Best build for an archer?

[pso_zeldaphreak]

I am fairly terrible at optimizing, but I am curious if a Fighter (EK) 14/Rogue (assassin) 3/Ranger (hunter) 3 is the best DPR for a longbow.
Or is the missed attack from fighter 20 that powerful?

[Demonic Spoon]

I am fairly terrible at optimizing, but I am curious if a Fighter (EK) 14/Rogue (assassin) 3/Ranger (hunter) 3 is the best DPR for a longbow.
Or is the missed attack from fighter 20 that powerful?

What is your purpose?

Are you planning on playing an actual game, or is this a thought exercise?

[jaydubs]

I don't know how they compare to what you're putting forward, but here's one thread that will probably give you some useful points of comparison. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?375185-Class-Comparisons-for-Ranged-Damage

[silveralen]

Best archer is a little ambiguous.

Do you want best average damage? Best single round burst? Best AoE? Best single target? What levels matter most?

[Rummy]

Unless you plan on playing past 11th level, pick Ranger and never look back. Whatever you pick, nab Sharpshooter at fourth level. Combine that with Archery Style and a magic bow and you are only at a net -2 to hit for a plus 10 to damage. The ranger
I'm our group calls it head shots. He also has hordebreaker, so I've seen him kill three Gnolls in one round. Also, bribe the cleric to cast Bless every fight. Bless, Archery Style, and a +1 long bow nets + 0.5 to hit and +10 to damage with Sharpshooter. From anywhere ignoring all cover. You will be Catniss Everdeen.

[Inchoroi]

Unless you plan on playing past 11th level, pick Ranger and never look back. Whatever you pick, nab Sharpshooter at fourth level. Combine that with Archery Style and a magic bow and you are only at a net -2 to hit for a plus 10 to damage. The ranger
I'm our group calls it head shots. He also has hordebreaker, so I've seen him kill three Gnolls in one round. Also, bribe the cleric to cast Bless every fight. Bless, Archery Style, and a +1 long bow nets + 0.5 to hit and +10 to damage with Sharpshooter. From anywhere ignoring all cover. You will be Catniss Everdeen.

Yeah, go wood elf Ranger (Hunter). You get good fairly quickly.

[Gwendol]

Valor bard can get good mileage out of archery as well, at least as soon as they can cast swift quiver.

[Person_Man]

My advice:

Low level?: Hunter Ranger: Archery Fighting Style + Hunter's Mark + Colossus Slayer + Sharpshooter Feat + Extra Attack. Probably some of the best low level damage you'll see in a game, though it doesn't scale well.

Mid level?: Assassin Rogue 7/Champion Fighter 5: Sneak Attack + Assassinate + Sharpshooter Feat + Archery Fighting Style + Action Surge + Improved Critical + Extra Attack. If you can Surprise enemies and/or get Advantage on your ranged attacks (which isn't difficult if you're savvy about tactics and coordinate with your spellcasting allies), this offers some of the best burst damage in the game. But its very swingy damage. Also has the benefit of 4 Skills with Expertise, Uncanny Dodge, and Evasion, making you very tanky. Note that

High level?: Warlock: Eldritch Blast + invocations + spells + pacts. Also, its been my experience that non-full casters tend to be boring/repetitive in high levels. Valor Bard is also a solid option and has better spells, but worse at-will attacks.

[GiantOctopodes]

My advice:

Low level?: Hunter Ranger: Archery Fighting Style + Hunter's Mark + Colossus Slayer + Sharpshooter Feat + Extra Attack. Probably some of the best low level damage you'll see in a game, though it doesn't scale well.

Mid level?: Assassin Rogue 7/Champion Fighter 5: Sneak Attack + Assassinate + Sharpshooter Feat + Archery Fighting Style + Action Surge + Improved Critical + Extra Attack. If you can Surprise enemies and/or get Advantage on your ranged attacks (which isn't difficult if you're savvy about tactics and coordinate with your spellcasting allies), this offers some of the best burst damage in the game. But its very swingy damage. Also has the benefit of 4 Skills with Expertise, Uncanny Dodge, and Evasion, making you very tanky. Note that

High level?: Warlock: Eldritch Blast + invocations + spells + pacts. Also, its been my experience that non-full casters tend to be boring/repetitive in high levels. Valor Bard is also a solid option and has better spells, but worse at-will attacks.

Rangers get Swift Quiver (and only Rangers), so that's 2 attacks on a bonus action. They also get Extra Attack already from level 5, so getting it from Fighter is not useful. Overall, taking anything other than Ranger all the way through, or Fighter all the way through, nets fewer attacks per round. Also consider that poison, one of the best DPS bumps, scales best with as many attacks as possible. Though you would need to talk with the DM regarding how poison works with ranged weapons and ammunition, since Rangers get Conjure Animals as a class spell, giving free, reliable sources of creatures friendly and ready to have their venom extracted, I'm not too worried about you running out.

