Belkar as Neutral Evil

[Bumpri]

The focus thusfar has been on Belkar's Evil vs. Neutralness, I don't dispute him being evil, the lead plate, the unholy blight, the numerous times it's been said that he is indeed evil by his creator pretty much confirm that.

I'm curious though, the only real evidence of his chaos vs lawfulness is him saying to a lawyer he was chaotic. Since he is evil, there is no compulsion for him to be honest(unless he's lawful I suppose).

That(along with all of his other actions) rules out lawful evil but that doesn't rule out neutral evil.

I've seen the statements made on the sureness of him being evil, but only implication that he's chaotic.

His enlightened self interest would lead me to believe he's neutral, but it doesn't bar him from being chaotic either.

I'm new here, started reading a Belkar's Alignment thread and it just struck me that there is no real proof he's chaotic, and even the confirmation of his evilness skips around confirming his chaoticness.

I'm not here to argue the point, I hope this doesn't turn into another "belkar's alignment" threads either. Just wondering if anyone else can point me in the direction of other proof of his chaotic alignment. It's not even that big of a deal. Still, curious.

[Legendary]

Um, how about the fact that the Giant said, "He's chaotic evil, get over it," or something similar?

[Saithis Bladewing]

Nice try, anyone who tries to start a debate. Gg. Here's the evidence. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0230.html)

It's also been stated by the Giant somewhere, but I don't have the link on me. Some forum archiver fanatic will.

[MReav]

Then there was his setting the tent on fire as a distraction.

And trying to get himself killed doesn't strike me as "enlightened self interest".

[Saithis Bladewing]

Then there was his setting the tent on fire as a distraction.

And trying to get himself killed doesn't strike me as "enlightened self interest".

Yep.

His behaviour is, at best (lawfully), designed in short-term plans to inflict long-term random pain and suffering on people. At worst, it's just whatever the hell he feels like doing at that time.

[Querzis]

Belkar is always acting on a whim. Hes wild, hes adaptable or maybe I should say he can completely change his attitude in two seconds and law and rules are irrevelant for him, hes chaotic. He did an incredible number of chaotics actions but just tell me one time where he did a lawfull action. By the way, Lawfull evil character lie as often as chaotic evil character. Hell, just look at Nale.

[BobTheDog]

Nale doesn't lie. Nale decieves. There's a difference... Isn't there?

[Querzis]

Nale doesn't lie. Nale decieves. There's a difference... Isn't there?

Um...no except maybe that deceiving is worse then lying since you need to lie a lot to deceive someone.

[The Extinguisher]

For the record, if he were to lie and say he was chaotic there, it wouldn't have gained him any, and thus would not be an evil act, but a chaotic one.

So he's chaotic no matter how you slice it.

[EvilElitest]

1. There is a difference between deciet and lies. Lies are outright. If somebody asked me "Did you steal the cookies?" and i said no, i would be lying if i stoal the cookies. If I said "I swear in the name of christ I would never do something like that" i would not, as I am not Christian. Also, while the first question is an outright answer based on wheater or not i stole food, the second one is based on what i would and would not do.
2. Belkar has shown many chaotic traits, such as throwing knivies at Roy, and as yet has shown no NE traits. The thing about CE is that you can do pretty much anything without losing your aligment
from,
EE

[Assassinfox]

For the record, if he were to lie and say he was chaotic there, it wouldn't have gained him any, and thus would not be an evil act, but a chaotic one.

So he's chaotic no matter how you slice it.

Telling a lie doesn't instantly flip your alignment to chaotic.

:redcloak: What is your favorite color?
:miko: Red! No! Yellooooo-* loses powers *

[MReav]

Didn't Nale lie about the benevolent king they were working for?

[J_Muller]

Yep.

His behaviour is, at best (lawfully), designed in short-term plans to inflict long-term random pain and suffering on people. At worst, it's just whatever the hell he feels like doing at that time.

Quoted for Truth. Belkar is like Black Mage. He takes immense pleasure from inflicting random pain and suffering on bystanders.

[bluish_wolf]

Examples of really chaotic behavior from Belkar would be the when he burns the tents down at the bandit camp and the time he tries to defeat Elan for experience.

[RowlieBowlie]

Belkar has stated himself as Chaotic but not wether he is good, evil or neutral.

Well I guess good is out of the question allthough I can remember one comic in which he suddenly feels deep greave for the ones he killed (the one were V casts owl wisdom on him) Here he states he will never kill a living being again.

So Belkar has both a good and a bad side. He is Chaotci no matter what and allhtough he likes to kill he does not care wether the thing he kills is good or evil. Therefore it would be my conclusion that Belkar is indeed Chaotic Neutral.

[BobTheDog]

He IS Evil.

Killing for pleasure, at random, for no reason except being able to, and taking joy and pride from the act, is Evil.

[RowlieBowlie]

well So far I have only see him slay evil creatures, Goblins, Hydra, Chimerae, all evil creatures. Sure he wanted to make Miko a fallen paladin, so he thusfar He does not strike me as thoroughly evil, for only slaying evil creatures. Definatly not good, but not directly evil either

[Shadow of the Sun]

Rich himself said he was evil! Don't try to get blood out of a stone, when the creator denied it's existence in the first place!

[RowlieBowlie]

pffft Rich is just trying to pull the wool over our eyes :-)

[BisectedBrioche]

But you can bet blood out of a stone...if you squeeze a mouse on it.

But I'd feel bad about that.

[vbushido]

Choatic actions: :belkar:

-scribbling all over Roy while Roy is incapacitated
-killing rats, then chasing Elan, for XP
-getting into a deathmatch with YikYik when the OoTS and LG are allied
-abandoning his post guarding Vaarsuvius because it was boring
-setting bandit camp on fire despite Haley repeatedly insisting he shouldn't
-kills guard and scrawls his innards on the wall instead of just escaping prison, then taunting Miko
-waking Miko up after she was knocked senseless by tossing a dagger at her (average person would have just left at that point or coup de graced)
-killer hornets in jar on V prank
-"Kill your allies and give me their magic items." "What! Hell, no!" "Kill your allies and keep their magic items." "Much better."

-----
Cat: a narcissistic personality in a fur suit

[Arssanguinus]

well So far I have only see him slay evil creatures, Goblins, Hydra, Chimerae, all evil creatures. Sure he wanted to make Miko a fallen paladin, so he thusfar He does not strike me as thoroughly evil, for only slaying evil creatures. Definatly not good, but not directly evil either

Was the guard at his cell an evil creature?

[Khantalas]

Belkar is evil. He is unaffected by Unholy Blight, for one. And never committed any good actions. That wouldn't serve him in the end, at least (saving the world isn't really a good action when the reason for doing it is to kill more people before you go).

[Threeshades]

Read this as shut up. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=559967&postcount=4)

The giant said he's chaotic evil, so stop wasting forum space on your nonsense.

[Theodora]

Well, I think it deserves to be a little discussed... Belkar is evil, that is clear. The fact that he is in a group of good people is weird, but if he is chaotic he can do everything he wants, right? Well the others are chaotic too, I think, so they can accept him in the group. I surely can't imagine any of them being lawful. They wouldn't do all those crazy things if they were. In short, Belkar IS chaotic evil... And stone-cold sexy. :-P

[hanzo66]

Sometimes I get confused between Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil since I don't play D&D...

Can someone fill me in on the difference?

[Elliot Kane]

Belkar's alignment has always been the most obvious and well defined of all the OOTS, to me. He's so strongly CE he'd be in the dictionary as the living definition, if there was such a thing.

I really don't get why this one gets debated so often. There are barely any discussions on the rest, and they are far more open to question.

***

hanzo66...

I have a link in my sig to my alignment definitions. They aren't strictly as per the rules (Which are very poorly defined) but they should give you some idea.

[Caractacus]

Well, I think it deserves to be a little discussed... Belkar is evil, that is clear. The fact that he is in a group of good people is weird, but if he is chaotic he can do everything he wants, right? Well the others are chaotic too, I think, so they can accept him in the group. I surely can't imagine any of them being lawful. They wouldn't do all those crazy things if they were. In short, Belkar IS chaotic evil... And stone-cold sexy. :-P

Um...Durkon...Roy?

Lawful good to a man...or dwarf...

[Earendill]

So ....

- He says himself he's Chaotic
- Rich says he's Chaotic
- All he does is Chaotic
....
- people still try to discuss / negotiate...priceless

Come on Belkar fans, you can like/love him even/especially if he is CE. No need to try and convince us he's a paladin in disguise.

[Wardog]

well So far I have only see him slay evil creatures, Goblins, Hydra, Chimerae, all evil creatures. Sure he wanted to make Miko a fallen paladin, so he thusfar He does not strike me as thoroughly evil, for only slaying evil creatures. Definatly not good, but not directly evil either

Probably because the rest of the OOTS have managed to prevent him from killing non-evil creatures (with the exception of the guard).

But he did attempt/express a desire to kill Elan (for XP), surrendered goblins (for XP), sentient creatures with green skin and fangs (to take their stuff), a helpless village (no reason given, presumable fun, profit, or both), Miko (for revenge), Miko's horse (revenge), Vaarsuvius (revenge), the Oracle (for being a kobold), and probably many others.


Sometimes I get confused between Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil since I don't play D&D...

Can someone fill me in on the difference?

Neutral evil doesn't give a damn about laws and society. He's just in it for himself, doesn't care who gets hurt in the process, and will break or exploit the law as he sees fit.

Chaotic evil actively despises law and society, and desires to tear them down and destroy them out of spite.

Now, I can imagine that I can imagine that a NE villain might also actually enjoy harming others or tearing down their works, and so do so, as in such a case doing so is "in their interest", as they enjoy it. But I could imagine a really CE villain might try to destroy things even when it goes against their interest. E.g:

LG Heroes: Surrender, Villain! Come back with us and face a fair trial!
CE Villain: Never! <sets off his lair's self destruct system, killing himself, the heroes, and anyone else within a mile radius>

Also, I think Chaotic Anything often implies disordered or poorly/not planned mode of operation.


At least, that's how I understand it.

[Black Hand]

In a nutshell I find him as chaotic as they get.

After all he's shown bouts of Lawfulness, Neutralness, maybe even a little heart from time to time, but in the end his spectrum of behaviours could only come out to being chaotic, and of course being a bitter twisted little freak he's by no way what you'd call a good boy scout. :belkar:

[brian c]

well So far I have only see him slay evil creatures, Goblins, Hydra, Chimerae, all evil creatures. Sure he wanted to make Miko a fallen paladin, so he thusfar He does not strike me as thoroughly evil, for only slaying evil creatures. Definatly not good, but not directly evil either

Belkar wasn't affected by unholy blight. He murdered his guard in cold blood and shows absolutely no remorse (even upset that he wasn't charged ith murder). He refuses to let Miko detect evil on him. Rich said he was evil.

All together that's pretty good evidence for saying that Belkar is evil.

[Oxymoron]

The difference between a neutral evil person and a chaotic evil person is difficult to explain. Even within D&D`s black and white alignment system there are many overlapping gray areas. However I will try to share my interpretation on the matter:

A NE character is pure evil and cares only for himself. He cares not for codes or laws, but he dosen`t feel the urge to oppose society or break laws at a whim eihter. Where a LE person would be "obedient" to his master and follow his orders to the letter, and a CE person would only follow a master as long as his master was strong enough to control him (through fear and/or force), a neutral evil person would gladly follow a master as long as it was convenient for him to do so, but he would also gladly betray his master when it would benefit him. A NE person is extremly selfish, caring neither for preserving society or destroying it, only for exploiting it.

A CE person is more impulsive and destructive than NE persons. His plans are usually haphaazard and poorly organized and he always works to undermine and kill those above him. He is brutal, vicious and violent.

So, will a CE, NE and LE person sometimes behave in the same manner? Absolutely. What sets them apart is consistency. A LE person will usually obey orders (but twist them to his ends), A NE evil person will break or obey orders as he sees fit, and a CE person will usually disobey orders just for the hell of it.

[Sir_Norbert]

Come on Belkar fans, you can like/love him even/especially if he is CE. No need to try and convince us he's a paladin in disguise.
Look, there's no need for this to degenerate into abuse. The OP made it clear that he's simply curious about what the evidence is, not trying to "convince us he's a paladin in disguise". It's a valid question.

One thing no-one's mentioned yet (in this topic, that is; it's been brought up before) is that although, being Evil, he could lie to the lawyer in 230, there's no reason for him to do so. On the contrary, there's every reason to suppose he's telling the truth, since his action, ignoring a lawsuit because it doesn't fit his plans, is Chaotic.

[Porthos]

Besides The Giant's list that was referenced earlier, I believe someone, somewhere made a very extensive lists of all the evil acts that Belkar has either committed or attempted to commit. But from memory, here is the Greatest Hits version (in no particular order - some with notes, some without):

Consciously attempted to get a Paladin to Fall (extremely evil according to the RAW)
Attempted to sell Samantha into slavery (evil, regardless of rules of society, according to the RAW)
Attempted to kill Elan for XP (Only stopped because he would have gotten killed by the rest of the OotS - Classic CE rationale)
Killed 15 bar patrons, plus a guard holding him prisoner afterwards, in a friendly barfight(from Origins)
There are hints that he uses violence and intimidation wherever he goes (again from Origins where he states that there are people that are afraid to say bad things about him
Repeated desecration of corpses
Killed a guard when he could have just incapacitated him
Attempted to kill Miko's horse
Kills surrendering monsters (debatable, but it shows that he likes killing for fun)

And that doesn't even start to describe all of the personality traits/outlooks that scream Chaotic Evil. And I am sure there are plenty more evil acts that I'm over looking. :smallsmile:

Really, when it comes right down to it, Belkar is the textbook definition on how one can have a CE member in an otherwise good party. The party makes sure that they can restrain his sociopathic tendencies as much as possible when they are in "civilized" areas and let him loose when they need to use him. :smallsmile:

EDIT:: I think part of the problem is that the Mark of Justice is actually restraining Belkar from committing a lot of CE acts.

I guess that shows that the Mark is working. :smallbiggrin:

But I can show at least one sign of an evil personality post Mark of Justice (besides another instance of the desecration of corpses) and that is that he sees nothing wrong with killing his fellow party members as long as gets to keep their stuff. :smallwink:

[Querzis]

Guys a CE character wont actively try to destroy society and law. For law, chaos is an enemy but for chaos, law is just irrevelant. Chaotic mean mainly that you act on a whim, so the simple idea of a code of conduct that everyone must follow (laws) sound irrevelant to you but you wont try to break them for the hell of it. A chaotic character wont obey any kind of code or rule and wont even try to do his own code but if someone give a chaotic character an order and the chaotic character think its a really good idea, he is gonna do it not because its an order but just because its a good idea! A Chaotic good character is very unlikely to break any laws of a Lawfull good society, not because he obey those laws, but just because those laws already fit his personnality and actions anyway.

Chaotic evil character always act only for themselves. That makes them potentially more destructive and dangerous then NE and LE character but it also means they can perform good actions it helps them, which is something LE and NE character are very unlikely to do. Thats why Belkar is undoubtly CE. Sure he did good actions, but he always gained something from it or was forced to do it while he do evil just for fun.

By the way guys, Lawfull evil character dont twist rule or anything, its just that the rules and laws they learned are evil! A fighter coming from a good society and who has good parent but his evil cant be lawfull. But someone who is born in an evil society and who obey the rules of this society is Lawfull evil. But if that LE character go in a Lawfull good society then he can easely break the laws since those laws have nothing to do with the laws he learned in his evil society. Thats why Nale is Lawfull evil even though hes all about breaking laws and lying, he is the son of an evil warlord, what did you expected?

[Baalzebub]

Ok, I'll post it again for those of you who still want to twist Belkar alignment.

Rich Burlew said it!! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=559967&postcount=4)

[Tredrick]

Haley tricked her party out of a share of treasure, was interested in selling Samantha into slavery, uses an ally as a divining rod, frequently threatens bodily harm on Belkar for talking about her feelings for Elan, steals a potion from Belkar to give to Elan, and looted a room denying her group mates a share of the treasure.

I am not even going to list all Vaarsuvius' evil acts, but I will give you the cherry on the cake: Ordering a dragon to kill her group if they tried to leave because they were not doing what she wanted. She immediately follows this up with a threat to her group. That my friends, is as bad or worse than anything Belkar ever did.

[Green Bean]

Telling a lie doesn't instantly flip your alignment to chaotic.

