hired some people to "adventure" and measured them over the years and took samples and used XP transfering spells and eventually discovered the XP as well.

Well, gosh darn it if the guy didn't want to publish his life's work.

Suddenly wizards, clerics, everyone really, was figuring out EXACTLY how much it took to make a given potion, or a +2 sword. In fact, some other wizards worked off of HIS calculations and discovered what a +1 actually WAS. Well, after a few short years this info trickled down to the merchants who learned how much they were being ripped off.

I paid HOW MUCH for a plus +1 dagger and it only cost WHAT???

Well, being a free market people started taking business elsewhere. Low level apprentices started under cutting higher level wizards. Suddenly there was a rebound. For a short few years there, you could actually buy some magic items for less then the cost to create them.

Well, that didn't last long. I might be a holy crusader and you might be an evil necromancer, but we each got bills to pay. And so an informal "agreement" was made. It was never written down, it was never made into a treaty or anything so formal. There was no single date. It just sort of... slid into the current state of affairs.

Magic items are made for X GP and X/25 xp and sold for 2X. Originally it was a compromise that just was "common" sense. Then it became tradition. And now it's just how things are done. Oh, occationally get you someone who gouges the prices or someone who floods the market, but that doesn't happen often. Why?

Because GOLD ITSELF IS MAGIC.

And it's a magical world. Since the value of gold is not based on rarity, but on the actual usefulness of the material itself.

If you flood the market with a million gold pieces in the real world, inflation goes crazy. If you flood the market in the fantasy world, a great deal of the gold becomes stock piled in wizards's towers/cleric's churches/dragon's hoards. What isn't stockpiled is used to make or trade for materials to make magic and actually leaves the supply FOREVER.

Now, there's only so much gold, and gold's heavy and gold isn't that effective for making magic. Wizards usually use something else when actually making something. A healing potion made from gold is kinda hard to carry around on an adventure. Still, gold is useful as a means of trade and works just fine when its used as the lubrication in the gears of commerce.

So why is there Magic Mart? Why are the prices fixed and inflation never gets out of control? Because unlike the real world where money isn't backed by anything. (You can't eat money. You can't wear it. You can't live in it.) Our money in the real world is a form of faith. Even in gold, silver, and other "hedge" forms of investment. You can't eat those.

But in D&D, you CAN make a house out of a gem. You CAN make food out of gold. You CAN wear silver. And it always takes the same amount of Gold/silver/gemstone dust/whatever.

And since everyone knows what a unit of magic is, and what an experience point is, and what a +1 is and what a level is, they know the "value" of a magic item, and thus, the price, is usually the same wherever you go.

[ThisIsZen]

My point was that even though I added a interesting plot element of varying coinage, I didn't feel the need to alter any prices or do any additional math. 1 jade bead = 1 copper coin. Simple. Anything more complicated would risk getting away from the core of the game, IE adventuring. It's dungeons and dragons, not accounts and accounting. Traveler is a system for a reason.

Oh, fair enough.

I suppose stating that my favorite system ever is Traveler might explain my outlook on why I try to avoid even THINKING about economics unless I really want to go down that rabbit hole.

WRT XP as a known commodity: I can totally see how this would work, and possibly even work well. It's not something I would do personally ('cause I prefer to not have to adhere to game logic when worldbuilding, since it lets me avoid certain inevitable conclusions), but it's definitely a very elegant solution to the problem. It would also help get around having to explain some of the stranger incongruities of the system, as well, outside of economics, because the rules are actually acknowledged as the laws of the universe.

[Threadnaught]

But someone had to mine, smelt, and mint the coins first.

It could be argued that dragons horded gold ore but that seems less likely.

Well I think they may have gone underground with the Couatl during the Age of Demons. This would've allowed them to spot gemstones and the occasional ore vein, the metal may have had it's uses to the Dragons following their victory. The gemstones are rather obvious in their shininess.
Whatever uses the metal had, perhaps the Dragons developed fine art, which degraded into coinage in order to have "moar shinies!"

Maybe the Giants begun the practice of coinage, after noting how the Dragons enjoyed shiny stuff and capitalized on the Dragon's love for all that glitters, to convince them to pass on their knowledge of Magic.

[atemu1234]

Well I think they may have gone underground with the Couatl during the Age of Demons. This would've allowed them to spot gemstones and the occasional ore vein, the metal may have had it's uses to the Dragons following their victory. The gemstones are rather obvious in their shininess.
Whatever uses the metal had, perhaps the Dragons developed fine art, which degraded into coinage in order to have "moar shinies!"

Maybe the Giants begun the practice of coinage, after noting how the Dragons enjoyed shiny stuff and capitalized on the Dragon's love for all that glitters, to convince them to pass on their knowledge of Magic.

Didn't dragons enslave a lot of people? Or were worshiped by people at some point? Isn't it possible that they made their servants mint gold into aesthetically pleasing coins, which, following their defeat, spread as the first form of currency?

[Threadnaught]

Didn't dragons enslave a lot of people? Or were worshiped by people at some point? Isn't it possible that they made their servants mint gold into aesthetically pleasing coins, which, following their defeat, spread as the first form of currency?

Possibly, I don't remember anything about the "lesser races" defeating them outside of lone dragons/Aerennal incursions.

I'd assume the Giants of Xen'drik made the Elves and Drow do the minting (and mining, and smelting), in order to better manipulate the Dragons' love for shinies. As for the other races, well Dragons did visit the whole world before the fall of Xen'drik, so it's possible that the other races may have been taught the craft by Dragons who had been impressed by the dealings at Xen'drik.