In terms of criticals, they offer good synergy with things that offer a lot of dice, such as sneak attack. They do not offer good synergy with static bonuses (such as from Sharpshooter). The 4d6 sneak attack damage is only once per turn, so it only provides an average of 14 damage, which is less than that provided by even one of your bow attacks (dealing 4.5 (bow) + 5 (ability mod) + 10 (sharpshooter) + a possible 3d6 (poison) or more, for 19.5 + poison damage).

For a point of comparison, your proposed first round would deal: 14 (sneak attack) + 4.5 (bow) x2 (auto crit) = 37 + 10 (sharpshooter) + 5 (ability mod) = 52 + poison for attack 1, then 4.5 x 2 = 9 + 10 (sharpshooter) + 5 (ability mod) = 24 for all other attacks, which is 1 more base, 3 with action surge, + poison on all of them. Without action surge, 76 damage, with action surge, 124 damage. Very impressive.
Straight Ranger would deal: 4.5 + 5 (ability mod) + 10 (sharpshooter) = 19 damage per hit, x 4 hits, 6 with action surge = 76 damage without action surge, 114 damage with action surge.

After the first round, you would be dealing 52 damage per round (2 attacks, 1 with sneak attack). A straight Ranger would be dealing 76 per round. So, you trade (possibly, with a once per rest ability, and assuming surprise) +10 damage on the first round for -24 damage per round thereafter. This is assuming single target, which is the most favorable situation for the rogue / fighter, as that's too many levels to hit Ranger 11, where you get the incredible Volley, allowing you to hit a 20' diameter circle with attacks, which though admittedly strictly inferior to fireball (depending on what kind of poison you're using and how many poisoned arrows you have), is able to be done without any kind of cost, an unlimited number of times, and you don't have to worry about friendly fire.

In terms of spellcasting, Rangers are spellcasters, and though their list is admittedly not as interesting as say the sorcerer or wizard or warlock lists, it is customized to fit their needs. Ritual caster can help offer some versatility on that end, if you don't mind spending the feat. Eldritch Blast will only offer a 3 damage bump vs just shooting normally (and that's assuming no magical weapons or poisons), so I wouldn't take warlock just for that, not to mention you can snag that cantrip if you really wanted to, I just don't see why you would need to.

Now, the Ranger capstone itself is not very impressive (the chosen foe feature is terrible, so + max 5 damage once per turn maybe, if you have a chosen foe on the field of battle, is nothing to write home about), so I'm not saying you should go all the way, but you should get to 17 to at least get swift quiver, it provides a much greater benefit to the Archer than any other option.

The other route to go would be Eldritch Knight, which would give you 4x regular attacks, or 8x on an action surge. Because you can use Haste, you can actually get 5x attacks per round, which is better than the Ranger can do, and it still leaves you with a Bonus action, albeit less you can do with said action. It would lose out on Volley, but gain Fireball (which as mentioned is better damage, normally, and covers a much larger area) on a limited basis. In terms of Burst damage, the Eldritch Knight beats all others with its potential 9x sharpshooter attacks against a single target, and it also has some of the best sustained damage, not to mention providing great AC, rerolls on saves, and other "tanky" features. The biggest thing you lose out on is ready access to poison, though it should be mentioned that if you do have a druid or ranger around to summon animals, you have a non-dump stat int to help harvest the venom, which if you have proficiency in the poisoner's kit (you should as either class, it doesn't even cost you anything other than time), means you likely actually have a better chance of success in terms of harvesting it. Quantity beats quality, though, when it comes to poison, so it will take much more money or effort to match a Ranger's poison supplies and thus damage output. To give you an idea how much this matters, 4 attacks with serpent venom does 118 damage. 5 attacks without does 95 damage. 8 attacks with Wyvern Venom does 348 damage. So, needless to say, it makes a difference.

tl;dr: Go straight Eldritch Knight or straight Hunter. Multiclassing only makes you weaker as an archer, unless it's a dip of no more than 2 levels, and even then it's likely not worth it. Get your hands on as much poison as you possibly can, to take advantage of your high number of attacks either way.

[Rummy]

Great advice GiantOctopodes.

[Gwendol]

Bards can pick up swift quiver as well, FWIW.

[Rummy]

Bards can pick up swift quiver as well, FWIW.

True. But bards are terrible archers at low levels.

[silveralen]

True. But bards are terrible archers at low levels.

I mean.... terrible how?

They can invest in dex and grab a light crossbow. They lack a fighting style and action surge/hunter goodies, but that's not really enough to make them bad. Just not impressive.

[Rummy]

I mean.... terrible how?

They can invest in dex and grab a light crossbow. They lack a fighting style and action surge/hunter goodies, but that's not really enough to make them bad. Just not impressive.