:redcloak: What is your favorite color?
:miko: Red! No! Yellooooo-* loses powers *

This is where the thread was won. :smallbiggrin:


But anyway, OT, people, if even :belkar: thinks he's chaotic, then he's probably chaotic. Sure, he could have lied to the lawyer, but since being neutral evil could have justified the killing as well, lying about his alignment would be downright.... chaotic :smallamused:

[fangthane]

First, as has been mentioned by several others, read the AUTHOR's take on Belkar's alignment - he's chaotic evil, period. End of discussion. (don't we all just wish) He embraces it, he knows it, he IS it. And frankly if you can't see that, you may have issues separating your love of the character from the reality of his motivation and actions. Get help. :smallbiggrin: I think Belkar is the rakshasa's hindquarters, but I also acknowledge that he's an evil little psychopath and on no account would I give him my credit cards.


Haley tricked her party out of a share of treasure, was interested in selling Samantha into slavery, uses an ally as a divining rod, frequently threatens bodily harm on Belkar for talking about her feelings for Elan, steals a potion from Belkar to give to Elan, and looted a room denying her group mates a share of the treasure.
In order: Classic CH/N behavior, and many of my characters (and those of my friends) have done likewise. Moderately evil if perpetrated, but not to contemplate. Comedic rather than alignment-affecting. True neutral to offer threats and repercussions, though enforcement may have an effect toward law and (if taken to extremes) evil. Chaotic Good in narrow focus. Chaotic neutral, except when one considers that she did also give Elan a new weapon out of the haul, so marginally good. Definitely not lawful, but she's accused of that only rarely.


I am not even going to list all Vaarsuvius' evil acts, but I will give you the cherry on the cake: Ordering a dragon to kill her group if they tried to leave because they were not doing what she wanted. She immediately follows this up with a threat to her group. That my friends, is as bad or worse than anything Belkar ever did.
This, my friend, is no worse than neutral. Even allowing the dragon to make good on the threat would have been unlikely to sway alignment fully to evil and could have been mitigated by equally-lukewarm efforts toward good. Very slight tendency toward chaos based on personal preservation rather than the "right" way to do things.

[EvilElitest]

Sometimes I get confused between Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil since I don't play D&D...

Can someone fill me in on the difference?

NE is self serving, while CE is acting on whime. That is the simple form.
A corrupt king who only wants to increase his own pleasure could be NE, while an orc bandit who just likes to kill for pleasure is evil. A serial killer would be evil
from,
EE

Edit: and guys, think. If belkar lied about being chaotic, why is he their again. To kill a horse. that is not Lawful (LE) nor helps Belkar personally (NE). Why, that means he is CE. God this thread has reached two pages, that is pretty sad.

[Greebo]

Haley tricked her party out of a share of treasure, was interested in selling Samantha into slavery, uses an ally as a divining rod, frequently threatens bodily harm on Belkar for talking about her feelings for Elan, steals a potion from Belkar to give to Elan, and looted a room denying her group mates a share of the treasure.
Argues in favor of helping the mud farmers, works for the benefit of someone other than herself (her father). Lets see, what other "Haley's good acts" am I missing?


I am not even going to list all Vaarsuvius' evil acts, but I will give you the cherry on the cake: Ordering a dragon to kill her group if they tried to leave because they were not doing what she wanted. She immediately follows this up with a threat to her group. That my friends, is as bad or worse than anything Belkar ever did.

I wish you would list her "evil" acts, because if that's the cherry, that's just neutral, as someone else has already said. That was an order to the group in his own self survival interest. A threat is not an action. It may be mildly tinged evil but thats about it.

As for it being worse than anything Belkar did - um... have you examined your own alignment lately? ;)

[Tredrick]

Much of the same or similar evidence for V is applied as evidence of Belkar's evil nature. Vaarsuvius has been far more active in the feud with Belkar for no other reason than revenge for drunken, amorous advances.

So, if threatening to kill your entire party, and then backing it up with a demonstration of how easy it would be for you is neutral, threatening to kill one member is far less evil. Heck, it's practically a good act. After all, Belkar did point out that he only needed to defeat him, not kill him. Belkar pointed out that no killing was required. Heck, having one member become more powerful is for the good of the group. Elan's selfishness in surrendering and giving Belkar the required XP can be considered an evil counteraction to Belkar's attempt to gain a level for the good of the party.

Defending someone twice threatening their party with death as an un-evil action is as ridiculous my previous paragraph.

In the time since The Giant wrote his defense of Belkar's evil nature, Blekar has been far less evil. The only truly solid evil thing he has done is to try and get Miko to fall. A case could be made for killing the guard during his jailbreak, but I see that as a non-evil killing since Belkar was being held on a completely trumped-up charge, he was unarmed at the time and the guard was. If he had killed more guards, I would call it evil. Limiting himself to the one guard he had to face makes it a borderline judgment call.

A case could also be made for feeding V to the owl bear. After 11 explosive ruins and a fire trapped toilet, that is far more self defense than an evil act.

If someone just read the last 200 or so strips, they might think of Belkar as CN and not CE. Closer to the evil than good side of neutral, but still in the neutral range.

[Vespe Ratavo]

Ahem. Please excuse me a moment...

It has been stated, implied, shown, and FLAT OUT SAID BY THE GIANT HIMSELF THAT BELKAR IS CHAOTIC, AND EVIL. GET OVER IT.

Thank you.

[Nightmarenny]

A case could be made....No. No case can or has been made especially by you. Belkar had preformed several evil acts that you and everyone like you love to ignore or simply misinterprete. You are a fool and I am sick of these go nowhere arguements. So please I implore you go back and read the comic, 'cause you clearly haven't.

Haley is greedy, a vice that is counter by several vitues. She is loyal to her friends and would die for them(she jumped into melee combat when fighting Miko) and there is that whole reason for why she is greedy.

V. V's "evil" act. What you seem to ignore is the fact that the Order never was going to leave, the dragon threat was only there to get some attantion out of those that were ignoring her. If you could argue that there was every any chance of the Dragon eating the party then, fine it was an evil act. Thats one to Belkar's thousands. Oh and he perputrates a harmless feud, forgot:smallamused:.

[Bumpri]

I apologize, I know this is a touchy subject for some folks.


Then you don't understand the alignment rules at all. A person who commits Evil act after Evil act and no Good acts at all is Evil. Not &quot;Neutral with Evil tendencies,&quot; there is no such thing as &quot;tendencies&quot; in the alignment rules. In order to be Neutral you need to either a.) commit no Good or Evil acts at all, or b.) commit a more-or-less equal number of Good and Evil acts. Not c.) commit a boatload of Evil acts without guilt or regret and no Good acts except those he is bullied into.

A partial list of Evil acts Belkar has performed or attempted to perform:
• Harvesting someone's kidneys who was no threat and had a Good alignment.
• Selling an attractive young woman into slavery
• Slitting the throats of helpless people
• Trying to kill an ally strictly to level up
• Killing three barbarians when he only needed to defeat (not kill) one of them
• Professing a desire to go back and kill his family and childhood friends in their sleep
• Throwing daggers at Roy just for fun

Plus countless acts of psychological abuse to his teammates for no reason other than his own amusement. And that doesn't count the 3 or 4 Evil acts from &quot;On the Origin of PCs&quot; that I don't want to list here.

Why on earth do people waste their time with this? I feel now like I could have Belkar turn to the camera and say, &quot;Hey folks, FYI, I'm Chaotic Evil,&quot; and then kill and eat a fluffy puppy, and you'd still come here and say, &quot;Well, I think he's Neutral Good.&quot;

Get over it, Belkar is Evil.

This is a good starting point, and oddly enough, my main reason for thinking he might have been neutral.

Look at the flat out statement, not the implication. Maybe he didn't avoid saying "Belkar is Chaotic Evil" but what he said was "Belkar is Evil".

Belkar's got a minimum respect for law. He's used it before for his advantage, just as any lawful evil person would do.

I think from the evidence he definately IS chaotic, however chaos and law aren't absolutes like Good and Evil.

Belkar may be a pyschopath, but he's mostly motivated by profit(XP or GP). He does do arbitrarily harmful actions(Chaotic Evil) but not so many that he constantly disrupts the group, he's oppourtunisticly evil(Neutral Evil), but he's been shown to use the law to his advantage(Lawful Evil).

In the end, I concede he is Chaotic(at best Chaotic/Neutral assuming that's allowed) however, from the evidence presented. Thanks guys.

[zeratul]

ok man ive been down this road, ive started a thread saying he was CN and its WAS NOT PRETTY I advize you to stop, this wont end well.

[Studoku]

steals a potion from Belkar to give to Elan

Stealing a potion from an evil character to help someone who needs it is textbook chaotic good behavior.

[Innis Cabal]

Tell an inevitable or a Modron that law is not as absolute as good or evil....they will tell you other wise...Heck ask a Solar if law is not absolute. I would give a chaotic creature but i dont think they really think about it.

[Jayabalard]

Ahem. Please excuse me a moment...

It has been stated, implied, shown, and FLAT OUT SAID BY THE GIANT HIMSELF THAT BELKAR IS CHAOTIC, AND EVIL. GET OVER IT.

Thank you.Alignments are changeable; it's possible that he's changed since then (though I don't personally agree that he's changed)

It was also shown by the Giant that Belkar is only evil because of his lack of wisdom; if her were wiser he would be a peace loving boy scout instead.

[Bumpri]

Oh no, let me make this point he is EVIL. That is never to be disputed. He is definately evil.

When I say Chaotic/Neutral I mean in relation to his law vs. chaos, not his good vs evil.

He IS Chaotic Evil, at BEST he's Chaotic/Neutral Evil. But he IS evil, no dispute, no being partly neutral partly evil.

He's Evil, hasn't changed from evil the whole time I've read the comic, but his chaotic tendancies have changed from time to time.

[Innis Cabal]

and they can change from time to time, unlike a paladin or other alignment strict class, and it wont affect him much

[zeratul]

and now the convo descends into the fifth corner of hell

[Nightmarenny]

and they can change from time to time, unlike a paladin or other alignment strict class, and it wont affect him muchExept he would be a totally different person. If Belkar changed alinments we could tell.

[Khantalas]

I'm waiting for a casting of Chaos Hammer on Belkar. Maybe than people will finally get it.

[MReav]

Tell an inevitable or a Modron that law is not as absolute as good or evil....they will tell you other wise...Heck ask a Solar if law is not absolute. I would give a chaotic creature but i dont think they really think about it.

Depends on the Solar. Solars have the Good Subtype, not the Lawful Subtype. A better example would have been a Trumpet Archon or a Pit Fiend (I know what you're getting at, but I suggest a better example).


and there is that whole reason for why she is greedy.

OtOoPCs:
Of course. Longstanding family history :smalltongue:. She was greedy long before that letter. Still, she is willing to put her greed aside to help her father, so she can't be condemned for that (though her continued concealment of the issue unfortunately prevents others from seeing that highly altruistic side of her)

[Innis Cabal]

thanks i guess? you still got the point and thats really all that matters

[Rumpus]

I would dispute that killing the guard was an evil act. After being dragged off in chains by agents of a foreign country to face trumped up charges where the penalty is death, I think killing a guard in the process of escaping isn't totally over the line.

For comparison, let's say an Dutchman is kidnapped out of Amersterdam by Singaporean DEA agents and threatened with the death penalty for "substance" use in his own country (legal in Amsterdam, punishable by death in Singapore). If he killed a guard in the process of escaping, is that evil? I'd say even if the guard was a work-a-day drone (LN), the killing is tough to condemn under the circumstances.

Now, smearing his blood over the walls to taunt Miko? Yeah, that's evil (as is Belkar). But I still argue that the killing itself wasn't.

[Lizard Lord]

Why is this thread still going? Has it not yet been mentioned that the creator of the comic stated flat out that Belkar is chaotic evil?

[Lizard Lord]

Alignments are changeable; it's possible that he's changed since then (though I don't personally agree that he's changed)

It was also shown by the Giant that Belkar is only evil because of his lack of wisdom; if her were wiser he would be a peace loving boy scout instead.

His lack of wisdom also causes him to enjoy fighting and killing things. Since Belkar clearly still enjoys those things, I am going to have to say he did not put any points in Wisdom yet.

[Nightmarenny]

I would dispute that killing the guard was an evil act. After being dragged off in chains by agents of a foreign country(acting completly within their right as servents of the gods) to face very real and indisputable charges where the penalty if found guilty is death, I think killing a guard in the process of escaping isn't totally over the line(even though he shouldn't have escaped in the first place and faced to court, but hey, he's not lawful).

For comparison, let's say an Dutchman is kidnapped out of Amersterdam by Singaporean DEA agents and threatened with the death penalty for attemting to cause nuklear holocauste in his own country (and every other countries on the face of the earth). If he killed a guard in the process of escaping, is that evil(God yes)? I'd say even if the guard was a work-a-day drone (LN), the killing is pretty damn easy to condemn under the circumstances.

Now, smearing his blood over the walls to taunt Miko? Yeah, disgusting(as is Belkar). But I still argue that the killing itself wasn't(because I'm ignoring that the saphire did have the right to punish him).

Fix'd for truth

[Bumpri]

Why is this thread still going? Has it not yet been mentioned that the creator of the comic stated flat out that Belkar is chaotic evil?


I tend to agree he was implying it, but his explicit statement was "Belkar is Evil" not that "Belkar is Chaotic Evil".

[Innis Cabal]

Bumpri....he is a barbarian.....he has to be chaotic....end of story

[Leather_Book_Wizard]

Bumpri....he is a barbarian.....he has to be chaotic....end of story

Barbarians only have to be nonlawful. But, Belkar is Chaotic Evil. The Giant has said so. Belkar acts Chaotic Evil. He is unaffected by unholy blight.

[Lizard Lord]

Barbarians only have to be nonlawful. But, Belkar is Chaotic Evil. The Giant has said so. Belkar acts Chaotic Evil. He is unaffected by unholy blight.

And he said he was chaotic.

If any says he was lying may I ask why he would lie? Would it be so he could act in a chaotic matter? If so then doesn't the argument "he was lying" kind of backfire on it's self?

[Celisasu]

And one reason he might seem more CN rather than CE these last 200 or so comics could just maybe, possibly be that whole Mark of Justice? Just a thought. Having a curse that zaps you whenever you do evil acts just might possibly cause you to behave to avoid said zapping.

[Sir_Norbert]

I would dispute that killing the guard was an evil act. After being dragged off in chains by agents of a foreign country to face trumped up charges where the penalty is death, I think killing a guard in the process of escaping isn't totally over the line.

For comparison, let's say an Dutchman is kidnapped out of Amersterdam by Singaporean DEA agents and threatened with the death penalty for "substance" use in his own country (legal in Amsterdam, punishable by death in Singapore). If he killed a guard in the process of escaping, is that evil? I'd say even if the guard was a work-a-day drone (LN), the killing is tough to condemn under the circumstances.

Now, smearing his blood over the walls to taunt Miko? Yeah, that's evil (as is Belkar). But I still argue that the killing itself wasn't.
He was dragged off in chains on Shojo's command (and Miko's overzealousness); the guard was completely innocent and was only keeping Belkar imprisoned because that's his job.

The killing was completely unnecessary; he had the Ring of Jumping and you can bet the guard isn't a magic-user. He only killed him for pleasure and so that he could get to fight Miko.

Evil.

[Fishies]

Didn't Nale lie about the benevolent king they were working for?


Objection! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=1828214)

[MReav]

Objection! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=1828214)


Oh, that's so wrong it's Wright.

[spectralphoenix]

1. There is a difference between deciet and lies. Lies are outright. If somebody asked me "Did you steal the cookies?" and i said no, i would be lying if i stoal the cookies. If I said "I swear in the name of christ I would never do something like that" i would not, as I am not Christian.
While I agree that one does not have to lie to deceive, I disagree with your 2nd example - the statement is still untrue, you just aren't backing it up with an oath as strong as the listener may think.

[Tredrick]

Alignments are changeable; it's possible that he's changed since then (though I don't personally agree that he's changed)

It was also shown by the Giant that Belkar is only evil because of his lack of wisdom; if her were wiser he would be a peace loving boy scout instead.

This is what I am saying. Alignments can change through willful actions by the player or forgetting what you are supposed to be role playing. If Giant thinks Belkar is evil, but is not writing him that way for one reason or another, there is a problem.

For those of you who did not understand what I was saying, I agree that Belkar is evil, or is supposed to be anyway. I am also saying he has not been very evil for the last 200 or so strips.

Seriously, list his clearly evil actions since strip 200. Outside of trying to get a paladin to fall, he really doesn't have many. Mind you, that is a big one and certainly enough to say he still belongs in the evil category. Outside that, though, the Belkster has been pretty darned neutral for a long time.

If Belkar has a string of evil actions since comic 200 that I have missed, let me know.


He was dragged off in chains on Shojo's command (and Miko's overzealousness); the guard was completely innocent and was only keeping Belkar imprisoned because that's his job.

The killing was completely unnecessary; he had the Ring of Jumping and you can bet the guard isn't a magic-user. He only killed him for pleasure and so that he could get to fight Miko.

Evil.

