baleful polymorph v.s. flesh to stone v.s. finger of death v.s. disintegrate

[RoboEmperor]

Three are save or die. All four target fortitude save.

Baleful Polymorph
+ Level 5, so gotten earliest. Also can be spammed the most
+ With heighten spell can match the DC of all the rest
+ Only oozes and plants are immune
+ Polymorph spell does NOT revert it.
- Dispellable
- Close Range

Flesh to Stone
+ Medium Range
- Stone to flesh stops it
- Undispellable (instantaneous) though there are ways to cure it (break enchantment)
- Doesn't work on non-fleshies (elementals, ooze, plants, constructs)
- No Loot!

Finger of Death
+ Does pitiful damage upon a fail
+ Undispellable
- Lots of enemies are immune
- Deathward makes everyone immune
- Close Range

Disintegrate
+ Lots of out of combat utility
+ Undispellable
+ Does pitiful damage upon a fail
+ Destroys force effects, walls, etc, so anti-control spell.
+ Medium Range
- Success does not mean a kill
- Damage varies wildly. Could do pathetic damage, could do amazing damage
- RAY TOUCH ATTACK

So... for a sorcerer with heighten spell, which should she go for as her main fortitude save-or-die? I'm leaning towards Baleful Polymorph for a purely combat role, but disintegrate's out of combat is highly appealing too.

[JDL]

Agreed, when you consider the following points:

Baleful Polymorph: Close Range, but does not appear to have a limitation on target type except for incorporeals, gaseous creatures or shapeshifters.

Flesh to Stone: Medium Range, but all the creature's gear turns to stone too, so no loot. Also does not work on non-flesh creatures.

Finger of Death: Close Range, but only affects living creatures and as you said, is commonly resisted.

So unless you're looking for medium range, Heightened Baleful Polymorph is probably the best of the lot.

[RoboEmperor]

Yeah forgot about the loot thing, as burning a spell slot for stone to flesh is a definite no on a sorcerer.

[Zanos]

Disintegrate probably works on the widest range of creatures. Making pits and saying bye to walls/doors are also nice effects.

Baleful Polymorph does NOT work on undead or constructs , since it targets a creature, and can't affect objects.

[RoboEmperor]

Right... thanks for pointing that out. At least the spell choice is narrowed to 2, baleful or disintegrate.

[eggynack]

I'm not really sure why there's even a contest there. Disintegrate is a higher level spell that does less. Sure, one can dispel baleful polymorph, but that's why you use the time when the opponent is an animal to kill them. Sure, there's some decent utility there, but it's not a huge amount, and not enough to make up for the fact that you're trading a save or lose for a spell that blasts with lower reliability.

[RoboEmperor]

I'm not really sure why there's even a contest there. Disintegrate is a higher level spell that does less. Sure, one can dispel baleful polymorph, but that's why you use the time when the opponent is an animal to kill them. Sure, there's some decent utility there, but it's not a huge amount, and not enough to make up for the fact that you're trading a save or lose for a spell that blasts with lower reliability.

Yeah, I'm agreeing with you right now. Baleful Polymorph > Disintegrate. Besides, I got a lot of anti-undead stuff (no anti construct however)

[Bronk]

Baleful polymorph is also nice in that it leaves gear behind instead of destroying it...

[AmberVael]

Baleful polymorph is also nice in that it leaves gear behind instead of destroying it...

"A disintegrated creature’s equipment is unaffected."
Not a concern. That said, if you want an offensive save or die disintegrate still shouldn't be your choice. Its really more of a utility spell. Good against undead though.

[atemu1234]

"A disintegrated creature’s equipment is unaffected."
Not a concern. That said, if you want an offensive save or die disintegrate still shouldn't be your choice. Its really more of a utility spell. Good against undead though.

There's a reason every character I make has Disintegrate either prepared or known, or even as a power (when I use psionics), mostly because even if it fails it does a decent amount of damage, and if it doesn't... well, I win.

[AmberVael]

There's a reason every character I make has Disintegrate either prepared or known, or even as a power (when I use psionics), mostly because even if it fails it does a decent amount of damage, and if it doesn't... well, I win.

5d6 damage (average 18 damage) is not really significant damage at level 11. And since it doesn't scale, it gets even worse the further you go.