I guess terrible is relative. They are significantly worse than fighters Rangers or rogues. I was considering that terrible, but really that is subjective. Honesty, an elf cleric is a better archer if he always rocks bless. My point is that the OP wants thoughts on the best archers, and bards just aren't in consideration unless you are starting your campaign at 10th level when they can snag swift quiver.

[Yuukale]

I'd advise Rogue 8 / Battlemaster 12.

3 attacks (6 on action surge), assassinate on the first round and battlemaster maneuver dice. That oughta hurt.

Course, he doesn't have an Eldritch Knight versatility, but I bet this one's the best "non-magical consistent single-target damage dealing" archer.

[odigity]

I'd advise Rogue 8 / Battlemaster 12.

4 attacks (8 on action surge), assassinate on the first round and battlemaster maneuver dice. That oughta hurt.

Course, he doesn't have an Eldritch Knight versatility, but I bet this one's the best "non-magical consistent single-target damage dealing" archer.

How'd you get 4 attacks? I see 3.

[Yuukale]

because I'm a retard that did things afb. Thanks for the correction, man. Just edited my mistake there.

[odigity]

Assassinate is pretty sweet with ranged attacks. I think it would be sick to have a Rogue dip Warlock (or vice versa) to use Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Hex + Assassinate. Choose Dex ability when casting Hex on your target to give them disadvantage on their Init roll to get full two rounds of EB with four blasts each with Sneak Attack and Hex damage on top... OMG the maths.

If you don't care about optimizing for early/mid game, versatility, or sanity, and just wanted to blow out your surprise nova:

2 levels of Warlock: Hex, Eldritch Blast, Agonizing Blast
2 levels of Fighter: double attacks in first round
4 levels of Sorcerer: Quicken metamagic and 4 Sorcery Points to cover both rounds
12 levels of Assassin Rogue: 6d6 Sneak Attack, Assassinate

Round 1 (Surprise!)

Action (normal): EB
Action (Surge): EB
Bonus action: Quickened EB

Round 2 (if you beat their init)

Action (normal): EB
Bonus action: Quickened EB

That's 5x (4 rays * ((2d10 force + 2d6 necro + 12d6 SA) + 5))...
That's 5x (4 rays * ((11avg force + 7avg necro + 42avg SA) + 5))...
That's 5x (4 rays * 65)...
That's 5x 260...
That's 1300avg dmg.

(And you still have four feats.)

EDIT: Just realized you could make do with three levels of Sorcerer because you can convert a slot to points to get that second Quickened EB. You'd lose a feat, but gain another 1d6 Sneak Attack if you put it in Rogue instead.

EDIT: Brain fart. I counted sneak attack on more than one hit per turn AND I forgot sneak attack has to be done with a weapon, not spell. Disregard this entire post.

[odigity]

At least I provided an interesting analysis of why Sneak Attack isn't allowed to work with spell attacks. :)

[MaxWilson]

At least I provided an interesting analysis of why Sneak Attack isn't allowed to work with spell attacks. :)

Plus, you used your bonus action in the surprise round for Quickened EB and yet still counted Hex as part of your damage. Converting a slot to sorcery points also takes a bonus action IIRC.

[odigity]

Plus, you used your bonus action in the surprise round for Quickened EB and yet still counted Hex as part of your damage. Converting a slot to sorcery points also takes a bonus action IIRC.

You can do both of those things (convert slot, cast Hex) prior to combat starting, since you're an assassin and it doesn't start till you decide to start shooting. In fact, you have to in order to get the penalty to init benefit of Hex. I love using that when the opportunity presents itself. Value city.

[MaxWilson]

You can do both of those things (convert slot, cast Hex) prior to combat starting, since you're an assassin and it doesn't start till you decide to start shooting. In fact, you have to in order to get the penalty to init benefit of Hex. I love using that when the opportunity presents itself. Value city.

I don't think a 3rd level sorcerer can go above 3 sorcery points, which means they can't do 2 Quickened EBs in a row without stopping to convert spells to sorcery points in between. I'm AFB so I may be wrong about that, but it would be kind of weird to exceed your normal maximum and I don't think it would be allowed.

[Vogonjeltz]

At least I provided an interesting analysis of why Sneak Attack isn't allowed to work with spell attacks. :)

I don't think it's a good idea to rely on many disparate classes (Fighter/Sorcerer/Warlock/Rogue?!) especially where the attack styles in question rely on high ability scores from multiple stats (Dex for ranged attacks, Cha for EB, Con to not die).

Also, Metamagic doesn't work on Cantrips, it only works on Spells.

[MaxWilson]

Also, Metamagic doesn't work on Cantrips, it only works on Spells.

Cantrips are spells. This is why Metamagic explicitly mentions sorcery point costs for cantrips, e.g. in Twinned Spell.

