Best Army

[asnys]

Before anyone says it, I know that god-casters are always going to smoosh any army of low-level types, but I'm curious. (Also, you need to have somebody to garrison and police the town you just conquered.) For a given ECL, what's the best choice of classes and/or monsters to make up an army?

I'm sure the playground can come up with a better answer, but just to get the ball rolling: for ECL 1 I would go with Human Martial Wilderness Rogue-1's with Skill Focus (Use Magic Device), Improved Initiative, and Magical Aptitude, equipped with a MW tool of Use Magic Device and various wands. Their UMD check should be +3 (Skill Focus) +1 (Charisma) + 4 (skill ranks) +2 (MW Tool) +2 (Magical Aptitude) = +14, which gives them a 75% chance of successfully activating the wand. Which wands to give them depends on what they're facing and how much money you're willing to invest, but sleep and magic missile seem like good default offensive choices.

[DominusMegadeus]

Housecats, right?

[atemu1234]

Housecats, right?

Handle Animal FTW!

[Red Fel]

Bards. Seriously, just Bards.

They get you whatever you need. Martial ability? They're not Fighters, but they're capable. Spells? They've got some useful crowd control. UMD? They're casters, so wands are a thing.

But the biggest part is force multipliers. Bards are outrageously effective as force multipliers. You could make an army that consists entirely of Bards switching out Bardic Music uses, down the line, like a round (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round_%28music%29). When one isn't using Bardic Music, he's using melee attacks augmented by his allies' Bardic Music, or he's casting spells to lock down enemies to facilitate his allies' melee attacks. It's pure, glorious synergy.

Plus, they will sound freaking amazing as they march into battle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCjkuCJrxq0).

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Which wands to give them depends on what they're facing and how much money you're willing to invest

A single wand is an outrageous amount of wealth to give a level 1 soldier. The best level 1 soldiers are probably Crusaders they can fight low ECL threats all day.

[Seclora]

Bards. Seriously, just Bards.

They get you whatever you need. Martial ability? They're not Fighters, but they're capable. Spells? They've got some useful crowd control. UMD? They're casters, so wands are a thing.

But the biggest part is force multipliers. Bards are outrageously effective as force multipliers. You could make an army that consists entirely of Bards switching out Bardic Music uses, down the line, like a round (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round_%28music%29). When one isn't using Bardic Music, he's using melee attacks augmented by his allies' Bardic Music, or he's casting spells to lock down enemies to facilitate his allies' melee attacks. It's pure, glorious synergy.

Plus, they will sound freaking amazing as they march into battle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCjkuCJrxq0).

Good lord, that really would sound pretty awesome!

On top of that, Bards are pretty good at the kind of UMD tricks that were discussed earlier, and depending on how you ruled Bardic Knowledge and Knowledge Devotion's interaction, they'd have to-hit rolls well beyond that of a fighter of their level. The versatility that defines the class would help ensure that they could handle a wide array of threats.

And with their genre savvy they'd arrive right when they were needed!

[Pyon]

While I do love the bards idea (I really do love it don't get me wrong) aren't they always Chaotic? Even if I am a chaotic person myself I want a lawful army who will listen to my every need. If I have an army of charismatic people it's just matter of time until THEY turn on me.

So what should your army be?

A Barbarian who's named Axe and refers to himself in third person >:C Reinforcements? AXE IS THE REINFORCEMENTS!

[atemu1234]

Good lord, that really would sound pretty awesome!

On top of that, Bards are pretty good at the kind of UMD tricks that were discussed earlier, and depending on how you ruled Bardic Knowledge and Knowledge Devotion's interaction, they'd have to-hit rolls well beyond that of a fighter of their level. The versatility that defines the class would help ensure that they could handle a wide array of threats.

And with their genre savvy they'd arrive right when they were needed!

Then give them cross-class ranks in ride! The cavalry arrives on time!

[asnys]

A single wand is an outrageous amount of wealth to give a level 1 soldier.

They're cheaper then full plate, which seems to get handed out to low-level soldiers, at least in elite units. Especially if they're only partially charged.

