Necromancy in Pathfinder v 3.x

[Almagesto]

I truly believe anyone who was ever interested in Necromancy read K's Revised Necromancer Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5584) at one point or another. I actually had a lot of fun creating both PCs and NPCs for my campaigns with that handbook.

After 2 campaigns as the DM, I am now able to play again thanks to one of my friend's newly found interest in DMing. The problem is, I've re-read K's handbook and several things are no longer true with Pathfinder. Most of the issues regarding classes or PrCs I can live with. My main issue is with Command Undead. In 3.5, the rule was as such (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Turn_or_Rebuke_Undead#Commanded), whereas in Pathfinder, the rule has changed to this (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/commandUndead.html). My main issue with this is the mechanics of the ability.

Whenever I play a necromancer, I tend to favor the more minion-oriented cleric rather than the necro-blaster wizard. However, I don't kow how I could be able to pull my I-don't-care-what-you-say,-I-have-a-dragon-zombie cleric with command undead being what it is in Pathfinder.

Does anyone have any advice for my cleric? Am I reading something wrong and the rules haven't changed that dramatically? Please comment - my campaign starts in 2 weeks; that's about the time I have to ponder on my PC.

[Doc_Maynot]

What you are looking for is the Wizard, Arcanist or Cleric only option

Command Undead, the feat
(http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/command-undead---final)
Granted to Necromancer Wizards at level 1 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/necromancy), Arcanists who take School Understanding or the School Savant Archetype, or Clerics that qualify for it and take the feat.

[grarrrg]

What you are looking for is the Wizard, Arcanist or Cleric only option

Command Undead, the feat
(http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/command-undead---final)
Granted to Necromancer Wizards at level 1 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/necromancy), Arcanists who take School Understanding or the School Savant Archetype, or Clerics that qualify for it and take the feat.

You missed Oracles, both Juju and Bones Mysteries get it as an option (and technically Antipaladins, but those don't make the best Necromancers).

Also, Arcanist>School Understanding is NOT a good way to go for Command Undead. Your Wizard level counts as _1_ the vast majority of the time, which limits you to _1_ HD of Commanded Undead.

[Doc_Maynot]

You missed Oracles, both Juju and Bones Mysteries get it as an option (and technically Antipaladins, but those don't make the best Necromancers).

Yeah, I wan't counting the paladin route, and I'm not too knowledgeable on Oracles



Also, Arcanist>School Understanding is NOT a good way to go for Command Undead. Your Wizard level counts as _1_ the vast majority of the time, which limits you to _1_ HD of Commanded Undead.

Not the best way, but still grants it, and turns to full progression with a Necromancer Wizard dip.

[Almagesto]

Thanks, guys!! This was really helpful.

Now I'm just a little confused on this: shouldn't I be able to control intelligent undead indefinitely? Also, I thought it was 4HD worth of undead per cleric level - at least that's how the Dread Necromancer used to be. Can I bolster that up, RAW?

[grarrrg]

Now I'm just a little confused on this: shouldn't I be able to control intelligent undead indefinitely? Also, I thought it was 4HD worth of undead per cleric level - at least that's how the Dread Necromancer used to be. Can I bolster that up, RAW?

Command Undead (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/command-undead---final), the Channeling Feat, limits you to Character level=HD. You indefinitely control mindless Undead, but Intelligent ones get a new Saving Throw each day.

Command Undead (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/command-undead), the spell, has no HD limit, but you can only really control mindless undead, Intelligent ones it's more of a "suggestion" type thing.

Animate Dead (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/animate-dead) is the standard "summon corpses from the ground" spell, and limits you to 4 HD of whatever you make (Juju Oracles can get 6 HD per level, and Agent of the Grave PrC levels count for 8 HD per level).

Undead Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/undead-master) Feat either gets you more minions, or increases duration of the above.

[Doc_Maynot]

That's not to forget Threnodic Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/threnodic-spell-metamagic) if you are not interested in the Agent of the Grave PrC.
It's basically PF's fixed Song of the Dead

[Almagesto]

Thanks, this is very helpful.

[Kraken]

This is something I looked up recently too. I'm pretty sure the only reliable ways to have good control over intelligent undead are dominate spells being used via either threnodic spell or agent of the grave's class abilities. The demonic obedience feat combined with worshiping kabiri is the only other way, but that doesn't come online until level 16, or level 13 if you take the demoniac prestige class. Kabiri's second boon: "Undead Minion (Sp): You can cast create undead once per day. The undead that is created obeys you without question. If you use this ability to create a new undead minion, the previous undead is destroyed."

[Almagesto]

OK, re-read everythind and I still have one problem: Command Undead (channeling feat) only gives me control over mindless undead. And even that would be ok, were it not for the fact that it actually mimics control undead, which has a time limit. I believe this was not the case with 3.5 rebuking (i.e. command) was it?