[Vogonjeltz]

Cantrips are spells. This is why Metamagic explicitly mentions sorcery point costs for cantrips, e.g. in Twinned Spell.

Wow, good to know. I had thought they were differentiated for some reason. (Probably the EK ability text)

[odigity]

I don't think a 3rd level sorcerer can go above 3 sorcery points, which means they can't do 2 Quickened EBs in a row without stopping to convert spells to sorcery points in between. I'm AFB so I may be wrong about that, but it would be kind of weird to exceed your normal maximum and I don't think it would be allowed.

No, you're right.

[Yuukale]

The Warlock/Sorcerer (/Fighter/Rogue) build is awesome, but I believe that the OP asked for longbow damage.

I don't want to be a douche but, perhaps we could steer the conversation a bit away from non-longbow attacks?

[Yagyujubei]

The Warlock/Sorcerer (/Fighter/Rogue) build is awesome, but I believe that the OP asked for longbow damage.

I don't want to be a douche but, perhaps we could steer the conversation a bit away from non-longbow attacks?

indeed, ppl seem to forget the "Archer" in the OP. if you want the best long range "Sniper" then you cant beat EB cheese, but this isn't the place for that.

as for my 2 cents on the topic. I've seen first hand how ridiculously strong ranger is at low levels. the ranger in my group (lvl 7 now) DUMPS on the dps of the rest of the group. granted our DM was dumb enough to give him a +1 bow and 1d4 poisoned arrows. and he has a magical cat that has a few spells one of which being bless, and 20 Dex already. anyway his Dps on any target is something like...

3d8+2d6+2d4+30 for any given attack. and with +10 and 1d4 for attack and frequent advantage, he rarely ever misses.

as for a full lvl 20 "archer" I think bard is the best choice, the DPS isnt the highest (although it's close) but you really can't overstate the effectiveness of all the spells you'll be bringing to the table swift quivers gonna get you 4 attacks per turn, snag hex or hunters mark for the 4d6 and you're golden.

[Yuukale]

On a Fighter (EK) 17/ Rogue 3 I get:

4 Attacks (Regular+Extra+Haste) + 4 again on the first round due to Action Surge for a total of: 8d8 + 80 + 4d6 SA
Once again on the second round because I have 2 Action Surges.

Round-by-round it would be 4d8+40+2d6.

He also has a lot of spell versatility.

I rectify my earlier post. This one seems to be the top non-magical* damage dealer when it comes to longbows

*non-magical as in "the attacks come from the bow, not from eldritch bolts or fireballs or..."

Can someone top it off?

[MaxWilson]

indeed, ppl seem to forget the "Archer" in the OP. if you want the best long range "Sniper" then you cant beat EB cheese, but this isn't the place for that.

Actually, at long range, Longbow outclasses EB anyway. 600' for Longbow, 120' for EB unless you take both Spell Sniper and Eldritch Spear--and even if you do that, you still lose out on the Hex damage and so you wind up doing only 10.5 points of damage per shot. In contrast, Sharpshooter and Archery are the only things a fighter needs in order to rain down 20 HP of damage per shot, 2 to 9 times per round (depending on levels, Haste, and action surge).

[Rummy]

indeed, ppl seem to forget the "Archer" in the OP. if you want the best long range "Sniper" then you cant beat EB cheese, but this isn't the place for that.

as for my 2 cents on the topic. I've seen first hand how ridiculously strong ranger is at low levels. the ranger in my group (lvl 7 now) DUMPS on the dps of the rest of the group. granted our DM was dumb enough to give him a +1 bow and 1d4 poisoned arrows. and he has a magical cat that has a few spells one of which being bless, and 20 Dex already. anyway his Dps on any target is something like...

3d8+2d6+2d4+30 for any given attack. and with +10 and 1d4 for attack and frequent advantage, he rarely ever misses.

as for a full lvl 20 "archer" I think bard is the best choice, the DPS isnt the highest (although it's close) but you really can't overstate the effectiveness of all the spells you'll be bringing to the table swift quivers gonna get you 4 attacks per turn, snag hex or hunters mark for the 4d6 and you're golden.

Swift quiver and hunters Mark/hex both require concentration

[SaibenLocke]

What I would choose.

Wood Elf Fighter BM 11, Rogue 7, Ranger 2

You get 3 attacks, action surge, assassinate, 2 fighting styles, superiority die. I'd grab Fog Cloud as one your first lvl spell. Which will allow you to hide from everything that doesn't have truesight. Grant it in a limited area, but you could hide fairly easy with a +15 to stealth using expertise. Most things won't even come close to seeing you unless the stumble on you.

Another variant was Cleris with War domain. If you get the drop on your enemy then it would give you another auto crit as a bonus action.

[Yuukale]

My, that's huge. I haven't noticed this.