Nah, he needed the guys blood for ink. Pressing need exception. Neutral. :smallbiggrin:

[Lizard Lord]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0358.html

I would say this was pretty evil.

Having party members kill the kobold may be justified as self defense, but using his skull as a bowl and his blood as salsa is where Belkar crosses the line between neccessary and evil.

And if my beleif on his motives is correct I would say giving Roy the ring of jumping is evil, as I am not sure if Belkar honestly beleived Roy would come out on top. I am quite certain he just wanted to win the bet with the theif.

[Nightmarenny]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0358.html

I would say this was pretty evil.

Having party members kill the kobold may be justified as self defence, but using his skull as a bowl and dipping the tortitas in his blood is where Belkar crosses the line between neccessary and evil (and gross too of course).

And if my beleif on his motives is correct I would say giving Roy the ring of jumping is evil, as I am not sure if Belkar honestly beleived Roy would come out on top. I am quite certain he just wanted to win the bet with the theif.
I hate to claim something Belkar did as not evil but as a meat eater I must protest.

[Mr Teufel]

Eating a sentient being is probably evil; even if he didn't, mutilating the corpse is probably evil.

[Lizard Lord]

I hate to claim something Belkar did as not evil but as a meat eater I must protest.

Eating meat is one thing, but good or neutral people ussually don't eat intelligent humanoids.

Would you eat someone intelligent enough to speak to you just because they weren't human (and because you thought they tasted good, of course thinking that about someone you just spoke with is pretty twisted on it's own).

[Nightmarenny]

Eating meat is one thing, but good or neutral people ussually don't eat intelligent humanoids.

Would you eat someone intelligent enough to speak to you just because they weren't human?You show me a human and I'll have a 95% percent chance of showing you someone I'd eat......

Seriously, I get your point.

[Frank]

I don't trip over these alignment arguments, despite the fact Rich said it. Why?

Because it's up to all of us whether we read the thread, and post in it, or not. If you really think this thread is so stupid it should end...why are you posting? To continue an argument means you justify the logic of the argument enough to engage in it. If you don't, why engage?

Besides, I think it's a good mind play. Searching for truth...yeah, that's important for a lot of things. But creating a somewhat solid logical argument that shouldn't have any truth to it is a good, and fun, critical exercise...as long as it's not about something where the truth is important, or at stake.

Clearly, this comic belongs in aesthetic, rather than the ethical argument, as does the rules of Dungeons and Dragons. That said, if anyone lives by the guidelines listed in the SRD, then yeah, this is an ethical argument.

That also said: this forum has long banned any discussion of religion.

As for my take? I think Chaotic-Neutral on the chaos/order meter and pure Evil on the other describes Belkar's ACTIONS post Mark of Justice. Before that? He was total Chaotic Evil. And even now, his thoughts are turned towards CE, his will is CE, everything about him desires slaughter, destruction, and chaos. He just is more out for his self-interest than committing harmful acts.

So here's a question...again, a brain-tease and nothing more, when faced with either choosing between Chaos or Evil, which would Belkar choose?

Would Belkar prefer to be free, but only if he committed good/non-committal deeds?
OR
Would Belkar prefer to be evil, but only if he did it through the letter of the law?

[Lizard Lord]

If you really think this thread is so stupid it should end...why are you posting?

Because I am bored.


Would Belkar prefer to be free, but only if he committed good/non-committal deeds?
OR
Would Belkar prefer to be evil, but only if he did it through the letter of the law?

That depends, wich one would allow him to kill more people? That is the thing Belkar cares about the most.

[Jefepato]

I find the idea of Belkar as something other than chaotic evil absurd to the point of comedy.

[factotum]

Having party members kill the kobold may be justified as self defense, but using his skull as a bowl and his blood as salsa is where Belkar crosses the line between neccessary and evil.


While I'm perfectly comfortable with Belkar being CE, I have to point out that in the first frame of the very next comic Belkar says "You don't actually think I'd eat this crap, do you? It's just for squicking Roy out." So, he isn't using blood as salsa. Of course, mutilating the corpse of a fallen enemy just to play a joke on someone is hardly the act of a Good character anyway!

[kerberos]

Fix'd in order to totally distort the truth
Much better.

[Tredrick]

While I'm perfectly comfortable with Belkar being CE, I have to point out that in the first frame of the very next comic Belkar says "You don't actually think I'd eat this crap, do you? It's just for squicking Roy out." So, he isn't using blood as salsa. Of course, mutilating the corpse of a fallen enemy just to play a joke on someone is hardly the act of a Good character anyway!

Considering the surge of adventurers who assaulted that kobold, I am not sure Belkar needed to do any mutilating.

Still, combined with his bonus for inflicting pain in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html (Comic 357,) does make the whole thing a net evil act.

For Belkar, the Chaotic side of his alignment is more important to his character than the evil side. Least ways, for about the last 230 strips.

Really, can anyone tell me this would not be a great conversation come, say, strip 750:

:miko: Smite Evil!
(Nothing much happens)
:miko: What? How? Detect Evil!
(Belkar reads not evil)
:belkar: I switched to neutral around strip 620 or so. I was bored with Evil.

[Rumpus]

(acting completly within their right as servents of the gods)
It's clear the gods are not the paragons of responsibility they would like you to think. Thor is the prime example, but there's no reason to think the 12 gods are any better.

the guard was completely innocent and was only keeping Belkar imprisoned because that's his job. The killing was completely unnecessary; he had the Ring of Jumping and you can bet the guard isn't a magic-user.

Innocent? Maybe, but was armed and his position implied the threat of violence. If Belkar had just jumped out of the pit, was the guard going to say, "Excuse me, sir, please return to your lightless hole"? No, he would shout an alarm and stab Belkar with his polearm. Jumping +20 gives you, what, an extra five feet of vertical jump? Even if there was no ceiling, that's still not enough to guarantee a getaway, especially once the guard calls for either archers or a spellcaster. Escaping from the middle of an unfamiliar enemy castle is enough of a challenge without starting with a posse chasing you.

(because I'm ignoring that the saphire did have the right to punish him).
So the Sapphire Guard has world-wide jurisdiction over anything they choose to call a crime? Sounds like every paranoid's worst nightmare about the UN (or the ICC). "I am Lawful, and I declare this is a crime, and I declare I have jurisdiction over the entire planet, therefore you are wrong to resist when I execute you"? If you change the laws to suit your own temporary goals, you've stopped being lawful (that's why Shojo isn't lawful, even if his servants are).

Regarding the seriousness of his supposed crimes, remember that Belkar didn't know why he was in jail, he just knew he faced the death penalty and they wouldn't even tell him the charges.

(even though he shouldn't have escaped in the first place and faced to court, but hey, he's not lawful)
Since you didn't like my Dutch stoner, let me offer a different example. If South American Revolutionaries kidnap a Red Cross worker and condemn her for being an "enemy of the people" in a "people's court" (three illiterate guys sitting around a jungle clearing wearing berets), is a lawful individual required to submit to their judgement and await execution, or is she in the clear to escape? At THIS point, would you agree that killing a guard in the escape attempt is not evil? Not good, but not evil?

Extreme example of a non-legitimate authority, but there's no reason for the OotS to answer to a foreign Lord, which is part of the realization Roy has when he refuses to voluntarily travel further South. Well, also realizing he didn't really want to get in Miko's kimono after all.

I'd argue that there are times when killing Good creatures is a good act. Sure, subdual damage is preferable (if you massively outclass your opponent or are a Monk), but if Roy had gotten between Shojo and Miko (who must have been Good, she still had her powers) and cleaved her? Go ahead, make the case for that being an evil act.

[Greebo]

At THIS point, would you agree that killing a guard in the escape attempt is not evil? Not good, but not evil? Even if the revolutionaries think that bringing communism to their country will be to the greater good?
Neutral at best. If she had to kill the guard to escape, sure. If she could avoid the guard, or tie up and spare the guard rather than kill, but killed the guard anyway, then its losing its neutrality. And this is for the helpless Red Cross worker in your extremely stretched to the breaking point analogy.

Belkar, however, isn't a Red Cross worker, and outclassed the guard significantly. He could have subdued the guard and left him alive. He was not compelled to kill the guard to escape or survive. He certainly was not further compelled to kill the guard, desecrate his body, and use the blood of his victim to lure Miko into a fight.

If your Red Cross worker killed her guard, desecreated his body, and lured his "judges" to their doom (remember, Belkar had Miko AT HIS MERCY, and brought her back to health to torment her further to a fate worse than death for her), then yes, she'd be committing an evil act.

Not in the escape itself, but in the use of the escape as a means to revenge and murder.

[Rumpus]

Absolutely, there was a whole buncha evil surrounding this event, I'm just arguing that the killing itself doesn't pass the evil sniff test.


If she could avoid the guard
Nope, he can only get out when the guard has the lid open and is staring down into the hole. Makes sneaking by kind of tough, no matter how many Hide ranks you have.


or tie up and spare the guard rather than kill,Despite what we all learned playing Thief, it's actually really difficult to knock someone out without killing them, especially if you want to do it quietly. You could do it with a choke hold (assuming the guard doesn't have a knife to reach around and stab you), but that's really unlikely when you need to attack from the front (see above) and can't reach higher than his lower back without jumping. Even allowing that Belkar is several levels higher than the guard, remember that Belkar is unarmed and has no gear except his ring (actually, pitting a geared-up 4 Fighter against an unarmed Halfling 8 Ranger/1 Barbarian doesn't seem too unbalanced (yes, I picked the level arbitrarily, but Belkar has no way of knowing, and Shojo has soldiers as high as 5 Fighter)). He didn't tie up the guard and kill him, he probably wrestled his knife away from him and stabbed him with it. Since he thinks failure in this escape attempt will probably result in him being killed (either in the escape (correct, Miko tries to kill him) or by trial (wrong, but consistent with what he's been told)), you've got to allow a certain amount of leeway for what on the surface seems like excessive force.


And this is for the helpless Red Cross worker in your extremely stretched to the breaking point analogy.
Yes, I believe I actually referred to it as an extreme example. But I was trying to provide an analogy that clearly illustrated wrongful imprisonment, self-proclaimed authority, and pending execution. Ok, let's not have it be a Red Cross worker, have it be a Yankee business executive (LN) who the revolutionaries charge with being a capitalist. The impending violence against his person makes his use of violence in escaping not evil.


Neutral at best.
Exactly my point. I'm not saying it's good, I'm just disagreeing with posters who cited the killing itself as an evil act. Smearing blood on the walls? Yes, evil. In fact, EEEEEVIL if he had to get more blood out of the body after the guard was dead. But the killing itself? Slightly-Dark-Grey at worst.

[Tredrick]

I'd argue that there are times when killing Good creatures is a good act. Sure, subdual damage is preferable (if you massively outclass your opponent or are a Monk), but if Roy had gotten between Shojo and Miko (who must have been good, she still had her powers) and cleaved her? Go ahead, make the case for that being an evil act.

Note that it requires an evil act to fall, not just evil thoughts. You actually have to take an evil action or actively break the Paladin code to Fall.


If your Red Cross worker killed her guard, desecreated his body, and lured his "judges" to their doom (remember, Belkar had Miko AT HIS MERCY, and brought her back to health to torment her further to a fate worse than death for her), then yes, she'd be committing an evil act.

Not in the escape itself, but in the use of the escape as a means to revenge and murder.

I am going to have to disagree this is why he did it. A close look at the relevant comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0281.html) shows Belkar not planning that far in advance, but doing it because he is bored. I just cannot buy Belkar having planned driving her into falling from the very beginning. He has never shown that much forethought.

[EvilElitest]

Rumbos, your wrong. Killing innocents is never good, and killing them when it is not nessary is neutral. Now i would like to point out, the guard was not ready to attack Belkar, he was crouched over the pit. Second he did not have a ready pole arm he had a sheathed sword. Third, Belkar took him out with the jump and smashed his head against the wall. He simply stabbed him with it afterwards.
from,
EE

[Rumpus]

Note that it requires an evil act to fall, not just evil thoughts. You actually have to take an evil action or actively break the Paladin code to Fall.Right, if she had already fallen she wouldn't have provided an example. She may actually still be Good (if insane), one evil act removes Paladin powers, but doesn't automatically shift you to Evil. But we KNOW she was still Good up to the second she chopped Shojo, and that's why she is my example of killing something "Good" in defense of something else "Good" being a net positive act. As we confirmed in subsequent strips, reasoning with her isn't an option, and nobody present has a net or mancatcher to subdue her (Roy knocking her out keeps her alive for story purposes, can you do subudal damage with a 2-handed sword?).


Killing innocents is never good, and killing them when it is not nessary is neutral. I'm assuming you meant killing innocents when neccessary is neutral, but I'm actually quoting to quibble over the definition of "innocent". By carrying arms (which implies a willingness to use them), the guard takes himself out of the innocent category. If Belkar had somehow broken free on his own and then found an unarmed servant, THAT person would be an innocent.


the guard was not ready to attack Belkar, he was crouched over the pit.True, but that's because he assumed Belkar wasn't a threat. If he had any idea a 3-foot halfing could jump nine feet in the air, he probably would have had his sword out and another guard for backup. And if Belkar had jumped out past the guard, what do you think would have happened next? Opposed Grappling checks? Maybe, but that's a big chance to take for a prisoner on death row.


Second he did not have a ready pole arm he had a sheathed sword.Whoops, got me there, I hadn't looked at the strip since it came out. But the type of weapon isn't relevant.


Third, Belkar took him out with the jump and smashed his head against the wall. He simply stabbed him with it afterwards.Maybe. Now that I look at the strip again, we go straight from the panel of Belkar slamming the guard to the panel of Belkar stabbing the prone guard. We don't know whether the guard was resisting when Belkar stabbed him. If he was unconscious, then my whole argument falls apart, and this was an evil act after all. We can't be sure, but the fact that the guard lets out a "Glurk!" as Belkar stabs him suggests he is still conscious, and hence could still raise an alarm. Good points, but not conclusive.

[Nightmarenny]

Much better because I enjoy ignoring that Shojo and the Gods had sovrenty as the only ones who could prevent universal destruction and therefore must act to prevent it.
Fix'd because your still lying.

[bluish_wolf]

Rumpus, you are still ignoring the fact that Belkar didn't kill the guard to escape, he killed the guard because he was bored. If he was actually trying to escape, he would have, you know, actually gone and done that instead of going after Miko.

[Rumpus]

I enjoy ignoring that Shojo and the Gods had sovrenty as the only ones who could prevent universal destruction and therefore must act to prevent it.Unknown to Belkar. Would it have made a difference to him? Not a chance, but that's irrelevant. Based on the information he had, these were just a bunch of pushy foreigners who had kidnapped him and threatened to kill him.


Rumpus, you are still ignoring the fact that Belkar didn't kill the guard to escape, he killed the guard because he was bored. If he was actually trying to escape, he would have, you know, actually gone and done that instead of going after Miko.Ooh! Logic and insight! There may be hope for this board yet! And no misspellings, too!

His motivation for breaking out is anybody's guess. The fact that he stopped to take stock of the situation in the same panel he kills the guard implies that he hadn't really thought it through, he just realized he had an opportunity and he took it. We don't know what his plan was (if any) after getting Miko (either dead or fallen), but stopping to take revenge on her doesn't mean he wasn't planning on escaping afterward. He did revive her, but that's because she's the best "playmate" he's ever had and he wasn't ready for the game to be over.

[Nightmarenny]

Unknown to Belkar. Would it have made a difference to him? Not a chance, but that's irrelevant. Based on the information he had, these were just a bunch of pushy foreigners who had kidnapped him and threatened to kill him.

Ooh! Logic and insight! There may be hope for this board yet! And no misspellings, too!

His motivation for breaking out is anybody's guess. The fact that he stopped to take stock of the situation in the same panel he kills the guard implies that he hadn't really thought it through, he just realized he had an opportunity and he took it. We don't know what his plan was (if any) after getting Miko (either dead or fallen), but stopping to take revenge on her doesn't mean he wasn't planning on escaping afterward. He did revive her, but that's because she's the best "playmate" he's ever had and he wasn't ready for the game to be over.
Belkars perception is irrelevent. He would have done the same thing if a local constanble attempted to arrest him.