[Red Fel]

While I do love the bards idea (I really do love it don't get me wrong) aren't they always Chaotic? Even if I am a chaotic person myself I want a lawful army who will listen to my every need. If I have an army of charismatic people it's just matter of time until THEY turn on me.

So what should your army be?

A Barbarian who's named Axe and refers to himself in third person >:C Reinforcements? AXE IS THE REINFORCEMENTS!

First, Bards need only be non-Lawful. I add that the same applies to Barbarians, and yet they make spectacular armies. In fact, an army of Bards and Barbarians is basically the cornerstone for an assault team that induces pants-crapping terror.

I also note that the alignment restriction is stupid and should be waived. In PF, for example, Bards (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard) have no alignment restrictions. (Sadly, Barbarians still do.)

That said, even if you're proceeding under the alignment restriction, note the following language (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm):
A bard who becomes lawful in alignment cannot progress in levels as a bard, though he retains all his bard abilities.
In other words, they can become Bards, gain Bard abilities, then become Lawful (take levels in Crusader or Warblade, Bardblades and Bardsaders are totally a thing) and still keep their Bard abilities. (In fact, the aforementioned Bardblades and Bardsaders manage to progress their Bard levels through Song of the White Raven.) You can have your Lawful soldiers, with Bard levels and abilities. Cake, eaten.

[ace rooster]

I would say that it depends strongly on the wealth level available. At level 1 with 300gp to spend I see little point in spending wealth or feats on maxing out UMD, as there is not much chance they will have many items anyway. Sleep might seem like a solid choice, but if there are many enemies then chances are that they will get woken up before you can deal with them, so it is actually of limited usefulness. It does burn through enemy actions, but the investment is probably not worth it at this level.

My go to soldier for level 1 would be a human fighter in splint mail with a flail, shortsword, shortbow and a tower shield, improved initiative and toughness *2 for feats. -1 to hit, but an AC of 20 and 12hp make them quite durable. The flail allows them to use trip attacks and disarms more effectively, and the short sword is for attacks in grapples. He also carries 5 pints of oil for use in torches, but will use them against armoured targets and a spare heavy wooden shield. He is well trained and smart enough to know when to fight defensively, and when he is better switching to the standard shield. Against casters he will be prepared to ready actions to disrupt spellcasting.

If you have access to monsters then hobgoblins are traditional, but mostly for fluff reasons. Bugbears would be far more effective soldiers were it not for the fact that they are much less disciplined (default to chaotic). The extra HD and con boost make them far more survivable, and the natural armour makes up for the lack of proficiencies.

At level 6 things start getting really fun. Ogres are famed mercenaries for good reason, though centaurs are very effective fast attack troops. If they can pick up a level then fighter is solid, for tower shields if nothing else. An ogre in full plate with a tower shield has an AC of 26, and still moves at 30ft. Centaurs might be better with ranger or barbarian, as their speed is useful enough to not want to compromise it. Barbarian and bards do however have the problem of not being lawful, which can be a serious issue for an army.

Animals have been pointed out, and can be very powerful, but require a handler to burn actions. Mounts are very useful, and definately have a place. One thing to remember is that there is no good reason to not spend 40gp on leather barding, or 250gp on masterwork studded leather. Hippogryphs are very useful as reasonably cheap flying mounts, great for recon and rapid redeployment of mid level characters, but a bit too expensive to commit to combat unless things are very desperate. Even without proficiency they should probably get chain shirt barding, as things are already going wrong if they are having to attack.

Next thing that should be included in an army is some seige weapons. Magic ballistae on carts can be a real headache; bypassing protection from arrows, wind wall, and stoneskin if the bolts are adamantine. If the operator is able to cast true strike then concealment is not even a defence.

I have to say that I don't think it is as easy to deal with an army of low level warriors as you think. While low level characters will always find it near impossible to kill a caster who will not engage, a single level 10 caster will not find it easy to defend a village against 150 intelligent patient attackers. 150 because the WBL of a level 10pc can hire and heavily equip 150 level 1 characters. If they are prepared to scimp on equipment then the number would be closer to 300, or even 500.

Just a few thoughts.

[Yael]

Commoners with Chicken Infested.

No?