So... Eldritch Knight 13/ Rogue 5/ War Cleric 2

3 attacks + haste + war domain = whopping 5 attacks doubling on action surge.
With surprise crit, that's a truckload of damage.

of course, the cleric extra attack is limited and daily but with a 14 wisdom that's at least 2/day.

[Yagyujubei]

Swift quiver and hunters Mark/hex both require concentration

true, but swift quiver can't be up all the time, so hex is another reliable source of damage. plus it's very useful for giving you "advantage" for your save and suck spells

[GiantOctopodes]

My, that's huge. I haven't noticed this.

So... Eldritch Knight 13/ Rogue 5/ War Cleric 2

3 attacks + haste + war domain = whopping 5 attacks doubling on action surge.
With surprise crit, that's a truckload of damage.

of course, the cleric extra attack is limited and daily but with a 14 wisdom that's at least 2/day.

The big thing about that is your priority stats would be Int, Dex, Wis, and Con, which is a tall order, so you'd suffer a bit on being very MAD. Also note that the doubling on action surge is 3 (attack action) + 3 (attack action from action surge) + 1 (haste action granting one attack) + War Domain (bonus action, one weapon attack). Only one of those 8 attacks would be a sneak attack (sneak attack can only apply once per turn, regardless of the number of attacks, or whether it's an attack or bonus attack), so though they would all auto-crit, without a significant source of added weapon damage, it's a total bonus of +21 (sneak attack crit) from that, and +4.5 from the added weapon die rolls. Certainly not insignificant, an added 50+ damage is always nice, but as indicated it is only once per day, and the "generic" fighter (with 4 base attacks) gets more on an action surge still (4 + 4 + haste = 9), gets the same 5 per round thereafter (more once the War domain attacks run dry) and can action surge twice per short rest (so an additional 5 attacks over the aforementioned build by round 2), so for all combats that last longer than 1 round (including the one on which the aforementioned character goes nova, to say nothing of future combats) the straight Eldritch Knight will do more damage, not to mention not relying on as many attributes.

Still, not a bad build for absolutely assassinating people, as its first round nova potential is not bad. I'm just saying it's more useful for theorycrafting than for actually playing. But please don't think that's a knock- I love theorycrafting.

[Yuukale]

My bad on the number of attacks. I must say, though, that Int isn't a relevant stat for this character.

With the standard 27 point-buy I have:

Str 10
Dex 15+2 (wood elf)
Con 14

Int 10
Wis 14+1 (Wood elf)
Cha 8

more than enough to rock this Rogue-Fighter-Cleric. But yeah, I'm starting to think that EK 20 offers more consistent damage over any Fighter-Multiclass combination.

(I would slightly favor Rogue 3 on account of stealthiness/skill use, but that's my personal preference)

[MaxWilson]

true, but swift quiver can't be up all the time, so hex is another reliable source of damage. plus it's very useful for giving you "advantage" for your save and suck spells

Relatively few spells are resisted by ability checks rather than saves. Hex (strength) will help you keep a guy entangled longer in Webs or Everard's Black Tentacles, but Hex (dexterity) won't make him fail the save vs. Web in the first place.

[silveralen]

Relatively few spells are resisted by ability checks rather than saves. Hex (strength) will help you keep a guy entangled longer in Webs or Everard's Black Tentacles, but Hex (dexterity) won't make him fail the save vs. Web in the first place.

Do saves not count as a subset of ability checks?

[Greybones]

Do saves not count as a subset of ability checks?


No, they're treated as a separate type of roll from ability checks. "Ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws are the three main kinds of d20 rolls, forming the core of the rules of the game.", from page 7 of the PHB.

[Giant2005]

Actually, at long range, Longbow outclasses EB anyway. 600' for Longbow, 120' for EB unless you take both Spell Sniper and Eldritch Spear--and even if you do that, you still lose out on the Hex damage and so you wind up doing only 10.5 points of damage per shot. In contrast, Sharpshooter and Archery are the only things a fighter needs in order to rain down 20 HP of damage per shot, 2 to 9 times per round (depending on levels, Haste, and action surge).

Yes but a Warlock/Sorcerer can fire twice as far as a Longbow and if that range isn't needed, fire 8-12 times per round far more reliably than a Fighter could fire 8-10.

[MaxWilson]

Yes but a Warlock/Sorcerer can fire twice as far as a Longbow and if that range isn't needed, fire 8-12 times per round far more reliably than a Fighter could fire 8-10.

Counting attacks per round is the wrong metric when the fighter is doing twice as much damage per hit.

You're talking here about a hypothetical Warlock/Sorcerer with 1200' range due to taking the Eldritch Spear invocation, Spell Sniper Feat, and the Distant Spell metamagic (or whatever it's called) who forgoes other invocations like Repelling Blast and spends sorcery points on every single attack. That's a heavy investment compared to the Fighter simply dropping one of his seven feats on Sharpshooter so let's see what he gets out of it:

At 1200' range, the warlock/sorcerer can spend 1 sorcery point (IIRC) to do 4x (hit chance at +11) * 10.5 points of damage to the target. That's kind of a meh use of a sorcery point, but okay, it's better than the 0 damage the fighter can do at that range.