What the hell do you mean we don't know what Belkars plan was after making Miko fall? It was to be dead. Cause that was his plan. "I die, she falls, Dwarf raises me later"

[EvilElitest]

Right, if she had [QUOTE]already fallen she wouldn't have provided an example. She may actually still be Good (if insane), one evil act removes Paladin powers, but doesn't automatically shift you to Evil. But we KNOW she was still Good up to the second she chopped Shojo, and that's why she is my example of killing something "Good" in defense of something else "Good" being a net positive act. As we confirmed in subsequent strips, reasoning with her isn't an option, and nobody present has a net or mancatcher to subdue her (Roy knocking her out keeps her alive for story purposes, can you do subudal damage with a 2-handed sword?).
She was on the very edge of good. One evil deed would knock her over the edge and guess what it did. She is most likely LN or LE now


I'm assuming you meant killing innocents when neccessary is neutral, but I'm actually quoting to quibble over the definition of "innocent". By carrying arms (which implies a willingness to use them), the guard takes himself out of the innocent category. If Belkar had somehow broken free on his own and then found an unarmed servant, THAT person would be an innocent.
Wait, so for a guard carries a weapon, he is liable to be killed? Yeah.....THAT makes sense. So dispite the fact he did nothing to threaten Belkar, commited no crime other than being at the wrong place at the wrong time and obeying the order of his boss, and happened to talk to belkar his murder is justified? Right..........................................ok then


True, but that's because he assumed Belkar wasn't a threat. If he had any idea a 3-foot halfing could jump nine feet in the air, he probably would have had his sword out and another guard for backup. And if Belkar had jumped out past the guard, what do you think would have happened next? Opposed Grappling checks? Maybe, but that's a big chance to take for a prisoner on death row.
Knock him out, or don't escape at all. bear in mind, OOTS were surrpose to get a trail, and even Miko said so. Belkar can't think far ahead enough to figure out it will be bias. He just escaped because he felt like it.


Whoops, got me there, I hadn't looked at the strip since it came out. But the type of weapon isn't relevant.
Yes it is, because a sword needs to be draw while a pole arm could just be picked up. That Belkar took the sword from his sheath shows that teh guard was ether knocked out or badly winded to allow belkar to do that. And belkar could have hit him with the pommel.


Maybe. Now that I look at the strip again, we go straight from the panel of Belkar slamming the guard to the panel of Belkar stabbing the prone guard. We don't know whether the guard was resisting when Belkar stabbed him. If he was unconscious, then my whole argument falls apart, and this was an evil act after all. We can't be sure, but the fact that the guard lets out a "Glurk!" as Belkar stabs him suggests he is still conscious, and hence could still raise an alarm. Good points, but not conclusive.

The glurk noise is just a death moan. If He was stabbed in the stomach, so if he was still conscious I think he would scream
from,
EE

[Kreistor]

His motivation for breaking out is anybody's guess. The fact that he stopped to take stock of the situation in the same panel he kills the guard implies that he hadn't really thought it through, he just realized he had an opportunity and he took it. We don't know what his plan was (if any) after getting Miko (either dead or fallen), but stopping to take revenge on her doesn't mean he wasn't planning on escaping afterward.

Actaully, we know that his plan was "more dead humans" at the end of #261. That is immediately after the killing, so we know that his initial assault on the guard was not an escape attempt. That quickly turned into a Miko hunt, since he doesn't kill another guard before spreading blood all over teh walls to attract Miko's interest.

We also know he had no intention to escape. He reveals in #286 that he was intending to die and be Raised by Durkon, who was in custody at the time, which would place Belkar in custody.

[kerberos]

Much better because I enjoy ignoring that Shojo and the Gods had sovrenty as the only ones who could prevent universal destruction and therefore must act to prevent it.
Actually I enjoy not ignoring the fact that Shojo himself said that the OOTS was innocent of any true wrongdoing. I also enjoy remembering that punishing people for things done (unwittingly done mind you) by other people ,is not in any shape or form justice, and is therefore not something you’re obligated to go along with. Furthermore I also enjoy having the basic intelligence to realize that punishing people for things like that, does not help prevent the universe being destroyed (I’ll leave figuring out how punishment can prevent more crimes, and why this does not apply in this case as an exercise to the reader, but do say if you give up on this simple task).

Also you shouldn't use words you don't understand.

[Rumpus]

Oh boy, one at a time.

She was on the very edge of good. One evil deed would knock her over the edge and guess what, it did. She is most likely LN or LE nowGotta disagree on this one. She truly believed she was justified, and hence her alignment was still LG right up to the blow. Now, when she ACTED on those beliefs, she committed an Evil act, which cost her paladin status. You can fall from paladinhood while still being LG. Judging by her conversation with Hinjo afterwards and her reaction to Sabine, she still thinks she is LG. It's up to the DM/Giant to ajudicate whether one significant act changes her alignment, or if shes still borderline LG for now. Absolutely insane and totally divorced from reality? Yes. Non-good? Too soon to tell.

Wait, so for a guard carries a weapon, he is liable to be killed? Yeah.....THAT makes sense. So dispite the fact he did nothing to threaten Belkar, commited no crime other than being at the wrong place at the wrong time and obeying the order of his boss, and his murder is justified? Right..........................................ok thenNo, I didn't say killing anyone carrying a weapon was automatically justified, I was disagreeing with the definition of "innocent". I think you are arguing that this particular guard hasn't personally offended Belkar. He doesn't have to. At this point Miko has firmly established herself (and hence, Azure City) as an enemy of the OotS (Dragging someone off in chains makes you an enemy until proven otherwise). The fact that this particular enemy guard hasn't done anything personally to Belkar does not remove his enemy status. Even Hinjo agrees that the imprisonment was illegitimate, that's why he reduces the charges to Manslaughter (in this case, killing someone in self-defense)


Knock him out, or don't escape at all.As I mentioned previously, scoring a knockout blow on someone wearing a helmet is next to impossible, especially with your bare hands from the front. Oh yeah, and you need to win initiative and do it in one round before he calls his friends. If you have a reasonable expectation that your life is in danger (as Belkar did), you have a right to employ lethal force, even in Massachusetts.


bear in mind, OOTS were surrpose to get a trail, and even Miko said so.Yeah, a trail straight to the hangman. Oh, trial. Stalin gave people trials all the time. At this point, Miko had already shown herself to be somewhat divorced from conventional morality (divorce from reality would only become obvious later). If the only thing you knew about Shojo was that Miko was his loyal servant, would you trust him to pass judgement on you in a capital case? Same argument I made before about the legitimacy of the court relative to the jurisdiction they claim.


belkar could have hit him with the pommel....after Belkar unfastened the guard's chin strap and removed his helmet (blow to the nose/chin hurts like crazy, but isn't likely to be a one-hit knockout). Plus, again, a solid blow to the head with a heavy metal object is as likely to kill someone as knock them out (again, apologies to Thief:The Dark Project players, but it just aint so).

Let me know if I'm oversimplifying, but your argument seems to boil down to: Even though his life is at risk, Belkar doesn't have the right to use lethal force, only subdual damage, even if it puts him at significantly greater risk of recapture and subsequent execution. Why? Because the guard is a human? Because he wears a uniform? Because his boss lives in a castle? Because his boss inheritied the lordship of a foreign country? Because he's not given time to draw his sword and prepare for the fight? I'm not being rhetorical here, what makes violence on this guard an evil act versus sneaking up and killing an orc guard without warning?

[Rumpus]

Also you shouldn't use words you don't understand.

Hey, be nice. I'm sure he is much better at English than you are at whatever his native language is.

[kerberos]

Hey, be nice. I'm sure he is much better at English than you are at whatever his native language is.
Yeah, unless his native language is Danish. Anyway I almost certainly wouldn't have mentioned it if he hadn't been so rude and childish. But still you're right, complaining about other people's English is not particularly nice, and it's not something I usually do.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Goddamn people are bloody stupid. Stop insulting each other and run a civilized debate- despite what you may have been told, name calling and insults adds nothing to your argument.

[kerberos]

Goddamn people are bloody stupid. Stop insulting each other and run a civilized debate- despite what you may have been told, name calling and insults adds nothing to your argument.
So... Is the irony intentional or unintentional?

[Shadow of the Sun]

Intentional.

[Pepz]

For comparison, let's say an Dutchman is kidnapped out of Amersterdam by Singaporean DEA agents and threatened with the death penalty for "substance" use in his own country (legal in Amsterdam, punishable by death in Singapore). If he killed a guard in the process of escaping, is that evil? I'd say even if the guard was a work-a-day drone (LN), the killing is tough to condemn under the circumstances.

Now, smearing his blood over the walls to taunt Miko? Yeah, that's evil

Rumpus, a situation not unlike this has actually happened in Holland a few days ago :) slightly different tho :) Dutch producer of xtc got arrested by American agents of (whatever that bureau is, it's against drugs anyways) because ,listen to this, the xtc might get transported to the US.
Now xtc is illegal in Holland too, but that doesn't give the americans the right to arrest people without permission from the dutch government :)

as for the discussion ;) he is definitly chaotic evil, even though he might be slipping into chaotic/neutral a little lately because he hasn't done anything outright evil ;)
for anyone who thinks he's already changed, I'll ask you this, don't you think the Giant would make a crack or two about a character changing alignments? :)

[kerberos]

as for the discussion ;) he is definitly chaotic evil, even though he might be slipping into chaotic/neutral a little lately because he hasn't done anything outright evil ;)
for anyone who thinks he's already changed, I'll ask you this, don't you think the Giant would make a crack or two about a character changing alignments? :)
No, he might not have slipped nearer neutral recently. A chaotic evil character is not required to torture a kitten every 5 minutes in order to maintain his alignment. You need only go back to 11 strips to 420 to see him being concerned that being convicted "only" of voluntary manslaughter is going to ruin his street creed. Belkar was CE when the comic started, he is CE now and his alignment has never wavered in the slightest. Belkar is probably the character with the most unambiguous alignment in the strip.

[Pepz]

No, he might not have slipped nearer neutral recently. A chaotic evil character is not required to torture a kitten every 5 minutes in order to maintain his alignment. You need only go back to 11 strips to 420 to see him being concerned that being convicted "only" of voluntary manslaughter is going to ruin his street creed. Belkar was CE when the comic started, he is CE now and his alignment has never wavered in the slightest. Belkar is probably the character with the most unambiguous alignment in the strip.

I agree that Belkar is CE. I agree that an evil character does not need to kill a kitten every 5 minutes to maintain their evil status. What I am saying that it's been a long time since he's done anything evil that wasn't a running gag :) Last "evil" act I can see him commit was in 409 when he kicked Miko when she was down. And that was after she killed "the crazy guy with the cat. I liked him. He made fun of Roy". Which was my reason for saying he might be slipping ;) He'd best get some street cred again soon ;) (maybe start the looting before all the undead guys get the good stuff? )

Belkar is still the best, evil, 2D character in the strip :smallcool:

[kerberos]

I agree that Belkar is CE. I agree that an evil character does not need to kill a kitten every 5 minutes to maintain their evil status. What I am saying that it's been a long time since he's done anything evil that wasn't a running gag :) Last "evil" act I can see him commit was in 409 when he kicked Miko when she was down. And that was after she killed "the crazy guy with the cat. I liked him. He made fun of Roy". Which was my reason for saying he might be slipping ;) He'd best get some street cred again soon ;) (maybe start the looting before all the undead guys get the good stuff? )

Belkar is still the best, evil, 2D character in the strip :smallcool:
He also threw a rock at her in 419, but in any case 11, 12 or 22 strips (a matter of days if not hours) is not a long time not to do anything evil, when imprisoned or under scrutiny the whole time.

[Pepz]

actually the last time I could find Belkar actually asserting himself as being CE was in 383 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html). So it's quite a while ago :) but he couldn't help doing nothing all that time :) he's been charmed, held by a magical hand and screwed over by that bloody mark of justice :D Not counting the "you didn't tell me you were evil, seriously if you've been holding out on me" remark Miko's speech :)

[Kreistor]

383 is Belkar doing evil? Wanting to cut out the spine of a known criminal and hated enemy isn't evil! Doing it by cutting out the spine certainly isn't generally good, but I don't see anything unreasonable about his decision to stop a replicant in violent ways.

Throwing rocks and mockery are, at best, petty evils. The mockery is little different from Roy's sarcasm, and thus not evil enough to slip someone into a new alignment.

Belkar's big Evil recently was the attempt to cause Miko's Fall for personal amusement. That's true Evil.

[Porthos]

383 is Belkar doing evil? Wanting to cut out the spine of a known criminal and hated enemy isn't evil! Doing it by cutting out the spine certainly isn't generally good, but I don't see anything unreasonable about his decision to stop a replicant in violent ways.

Throwing rocks and mockery are, at best, petty evils. The mockery is little different from Roy's sarcasm, and thus not evil enough to slip someone into a new alignment.

Belkar's big Evil recently was the attempt to cause Miko's Fall for personal amusement. That's true Evil.

No. But being willing to kill your fellow party members just so you can keep their stuff is highly evil. :smalltongue:

And you seem to be overlooking Belkar desecrating Yokyok's corpse just so he could disturb Roy. That's also pretty darn evil. :smallwink:

[kerberos]

Throwing rocks and mockery are, at best, petty evils. The mockery is little different from Roy's sarcasm, and thus not evil enough to slip someone into a new alignment.
No, but it is easily evil enough to maintain his current evil alignment, particularly since the reason he doesn't do worse is probably that he is magically constrained. No one has said that he was neutral but became evil because he threw a rock a Milo, simply that it is (with other factors) solid evidence that he remains evil

[vbushido]

Wasn't this thread orignially a discussion on whether or not Belkar is chaotic?

-----
A cat at rest will tend to stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside food

[Saithis Bladewing]

Any Belkar discussion eventually narrows down to whether or not his status of 'evil' is factual and justifiable.

[kerberos]

Wasn't this thread orignially a discussion on whether or not Belkar is chaotic?

-----
A cat at rest will tend to stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside food
Welcome to the wonderful world of thread drift, keeping your posts on topic is punishable by death. We hope you will enjoy your stay.

[Rumpus]

Rumpus, a situation not unlike this has actually happened in Holland a few days ago :) slightly different tho :) Dutch producer of xtc got arrested by American agents of (whatever that bureau is, it's against drugs anyways) because ,listen to this, the xtc might get transported to the US.
Now xtc is illegal in Holland too, but that doesn't give the americans the right to arrest people without permission from the dutch government :)

Probably DEA (Drug Enforcement Agency). Yeah, I was avoiding using US persons (either as imprisoner or escapee) since I know we're not all that popular right now. I'm with you on this one. Much as I dislike narcotics and the people who distribute them, if DEA agents were in-country without the cooperation or knowledge of the local government, then the guy doesn't have a moral obligation to submit to their authority. However, he doesn't have a case for resorting to lethal violence since he can expect to be turned over to his own government and given a fair trial, which will almost certainly NOT result in his execution, no matter how badly it goes for him. No reasonable expectation of your life being in danger = no use of deadly force.

[Rumpus]

Wasn't this thread orignially a discussion on whether or not Belkar is chaotic?

Yes, but since that has been definitively answered (by the Giant, no less), we branched on to a more fruitful topic. However, if you think you have something that could reopen the debate, please don't be shy!

[Kreistor]

No. But being willing to kill your fellow party members just so you can keep their stuff is highly evil.

Saying it is one thing, doing it is another. Belkar always talks big about doing nasty things to the party, but he rarely does. V, on the other hand, tried to blow Belkar to smitherines.

Look, I am not saying Belkar isn't Evil or Chaotic. He is clearly both. But he hasn't been able to truly cut lose on a real Evil for a while. The MoJ and other constraints have only allowed him to commit lesser evils that are at best disturbing and unpleasant. He really should be allowed to cut loose and get truly Evil on something soon.

I just compare him to Haley. Haley wasn't able to speak for over 100 strips. Belkar is now unable to be truly himself, so sooner or later he'll need to be allowed to cut loose, or he won't be Belkar anymore.

[Pepz]

Saying it is one thing, doing it is another. Belkar always talks big about doing nasty things to the party, but he rarely does.

Well in 383 the final joke is about Nale making a suggestion that doesn't bother Belkar in the least. Did you guys noticed that the point of argument was the fact that he didn't object to the killing the party (his friends, companions) but the stealing of their loot :)
In my book anybody who has no problems with killing their party is really evil :D

[Lizard Lord]

Any Belkar discussion eventually narrows down to whether or not his status of 'evil' is factual and justifiable.

Even though the giant said he was evil.

What would have caused Belkar to change his alignment? The mark of justice? I don't think forcing him to not do chaotic evil things is going to stop him from actually being chaotic evil. He still WANTS to kill people for pure enjoyment (and perhaps now to let off some steam for having the Mark of Justice on all this time).

[Horned]

I'm sure this has been asked and answered, but I don't have time to go back. I get two of the books he's using:

MM2=Monster Manual 2
FF= Fiend Folio

But

BoVD= ????

[Porthos]

I'm sure this has been asked and answered, but I don't have time to go back. I get two of the books he's using:

MM2=Monster Manual 2
FF= Fiend Folio

But

BoVD= ????

Book of Vile Darkness

[Horned]

actually the last time I could find Belkar actually asserting himself as being CE was in 383 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html). So it's quite a while ago :) but he couldn't help doing nothing all that time :) he's been charmed, held by a magical hand and screwed over by that bloody mark of justice :D Not counting the "you didn't tell me you were evil, seriously if you've been holding out on me" remark Miko's speech :)

Pepz,

Nale is the one saying "I love being Evil." The bubble overlaps Belkar's singing.