[With a box]

I almost always thought disintegrate as wallbuster/remove force effect.

[RoboEmperor]

I almost always thought disintegrate as wallbuster/remove force effect.

Right, so not an offensive option but a wall buster. I'm gonna go with baleful polymorph. As I mentioned before I got plenty of anti-undead, although no anti-construct.

[Zanos]

I like disintegrate more from a thematic standpoint myself, even if it isn't particularly good. Turning people into newts always seemed a bit more of a comedy spell to me.

Disintegrate isn't really a good anti-construct option, though. Most constructs tend to be immune to anything with SR, unless they're cheap.

[RoboEmperor]

I like disintegrate more from a thematic standpoint myself, even if it isn't particularly good. Turning people into newts always seemed a bit more of a comedy spell to me.

Disintegrate isn't really a good anti-construct option, though. Most constructs tend to be immune to anything with SR, unless they're cheap.

Yeah that got me confused too. By RAW disintegrate should do absolutely nothing to a golem unless it is specifically stated in the golem's description. But then comes along beholders with disintegrate rays that don't have SR. So whatever.

Baleful Polymorph isn't comedic, it's horrifying. I turned you into a toad. Now I put you in a cage and you watch in horror as I take all of your stuff and either imprison you forever, eventually leading to your complete loss of memory, or squash you beneath my boot. It's the same feeling you'd get if someone paralyzed you permanently and you could do nothing but watch.

[Chronos]

Actually, Disintegrate is great against golems. You target the ground at their feet, and now the golem is stuck in a pit.

Yes, Disintegrate is a worse fort-or-die spell than Baleful Polymorph. That's because Disintegrate isn't a fort-or-die spell at all. It's a versatile utility spell. It's versatile enough that, in some cases, it can sort of fill in for a fort-or-die spell, but that's not why you take it.

[kaffalidjmah]

Baleful polymorph has my vote. Save or sucks. Disintegrate is great against undead, but against costruct i use orb of fire (complete arcane) or deactivation ray (spell compendium). Or the party arteficier cast deactivate costruct.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Disintegrate isn't really a good anti-construct option, though. Most constructs tend to be immune to anything with SR, unless they're cheap.

That's just golemns. There are many constructs with no such immunity.


I prefer disintegrate myself. Realistically, the damage will almost always be pretty close to average because that's just how odds work; the more dice you roll the more likely it is that you'll get average and nearly average results. At a minimum of 18 dice (artificer scroll) it's more than comfortable enough, IMO, to assume nearly average damage on nearly every casting.

At 7hp per caster level worth of damage you can drop some pretty beefy stuff and unlike b. polymorph you at least get something even if they make the save. Then you add in the much greater utility functions and it seems like a no-brainer to me.

[holywhippet]

Yeah forgot about the loot thing, as burning a spell slot for stone to flesh is a definite no on a sorcerer.

You could always acquire it as a scroll, wand or other magical item. It would be good to have just in case one of your party members gets petrified. When it comes to using it on a petrified enemy you'd have to use your best guess as to whether they are worth the cost of the loot if you are using an expendable item to turn them back.

[RoboEmperor]

Alright, so it seems baleful polymorph is everyone's choice of fort-or-die

Disintegrate is everyone's choice for utility. Not the best fort-or-die, but it can fill that role, and be useful for a variety of things. Not like you will be succeeding at overcoming saves of monsters who can just shrug off 140 damage.

I might go stone to flesh after seeing how my other thread turns out (flesh to stone = animate-able corpses?)

[Crake]

well, depending on how your DM rules it, break enchantment could get rid of stone to flesh (not requiring a roll, because you can always choose to auto-dispel your own spells), so you lop off their head, then break enchantment and get their loot, and break enchantment has plenty of other utility uses.

[RoboEmperor]

well, depending on how your DM rules it, break enchantment could get rid of stone to flesh (not requiring a roll, because you can always choose to auto-dispel your own spells), so you lop off their head, then break enchantment and get their loot, and break enchantment has plenty of other utility uses.

I dunno, duration is instantaneous. I think break enchantment only works on non-instantaneous spells.

[Zanos]

Break enchantment absolutely does not work on flesh to stone.