At 90 to 600' range, the warlock/sorcerer can switch to Quickened EB to do 8x (hit chance at +11) * 10.5 points of damage to the target. The fighter can do 4x (hit chance at +8) * 19.5 points of damage to the target, or if he's cast Magic Weapon he can do 4x (hit chance at +10) * 21.5 points of damage. He's doing about as much damage as the sorcerer without spending any sorcery points or an action surge. If he wants to action surge, he can double his damage output for one or two rounds.

Additionally, the fighter has a better AC than the warlock and so will have a better HP loss ratio in an archery duel.

At less than 90', the warlock starts to catch up because Hex comes into play, although it has to be balanced with Quickening because both take your bonus action.

I am not suggesting that warlocks make bad long-range snipers. They are really quite good at it for a minimal investment. But they are better at close range, or at extreme long range for an extremely specialized build which does moderate damage at a cost of 1 sorcery point per attack.

[Vogonjeltz]

more than enough to rock this Rogue-Fighter-Cleric. But yeah, I'm starting to think that EK 20 offers more consistent damage over any Fighter-Multiclass combination.

(I would slightly favor Rogue 3 on account of stealthiness/skill use, but that's my personal preference)

I'd personally prefer Champion Fighter 20, with a teammate who casts Haste on them. That's 5 attacks per round each one with a crit range of 18-20. The damage is more sustained, versus the burst ability of the Battlemaster.

[Yagyujubei]

Relatively few spells are resisted by ability checks rather than saves. Hex (strength) will help you keep a guy entangled longer in Webs or Everard's Black Tentacles, but Hex (dexterity) won't make him fail the save vs. Web in the first place.

damnit >< i always forget that. it's still useful in my session though because my DM is grapple crazy. like 80% of what we fight goes straight fro the grapple lol.

[Yuukale]

I'd personally prefer Champion Fighter 20, with a teammate who casts Haste on them. That's 5 attacks per round each one with a crit range of 18-20. The damage is more sustained, versus the burst ability of the Battlemaster.

EK has bit more versatility and doesn't rely on partners (all based on hypothetical scenarios, I admit)

Also, consider that Battlemaster has some utility besides the burst capability.

[Gwendol]

EK has bit more versatility and doesn't rely on partners (all based on hypothetical scenarios, I admit)

Also, consider that Battlemaster has some utility besides the burst capability.

Archer ranger looks solid to me: Against a single foe, it's just two attacks + Hail of Thorns (6d10, half damage on save per hit). If it's a cluster of foes however, damage and number of attacks goes through the roof, since HoT is an area attack, volley allows for attacking once against every target in a 10' radius, +1 attack from horde breaker.

[Yuukale]

I'm away from books now, but how would the archer ranger fare in single target dmg? Is it so diff from the fighter?

[Gwendol]

No, not much different. Ranger is better until around level 10 after which the fighter tends to do a little better.
The difference between the classes is when multiple targets are present, since then the ranger is vastly superior.

[MaxWilson]

I'm away from books now, but how would the archer ranger fare in single target dmg? Is it so diff from the fighter?

The main difference is that the fighter (Eldritch Knight) is twice as mobile as the ranger due to Expeditious Retreat access. Oh, and he has better spike damage due to Action Surge, but in my experience spike damage isn't all that reliable anyway because important fights tend to have way more enemy HP than you can spike in one round or even six.

[Vogonjeltz]

EK has bit more versatility and doesn't rely on partners (all based on hypothetical scenarios, I admit)

Also, consider that Battlemaster has some utility besides the burst capability.

I agree, all true. I'm just considering the end result if the Champion gets that haste, their damage output over the long haul should be higher.

[Gwendol]

The main difference is that the fighter (Eldritch Knight) is twice as mobile as the ranger due to Expeditious Retreat access. Oh, and he has better spike damage due to Action Surge, but in my experience spike damage isn't all that reliable anyway because important fights tend to have way more enemy HP than you can spike in one round or even six.

While more mobile, the ranger is naturally more stealthy. I guess it's a draw? Action surge is awesome, but a limited resource, while the ranger can horde break or volley shoot all day.

[MaxWilson]

While more mobile, the ranger is naturally more stealthy. I guess it's a draw? Action surge is awesome, but a limited resource, while the ranger can horde break or volley shoot all day.

Yeah, volley shot is nice against close-packed hordes. Stealth only works once per battle though, whereas Expeditious Retreat works for 10 minutes on only a bonus action. You can shoot + Dash away retreat every single round and never get caught unless their movement is absurdly high.

[Gwendol]

If you can hide in plain sight you should be able to do it again, no? High level rangers can Vanish, unless I'm mistaken.