[Horned]

Thank you, Porthos.

[Porthos]

Pepz,

Nale is the one saying "I love being Evil." The bubble overlaps Belkar's singing.

Actually, Pepz is saying that Charm Person can't force someone to do something thing that they would "vehemently object". Well:
Belkar sees nothing wrong with killing his "friends" so he can take their stuff.
Killing your friends and taking their stuff is evil.
Belkar is willing to go ahead and do this action.
Therefore this shows that Belkar still has an evil outlook.

I mean, he even happily said, "you got it Boss". :smallwink:

All #383 is really showing that, even with the MoJ, Belkar just needs the slightest shove to commit wanton acts of evil. Of course, that's not exactly news, but there you go. :smalltongue:

[Kreistor]

Well in 383 the final joke is about Nale making a suggestion that doesn't bother Belkar in the least. Did you guys noticed that the point of argument was the fact that he didn't object to the killing the party (his friends, companions) but the stealing of their loot :)
In my book anybody who has no problems with killing their party is really evil :D

Which still does not change the fact that he did not do it until magic removed his inhibitions. A lot of people would probably kill Belkar under the same spell.

An example used is "Urging a red dragon to stop attacking your party so that the dragon and the party can jointly loot a rich treasure elsewhere".

Note how loose the Giant is with the spell in V's hands. She pretty much enslaves a Black Dragon. (Personally, the way she worded it duplicates the effect of a higher level spell, specifically Dominate Monster, which as a DM I would never allow.) So whatever nale thinks he has to say, the Giant is a lot looser with the spell than performing a single, simple action.

[Green Bean]

Which still does not change the fact that he did not do it until magic removed his inhibitions. A lot of people would probably kill Belkar under the same spell.

An example used is "Urging a red dragon to stop attacking your party so that the dragon and the party can jointly loot a rich treasure elsewhere".

Note how loose the Giant is with the spell in V's hands. She pretty much enslaves a Black Dragon. (Personally, the way she worded it duplicates the effect of a higher level spell, specifically Dominate Monster, which as a DM I would never allow.) So whatever nale thinks he has to say, the Giant is a lot looser with the spell than performing a single, simple action.

Nale used Charm Person, not Suggestion. All Charm Person does is make you see the caster as a friend. If you're willing to kill and rob your friends because another friend tells you to, you're most likely Evil.

[Kreistor]

Nale used Charm Person, not Suggestion. All Charm Person does is make you see the caster as a friend. If you're willing to kill and rob your friends because another friend tells you to, you're most likely Evil.

Since Belkar has no trusted friends and allies, he would normally not do this at anyone's suggestion; thus, it is Charm Person that is causing him to do things that are actually outside his normal character. The magic is still at fault, because of the particular's of Belkar's paranoia about trusting anyone.

Oh, and you can issue orders with Charm Person. You have to win a Charisma check. That's not hard for a Sorcerer vs. Belkar.

[MReav]

Since Belkar has no trusted friends and allies, he would normally not do this at anyone's suggestion; thus, it is Charm Person that is causing him to do things that are actually outside his normal character. The magic is still at fault, because of the particular's of Belkar's paranoia about trusting anyone.

Actually, when Roy stated that Belkar could have easily sided with their enemies and looted their corpses in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html, Belkar stated that it was a good idea. I think it's more that belkar never really considered it, then plot conveniently forgot it until Nale recommended it again.

[Tredrick]

One thing to remember is D&D alignment cares about actions, not plans you make and never follow through on or idle comments. You have to actually take steps toward fulfilling your evil plans for it to be evil. Wanting to murder your village in their dreamless sleep is not evil. Giving them a sleeping poison so they all fall into a deep, dreamless slumber so you can later kill them is. Even if you never actually go back and kill them for some reason the poisoning is an evil act.



Wait, so for a guard carries a weapon, he is liable to be killed? Yeah.....THAT makes sense. So despite the fact he did nothing to threaten Belkar, committed no crime other than being at the wrong place at the wrong time and obeying the order of his boss, and happened to talk to Belkar his murder is justified? Right..........................................ok then

Yes it is, because a sword needs to be draw while a pole arm could just be picked up. That Belkar took the sword from his sheath shows that the guard was ether knocked out or badly winded to allow Belkar to do that. And Belkar could have hit him with the pommel.


A prison guard carrying a weapon is entirely fair game to kill. Most guards do not for fear of what happened happening. By carrying a weapon into a prison you are telling all the prisoners that you are willing to use lethal force. You have no right to expect that any prisoner, let alone one being held on false charges, will show you more mercy than you were willing to show them.

If Belkar had only KOed him and let him live, I would count it as a Good act.

***EDIT: Checked my memory, not mancatchers, but polearms. My mistake.*****

[Kreistor]

Belkar stated that it was a good idea. I think it's more that belkar never really considered it, then plot conveniently forgot it until Nale recommended it again.

You're... not... serious? Wow, your joke sense is weak. As in, can't you tell when someone is trying to be funny?

[bluish_wolf]

Belkar would have killed the guard if he was unarmed and crippled. What would you expect?

[MReav]

You're... not... serious? Wow, your joke sense is weak. As in, can't you tell when someone is trying to be funny?

Yeah, and see how easily Belkar got convinced to do that same thing when Nale suggested it, when compared to his initial phrasing.

[Sir_Norbert]

By carrying a weapon into a prison you are telling all the prisoners that you are willing to use lethal force.
What a marvellous leap of logic... is it using a Ring of Jumping +20 by any chance?

[Tredrick]

What a marvellous leap of logic... is it using a Ring of Jumping +20 by any chance?

No, it's using actual prison guard experience (others, not my own). Carrying a club, stun stick or beanbag rifle is vastly different than carrying in a deadly weapon.

[Nightmarenny]

You're... not... serious? Wow, your joke sense is weak. As in, can't you tell when someone is trying to be funny?No thats you. Any time Belkar talks about killing he is serious.

[Kreistor]

No thats you. Any time Belkar talks about killing he is serious.

Yeah, and Belkar never says anything funny, ever.

[Caledonian]

There's a reason Elan and Belkar get on so well: they're both Chaotic. Their shared senses of humor are possibly related to their alignment, but Elan and Belkar are much closer than Belkar and Roy, Vaarsuvius, or Durkon.

[Nightmarenny]

Yeah, and Belkar never says anything funny, ever.
The things he says ARE funny I'm not argueing that. However when he says stuff about killing he is serious that doesn't stop it from being funny.

[Kreistor]

The things he says ARE funny I'm not argueing that. However when he says stuff about killing he is serious that doesn't stop it from being funny.

You're suggesting the Giant would never do one thing. I'm afraid I will never agree with that. Belkar is allowed to make jokes about killing, especially because he finds killing funny.

[Rumpus]

Belkar's big Evil recently was the attempt to cause Miko's Fall for personal amusement. That's true Evil.
I don't know, I can think of plenty of CG characters who wouldn't be sorry to see psychotic paladins who abuse their authority lose their powers. [Ducks and runs for cover]

[Porthos]

I don't know, I can think of plenty of CG characters who wouldn't be sorry to see psychotic paladins who abuse their authority lose their powers. [Ducks and runs for cover]

Maybe. But, IIRC, according to either the Book of Exalted Deeds or Book of Vile Darkness (I don't have them handy, so I can't say with certantity which one it was)*, intentionally trying to cause a Paladin to Fall is one of the more Evil acts one can attempt.

Of course, BoED isn't Core, so you can feel free to ignore it. :smallwink: But that's at least one example of the RAW stating that trying to cause a Paladins Fall isn't exactly something the gods would approve. :smalltongue:

* Actually, I can't find it in either of those two books ATM. However, I know I read in one of the WotC sourcebooks that trying to get a Paladin to fall is Teh Evel. I just wish I could remember which one it was. :smallwink:

[Lizard Lord]

You're suggesting the Giant would never do one thing. I'm afraid I will never agree with that. Belkar is allowed to make jokes about killing, especially because he finds killing funny.

Just to be clear, you are on the side of Belkar being evil right? Because I would consider finding muder amuesing to be evil.

Now as to the whole "good idea" thing I am undecided. On one hand it would not surprise me if it suddenly dawned on Belkar that he could have done that, (the dude clearly has a wisdom penelty) but on the other hand I could see him making a joke like that at a time like that.

[Lizard Lord]

I don't know, I can think of plenty of CG characters who wouldn't be sorry to see psychotic paladins who abuse their authority lose their powers. [Ducks and runs for cover]

Nooooo, a chaotic good character would want the paladin to "losen up" and stop abuesing their power maybe, but that is not the same as wanting them to fall (especially wanting them to fall through an evil act like Belkar did).

[Kreistor]

I don't know, I can think of plenty of CG characters who wouldn't be sorry to see psychotic paladins who abuse their authority lose their powers. [Ducks and runs for cover]

[raises his bow and says, "Look, cows!"] Sure, I guess they could exist. I don't know if plenty is the right word, but I guess some types would be anti-establishment enough to want to see someone like ultra-lawful Miko go down in a very ironic way.


Just to be clear, you are on the side of Belkar being evil right? Because I would consider finding muder amuesing to be evil.

Oh, yeah, Belkar's as evil as they come, but without the intelligence and patience to be capable of true villainy. He's an opportunist, but with enough sense to be able to plan one step ahead when he does have a goal.

[Theodora]

Sometimes I get confused between Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil since I don't play D&D...

Can someone fill me in on the difference?
When a character is chaotic does not obey to rules or laws and can reach the extremes of his/her goodnes or evilness. He acts based on his instict, without concideration. Lawful always obey to rules and laws, no matter if they are evil or good. Respectful characters, you can predict how they will react. That's what I have learn so long. If someone things I am wrong, please tell me.

[Tredrick]

Oh, yeah, Belkar's as evil as they come, but without the intelligence and patience to be capable of true villainy. He's an opportunist, but with enough sense to be able to plan one step ahead when he does have a goal.

I disagree with Belkar being as evil as they come. He's too hands on to get involved in grander villainy. He's more interested in keeping himself stimulated and amused than conquest or mass destruction. Blowing up a town keeps you amused for a minute, hunting and killing things because they have green skin keeps you amused for a lifetime.

He's more of the player who, when he hears he can be evil, plays evil and does a whole lot of little evil things early (comics 1-200) before tapering off. Then, after a conversation with the DM about alignment change(following Comic 281 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0281.html), sparing Miko's life is a Good act, especially considering he will shortly thereafter list her on his "list of people I want to kill" to the oracle), makes sure he does something grand enough to keep himself evil (Comic 285 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html) trying to get a Paladin to fall is pretty darn evil).

Having a character flirting with an alignment change can make for some good storytelling. I'm not sure that is where Rich is going, I mean, he could have just gotten bored of all the little Belkar evils of the early strip period and is just not overplaying the jokes and we are to assume such things are all taking place off stage.

[kerberos]

I disagree with Belkar being as evil as they come. He's too hands on to get involved in grander villainy. He's more interested in keeping himself stimulated and amused than conquest or mass destruction. Blowing up a town keeps you amused for a minute, hunting and killing things because they have green skin keeps you amused for a lifetime.
Being impulsive and such doesn't make you less evil, it simply makes you less dangerous, not the same thing at all.


He's more of the player who, when he hears he can be evil, plays evil and does a whole lot of little evil things early (comics 1-200) before tapering off. Then, after a conversation with the DM about alignment change(following Comic 281 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0281.html), sparing Miko's life is a Good act, especially considering he will shortly thereafter list her on his "list of people I want to kill" to the oracle), makes sure he does something grand enough to keep himself evil (Comic 285 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html) trying to get a Paladin to fall is pretty darn evil).
Ehh no, he spares her because he wants her to fall. Not murdering people because it's more fun to make them break down emotionally does not meet any normal definition of a good act.


Having a character flirting with an alignment change can make for some good storytelling. I'm not sure that is where Rich is going, I mean, he could have just gotten bored of all the little Belkar evils of the early strip period and is just not overplaying the jokes and we are to assume such things are all taking place off stage.
I'm quite sure that's not where he's going. Belkar as much as said he hadn't changes as late as 420. Belkar is still evil and he does evil deeds as far as the MoJ allows him to.

[Tredrick]

Ehh no, he spares her because he wants her to fall. Not murdering people because it's more fun to make them break down emotionally does not meet any normal definition of a good act.

I don't buy that was his plan all along. Seems way to out of character for him to have planned that from the beginning. If that were his plan, he could have put himself into a position where she could kill him long before he did.



I'm quite sure that's not where he's going. Belkar as much as said he hadn't changes as late as 420. Belkar is still evil and he does evil deeds as far as the MoJ allows him to.

I doubt it as well, but he has far less evil acts than he did early in the series.

[kerberos]

I don't buy that was his plan all along. Seems way to out of character for him to have planned that from the beginning. If that were his plan, he could have put himself into a position where she could kill him long before he did.
The fact is that Belkar himself explain why he did not put himself in that position before, and thereby also quite clearly indicates that it was his plan all along. The reason he didn't do it before was that he needed to push her sop far that she would in fact kill him when he was helpless rather than simply arrest him again and bring him to Shojo for the trial.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0286.html





I doubt it as well, but he has far less evil acts than he did early in the series.
Even if that is true, and I haven't counted that is most likely because of the MoJ or possibly because Rick has used up the most obvious ideas fro Belkar is evil jokes. There is mountains of evidence that he hasn't changed one bit, including, but by no means limited to, him plainly saying he hasn't.

[Tredrick]

The fact is that Belkar himself explain why he did not put himself in that position before, and thereby also quite clearly indicates that it was his plan all along. The reason he didn't do it before was that he needed to push her sop far that she would in fact kill him when he was helpless rather than simply arrest him again and bring him to Shojo for the trial.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0286.html

Then why does he not say it after rendering her unconscious? No one is listening to him; so why does he not rail about this ruining his plans to get her to fall instead of complaining that he is bored? If his plan from the start was to get her to fall, he should have said something like "Well, crap. I can't get her to fall this way." as opposed to "Well, crap. Now that's not going to be any fun, is it?"

Nothing indicates that he planned it from the beginning or that all his work was originally meant to lead to her fall. The look on his face in 284 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0284.html) certainly does not indicate that everything is going according to plan.



Even if that is true, and I haven't counted that is most likely because of the MoJ or possibly because Rick has used up the most obvious ideas fro Belkar is evil jokes. There is mountains of evidence that he hasn't changed one bit, including, but by no means limited to, him plainly saying he hasn't.

Yes, and I would like to point out I was the first to point out Belkar may be committing less obviously evil minor acts due to Rich not wanting to overplay the jokes.

Also, just because Belkar says he is evil does not make it true. Miko wakes up and denies being a fallen Paladin. Durkon interprets the changing weather as a sign from Thor.

[Lizard Lord]

I don't buy that was his plan all along. Seems way to out of character for him to have planned that from the beginning. If that were his plan, he could have put himself into a position where she could kill him long before he did.

I beleive he didn't kill her while she was uncouncious because he found it more amuesing to have her fight back.

[shadowkire]

Then why does he not say it after rendering her unconscious? No one is listening to him; so why does he not rail about this ruining his plans to get her to fall instead of complaining that he is bored? If his plan from the start was to get her to fall, he should have said something like "Well, crap. I can't get her to fall this way." as opposed to "Well, crap. Now that's not going to be any fun, is it?"


Yes, and I would like to point out I was the first to point out Belkar may be committing less obviously evil minor acts due to Rich not wanting to overplay the jokes.

Also, just because Belkar says he is evil does not make it true. Miko wakes up and denies being a fallen Paladin. Durkon interprets the changing weather as a sign from Thor.

First: What is this? Stereotypical James Bond villian monologue world?

Second: The example of Miko denying her fall is faulty because she is delusional, and the one about Durkon is an assumption that was proven, though not to OotS, false. One thing that can attribute to the decrease in evil acts is the mark of justice, I can just see your response to this: "But just because he can't deal lethal damage to people doesn't mean he can't keep doing evil things." My response to that thought is: "THIS IS BELKAR WE ARE TALKING ABOUT!! He has a brain the size of a peanut and the attention span of a fly, not to mention he did get into that prank war with V(not necissarily evil, but its the best he can do)."

[zeratul]

this is the axact argument we had in my exact same thread months ago

[Tredrick]

First: What is this? Stereotypical James Bond villian monologue world?

Second: The example of Miko denying her fall is faulty because she is delusional, and the one about Durkon is an assumption that was proven, though not to OotS, false. One thing that can attribute to the decrease in evil acts is the mark of justice, I can just see your response to this: "But just because he can't deal lethal damage to people doesn't mean he can't keep doing evil things." My response to that thought is: "THIS IS BELKAR WE ARE TALKING ABOUT!! He has a brain the size of a peanut and the attention span of a fly, not to mention he did get into that prank war with V(not necissarily evil, but its the best he can do)."