[Flickerdart]

They're cheaper then full plate, which seems to get handed out to low-level soldiers, at least in elite units. Especially if they're only partially charged.
They're cheaper than full plate for 50 uses, after which they're spent. Plate lasts forever.

Consider: How many level 1 guys do you really need to police a city? A few thousand? And each one gets a wand? How often do you refresh these? It's much more cost-effective to just avoid UMD and use the massive savings to hire literally orders of magnitude more people.

A special forces or anti-riot unit might very well have wands, but these are not for everyone.

[Lans]

They're cheaper than full plate for 50 uses, after which they're spent. Plate lasts forever.

Consider: How many level 1 guys do you really need to police a city? A few thousand? And each one gets a wand? How often do you refresh these? It's much more cost-effective to just avoid UMD and use the massive savings to hire literally orders of magnitude more people.

A special forces or anti-riot unit might very well have wands, but these are not for everyone.

Arguably the NPC comes with his own equipment. Azurin with shape soulmeld for blood claws is a good choice for the additional 12 hp.

Cloistered clerics with domain feats.

Incarnates with soulspark familers

[TypoNinja]

I once outfitted an army of kobolds with custom magic items. An unlimited use wondrous item that would cast Kelgore's Fire Bolt. Shaped like a staff.

Yea, that's right. I have an army of kobolds with Staff Weapons.

Jaffa Kree bitches.

[Flickerdart]

Arguably the NPC comes with his own equipment.
Yeah, but the equipment he comes with is going to be leather armor and maybe a nice longsword if you're lucky. The rest of his money will be invested into things like a house, nice clothes, etc.

If my PCs tried to argue that they could hire random NPCs with just the right wand instead of buying the wand for the NPC to use, I would have that NPC present them with an itemized bill for every time the wand was used. Including roaming charges.

[frogglesmash]

If we're allowing monster soldiers any intelligent undead that can create spawn amazing, doubly so if they maintain control over their spawn.

[Flickerdart]

If we're allowing monster soldiers any intelligent undead that can create spawn amazing, doubly so if they maintain control over their spawn.
Just have a bunch of wizards with Fell Drain Sonic Snaps running around making wights. Then have those wizards use Command Undead through Precocious Apprentice to try and control the wights, if you really want to.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

They're cheaper then full plate, which seems to get handed out to low-level soldiers, at least in elite units. Especially if they're only partially charged.

I've only seen Platemail on units of level 1's once or twice and I called shenanigans at the time and made fun of it as we looted them. Partially charged wands can show up on random loot tables, but they can't be produced and therefore aren't available for bulk purchase.

Felldrain Sonic Snap Wizards with Command Undead are probably one of the best if not the best without entering TO.

[gorfnab]

Dwarven Crusaders (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=ejbomniqeac0m3d0s90is0rge6&topic=4963) in decent numbers can be frightening.

[Gwendol]

Dwarven Crusaders (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=ejbomniqeac0m3d0s90is0rge6&topic=4963) in decent numbers can be frightening.

Sheesh! Now put a line of crossbow archers right behind them...

[AvatarVecna]

Bards. Seriously, just Bards.

They get you whatever you need. Martial ability? They're not Fighters, but they're capable. Spells? They've got some useful crowd control. UMD? They're casters, so wands are a thing.

But the biggest part is force multipliers. Bards are outrageously effective as force multipliers. You could make an army that consists entirely of Bards switching out Bardic Music uses, down the line, like a round (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round_%28music%29). When one isn't using Bardic Music, he's using melee attacks augmented by his allies' Bardic Music, or he's casting spells to lock down enemies to facilitate his allies' melee attacks. It's pure, glorious synergy.

Plus, they will sound freaking amazing as they march into battle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCjkuCJrxq0).

To top it all off, if they ever hit lvl 2, find a way to give them Knowledge Devotion. Aid another is your friend, and the KD bonuses will tear the enemy to shreds.

[ranagrande]

One of the best ways to build an army is to take the Vow of Nonviolence feat. Subdue all enemies with nonlethal damage, and then offer them a choice: go to prison, or join my army. Offer decent wages to make enlisting a more compelling option.

Then, when your recruits inevitably turn on you, they can be killed without breaking your vow.