[MaxWilson]

If you can hide in plain sight you should be able to do it again, no? High level rangers can Vanish, unless I'm mistaken.

Hide In Plain Sight is an out-of-combat action: it takes 1 minute to camouflage yourself and then you get a +10 on Stealth checks while you're lurking there on the wall.

I had overlooked Vanish (Hide-as-a-bonus-action at level 14). So yeah, high-level Rangers can use Stealth in combat as effectively as rogues, given appropriate cover. I imagine this works best in cluttered terrain where you can dart behind a bush to break line of sight and then Vanish. (I interpret "Hide during combat" as "change positions while your enemy isn't looking, so he winds up looking in the wrong place.")

[Gwendol]

Yeah, the camouflage ability isn't particularly impressive. I was more thinking about combining vanish with racial/feat abilities.

[pso_zeldaphreak]

Wow, I don't even remember making this thread - I was about to make a new one on this topic.

In the case of the hunter ranger, is Colossus Slayer generally considered less useful than Horde Breaker?

[Demonic Spoon]

I don't think that's a question that can be answered without knowing what kinds of encounters your DM is going to create.

[MaxWilson]

Wow, I don't even remember making this thread - I was about to make a new one on this topic.

In the case of the hunter ranger, is Colossus Slayer generally considered less useful than Horde Breaker?

Horde Breaker is a separate attack, with its own damage bonus and opportunity for Sharpshooter tricks. Colossus slayer is just a situational 1d8. I would never take Colossus Slayer unless I expected only to fight giants and dragons.

[Gwendol]

Wow, I don't even remember making this thread - I was about to make a new one on this topic.

In the case of the hunter ranger, is Colossus Slayer generally considered less useful than Horde Breaker?

Colossus slayer lets you deal 1d8 extra damage per turn vs enemies that have already taken damage. It can be useful the first few levels, especially after you gain your second attack. However, as an archer you expect to act before your enemies a lot of the time, and so the ability goes somewhat against that.
Horde breaker lets you attack one more time if enemies are clustered close together. I like this ability better. Yes, it's still situational, but when it happens it's more valuable to make an extra attack than just do a little more damage.

EDIT: Max, Giant Killer is the ability against Large or larger creatures.

[MaxWilson]

Colossus slayer lets you deal 1d8 extra damage per turn vs enemies that have already taken damage. It can be useful the first few levels, especially after you gain your second attack. However, as an archer you expect to act before your enemies a lot of the time, and so the ability goes somewhat against that.
Horde breaker lets you attack one more time if enemies are clustered close together. I like this ability better. Yes, it's still situational, but when it happens it's more valuable to make an extra attack than just do a little more damage.

EDIT: Max, Giant Killer is the ability against Large or larger creatures.

I know, but I was talking about Colossus Slayer. If you're fighting giants and dragons there aren't any other creatures around to use your extra attack on, so you might as well take your extra 1d8/round and be happy with it.

[Windrammer]

In concise terms... This should invariably involve fighter levels IMO. Champion, not Eldritch. Champion Fighter/Assassin Rogue is the ideal imo, I don't see much else being better than that.

[pso_zeldaphreak]

Why champion over EK? I would think Haste would be more beneficial than better critical range.

[Gwendol]

I know, but I was talking about Colossus Slayer. If you're fighting giants and dragons there aren't any other creatures around to use your extra attack on, so you might as well take your extra 1d8/round and be happy with it.

Why would the giant or dragon not have other creatures around? Trolls, orc, ogrillons and ogres are known to consort with giants. And what dragon does not have a legion or two of devoted attendants/serfs?

Windrammer: other classes are considered earlier in the thread. I question the result of the analysis based on the single target premise of that discussion, since it gives the ranger baseline damage. Against multiple foes the ranger damage and number of attacks increases considerably.

[eastmabl]

Why champion over EK? I would think Haste would be more beneficial than better critical range.

Haste is nice, but you get four uses a day max.

The Concentration tag on haste makes the spell difficult to rely on. If you take damage, the spell goes away.

[Giant2005]

Haste is nice, but you get four uses a day max.

The Concentration tag on haste makes the spell difficult to rely on. If you take damage, the spell goes away.

Not only goes away but also stuns you for a turn. Haste is a really nasty spell to have cast on you.

[MaxWilson]

Haste is nice, but you get four uses a day max.

The Concentration tag on haste makes the spell difficult to rely on. If you take damage, the spell goes away.

For an archer, Expeditious Retreat is more often useful than Haste. Lower cost in spell slots and action economy, no penalty if you blow it, longer duration. There are niche cases where Haste is useful (see: killing Tiamat) but Expeditious Retreat is your go-to spell. Bonus: if you have the Mobile feat, Expeditious Retreat lets you ignore difficult terrain, but your enemies do not.