Remarkable! You're completely wrong on what I would have responded with. If you have an actual interest in a conversation, here is my response:

That would not keep him from, say, harvesting the kidneys of an owlbear to add to his collection. Or from checking if each hydra head has a kidney dedicated to it (and adding them to his collection.) He made no attempt (on camera) to do anything to desecrate their corpses which seems to be one of the main evils he commits.

Of course, the effectiveness of the MoJ in controlling him is a bit dubious if he does truly have a brain the size of a peanut. He did threaten Nale with lethal damage upon discovering him. If Nale had not cast Charm Person on him, Belakr might have found out how effective the MoJ is.

I can see your response to this:

Tredrick, you are clearly an intelligent and sexy man. I bow to your superior looks, charm, wit, wisdom and raw intellect. Further, I will defer to you in all future possible points of contention between us.

Or maybe not. Hey, if you are going to put words in others mouths, why hold back? :smallbiggrin:


My point with Durkon and Miko is that the characters are not omniscient and can misinterpret the world or deny their circumstances. If Belkar were suddenly not evil, I would see him being in as much denial about it as Miko is about her fallen status.

The Giant once said that if he had Belkar say he was Chaotic Evil people would still say they think he is Neutral. So, if Belkar said to Elan, "Don't tell Roy, but I am really True Neutral. I just like messing with him." Should we believe him?

Really, I just miss all the little stuff Belkar used to do.

[TOAOMT]

Tredrick, you are clearly an intelligent and sexy man. I bow to your superior looks, charm, wit, wisdom and raw intellect. Further, I will defer to you in all future possible points of contention between us...

I figured I'd give you the satisfaction of someone responding with that.

Now my response:

Belkar is CHAOTIC EVIL. The Giant himself has said Belkar is chaotic evil, and we are arguing about a world in which the Giant is GOD. Therefore, I'm right, and I win, in this instance. However, I shall argue my point with evidence.

As to Belkar being Chaotic we have the following Testimonies as evidence:

Belkar: I'm Chaotic!

Rich: Belkar is Chaotic Evil

As well as the following acts.

1. Joining a Barbarian Guild (yes, Barbs can be neutral, but their usually chaotic)
2. Complete disrespect for authority (not indifference, but outright disdain).
3. Complete randomness in his killings.
4. Complete Randomness in all of his other actions.
5. Attacking lawyers who are serving a restraining order.

Now as for the evil we have the following testimony.

Rich: Belkar is Chaotic Evil.

And the following actions.

1. Random murder
2. Wanton slaughter
3. Great enjoyment of wanton slaughter
4. Killing people who are defenseless and begging for mercy
5. Killing more people who are defenseless and begging for mercy.
6. See 4 and 5.
7. See 6 (what? he does it a lot!)
8. Conspiring the downfall of a Paladin (He even said when they agreed to go with her, "Maybe I can make her fall" or something to that effect. So he was indeed planning it for a while.)
9. Planning to sell a young girl into slavery.

And that's just off the top of my head.

Thank you.

[kerberos]

Then why does he not say it after rendering her unconscious? No one is listening to him
Congratulations you just answered you own question. Talking to himself is Nale's thing not Belkars. Of cause there's also a likely storytelling reason, namely that Rick did not want to reveal Belkars plan and thereby ruin the joke in 284-286.


Nothing indicates that he planned it from the beginning or that all his work was originally meant to lead to her fall. The look on his face in 284 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0284.html) certainly does not indicate that everything is going according to plan.
Everything indicates he planned it before hand, he bloody well said that “I went to all that trouble” not that “it just occurred to me with no prior planning” and I've pointed you to the evidence, you seem to simply refuse to face the fact that Belkar is and always has been evil. As for his look you might not have noticed, but he did just get stabbed. People who get stabbed tend to look funny whether or not it is part of their plan.




Yes, and I would like to point out I was the first to point out Belkar may be committing less obviously evil minor acts due to Rich not wanting to overplay the jokes.
Yes, my point was that this is a possibility though personally I've noticed no lessening in evil. Him becoming anywhere near neutral is not a possibility.


Also, just because Belkar says he is evil does not make it true. Miko wakes up and denies being a fallen Paladin. Durkon interprets the changing weather as a sign from Thor.
You're right, him saying that he's evil does not make it so, him saying his evil, constantly displaying an evil mindset and constantly doing evil deeds even while under the MoJ makes him evil. Wake up and smell the coffee (or better yet, read the comic). Belkar is evil. period.

[Rumpus]

A prison guard carrying a weapon is entirely fair game to kill. Most guards do not for fear of what happened happening. By carrying a weapon into a prison you are telling all the prisoners that you are willing to use lethal force. You have no right to expect that any prisoner, let alone one being held on false charges, will show you more mercy than you were willing to show them.
Well, at the risk of seeming to flip-flop, gotta submit a qualified disagreement with this statement. A prison guard who carries a deadly weapon into a cellblock may be a fool, but that doesn't mean it's automatically not Evil to kill him. As written, this logic could be applied to ANYONE with a weapon, including cops on the street ("He had a gun, he was willing to kill people, so I shot him"). I think the key is considering the neccessity of it in furthering a non-evil goal (escaping, in this case). If a prisoner kills a guard as an end in and of itself, that's Evil, regardless of whether the guard had a weapon. If a prisoner chose to kill the guard during an escape attempt when he had a good chance of sneaking by, then it's almost certainly an Evil act. However, if he kills the guard so he can steal his uniform as part of the escape plan, that may not be evil (depends on whether the imprisonment was legitimate and whether there were nonlethal ways to achieve the objective). A KO would of course be morally preferable, but that's rarely possible unless you have a taser or a non-lethal spell. None of the non-lethal alternatives suggested so far have been plausible (other than "don't escape"), and Belkar's odds of successful escape would have close to nil if he hadn't killed the guard. That's why I consider this a non-evil action.

[Sir_Norbert]

I think the key is considering the neccessity of it in furthering a non-evil goal (escaping, in this case). If a prisoner kills a guard as an end in and of itself, that's Evil, regardless of whether the guard had a weapon. If a prisoner chose to kill the guard during an escape attempt when he had a good chance of sneaking by, then it's almost certainly an Evil act. However, if he kills the guard so he can steal his uniform as part of the escape plan, that may not be evil (depends on whether the imprisonment was legitimate and whether there were nonlethal ways to achieve the objective). A KO would of course be morally preferable, but that's rarely possible unless you have a taser or a non-lethal spell. None of the non-lethal alternatives suggested so far have been plausible (other than "don't escape"), and Belkar's odds of successful escape would have close to nil if he hadn't killed the guard. That's why I consider this a non-evil action.
This may be fine as Morality for Adventurers -- "I'm on a mission to save the world!" can justify a hell of a lot, when you stop to think about it -- even the victim is better off being murdered if the alternative is a much worse death at the hands of the Snarl -- but I hope you wouldn't apply the same logic to the real world.

Let's say you want to go to the shop and buy some cheese, and it turns out that the only way you can get the cheese is to kill someone -- that's furthering a non-evil goal, right? So clearly you can't mean that; the goal has to be not only non-evil, but also important enough to justify killing. And considering what killing means -- destruction of a (probably) non-evil person who has their own goals and their own individuality -- you have to be really really sure that you're achieving something important enough. Escaping from prison doesn't come close -- maybe you can argue that he couldn't escape without killing the guard on this occasion, but if he'd remained, there might have been other chances to escape. Here's one scenario, for example: he's just found out he can use the Ring of Jumping. The guards don't know he has the Ring. So he waits until there are no guards around and gets out.

All I can say is that I hope I never meet you on a dark night if killing another human being means as little to you as that.

[Tredrick]

Well, at the risk of seeming to flip-flop, gotta submit a qualified disagreement with this statement. A prison guard who carries a deadly weapon into a cellblock may be a fool, but that doesn't mean it's automatically not Evil to kill him.

Never be afraid to admit you can think along multiple vectors simultaneously. That is a good thing, not a bad thing.

The fact that the guard is carrying a deadly weapon into the prison does not automatically make killing him a non-Evil act. It is the totality of the situation that does. Belkar is unlawfully imprisoned (this will later be admitted to by both of the -injos) on a crime for which the death penalty is in place.


Congratulations you just answered you own question. Talking to himself is Nale's thing not Belkars. Of cause there's also a likely storytelling reason, namely that Rick did not want to reveal Belkars plan and thereby ruin the joke in 284-286.

Seeing as Belkar spends several panels in that comic talking to himself, I would say your argument is self defeating.

Since Rich has a lot of foreshadowing in his comic, if Belkar were planning this all along I would expect a throwaway line like, "This is not what I wanted" or something similar to indicate Belkar has a plan and is not engaged in his usual, self-stimulating, Chaotic behavior.


Everything indicates he planned it before hand, he bloody well said that “I went to all that trouble” not that “it just occurred to me with no prior planning” and I've pointed you to the evidence, you seem to simply refuse to face the fact that Belkar is and always has been evil. As for his look you might not have noticed, but he did just get stabbed. People who get stabbed tend to look funny whether or not it is part of their plan.

Well, except for the fact that I have explicitly stated that I think Belkar is evil on more than one occasion. Hey, don't let what I actually have said before get in the way of your preconceived notions.


You're right, him saying that he's evil does not make it so, him saying his evil, constantly displaying an evil mindset and constantly doing evil deeds even while under the MoJ makes him evil. Wake up and smell the coffee (or better yet, read the comic). Belkar is evil. period.

Of course, your agreeing that character statements are not always true also means we cannot accept at face value Belkar's statement that all his work was toward that end. There is nothing prior to it to indicate that Belkar has this grand plan to make Miko fall during his escape. Devising and executing such a long and complicated plan would be against his nature.

What acts display his constant evil deeds under the MoJ? If they are constant, I expect a nice, long list.



Tredrick, you are clearly an intelligent and sexy man. I bow to your superior looks, charm, wit, wisdom and raw intellect. Further, I will defer to you in all future possible points of contention between us...

I figured I'd give you the satisfaction of someone responding with that.

I just want to put on the record that you, officially, rock.


Now my response:

Belkar is CHAOTIC EVIL. The Giant himself has said Belkar is chaotic evil, and we are arguing about a world in which the Giant is GOD. Therefore, I'm right, and I win, in this instance. However, I shall argue my point with evidence.

As to Belkar being Chaotic we have the following Testimonies as evidence:

Belkar: I'm Chaotic!

Rich: Belkar is Chaotic Evil

As well as the following acts.

1. Joining a Barbarian Guild (yes, Barbs can be neutral, but their usually chaotic)
2. Complete disrespect for authority (not indifference, but outright disdain).
3. Complete randomness in his killings.
4. Complete Randomness in all of his other actions.
5. Attacking lawyers who are serving a restraining order.

I have never disputed this.

I will nitpick a bit, however. He seemed to like and respect Shinjo, so #2 is not complete, just remarkably close to complete.

Also, if all his actions are random, he would be incapable of #s 8 and 9 on your following list. He is controlled by his whims and amusements to the point of near predictability.



Now as for the evil we have the following testimony.

Rich: Belkar is Chaotic Evil.

And the following actions.

1. Random murder
2. Wanton slaughter
3. Great enjoyment of wanton slaughter
4. Killing people who are defenseless and begging for mercy
5. Killing more people who are defenseless and begging for mercy.
6. See 4 and 5.
7. See 6 (what? he does it a lot!)
8. Conspiring the downfall of a Paladin (He even said when they agreed to go with her, "Maybe I can make her fall" or something to that effect. So he was indeed planning it for a while.)
9. Planning to sell a young girl into slavery.

And that's just off the top of my head.

Thank you.

I have also never disputed that he is evil.

What I have said is that the number of evil acts we have seen from him has dropped off and, if he is not doing some off camera, an alignment change is a remote possibility in the future.

Really, I have spent several posts begging for a list of clearly evil acts he has committed since about comic 200 (when I say the drop off in evil began.)

I really wish someone had made point 8 on your list earlier. I had completely forgotten about that. While I still do not agree that he was planning on making her fall all throughout his prison break, it was certainly in the back of his head and not just a spur of the moment decision.

3 is not an evil act. I greatly enjoy a barroom brawl, but refrain from starting them.

9 is iffy. Acts are what matter, not just thoughts and plans. If trying to talk Haley into it counts as starting to enact the plan then it is evil. If not, just a plan and not an act so no alignment impact.

[MReav]

I will nitpick a bit, however. He seemed to like and respect Shinjo, so #2 is not complete, just remarkably close to complete.

Here's a nitpick to your nitpick: first off, it's Shojo. Second, the whole reason why he likes Shojo is because he tells Roy off (who is Belkar's immediate superior) and he lies to his paladins and have them clean his cat's litterbox (which is the actions of someone abusing his authority).

[Innis Cabal]

this thread is also alive and well? *hands out clubs* carry on...just remember that the giant said he was evil, and belkar has said he is chaotic...but don't let me stop your fun

[kerberos]

Seeing as Belkar spends several panels in that comic talking to himself, I would say your argument is self defeating.
He doesn't talk to himself he talk to Miko.


Since Rich has a lot of foreshadowing in his comic, if Belkar were planning this all along I would expect a throwaway line like, "This is not what I wanted" or something similar to indicate Belkar has a plan and is not engaged in his usual, self-stimulating, Chaotic behavior.
You're of cause free to expect anything you want, that doesn't make it logical, Rick does not foreshadow everything.




Well, except for the fact that I have explicitly stated that I think Belkar is evil on more than one occasion. Hey, don't let what I actually have said before get in the way of your preconceived notions.
He's not getting any nearer neutrality either.



of course, your agreeing that character statements are not always true also means we cannot accept at face value Belkar's statement that all his work was toward that end. There is nothing prior to it to indicate that Belkar has this grand plan to make Miko fall during his escape. Devising and executing such a long and complicated plan would be against his nature.
There is no reason why there would be anything prior to that indicating that it was his plan. The possibility that a character could sometimes be lying does not mean that you can disregard anything they say because it doesn't fit the conclusion you want. There is nothing to indicate he did not plan it, there is something to indicate he did plan it (him saying so) and his actions make far more sense if we assume he planned it. Therefore hte logical conclusion is he did plan it.



What acts display his constant evil deeds under the MoJ? If they are constant, I expect a nice, long list.



http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html

Throws plate at Waitress because she won't produce bufallo wings

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0321.html

Says that he would really like to kill something, painfully.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0322.html

Pushes V into the Owlbear mouth (ok V started it)

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html

Expresses approval at Harley shooting the poor truthful guy in the foot.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html and http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html

Suggests with obvious relish that they threaten the oracle for additional information.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html

His question to the Oracle is which of a number mostly good aligned persons (not V and probably not the oracle) he gets to kill.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0334.html

Places killer hornets on V.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0338.html

Says that his willingness to rescue Roy's sister depends on her position on the hotnes scale (not actually evil but clearly non-good).

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html
Talks about his murdering of other Halfling in his village with no sign of remorse.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0341.html

Says that he looks forward to seeing Roy get his ass kicked

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0348.html (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0348.html)
Is willing to stand there and let V be beaten or killed thereby endangering not just V but the entire team and Julia.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0351.html

"he was a better fashion accessory"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html
Killing the kobold is not evil, promising a reward for the one that makes him scream loudest is definitely evil.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0358.html
Desecrating a corpse just to make Roy uncomfortable

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0362.html
Displays a total lack of horror or concern for the murders and satanic rituals.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html
Is willing to murder his team-mates as long as he gets to keep their magic items.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html

Complains that Roy has been holding out on him when Miko claims Roy's evil.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html
Kicks Miko while she's down. Petty evil sure, but the MoJ won't allow any more
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html
Expresses horror that he will never get to kill Miko's horse

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0419.html

Throws a rock at Miko to wake her up and suggests a round of applause because she just committed her first evil act

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0419.html
Complains that he's only getting charged with Voluntary manslaughter, expresses no remorse whatsoever and almost flat out says he hasn’t changed.

There you are, a very long and for a person under a MoJ quite impresive list of evil deeds or indications of an evil mindset, I left out a few minor and debatable points. Also for comparison purposes I took the liberty of also compiling a complete list of Belkars good acts and indications of a good mindset in the same period:







OK, done.

[Lizard Lord]

I have never disputed this.

I will nitpick a bit, however. He seemed to like and respect Shinjo, so #2 is not complete, just remarkably close to complete.
You call that respect for authority? He likes Shojo because of the chaotic part of Shojo's alignment. Belkar likes Shojo, because Shojo disrespects authority.

:belkar: "Dude you order paladins to clean the litter box. You're like my idol."

[EvilElitest]

Oh boy, one at a time.
Gotta disagree on this one. She truly believed she was justified, and hence her alignment was still LG right up to the blow.