[atemu1234]

I once outfitted an army of kobolds with custom magic items. An unlimited use wondrous item that would cast Kelgore's Fire Bolt. Shaped like a staff.

Yea, that's right. I have an army of kobolds with Staff Weapons.

Jaffa Kree bitches.

Must've been epic, mostly because of GP costs... :smallbiggrin:.

My personal favorite is undead. Little-to-no maintenance, if you control the right undead you can use it to make spawn under its control, and best part is that they can capture supplies for your next bout of undead-making. Plus, with the right feat selection, you can make it so they won't attack you even if they aren't controlled.

[TypoNinja]

Must've been epic, mostly because of GP costs... :smallbiggrin:.

My personal favorite is undead. Little-to-no maintenance, if you control the right undead you can use it to make spawn under its control, and best part is that they can capture supplies for your next bout of undead-making. Plus, with the right feat selection, you can make it so they won't attack you even if they aren't controlled.

It was Epic, but not cause of the item costs. Custom magic item rules break hard on 1st level effects. Spell level x Caster level x 2000gp.... Oh look, first level spell...

[frogglesmash]

One of the best ways to build an army is to take the Vow of Nonviolence feat. Subdue all enemies with nonlethal damage, and then offer them a choice: go to prison, or join my army. Offer decent wages to make enlisting a more compelling option.

Then, when your recruits inevitably turn on you, they can be killed without breaking your vow.

Or you could, I dunno, make an army of shadows. Think about it. Recruitment is faster, mutiny rates are lower, your average soldier can't touch 'em, and to top it all of maintenance costs are a non issue.

[Fearan]

I've always was a fan of warlock armies. Warlock can blast all day, every day, can melee with the Eldrich glaive, wears light armor and even has some utility. Throw in a couple of bards per regiment and you're fine

[eggynack]

The mighty army of the druids has to be pretty high up there, especially at early levels. You get twice as many troops as most other classes, and they're powerful troops at that. It helps that first level druid spells, like entangle and impeding stones, are well geared for big battlefield combat. At mid-op, make them dragonborn desert half-orcs for maximum levels of HP, thus really stacking on the power needed to break through both the druids and their pets, and at high-op you can even go crazy with greenbound summoning. Assuming relatively homogeneous builds, casters also afford you some soldier customization, and that can grant effectiveness against a real diversity of challenges. A druid is a one man army, so I've gotta think that an army of druids brings you to a whole other level.

[lytokk]

Before I read the rest of the thread I'll post mine based upon what I understand the premise to be: an army of identical ECL 1 creatures, mundane in nature. My answer, Warforged Crusaders, Adamantine body, sword and board style, with the martial spirit stance. They aren't sneaky, they probably won't see you before you see them, but they're going to be standing for a long, long time.

*edit* alright, except for the grease spell, that will prevent them from standing, but as it has a limited duration, and as an army I'm thinking of hundreds of soldiers, its going to be rough to kill all of the warforged before some of them start hitting back, esp with the delayed damage pool and damage reduction, and the fact that warforged don't bleed out.

[Flickerdart]

*edit* alright, except for the grease spell, that will prevent them from standing, but as it has a limited duration, and as an army I'm thinking of hundreds of soldiers, its going to be rough to kill all of the warforged before some of them start hitting back, esp with the delayed damage pool and damage reduction, and the fact that warforged don't bleed out.
Do crusaders have proficiency with ranged weapons, or is it warblades that don't get that?

[Lightlawbliss]

Do crusaders have proficiency with ranged weapons, or is it warblades that don't get that?

Crusader is the only adept that can use bows proficiently.

[Extra Anchovies]

Crusader is the only adept that can use bows proficiently.

Which is funny, considering the example swordsage has a bow (and is in fact pictured using it). They don't calculate the non-proficiency penalty in his attack modifier (and he's a vanilla half-elf, so no racial proficiency) :smallbiggrin:

What about Crusaders, all with Iron Guard's Glare? Give them all spiked chains (or if you want semi-realism, give the front rank spiked chains and the back ranks normal polearms), and then anyone standing adjacent to the front row is at -36 to hit against any of the Crusaders. Even without spiked chains (so you could make them all Warforged with Adamantine Body), it's still -28 to hit. That's still probably more than enough, so you could make the front rank all Martial Spirit Crusaders and just have the back rank take Iron Guard's Glare, which nonetheless imposes a -20 attack penalty.