[Gwendol]

Why champion over EK? I would think Haste would be more beneficial than better critical range.

Actually, thinking about it some more, the Battlemaster Archer is extremely cool. A lot of the maneuvers allow for archery, and many of them likely work even better at range. Best is if the BMA can pair up with a rogue, for example, but really anyone fighting at close range will benefit. The BMA isn't out for inflicting damage primarily (even if he's quite good at it too), but to manipulate the enemy.

Useful BMA maneuvers:

Menacing strike (frightened, at bow range)
Distracting strike (paired with rogue, or other melee)
Disarming strike (drop an item of your choice. Perfect against the pencil-necked mage or bard)
Trip attack (force the target prone, great when paired with rogue, or other melee)
Pushing attack (situational, but hilarious)
Goading attack (situational, but at range it usually means inflicting disadvantage for the round, which is not bad)

Looking at the BMA though, it's hard to motivate going further than, say, level 7 before picking up a different class (you only gain 2 more die over the course of your career, and while you can keep advancing BMA to develop some swashbuckling fighting skills as well, you might as well focus on archery). Rogue or Ranger both add something of use. Note that forcing a target prone actually gives you disadvantage on attacks, so only use this if an ally is in melee range of the enemy.

[Vogonjeltz]

Why champion over EK? I would think Haste would be more beneficial than better critical range.

I'm working off the fact that a champion can also benefit from Haste. And courtesy of increased crit range, their hasted attacks are better. EK has better burst than the Champion, but the Champion's damage should exceed the EK's in the long run. (This is assuming the EK gets the maximum benefit from haste for each casting).


Not only goes away but also stuns you for a turn. Haste is a really nasty spell to have cast on you.

Only works on a willing target. That being said, you're right, for a Fighter 20 (4 attacks per round) Haste only provides a net benefit of +6 attacks (assuming the character uses it for all 10 rounds), because they lose 4 attacks that last round.

Maximum of 4 haste castings for an EK provides up to 40 free attacks, -16 opportunity cost attacks from lost rounds leaves us with 24 extra attacks, assuming maximum utility (at least 10 rounds of combat for each haste casting, net total 44 rounds (includes 1 round loss of actions)).

[Giant2005]

Maximum of 4 haste castings for an EK provides up to 40 free attacks, -16 opportunity cost attacks from lost rounds leaves us with 24 extra attacks, assuming maximum utility (at least 10 rounds of combat for each haste casting, net total 44 rounds (includes 1 round loss of actions)).

That is also assuming that none of those spells ends early due to losing concentration.

[krunchyfrogg]

What I would choose.

Wood Elf Fighter BM 11, Rogue 7, Ranger 2

You get 3 attacks, action surge, assassinate, 2 fighting styles, superiority die. I'd grab Fog Cloud as one your first lvl spell. Which will allow you to hide from everything that doesn't have truesight. Grant it in a limited area, but you could hide fairly easy with a +15 to stealth using expertise. Most things won't even come close to seeing you unless the stumble on you.

Another variant was Cleris with War domain. If you get the drop on your enemy then it would give you another auto crit as a bonus action.

You can only get one fighting style. Unless you're a Champion.

I like going pure Fighter, Battle Master. I like what Eldritch Knight offers as well, so I might change my mind there.

[WickerNipple]

You can only get one fighting style. Unless you're a Champion.

No, Fighter 1/Ranger 2 nets you two fighting styles.

[Mandragola]

The other thing the EK offers, relative to other fighters, is... other things. Once you can cast spells you suddenly have a ton of options for stuff you can do as well as firing arrows all the time. I do like the options you get with the BM to push people, knock them over and generally do them more damage. The champion I don't like because honestly playing an archer is already quite boring in my opinion, so playing one with basically no in-combat options to use would be a nightmare.

[Vogonjeltz]

That is also assuming that none of those spells ends early due to losing concentration.

True, but having prof in the con saving throw makes it less likely to happen verse other classes

[Giant2005]

True, but having prof in the con saving throw makes it less likely to happen verse other classes

In theory that is true but it doesn't really help in practice. Damage only seems to come in two varieties: Either lots of little attacks that don't have much chance of breaking anyone's concentration, or one single attack big enough that no-one has much chance of making their save whether they are proficient or not.

[dev6500]

Silly ranged character idea.

warlock 2/bard10/ fighter EK 8

bard nets you good spells and swift quiver. warlock gets you EB w/cha to damage

EK gives you more spells, cantrip + attack as action, action surge, and feats.

with swift quiver, 3 long bow attacks a turn plus an EB. Surge pumps it to 4 long bow attacks and 2 EBs. Build requires high dex/cha but can other stats are optional. Still, 3 bow attacks + 4 EB rays a turn isn't bad as a baseline.

Ignore all that. the extra attack from EK with a cantrip costs a bonus action... bleh