I never said she wasn't LG, i said that her manners and personality were on the thin blue line of LG. She just did not do any non LG actions and so would not change aligment. But when she killed Shojo and her reasons for killing him show a very LN (or LE) manner of thinking. If she thinks that way but does LG she might be able to keep her algiment but she acted on those intentions and boom, lost paladin powers. I think that her aligment matches her demeaner now, so i think she is LN or LE. I haven't seen enough of her to be sure, but i know that it could be prove.


Now, when she ACTED on those beliefs, she committed an Evil act, which cost her paladin status. You can fall from paladinhood while still being LG. Judging by her conversation with Hinjo afterwards and her reaction to Sabine, she still thinks she is LG.
Good for her. She thought she was LG when she killed Shojo. We have not seen anything to show her still being LG and enough to make her LN or LE.



No, I didn't say killing anyone carrying a weapon was automatically justified, I was disagreeing with the definition of "innocent". I think you are arguing that this particular guard hasn't personally offended Belkar. He doesn't have to.
Well yes you did, as shown here

By carrying arms (which implies a willingness to use them), the guard takes himself out of the innocent category.
He did his job. All he did was give food to a captive. No evil their. He did nothing to harm Belkar. Getting in somebodies way does not make you not innocent if you did so unwillingly. Now Belkar is evil and so we don't care that he killed an innocent (It is not good under anysituation, but he is evil) now what are the reasons for it? Does he want to get away? That would be NE. But he goes on a Miko hunt for no reason other than his own amusment. CE

At this point Miko has firmly established herself (and hence, Azure City) as an enemy of the OotS (Dragging someone off in chains makes you an enemy until proven otherwise). The fact that this particular enemy guard hasn't done anything personally to Belkar does not remove his enemy status.
NO it doesn't. He is only an enemy to an evil mind. Do any good person (belkar is not) he is just a guard doing his duty. If a English person stoal my car, does that make all English people enemies? NO.



As I mentioned previously, scoring a knockout blow on someone wearing a helmet is next to impossible, especially with your bare hands from the front. Oh yeah, and you need to win initiative and do it in one round before he calls his friends. If you have a reasonable expectation that your life is in danger (as Belkar did), you have a right to employ lethal force, even in Massachusetts.
1. D&D, he can do a knock out
2. He smashed the guy agianst the roof, not with his bear hand. Also, he hit the guy in the face.
3. You can't bring self defense law into here because Belkar is a convict.


Yeah, a trail straight to the hangman. Oh, trial. Stalin gave people trials all the time.
Well, no Stalin would just make them "vanish". Trials would attract attiention and risk making the person into a martyer.


At this point, Miko had already shown herself to be somewhat divorced from conventional morality (divorce from reality would only become obvious later). If the only thing you knew about Shojo was that Miko was his loyal servant, would you trust him to pass judgement on you in a capital case? Same argument I made before about the legitimacy of the court relative to the jurisdiction they claim.
Belkar does not know this


...after Belkar unfastened the guard's chin strap and removed his helmet (blow to the nose/chin hurts like crazy, but isn't likely to be a one-hit knockout)
Or just hit him between the eyes. Don't have to take the helmet off


Plus, again, a solid blow to the head with a heavy metal object is as likely to kill someone as knock them out (again, apologies to Thief:The Dark Project players, but it just aint so).
Driving a three foot long peice of metal into his gut tends to kill him as well


Let me know if I'm oversimplifying, but your argument seems to boil down to: Even though his life is at risk, Belkar doesn't have the right to use lethal force, only subdual damage, even if it puts him at significantly greater risk of recapture and subsequent execution.
No, if belkar was good he would not have that right, as his life is worth no more than the guards


Why? Because the guard is a human? Because he wears a uniform? Because his boss lives in a castle? Because his boss inheritied the lordship of a foreign country? Because he's not given time to draw his sword and prepare for the fight? I'm not being rhetorical here, what makes violence on this guard an evil act versus sneaking up and killing an orc guard without warning?
Because teh guard did nothing to deserve it. And how does justfiying killing the guard make Belkar NE?
from,
EE

[Tredrick]

1-http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html

Throws plate at Waitress because she won't produce bufallo wings

2-http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0322.html

Pushes V into the Owlbear mouth (ok V started it)

3-http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0334.html

Places killer hornets on V.

4-http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0348.html (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0348.html)
Is willing to stand there and let V be beaten or killed thereby endangering not just V but the entire team and Julia.

5-http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html
Killing the kobold is not evil, promising a reward for the one that makes him scream loudest is definitely evil.

6-http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0358.html
Desecrating a corpse just to make Roy uncomfortable

7-http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html
Is willing to murder his team-mates as long as he gets to keep their magic items.

8-http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html
Kicks Miko while she's down. Petty evil sure, but the MoJ won't allow any more

9-http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0419.html
Throws a rock at Miko to wake her up and suggests a round of applause because she just committed her first evil act

There you are, a very long and for a person under a MoJ quite impresive list of evil deeds or indications of an evil mindset, I left out a few minor and debatable points. Also for comparison purposes I took the liberty of also compiling a complete list of Belkars good acts and indications of a good mindset in the same period:

OK, done.

First, everything that was not an action was deleted. Actions matter for determining alignment, not words. A few of them are less evil than what some of his team mates did. For example, he wanted to threaten the Oracle, Roy and Durkon, both of whom are good and at least one of which is lawful, actually did.

Second, I numbered what is left on the list.

1- Petty evil, at best.

2+3- If the feud with V counts as evil acts, I expect V's alignment change comic coming forthwith.

4- Is actually following his leaders orders and makes an excellent point about Ears being able to get itself out of trouble far better than Elan. If you count this as evil, any Lawful players you DM for must fall to evil darn quick.

5- Yeah, I believe this was covered earlier in the thread. A torture bonus is definitely evil.

6- I'm not sure he had to desecrate the corpse considering the horde that attacked the poor guy, but yeah.

7- While certainly not good, being willing to kill your teammates is Chaotic to me, not evil. (At least in the D&D terms.) Also, it requires a spell that forces a degree of loyalty to Nael to convince him to do it.

8- This is a running gag going of Belkar kicking people when others have done all the work in killing/defeating them. I can recall it back when Durkon defeats a bunch of goblins in the Throne Room battle.

9- If taunting is evil, the majority of the OotS is among the most evil assemblage ever. Roy really has been holding out on Belkar.

As for his good acts, you missed a clear one: He helped the dirt farmers without the promise of any recompense. He put himself in danger to help strangers for the joy of it. Yeah, the joy is a bit perverse, but, if put to a Good end, it is still a Good act.

Here is a debatable one: When he lets Miko live during the chase scene. If you believe (as you do) that he was involved in a complicated plan all along to get her to fall, then it is not good. If you believe as I do, that he was, as he stated at the time, just bored, then it is an act of mercy. I still say that the attempt to get her to Fall was an attack of opportunity. If he really was planning it, he would have woken her up sooner and not drank the potion which made him much harder to kill.

He also risks enacting the MoJ when he discovers Nale. Some might call that willing to risk himself to protect the party.

Finally, and this could be a thread unto itself, why does he stand in front of Miko when he knows he cannot do anything to stop her under the MoJ? There is absolutely no benefit in it for him.


(On a side note, the fact that I am calling the leaders of Azure City Hinjo and Shinjo is an improvement from when I called them Hojo and Shinjo. I'll keep working on it.)

[Tredrick]

3. You can't bring self defense law into here because Belkar is a convict.
EE

No, he is not a convict. He is an accused. Worse, he is accused of a trumped up charge by the legitimate authority of Azure City. The guard is a representative of the legitimate authority of Azure City whose duty it is to keep Belkar falsely imprisoned.

[kerberos]

First, everything that was not an action was deleted. Actions matter for determining alignment, not words.
Words helps to determine how he thinks and thoughts and motives do matter.


A few of them are less evil than what some of his team mates did. For example, he wanted to threaten the Oracle, Roy and Durkon, both of whom are good and at least one of which is lawful, actually did.
Durkon and Roy thretened the oracle because they felt (justifiably) that the oracle had cheated them, in order to get what they'd paid for. Belkar did it with no such justification, because he wanted more than he was entitled to.



1 - Petty evil, at best.
Certainly, but he's restrained by the MoJ, petty evil is sometimes all that he can do.



2+3- If the feud with V counts as evil acts, I expect V's alignment change comic coming forthwith.
I never postulated that this was very evil, but I included it out of a sense of completeness. V is hardly a paragon of virtue, and it is therefore not strange that (s)he occasionally commits somewhat evil deeds.


4- Is actually following his leaders orders and makes an excellent point about Ears being able to get itself out of trouble far better than Elan. If you count this as evil, any Lawful players you DM for must fall to evil darn quick.
If he had done it because he was lawful it would have been ok, but he isn't lawful, he just used orders as an excuse, motives do matter.


5- Yeah, I believe this was covered earlier in the thread. A torture bonus is definitely evil.

6- I'm not sure he had to desecrate the corpse considering the horde that attacked the poor guy, but yeah.
Well the chips probably didn't form spontaneously in the nicely arranged bowl, so some desecration must have been involved.


7- While certainly not good, being willing to kill your teammates is Chaotic to me, not evil. (At least in the D&D terms.) Also, it requires a spell that forces a degree of loyalty to Nael to convince him to do it.
You don't think murder is evil? I'm not really sure what to say to that, sure it's also chaotic, but it's definitely evil. Also yes Nale cast a spell, but that one which can't make a person go against something he really believes in (like in Belkars case greed apparently), and even a neutral person should have such strong reservations against murder, particularly the murder of allies.


8- This is a running gag going of Belkar kicking people when others have done all the work in killing/defeating them. I can recall it back when Durkon defeats a bunch of goblins in the Throne Room battle.
I'm not sure something happening twice qualifies as a running gag, but even if it did kicking someone unconscious is still evil. Petty evil like throwing dishes at the waitress but again he is magically constrained.


9- If taunting is evil, the majority of the OotS is among the most evil assemblage ever. Roy really has been holding out on Belkar.
It's not the taunting it's the applauding evil, you might interpret it solely as a taunt, but I interpret it partially as a taunt, but also as Belkars true sentiments, of cause that is debatable. Also he throws a rock at her, which once again is petty, but none the less evil.


As for his good acts, you missed a clear one: He helped the dirt farmers without the promise of any recompense. He put himself in danger to help strangers for the joy of it. Yeah, the joy is a bit perverse, but, if put to a Good end, it is still a Good act.
Well I was talking about the time after he got the MoJ. Still I disagree that this is good since motives do matter. Had Belkar done it out of the goodness of his heart then it would have been good. He did it however because he wanted to murder stuff and the rest of the group wouldn't agree to slaughter the farmers. Taking our your murderous tendencies on evil creatures might not be evil exactly, but it's certainly not good either. IMO the closest thing he comes to doing a good act is rescuing Elan from the bandits. He does indicate a selfish motive namely that he finds Elan amusing, but you could interpret that as an indication of friendship. I wouldn't interpret it like that, but it's possible.


Here is a debatable one: When he lets Miko live during the chase scene. If you believe (as you do) that he was involved in a complicated plan all along to get her to fall, then it is not good. If you believe as I do, that he was, as he stated at the time, just bored, then it is an act of mercy.
Not really, even if he had no such plan it would not be good. He would still be doing it because he found it more amusing to torture her than to kill her. Also refraining from murder is even at the best of times simply non-evil, not good.

I still say that the attempt to get her to Fall was an attack of opportunity. If he really was planning it, he would have woken her up sooner and not drank the potion which made him much harder to kill.
there's no reason why he would be in a hurry (other than boredom). As for drinking the potion it's always possible to get yourself killed even if you have lots of health, and he might have wanted to get to the throne room before the showdown.


He also risks enacting the MoJ when he discovers Nale. Some might call that willing to risk himself to protect the party.Someone who didn't know Belkar. Myself I'd say that his blood thirst overrode his reason, such as it is.


Finally, and this could be a thread unto itself, why does he stand in front of Miko when he knows he cannot do anything to stop her under the MoJ? There is absolutely no benefit in it for him.
Why, did he set fire to the tent in the bandit camp? Looking for rational motives in Belkars behaviours is an excercise in futility. And of cause he says himself that it was not altruism. We can of cause dismiss his testimony like we dismiss Miko's but in the case of Miko we dismiss it because there is strong independent evidence against her self portrayal being accurate. In Belkar's case on the other hand there is strong independent evidence that it is accurate.


In summery we have two extreme disputable cases of good acts after he got the MoJ. In contrast we have 2 clearly evil acts that you acknowledge, one IMO clearly evil act that you do not (murdering your party members), a number of petty evil acts and a plethora of him saying stuff that clearly indicates willingness and/or intention to commit evil acts. In summery I don’t think this indicates that an alignement change is likely anywhere in the foreseeable future.

[holywhippet]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet (I don't have the time to trawl through 6 pages worth of thread) but what about the time when Belkar had his wisdom boosted so that he could cast those clerical scroll spells? Technically it was meant to be part of the joke, but with his wisdom boosted Belkar had a complete change of heart.

[Zonbatow]

Anyone else thinking of the quote after Belkar threw a match at a saki covered Miko?

"It's as true now as the day I started adventuring, when in doubt, set something on fire"

I think having that as your fail-safe pretty much guarantees a Chaotic alignment.

[Lizard Lord]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet (I don't have the time to trawl through 6 pages worth of thread) but what about the time when Belkar had his wisdom boosted so that he could cast those clerical scroll spells? Technically it was meant to be part of the joke, but with his wisdom boosted Belkar had a complete change of heart.
So? The spell wore off and he became his murderous self again. Belkar doesn't strike me as the type to intentionally boost his wisdom when he gains a level.

Belkar's Chaotic Evil alignment may come from lack of wisdom, but so does Elans's chaotic alignment. I also believe that Thog's chaotic alignment comes from lack of intelligence and wisdom.

Of course wisdom is the ability that affects alignment. It is the ability that affects your perspective on many things (like life for example).

[Jayabalard]

Words helps to determine how he thinks and thoughts and motives do matter. Based on the number of people debating this over the last few weeks, I'd say that it's great that you have that opinion, but that doesn't mean that everyone else shares it.

[Kreistor]

Of course wisdom is the ability that affects alignment. It is the ability that affects your perspective on many things (like life for example).

Which explains all those Cult Clerics. No, wait, no it doesn't. There are lots of high wisdom clerics that worship evil entities for personal gain.

[Lizard Lord]

Which explains all those Cult Clerics. No, wait, no it doesn't. There are lots of high wisdom clerics that worship evil entities for personal gain.

I never said Evil people can't have a high wisdom did I? It is also varied by ones faith (and you can have faith in more then just gods). Just because they have a they have a high understanding of how life works does not mean they don't still desire power and it does not mean they don't worship an evil god. In real life wise men would because considered good, but there are few religions (if any) in real life that would reward you with a rich afterlife for doing "evil" things.

In conclusion, Wisdom is a factor in ones alignment, but it is not always the only factor.

[kerberos]

Based on the number of people debating this over the last few weeks, I'd say that it's great that you have that opinion, but that doesn't mean that everyone else shares it.
No, it just mean that the other people are wrong. :p

[Lizard Lord]

Based on the number of people debating this over the last few weeks, I'd say that it's great that you have that opinion, but that doesn't mean that everyone else shares it.

Wait most people don't think words help determine how he think, or most people don't think motives matter? Either way that seems a little off to me.

[Jayabalard]

Wait most people don't think words help determine how he think, or most people don't think motives matter? Either way that seems a little off to me.If you'll notice, I did not say most, or imply that it was majority in any way. It may or may not be the majority since only a few dozen have really given an opinion either way.

But majority or not, it's not a universally held opinion or fact; it isn't really all that useful in a list of his evil deeds, since anything you add under that assumption isn't going to be accepted as an "evil deed" by the people you're debating with.

It'd be much better to stick to the things that both sides can agree on as "evil deeds" and then work from there.

[Kreistor]

In some cases, words and alignment do not meet.

Haley is a perfect example. She presents herself as a classic, greedy rogue. She does this to establish herself in a classic role the party expects.

This is a ruse. She is actually cathering the cash to buy her father's freedom, which is clearly a more noble act. So, though those that listen to her think she is Chaotic Neutral, she is in fact Chaotic Good trapped in a horrible situation.

We have the benefit of knowing that Belkar isn't lying about himself. He's evil and he loves it. Were we in the world instead of looking into the world, we might question his motives a little more and not necessarily come to the correct conclusion about his alignment.

[holywhippet]

So? The spell wore off and he became his murderous self again. Belkar doesn't strike me as the type to intentionally boost his wisdom when he gains a level.