"If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower."
Flesh to stone is a 6th level spell. It would work if not for that clause, because break enchantment can specifically reverse instantaneous effects, including transmutations.

EDIT: Apparently the original PH version specifies it can reverse flesh to stone, although the SRD version doesn't include that text. Odd.

[Jack_Simth]

Three are save or die. All four target fortitude save.

Baleful Polymorph
+ Level 5, so gotten earliest. Also can be spammed the most
+ With heighten spell can match the DC of all the rest
+ Only oozes and plants are immune
+ Polymorph spell does NOT revert it.
- Dispellable
- Close Range

Undead & Constructs are also immune - due to their clause about fort save effects (BP does not affect bjects). It also leaves the mind intact for a day (post-errata), and possibly forever. This makes it easier for a target to seek help. Shapeshifters can revert as a standard action.


Flesh to Stone
+ Medium Range
- Stone to flesh stops it
- Dispellable
- Doesn't work on non-fleshies (elementals, ooze, plants, constructs)
- No Loot!

Not exactly Dispellable. It's an Instant spell, not a Permanent one, and it requires Stone to Flesh to reverse (Break Enchantment's summary says it can, however, Stone to Flesh is out of range of the actual text).


Finger of Death
+ Does pitiful damage upon a fail
+ Undispellable
- Lots of enemies are immune
- Deathward makes everyone immune
- Close Range

Disintegrate
+ Lots of out of combat utility
+ Undispellable
+ Does pitiful damage upon a fail
+ Destroys force effects, walls, etc, so anti-control spell.
+ Medium Range
- Success does not mean a kill
- Damage varies wildly. Could do pathetic damage, could do amazing damage
- RAY TOUCH ATTACK

So... for a sorcerer with heighten spell, which should she go for as her main fortitude save-or-die? I'm leaning towards Baleful Polymorph for a purely combat role, but disintegrate's out of combat is highly appealing too.

What you do is take two of them such that the critters immune to both is a small group. So take BP (5th) and Disintegrate (6th). Later on, you take Polymorph Any Object (8th), and trade out BP for something else.

[Chronos]

Break Enchantment definitely works against Flesh to Stone. It's not stopped by the "if a spell cannot be dispelled by Dispel Magic" line because Flesh to Stone isn't a spell that can't be dispelled; it's a spell for which dispelling is irrelevant. Undoing petrification doesn't involve any spell at all, since the spell isn't there any more. That line is in there for things like Bestow Curse. Stone to Flesh instead falls under the purview of the line "Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect.".

[RoboEmperor]

What you do is take two of them such that the critters immune to both is a small group. So take BP (5th) and Disintegrate (6th). Later on, you take Polymorph Any Object (8th), and trade out BP for something else.

This seems like a great idea as I do intend on getting PaO.

[Flickerdart]

There's no problem with dispellable SoDs - after you turn them into a frog or a pebble, smash them to bits.

[RoboEmperor]

There's no problem with dispellable SoDs - after you turn them into a frog or a pebble, smash them to bits.

Yeah, there isn't, but I just added that to be more complete. Unless of course your DM loves counterspelling and dispelling, at which point BP is gonna suck.

Actually, I'm dumping DEX so I'll go BP, unless I really can't think of a better 6th level spell.

[ericgrau]

I wouldn't get any single target fort save or die with many immunities. I'd get disintegrate because fewer things are immune and because it has amazing out of combat utility uses. But I wouldn't actually cast it or any single target fort SoD in combat that often. Fort tends to be a high save, especially among things without SR. And it's only one target. I'd rather BFC away multiple targets. Or heck even damage multiple targets. Anything but a single target effect that anything important will resist. The exception is undead because they have very low fort saves and are less likely to have SR, and you need disintegrate for that.

So... disintegrate hands down, but more for utility than a single target fort SoD. Undead blasting and other occasional killing is an added bonus.

Resilient sphere is nice to pick up though. Targets reflex which tends to be lowest, no SR nor can most foes negate it, only level 4, and actually takes the foe out of the fight unlike grease. Oh and it doubles as defensive utility as if that weren't enough.

Or a nice multi-target fort SoD is circle of death. If you face a lot of undead, there's even a matching undeath to death spell. But then that eats another spell known and so should only be used in an undead heavy campaign or at very high level with heighten or empower (selected as the situation requires). The HD cap is a little bit of a bugger though it's not terrible. Same level as some of the others and by the time you reach that level the material cost isn't that significant.

