Stone to Flesh = Animate-able corpses?

[RoboEmperor]

an ordinary statue would become a corpse

If I fabricate a gold great wyrm statue, or at least parts of it piece by piece adhering to the 3foot diameter 10foot height cylinder, and then cast stone to flesh, can I animate dead it into a skeletal dragon?

[Snowbluff]

I have no clue how the game determines what the corpse's stats are. :smallfrown:

[Milo v3]

If I fabricate a gold great wyrm statue, use stone to flesh on it, can I then use animate dead to make a skeletal dragon???

Nope, where are you getting the bone from.

Zombies on the other hand....

[RoboEmperor]

Nope, where are you getting the bone from.

Zombies on the other hand....

Bones are flesh... aren't they? Like it says you get a corpse and corpses have bones.

I doubt zombies can move without bones as well.

If you're right then I guess it's a no.

[Crake]

Bones are flesh... aren't they? Like it says you get a corpse and corpses have bones.

I doubt zombies can move without bones as well.

If you're right then I guess it's a no.

unless the stone was previously a creature, you're simply converting the statue or whatever into a lump of flesh in the shape of a gold dragon, not actually creating a gold dragon corpse, and no, technically, bone is not flesh. Flesh is "the soft substance consisting of muscle and fat that is found between the skin and bones of a human or an animal."

[RoboEmperor]

Damn, alright thanks.

[ericgrau]

I dunno, the spell description specifically says that a statue becomes a corpse, and that such a corpse might become active if a soul or magical energy were provided. Additionally I presume a flesh to stone spell also turns the bones and skin into stone, so stone to flesh would recreate them. Flesh can also mean "the body, especially as distinguished from the spirit or soul".

OTOH the spell description directly contradicts the stone golem description. Who knows how much thought went into this.

[SiuiS]

If I fabricate a gold great wyrm statue, or at least parts of it piece by piece adhering to the 3foot diameter 10foot height cylinder, and then cast stone to flesh, can I animate dead it into a skeletal dragon?

Yes.


I have no clue how the game determines what the corpse's stats are. :smallfrown:

Presumably they are standard array for the creature in question. Per the spell, if you make a statue of a gold wyrm, flesh to stone it, animate it, you get an animated gold wyrm. There is no reason to think otherwise, because it while it doesn't say either way, it does say you get a corpse, and it does insinuate the corpse is what the statue was.


Nope, where are you getting the bone from.

Zombies on the other hand....

Corpses have bones. This is a specific exemption from the genera of the spell. It creates corpses.


unless the stone was previously a creature, you're simply converting the statue or whatever into a lump of flesh in the shape of a gold dragon, not actually creating a gold dragon corpse, and no, technically, bone is not flesh. Flesh is "the soft substance consisting of muscle and fat that is found between the skin and bones of a human or an animal."

This is incorrect. The spell creates corpses out of statues. If the only change is "statue" > "corpse", then "gold wyrm statue" > "gold wyrm corpse".



OTOH the spell description directly contradicts the stone golem description. Who knows how much thought went into this.

No it does not, the stone golem creates a specific exemption to the stone to flesh spell. Which makes sense because it's A) not a statue, B) a creature and C) becoming a corpse would mean it died.

[Zanos]

Animate dead targets a corpse, but in the spell description it says that it "turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands."

Whether or not a corpse is a dead creature is questionable in this case.

[SiuiS]

Animate dead targets a corpse, but in the spell description it says that it "turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands."

Whether or not a corpse is a dead creature is questionable in this case.

I disagree. Unless you can find a rules definition of corpse which is exclusionary, this falls under the real world logic clause. Corpse has no other possible definition than body of a creature.

[Steward]

Well, there's the Drum and Bugle Corpse, the world's premier undead marching band.

[RoboEmperor]

I'm gonna agree with SiuiS. Stone to Flesh is not literally stone to flesh, as previously petrified creatures retain everything, bones and all. The spell says because a statue does not have a life force or a spirit, the resulting body ends up a corpse, where as if there the statue does have a life force or spirit like an actual petrified creature, the resulting body does not end up a corpse.

Oh my GOD! This is AMAZING! With craft sculpting + stone wall + fabricate + stone to flesh, I can craft every single corpse in the game! TAKE THAT CLERICS! WHO IS THE SUPERIOR NECROMANCER CLASS NOW? I don't even need to use PaO anymore.

[SiuiS]

Best used in moderation. This is the sort of thing that's amazing as a neat trick used for effect, but quickly fixed with houserule if it's a problem.

[RoboEmperor]

Best used in moderation. This is the sort of thing that's amazing as a neat trick used for effect, but quickly fixed with houserule if it's a problem.