My point is that in D&D your wisdom stat doesn't affect your alignment. Putting on an item that boosts wisdom or gaining wisdom via a spell won't suddenly change how your character acts. To borrow a quote from Planescape: Torment "What can change the nature of a man". It certainly isn't a buff spell.

This didn't hold true for Belkar though, that wisdom boost completely changed his outlook of the world. Technically it was just done for humour, but it suggests that something is screwy with his moral compass if a wisdom boost could have that affect.

[kerberos]

If you'll notice, I did not say most, or imply that it was majority in any way. It may or may not be the majority since only a few dozen have really given an opinion either way.

But majority or not, it's not a universally held opinion or fact; it isn't really all that useful in a list of his evil deeds, since anything you add under that assumption isn't going to be accepted as an "evil deed" by the people you're debating with.

It'd be much better to stick to the things that both sides can agree on as "evil deeds" and then work from there.
Personally I don't feel compelled not to offer evidence just because another person might reject it for unreasonable reasons. Along those lines i offer 435 as evidence of not just evil words but distinctly evil thoughts.

[Lizard Lord]

My point is that in D&D your wisdom stat doesn't affect your alignment. Putting on an item that boosts wisdom or gaining wisdom via a spell won't suddenly change how your character acts.
.

Not quite the bonus to wisdom, but rather the epiphany that resulted in the bonus to wisdom is what changed his alignment.

[shadowkire]

Remarkable! You're completely wrong on what I would have responded with. If you have an actual interest in a conversation, here is my response:

That would not keep him from, say, harvesting the kidneys of an owlbear to add to his collection. Or from checking if each hydra head has a kidney dedicated to it (and adding them to his collection.) He made no attempt (on camera) to do anything to desecrate their corpses which seems to be one of the main evils he commits.

Of course, the effectiveness of the MoJ in controlling him is a bit dubious if he does truly have a brain the size of a peanut. He did threaten Nale with lethal damage upon discovering him. If Nale had not cast Charm Person on him, Belakr might have found out how effective the MoJ is.

I can see your response to this:

Tredrick, you are clearly an intelligent and sexy man. I bow to your superior looks, charm, wit, wisdom and raw intellect. Further, I will defer to you in all future possible points of contention between us.

Or maybe not. Hey, if you are going to put words in others mouths, why hold back? :smallbiggrin:


My point with Durkon and Miko is that the characters are not omniscient and can misinterpret the world or deny their circumstances. If Belkar were suddenly not evil, I would see him being in as much denial about it as Miko is about her fallen status.

The Giant once said that if he had Belkar say he was Chaotic Evil people would still say they think he is Neutral. So, if Belkar said to Elan, "Don't tell Roy, but I am really True Neutral. I just like messing with him." Should we believe him?

Really, I just miss all the little stuff Belkar used to do.

When I said I could hear the response to my argument I meant the responses the crazy people who don't think through their arguments would make. Oh and what do you think a conversation is? As long as I make comments and arguments that are pertinent to the topic of discussion, I am having a conversation. And I am glad that my response is 'wrong on what you would have responded with' because if it was correct then that would mean that I think like you, which would make me a half-wit braggart.:smallbiggrin:

[Jawajoey]

Well today's comic ought to end this debate. Belkar's conscience consists of two Evils and a Chaotic. It took some heavy persuading to get even Belkar's own self-interest to overcome his vengefulness and disdain for authority

[Midnight Lurker]

Like I said in the response thread... he's south by southeast on the graph, somewhere between C and N evil.

[Lolzords]

It says in the PHB about having a conflict in their alignment is a good way to make a character. (Eg. Having a LG person who's greedy and tempted to steal).

So maybe Belkar is CE but he has some sort of conflict which explains the NE part.

[MReav]

Where's the conflict? He doesn't even have a Modron counterpart.

[the_tick_rules]

oh he's CE to be sure.

[Oxymoron]

Jeeez! I just read your horrible illogical posts and I have only two things to say:

To the people who think Belkar is Neutral: Get the origins of the PCs. Belkar killed 15 unarmed people in a barfight (including some barmaids) with his daggers.

To the people who think Belkar is Neutral Evil instead of Chaotic Evil: Do you really think that would make him less evil?

[Lizard Lord]

To the people who think Belkar is Neutral Evil instead of Chaotic Evil: Do you really think that would make him less evil?

Well on one hand a chaotic evil person is more likely to blow up my house for the fun of it. On the other hand, there are much worse things a clever neutral evil person could, and would, do.

On the third hand that I don't actually have, Belkar isn't clever.

[Greebo]

Well there can be absolutely no supportable argument by anyone now that Belkar is anything but Evil. He doesn't even *have* a good voice in his head.

:D As I said in the strip sticky - NAIL IN THE COFFIN. Hooray!

[Brianish]

"It's just us and the Slaad."

Chaotic Evil.

[Gaelbert]

Summarizing the PHB 3.5, a chaotic evil person is motivated by greed, lust, and hate. The lust and hate goes perfectly for V's theory, and the greed is shown in #383 when Nale tries to charm Belkar. Nale originally tries to tell Belkar to kill his partners, but Belkar "vehemently objects" to that. Then, Nale tells Belkar to kill his partners and take their magic items, which Belkar does not object to. That sure sounds like greed. Also, the PHB 3.5 says that chaotic people don't think their plans out very well. Belkar shows this when he tries to make Miko fall by dying. In short, Belkar fits the official Chaotic Evil description to a word.

[MReav]

Summarizing the PHB 3.5, a chaotic evil person is motivated by greed, lust, and hate. The lust and hate goes perfectly for V's theory, and the greed is shown in #383 when Nale tries to charm Belkar. Nale originally tries to tell Belkar to kill his partners, but Belkar "vehemently objects" to that. Then, Nale tells Belkar to kill his partners and take their magic items, which Belkar does not object to. That sure sounds like greed..

Belkar vehemently objected to giving Nale the magical items.

[Gaelbert]

I probably wasn't clear enough. I was talking about when Nale told Belkar to keep the items for himself.

[Fighteer]

Not quite the bonus to wisdom, but rather the epiphany that resulted in the bonus to wisdom is what changed his alignment.
There is absolutely no rules-related basis for this to happen. A Wisdom boost cannot spontaneously change your alignment. Belkar's "epiphany" was for comedic purposes only, and also to emphasize the fact that he took the Ranger class solely for its combat benefits and not for its spellcasting ability.

(Prior to 3rd Edition, it was not possible to take a character class for which you did not qualify by means of ability scores.)

Let's hope that #435 permanently ends the debate on Belkar's alignment, although I somehow suspect that it won't...

[MReav]

I probably wasn't clear enough. I was talking about when Nale told Belkar to keep the items for himself.

Your original wording suggests he objects to killing his partners.


Nale originally tries to tell Belkar to kill his partners, but Belkar "vehemently objects" to that. Then, Nale tells Belkar to kill his partners and take their magic items,

He doesn't object. He's gone so far as to ask the Oracle whether or not he causes some of their deaths. It's just that Nale original wording involved handing over magical items to Nale.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html

Nale: If you see any of your allies before I get back, kill them and bring me their magical items*.

*Emphasis mine.

In all likelihood, if Nale left out the comments of the Magical Items the first time around, Belkar would have said "You got it boss!"

[Machete]

I know Chaotic. I claim Belkar as Chaotic because he delights in messing with authority so poetically. In proving that Miko "didn't cut it" with her lawful goodness. Fighting against a fellow "evil" who is lawful.

[Daibhid C]

Where's the conflict? He doesn't even have a Modron counterpart.

Yeah, I wondered when someone would mention that. I'd say Elan was very strongly alligned to Chaotic Good (well, to Good, anyway) and he has the full set of four. To have two devils and a slaad, Belkar must be much more firmly CE than Elan is CG.

[Tredrick]

Go on vacation for a week and we get Belkar doing another good act. <sarcasm>This is, of course, solid proof he is evil and forever shall remain so!</sarcasm>

Enlightened self interest has lead many a person into the realms of Neutral. Especially if he gets addicted to this good karma thing.

Also, I developed a theory on how a change in his Wisdom score could affect a change in his alignment.

First, you have to remember that actions matter for alignment, not thoughts. This means that the fact he was spouting about how he was changed and would never kill another living being does not mean his alignment changed. His outlook on life had and, if he had lived like he was saying he would, his alignment would have changed in time.

Add to this the fact that Belkar is ruled by his whims and wants. He enjoys killing ogres for the thump they make when they collapse. He collects kidneys for kicks and uses his opponents corpses to skeeve out Roy. He enjoys petty and mild evil acts and does them since he is a slave to his desire to be entertained.

This is, in part, because of his low Wisdom score. He is incapable of enjoying higher, more mentally challenging and fulfilling pursuits. Enjoyment of poetry, the simple beauty of a flower or chess is simply beyond his mental capacity.

There is some evidence that he has increased his wisdom and is capable of enjoying some more intellectual pursuits, but still has a way to go. I give you Panels 1 and 2 of comic 379 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html) and Panel 3 of comic 380 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html) as exhibits "1" and "B" respectively.

Finally, exhibit "III": Panels 7 and 8 of comic 405. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0405.html) In panel 8 he pets the cat again. In panel 7 he chooses a Chaotic Good NPC as his idol.

(That panel 8 argument may be the weakest argument in a discussion that does include someone doing a good deed as proof of them being evil.)

[kerberos]

Go on vacation for a week and we get Belkar doing another good act.
That presumes both that Belkar has previously committed good acts and that this was a good act, both are highly disputable.

<sarcasm>This is, of course, solid proof he is evil and forever shall remain so!</sarcasm>
I'm glad you're catching on,


Enlightened self interest has lead many a person into the realms of Neutral.
Perhap,s but Belkar is not and will not be one of them.


First, you have to remember that actions matter for alignment, not thoughts.

No we don't have to remember that, pure though might not matter, but motives definitely do.


Add to this the fact that Belkar is ruled by his whims and wants. He enjoys killing ogres for the thump they make when they collapse. He collects kidneys for kicks and uses his opponents corpses to skeeve out Roy. He enjoys petty and mild evil acts and does them since he is a slave to his desire to be entertained.
Ehh, no, he enjoys evil acts period, be they petty and mild or major and vicious. Even under the MoJ he commits acts of evil that can in no way be called petty or minor such as promising a bonus for the adventurer who makes the kobold scream the loudest.


There is some evidence that he has increased his wisdom and is capable of enjoying some more intellectual pursuits, but still has a way to go. I give you Panels 1 and 2 of comic 379 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0379.html) and Panel 3 of comic 380 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0380.html) as exhibits "1" and "B" respectively.
Parcheesi and playing with a kitten are intellectual pursuits :???: *head explodes*


Finally, exhibit "III": Panels 7 and 8 of comic 405. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0405.html) In panel 8 he pets the cat again. In panel 7 he chooses a Chaotic Good NPC as his idol.

(That panel 8 argument may be the weakest argument in a discussion that does include someone doing a good deed as proof of them being evil.)
He's saying that Shojo is his idol has absolutely nothing to do with him being CG which is blatantly obvious from the comic.

[Tredrick]

1- That presumes both that Belkar has previously committed good acts and that this was a good act, both are highly disputable.

2-Perhap,s but Belkar is not and will not be one of them.

3-No we don't have to remember that, pure though might not matter, but motives definitely do.

4-Ehh, no, he enjoys evil acts period, be they petty and mild or major and vicious. Even under the MoJ he commits acts of evil that can in no way be called petty or minor such as promising a bonus for the adventurer who makes the kobold scream the loudest.

5-Parcheesi and playing with a kitten are intellectual pursuits :???: *head explodes*

6-He's saying that Shojo is his idol has absolutely nothing to do with him being CG which is blatantly obvious from the comic.

1- I'm sorry, explain how saving someone else's life at great personal risk, loss of immediate gain and immediate loss of hitpoints (falling damage) is not a good act.

2- I see. Rich can stop writing, you apparently know everything. DO you need to enter the oracular trance for this all-knowing wisdom?

3- Motives do mitigate actions. For example, Belkar's motives take his good act and mitigate it from selflessness to an act of enlightened self interest. One is pure good, the other is . . . less pure. Both are still good.

4- My reasoning that it is because of his low wisdom preventing remains unchallenged.

5- Compared to kidney collecting, yes. Parcheesi is a game with strategy.

6- That would be why I claimed it as the weakest argument in the thread.

3-6:

(My point)
(Your head)

I was making a fun, somewhat silly, somewhat serious point about how a change in thinking could result from an increased wisdom score.

[Lizard Lord]

I see. Rich can stop writing, you apparently know everything. DO you need to enter the oracular trance for this all-knowing wisdom?



I wonder, what is your response to the fact that the GIANT SAID BELKAR WAS CHAOTIC EVIL!?

Also what do you have to say about the fact that his conscience consists of two devils and a slaad?

[Tredrick]

I wonder, what is your response to the fact that the GIANT SAID BELKAR WAS CHAOTIC EVIL!?

That I never said he wasn't.

Seriously, have you read any of my posts?

[Lizard Lord]

I apologize, but these make it seem like you were arguing for Belkar being non-evil.

"I'm sorry, explain how saving someone else's life at great personal risk, loss of immediate gain and immediate loss of hit points (falling damage) is not a good act."

and

"Motives do mitigate actions. For example, Belkar's motives take his good act and mitigate it from selflessness to an act of enlightened self-interest. One is pure good, the other is . . . less pure. Both are still good."
Sorry if I misinterpreted.

[Tredrick]

I apologize, but these make it seem like you were arguing for Belkar being non-evil.

"I'm sorry, explain how saving someone else's life at great personal risk, loss of immediate gain and immediate loss of hit points (falling damage) is not a good act."

and

"Motives do mitigate actions. For example, Belkar's motives take his good act and mitigate it from selflessness to an act of enlightened self-interest. One is pure good, the other is . . . less pure. Both are still good."
Sorry if I misinterpreted.

No worries, it is a long thread. Sorry I snapped a bit. Just that several people have put words in my posts that are just not there. I can see where you would think I was arguing he is not evil if you joined us late.

Evil people can do good acts and good people can do evil acts. One act does not change your alignment (unless it is a really big act). Several can.

What I am arguing is that an alignment change is possible. Especially if he pads his resume of good deeds.

I think a great comic would be to have a paragon of Neutrality appear on his shoulder to counter the devil. Balance needs it's fair share of air time!

[Daibhid C]

I think a great comic would be to have a paragon of Neutrality appear on his shoulder to counter the devil. Balance needs it's fair share of air time!

That's a cool idea, although rilmani lack the visual punch of demons and angels, or even modrons and slaadi.

[kerberos]

1- I'm sorry, explain how saving someone else's life at great personal risk, loss of immediate gain and immediate loss of hitpoints (falling damage) is not a good act.
Well when it's done for the long term goal of slaughtering the most sentiment creatures in the future.


2- I see. Rich can stop writing, you apparently know everything. DO you need to enter the oracular trance for this all-knowing wisdom?
No, I just read the comic and discern it (lack of) trend in that direction.


3- Motives do mitigate actions. For example, Belkar's motives take his good act and mitigate it from selflessness to an act of enlightened self interest. One is pure good, the other is . . . less pure. Both are still good.
Hardly, enlightened self-interest is at best neutral, and when you self-interest is enlightened towards the goal of murdering people it's not even an indicator of neutrality.


4- My reasoning that it is because of his low wisdom preventing remains unchallenged.
Of cause it's because of low wisdom, that is demonstrated quite clearly in the comic, you assertion that his evil acts are petty and minor remains factually incorrect.



5- Compared to kidney collecting, yes. Parcheesi is a game with strategy.
So is combat and by extention kidney collection.




3-6:

(My point)
(Your head)

I was making a fun, somewhat silly, somewhat serious point about how a change in thinking could result from an increased wisdom score.
I understood you point quite well, I just don't see any evidence that his wisdom is increasing.

[demont]

[Scrubbed]

[Tredrick]

That's a cool idea, although rilmani lack the visual punch of demons and angels, or even modrons and slaadi.

They could be amusing stickified, but,yeah, not the most visually interesting creatures.

As for any other posts between this one and the one quoted above, I do not see them therefore they must not exist. I mean, if *I* don't see them, it is clearly not there.

Like MitD and those gates.

[demont]

[Scrubbed]

[demont]

[Scrubbed]

[TOAOMT]

I don't doubt that Belkar is evil, or chaotic, however people mark him as being too stupid in my opinion.

Obviously his Wisdom is not high enough to spellacast, but then that could just mean a 10. That would explain why he was beyond average level enlightened when he got Owl's Wisdom'd. Also, he's not stupid, he obviously put a lot of thought into whether he would let Hinjo die or not, and ultimately decided to do what would serve the greater Belkar. I would say his intelligence is probably somewhere in the 12+ range. Also when you consider that he gave up one planned assassination (which would border on NE) to further his ability to randomly knife people in taverns (CE), that's further argument for his CEness.

My 2 CP.