And yes, I remembered to account for the fact that IGG doesn't apply the penalty when enemies attack you.

[Flickerdart]

Give them all spiked chains (or if you want semi-realism, give the front rank spiked chains and the back ranks normal polearms)
First row: tower shields and longswords (gotta hold that line)
Second row: polearms with reach
Third row: awl pikes
Fourth+ rows: Readied action to shoot anyone trying to fireball your formation in the face

[lytokk]

wow, I never noticed that swordsages and warblades weren't proficient with a ranged weapon... wth?

I suppose if you really wanted to make the army more powerful you could start with some template stacking onto them also, though dragonborn is the only one that comes to mind right now, heart aspect probably being the most useful at level 1, but really all it does is helps them with a touch of elemental damage if the need arises.

[Extra Anchovies]

First row: tower shields and longswords (gotta hold that line)
Second row: polearms with reach
Third row: awl pikes
Fourth+ rows: Readied action to shoot anyone trying to fireball your formation in the face

Oh yes. And throw in a few Dragon Shamans with the Vigor Aura in the 4th-6th ranks (constructs can benefit from fast healing, after all).

[Blackhawk748]

I say small squads of 6-8 people, 1 Bard, 3 Beatsticks, 1-2 mages (full casters), 1-2 Skill Monkeys. Honestly with that grouping you can deal with virtually anything and hit pretty much whatever you want.

Edit @Red Fel: Im totally playing their version of Primo Victoria for my next Bard as his battle anthem.

[KingSmitty]

in large doses Half-Giant barbarian armies would be brutal

[Extra Anchovies]

in large doses Half-Giant barbarian armies would be brutal

Half-Minotaur would be, IMO, even worse. Actually being Large is usually better than being pseudo-Large.

[Kane0]

I've always been a fan of warlock armies. Warlock can blast all day, every day, can melee with the Eldrich glaive, wears light armor and even has some utility. Throw in a couple of bards per regiment and you're fine

I second this. Warlocks are solidly if not insanely powerful in large numbers and are extremely good at playing up the legions of hell trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLegionsOfHell). They are flavorful, effective and easily acquired ("Welcome to the army! We now own your soul, please sign here for your eldritch powers and field equipment.")

At low levels warlocks can:
- Target touch AC at will, using either eldritch glaive, eldritch spear or regular elddritch blast
- Summon swarms
- Spider climb
- Darkness
- Destroy nonmagical equipment
- UMD
With no need for rest.

At mid levels you move on to:
- Flight
- Teleportation
- Invisibility
- Better UMD
- Creating expendable undead
- Dispelling at will
- DR
- Fast Healing
Pretty much all day.

Then once you get into high levels they can:
- Polymorph enemies
- Debilitate or ignore SR with Eldritch Blasts
- UMD the best in the business, and craft their own gear.
- Communicate telepathically or via sending at will
- Deploy very quickly via shadow plane
- Complete the BFC with Chilling tentacles, Caustic Mire, Nightmares made real and wall invocations.
Again, almost all day long.

You throw in some Crusader levels on the frontliners and they get very nasty very quickly. These ones dont even need cha since they wont be attacking with invocations.
You mix in some bard or dragon shaman levels amongst every few of them as force multipliers. These can be partial warlocks too since there is a bit of Cha synergy happening.
Optionally mix in some dragonfire adepts with the warlocks for very similar abilities
Binder levels are also very good to mix in flavor and mechanics wise. Allows for hellfire Warlocks for those that arent on the front lines too
If you really need proper casters for some reason, you can throw in cleric or wizard levels and take away some of the pain with Eldritch Disciple/Theurge

Bonus points for races like warforged (its in the name), Hellbred (maximum stereotype) and dragonborn (Charisma! Dragon shaman! Dragonfire Adept!)

Speaking of Hell's army, I propose we use them for comparison purposes. If your army can stand up to them you're doing well.