Nah. I'm sure everyone would prefer I have 2 high HD dragon skeletons instead of
1. Large number of skeletons in equal HD bogging down the game
2. Going dragon hunting every time one of my skeletons die (which is often given their craptastic AC)
3. Going dragon hunting every time I level up

The dragons deal great damage, but dies too quickly, and this rectifies that.

[SiuiS]

Nah. I'm sure everyone would prefer I have 2 high HD dragon skeletons instead of
1. Large number of skeletons in equal HD bogging down the game
2. Going dragon hunting every time one of my skeletons die (which is often given their craptastic AC)
3. Going dragon hunting every time I level up

The dragons deal great damage, but dies too quickly, and this rectifies that.

Alright. I went the low level route m'self, specifically because the difference between eight skeletons dogpiling you and grappling and one really good grappling skeleton with sixteen arms is nil. XD

If you're going to constantly have two guards, cool. Name them J and Silent Bob! Just don't roll out a small mechanized army or have replacement skeletons waiting in your custom statue factory where you pull out Swiss army minions and dispose of them as the situation demands.

Or do, that's kinda boss.

[RoboEmperor]

Alright. I went the low level route m'self, specifically because the difference between eight skeletons dogpiling you and grappling and one really good grappling skeleton with sixteen arms is nil. XD

If you're going to constantly have two guards, cool. Name them J and Silent Bob! Just don't roll out a small mechanized army or have replacement skeletons waiting in your custom statue factory where you pull out Swiss army minions and dispose of them as the situation demands.

Or do, that's kinda boss.

How'd you read my mind? o_O
I am going to abuse command undead and make an entire army of these guys! A massive army of 41hd gold great wyrms! That's gonna be a sight to behold!

Of course, I'll just stick most of them in my bag of holding so the DM doesn't throw his book at me. 2 out at most at any time should be "balanced" and the rest are replacements.

No swiss-army, all of them will be dragons! Rawwrrrr! I don't give a damn what skeletons could be better grapplers or aren't massive cover for the enemy. Using dragon skeletons make me feel grand, and I love feeling grand.
XD.

In all serious though, i won't roll out an army unless our party specifically wants to lay siege to an enemy fortress. Then they'll appreciate me with my massive undead, demon, and construct army :)

[Necroticplague]

Alright. I went the low level route m'self, specifically because the difference between eight skeletons dogpiling you and grappling and one really good grappling skeleton with sixteen arms is nil. XD

Actually, their's a pretty big difference. Low level skeletons have a low chance of maintaining a grapple individually, but produce a lot of checks that the grappled one has to beat all of. Meanwhile, the 16-armed skeleton gets to benefit from Sword and Fist's rule that gives bonus to grapple for extra limbs, to create just one check that's hard to beat.

[Crake]

This is incorrect. The spell creates corpses out of statues. If the only change is "statue" > "corpse", then "gold wyrm statue" > "gold wyrm corpse".

Can you quote me the part in stone to flesh where it says that a statue targetted by this spell turns into the appropriate corpse? The only stone that stone to flesh does not convert into lumps of flesh is that of petrified creatures

[ericgrau]

No it does not, the stone golem creates a specific exemption to the stone to flesh spell. Which makes sense because it's A) not a statue, B) a creature and C) becoming a corpse would mean it died.
The spell says it turns a stone golem into a flesh golem. The stone golem description gives a completely different effect.

It does seem likely that the spell creates animatable corpses though. Both technically and by spell intent. It says it makes corpses from statues and suggests the possibility of bringing a life force into one, or otherwise making them move with magic.

I don't think it's too broken to make dragon zombies or skeletons with it. The statues seem incredibly time consuming and skill-intensive to craft, and even sculpt stone takes many many castings. Not to mention finding a gigantic solid piece of stone.

[RoboEmperor]

The spell says it turns a stone golem into a flesh golem. The stone golem description gives a completely different effect.

It does seem likely that the spell creates animatable corpses though. Both technically and by spell intent. It says it makes corpses and suggests the possibility of bringing a life force into one or otherwise making them move with magic.

I don't think it's too broken to make dragon zombies or skeletons with it. The statues seem incredibly time consuming to craft, and even sculpt stone takes many many castings. Not to mention finding a gigantic solid piece of stone.

I think it turns a willing stone golem into a flesh golem, not in combat, as in it's your stone golem. Like wise the opposite should be true! Flesh to Stone a flesh golem and it will turn into a stone golem! Brilliant! Every day I learn more ways to get cheap golems!

It doesn't have to be a giant piece of stone. You could craft the pieces of bone individually, or just craft a skeleton gold great wyrm.