[Doc_Maynot]

It allows you to control intelligent undead. In fact, if explicitly mentions they get to attempt a new save once per 24 hours which seems to imply the control is unending. The reference to control undead seems to be the parameters describing what the specifics of the control are. Like, what you can and can;t have them do.

[Almagesto]

It allows you to control intelligent undead. In fact, if explicitly mentions they get to attempt a new save once per 24 hours which seems to imply the control is unending. The reference to control undead seems to be the parameters describing what the specifics of the control are. Like, what you can and can;t have them do.

OK, but does that mean that unintelligent undead get no saving throw? Also, is the duration for the spell then not mimiced by the same token?

[Doc_Maynot]

By how it reads unintelligent undead still get a save. The feat itself and from reading up on it, again, it seems to have no duration.

[skypse]

All undead are entitled to the first save to resist the ability. Afterwards, non-intelligent undead are constantly under your control and intelligent undead receive 1 save each day to resist it. The duration is endless. Thinking that it takes the duration of Control Undead spell is an understandable missunderstanding due to poor wording, but it is self-contradicting with the 1 save/day rule which means that the duration is AT least 2 days. Since there is no duration mentioned however, it is illogical to say that it is 2 days or give any numerical value to it. This leaves us with an endless duration for all undead.

[Almagesto]

I tend to be pretty good at rules-lawyering, but so are my peers (and future DM). It is true that poor wording is to blame here, but I just wanted to double check: the reference to the spell is only with regards to mechanics, right? Because the spell in itself has a duration of 1 min./level and - as Skypse pointed out - the mere fact that the channel feat gives a save per day to intelligent undead suggests an indefinite duration for mindless undead.

Also, the intelligent undead won't downright hurt themselves for their master, whilst the mindless will obey whatever order he or she utter to them. And I say utter, not give, because the feat and the spell seem to suggest that unless actually hearing (and not through telepathy or some other ability) the order, the undead will not obey it. Am I also right on this one? Could I telepathically control the undead - or is that something my DM could object to?

[Doc_Maynot]

Yes, you would have to audibly give them commands.

[Almagesto]

Yes, you would have to audibly give them commands.

OK, two questions:


Is this also true when I awaken undead? I mean, with some intelligence I would expect them to be able to understand that "the voice inside their head" is that of its master.
If the undead are awaken, do they get a save every day like other intelligent undead? OR are they considered buffed mindless undead? I mean, the whole point of awakening undead was so my zombies and skeles could retain some feats and proficiencies.

[skypse]

I wouldn't rule against telepathy as long as you do something to establish it. e.g. telepathetic bond or something like that. If nothing is done towards that aspect though, you can only speak to them. However what language they actually know would be troublesome. A zombie horse is undead, but it is still a horse so I don't know if it would be able to understand Common. You can homebrew that when you animate dead you chose a language to communicate or that your summons automatically speak your language but I have no idea what happens if you find a wraith in a catacomb and you use your Power Over Undead from your wizard let's say.

[skypse]

OK, two questions:


Is this also true when I awaken undead? I mean, with some intelligence I would expect them to be able to understand that "the voice inside their head" is that of its master.
If the undead are awaken, do they get a save every day like other intelligent undead? OR are they considered buffed mindless undead? I mean, the whole point of awakening undead was so my zombies and skeles could retain some feats and proficiencies.


I don't think there is "a voice inside their heads" of any sorts. They instinctively follow you once they fail their save, but I would rule that this is pure instinct and nothing else. As far as the save goes, imho yes.

[Almagesto]

I don't think there is "a voice inside their heads" of any sorts. They instinctively follow you once they fail their save, but I would rule that this is pure instinct and nothing else. As far as the save goes, imho yes.

Thanks, Skypse. I guess I won't be awakening my zombies any time soon.

Tell me, would you still allow things like the corpsecrafter chain of feats to be incorporated into your Pathfinder campaign?

[skypse]

Thanks, Skypse. I guess I won't be awakening my zombies any time soon.

Tell me, would you still allow things like the corpsecrafter chain of feats to be incorporated into your Pathfinder campaign?

I am not fond of the chaotic 3.5 material that is available out there and I am sceptical even for the Pathfinder 3rd party material so I guess my answer is no. I would prefer to stick with the official Paizo published material for PF and nothing else.

[stack]

As a side note, I believe Juju Oracle into Agent fo the Grave with the undead master feat gets you the maximum possible HD of undead for you shambling horde needs. The charisma focus of the oracle really helps with your channeling DC's as well. Getting CHA to HP is a nice bit from agent of the grave as well, though the PRC doesn't advance your channeling, so you lose a few points of DC there. Channel ray (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/channel-ray) could help for a single target. I don't know of any feats to raise your effective level for channeling to make up for the lost ones.

[skypse]

Necromancy Wizard still saves you the feat tax though since it is a school power.