Fabricate should make the sculpting almost instant

Stone wall spammage should get you enough stone to cover the entire colossal size of the dragon.

[ericgrau]

I think it turns a willing stone golem into a flesh golem, not in combat, as in it's your stone golem. Like wise the opposite should be true! Flesh to Stone a flesh golem and it will turn into a stone golem! Brilliant! Every day I learn more ways to get cheap golems!
That explanation may be a bit of a stretch.

Plus a flesh golem is immune to flesh to stone. Now if you could somehow get flesh to stone to deal electricity damage with some weird energy feats, then you might be in business. But there's nothing in the spell or creature descriptions about that and I doubt that was the original intent.

[RoboEmperor]

A flesh golem is immune to flesh to stone. Now if you could somehow get flesh to stone to deal electricity damage with some weird energy feats, then you might be in business. Though I doubt that was the original intent.

Flesh golem is not immune if its YOUR flesh golem. As in you craft one/buy one, make it lower its spell resistance, then BAM!

[ericgrau]

Well it's magic immunity... but lowering it like SR does seem to work by raw.

Whether or not you get a stone golem at 78% off rather than a solid stone statue that is good for crafting into a stone golem with additional materials is the questionable part.

[RoboEmperor]

Well it's magic immunity... but lowering it like SR does seem to work by raw.

Whether or not you get a stone golem at 78% off rather than a solid stone statue that is good for crafting into a stone golem with additional materials is the questionable part.

XD, when in doubt, DM wins. But I think there is no reason it wouldn't work because stone to flesh specifically states it can turn stone golems into flesh golems, so the opposite should hold true as well, since stone to flesh and flesh to stone are opposites.

[Ruethgar]

Of course this also opens the possibility for the creation of new creatures and I personally would require an exorbitant Knowledge Nature, Engineering, and Craft(Sculpture) to be able to carve every sinew and vein, because while Flesh to Stone makes a perfect statue, carving is rarely so precise and I would throw the Book of Templates Degenerate Template on them with varying severity depending on your checks.

[RoboEmperor]

Of course this also opens the possibility for the creation of new creatures and I personally would require an exorbitant Knowledge Nature, Engineering, and Craft(Sculpture) to be able to carve every sinew and vein, because while Flesh to Stone makes a perfect statue, carving is rarely so precise and I would throw the Book of Templates Degenerate Template on them with varying severity depending on your checks.

I dunno about new creatures. Magic has a thing about existing creatures. Summon spells bring in real creatures, polymorph only allows real creature forms, planar binding only grabs real creatures, etc.

So likewise stone to flesh chooses the creature with the closest resemblance to the statue?

That doesn't mean you can't create creatures with other means.

[SiuiS]

Actually, their's a pretty big difference. Low level skeletons have a low chance of maintaining a grapple individually, but produce a lot of checks that the grappled one has to beat all of. Meanwhile, the 16-armed skeleton gets to benefit from Sword and Fist's rule that gives bonus to grapple for extra limbs, to create just one check that's hard to beat.

If I used that rule, sure. Most creature just go for multiple grapple attempts (often through improved grab and piddling damage) though.


Can you quote me the part in stone to flesh where it says that a statue targetted by this spell turns into the appropriate corpse? The only stone that stone to flesh does not convert into lumps of flesh is that of petrified creatures

Can you quote where it does not make a corpse of the same variety as the statue? Can you cite the corpse entry in any book so that there is a RAW basis for this? Do you have an actual specific rule which specifically invalidates the clause that when there isn't something specific, default to real world logic and common sense?

You last sentence is wrong and clearly in contradiction of RAW. The spell says it creates a corpse, one specifically capable of being a living, breathing, functioning creature, which includes a variety of tissues and structures, differentiation of bone, muscle, organ and skin, and everything else a living creature needs to not be dead and malformed.

If you really, truly want to push the issue, then flesh doesn't mean skin. It means muscle. Every single statue that is hit with stone to flesh becomes a grey render corpse. But that's far less likely and far less rational than a spell which turns a semblance of a living thing into the actual living thing sans life, being unable to do so despite clearly saying it does and can.


The spell says it turns a stone golem into a flesh golem. The stone golem description gives a completely different effect.

It does. That's interesting and I am amazed I've missed that all these years.


Flesh golem is not immune if its YOUR flesh golem. As in you craft one/buy one, make it lower its spell resistance, then BAM!

That's debatable and a DM call, as has come up.


carving is rarely so precise

Have you seen carved art? There are people out there who made marble into diaphanous silk, complete with the implication of weft and weave, and you believe carving is rarely so precise? I dunno man.

And what is a dragon wrought in stone but a made up creature with historical inertia?

[StoneCipher]

While it may be possible to create a gold wyrm dragon statue, the spell does not specifically state that it turns it into the appropriate corpse. (At least that's what I'm reading from the thread. Work blocks all sources of D&D knowledge I can turn to lol) It would be a stretch to say you can turn it into an resurrectable dragon per se. Ultimately it would be the DM that determines what you get. Without any advance preparation, I'd animate you a dragon's physical form but it would have no magical properties that dragons usually have. If you were to apply an appropriate dragon's soul to the corpse, then it may be a little different.

[ellindsey]

I assume the OP is asking about D&D? Pathfinder specifically calls out Stone To Flesh as turning a statue into "a mass of inert flesh in the shape of the statue" that can't be used for Animate Dead or other purposes requiring a corpse, presumably to prevent just this type of use.

[RoboEmperor]

Yeah, it's d&d not pathfinder.

To reiterate what I said before, magic seems to love existing creatures, so the magic somehow knowing the statue is that of a gold wyrm or a skeleton of a gold wyrm is reasonable if the statue is in fact very detailed. I mean, how does planar binding know where the outsider you're looking for is? How does summon monster grab the correct type of monster on the other side of the world? How does polymorph know what forms look like? The answer is MAGIC

[atemu1234]

Just to weigh in; I think you could animate the corpse WITHIN REASON. I don't think you could, say, make a scale model of a dinosaur, cast stone to flesh, and animate a full-sized zombie t-rex. Maybe half hit dice would be a good idea, though I'm uncertain.

Is stone to flesh permanent? I'm AFB.

[RoboEmperor]

Just to weigh in; I think you could animate the corpse WITHIN REASON. I don't think you could, say, make a scale model of a dinosaur, cast stone to flesh, and animate a full-sized zombie t-rex. Maybe half hit dice would be a good idea, though I'm uncertain.

Is stone to flesh permanent? I'm AFB.

There's a size limit of 3ft diameter and 10ft height per casting of stone to flesh. That doesn't mean you can't cast 999 stone to flesh to turn a colossal statue into a chopped up corpse, which shouldn't be a problem for skeletal animate dead. Not sure about zombies as the corpse is not intact, but I don't care about zombies :P.

[StoneCipher]

Yeah, it's d&d not pathfinder.

To reiterate what I said before, magic seems to love existing creatures, so the magic somehow knowing the statue is that of a gold wyrm or a skeleton of a gold wyrm is reasonable if the statue is in fact very detailed. I mean, how does planar binding know where the outsider you're looking for is? How does summon monster grab the correct type of monster on the other side of the world? How does polymorph know what forms look like? The answer is MAGIC

The problem is you're not creating an existing creature. You're making a whole new, never existed creature. That means it lacks a soul, and last I checked, you cannot create souls unless you're a god. So you animate an undead dragon, however it would be mindless without a soul. Therefore it could not cast spells, and may debatably have a breath weapon.

[Zanos]

The problem is you're not creating an existing creature. You're making a whole new, never existed creature. That means it lacks a soul, and last I checked, you cannot create souls unless you're a god. So you animate an undead dragon, however it would be mindless without a soul. Therefore it could not cast spells, and may debatably have a breath weapon.
Creatures that result from animate dead are mindless by default, and lose many of their racial abilities.

Zombies dragons only have a breath weapon by virtue of a specific template in the Draconomicon.

*As an aside, it's entirely possible for a (non-epic) wizard to create entirely new creatures with intelligence. Either a soul is not required for intelligence or they're a lot easier to make than one would think.

[StoneCipher]

Creatures that result from animate dead are mindless by default, and lose many of their racial abilities.

Zombies dragons only have a breath weapon by virtue of a specific template in the Draconomicon.

*As an aside, it's entirely possible for a (non-epic) wizard to create entirely new creatures with intelligence. Either a soul is not required for intelligence or they're a lot easier to make than one would think.

I am just coming to that based off of the undead template's language that the soul does give intelligence to undead. I only mention it because I don't know the exhaustive list of how to bring something back as an undead, but you are right in that animate dead creates a mindless creature.

However, creating a new creature with intelligence I have never heard of outside of constructs. Perhaps if you want to call living constructs creatures, then that would be perhaps not as easy to create a living construct, but still possible with enough time and resources.

But, I don't think its possible to create a soul without either destroying others for the means unless you have the specific god-like ability to create something like that from absolutely nothing. This is only in reference to non-epic characters though. Epic characters, especially wizards, can be pretty much considered gods anyways and given enough time and resources, they could probably do anything that they really wanted. So, at that point, creating a gold wyrm dragon from a statue may be a bit redundant or at the very least an exercise of power to cure boredom. Boccob probably does stuff like that just for kicks.