[Chronos]

I suppose it depends on what sorts of combats your DM likes to throw at you. If a typical combat is one very nasty opponent, then a single-target spell is just as good as a multi-target spell, and Resilient Sphere is nearly useless, since you can't do anything to your opponent in that time either, and it just means both sides will start the real fight fully buffed. On the other hand, if your typical combat is a bunch of weak things, then multi-targeting can be much more valuable, and it can be useful to sphere a few of them away to take them out piecemeal.

Circle of Death is a pretty poor choice. It's got a hard cap of 9 HD creatures, as well as an unpredictable limit to its total HD affected, and it'll hit the lowest-priority targets first. So you're at best getting things two levels below you, and given the tendency of monsters to have more HD than CR, probably worse, which means you should be defeating those things effortlessly, anyway. Then add in that it's got a valuable material component.

EDIT: I misread; it's 9 HD creatures that are unaffected. So it's actually only things three levels or more below you, which is even worse.

[ericgrau]

I missed the 9 HD part. Not the greatest for a sorcerer then. Still would pick disintegrate then for utility and less immunity. I have hit as mini-boss with resilient sphere before and basically won the fight even though I was the lowest level party member. Depends on the foe.

Ya if you're up against one tough foe, he's often going to save, have SR and/or be immune. If it's multiple weaker foes, you're better off with a different spell for crowds. Single target spells aren't that great in general. Against a lone foe it's better to buff the party, use a no-save debuff, or etc. Even do some direct damage if it's reliable (no SR, no save and/or etc.). Sometimes you roll a 20 and a boss rolls a 1, he isn't immune and the fight is anticlimatic leading to a cheesed off DM thread, but that's far from the norm.

[Tulya]

For in-combat disabling, Heightened Stinking Cloud generally covers your Fortitude-based disabling by itself, in addition to being AoE and offering vision control. Since Baleful Polymorph, Finger of Death, and Flesh to Stone don't really offer any better typing/immunity coverage over Stinking Cloud, if you were only going to take one spell, I'd suggest Disintegrate for its extra coverage and utility.

Baleful Polymorph is extremely iconic and flavorful, though, and it's great fun for everyone for different reasons. If you've already got staples like Teleport and Wall of Force that you're happy with, Baleful Polymorph is nice to grab regardless of need.

[holywhippet]

Break enchantment absolutely does not work on flesh to stone.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#fifthLevelSorcererWizardS pells


Break Enchantment: Frees subjects from enchantments, alterations, curses, and petrification.

Rules as written - break enchantment can undo petrification. To be honest I think they just didn't bother adjusting the text from 3.0 but RAW is RAW.

[Chronos]

They didn't bother adjusting the text from 3.0 because they had no intention of changing it. In 3.0 and 3.5, it has the same wording, with the same intention: It works on instantaneous effects, and it sometimes works on undispellable effects depending on the spell level.

[ericgrau]

The specific text trumps the summary text though.

[Rijan_Sai]

The specific text trumps the summary text though.

Yes, it does:

Break Enchantment
Abjuration
Level: Brd 4, Clr 5, Luck 5, Pal 4, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: Up to one creature per level, all within 30 ft. of each other
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No

This spell frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses. Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect. For each such effect, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level, maximum +15) against a DC of 11 + caster level of the effect. Success means that the creature is free of the spell, curse, or effect. For a cursed magic item, the DC is 25.

If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower*.

If the effect comes from some permanent magic item break enchantment does not remove the curse from the item, but it does frees the victim from the item’s effects.



Flesh to Stone
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

The subject, along with all its carried gear, turns into a mindless, inert statue. If the statue resulting from this spell is broken or damaged, the subject (if ever returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities. The creature is not dead, but it does not seem to be alive either when viewed with spells such as deathwatch.

Only creatures made of flesh are affected by this spell.

Material Component
Lime, water, and earth.


Seems pretty clear to me!

*To my knowledge, there are no instantaneous effects that can be dispelled by Dispel Magic, so I would presume this to be a separate clause...I could be wrong, however, and that may be exactly what it's talking about.

[Chronos]

It's not that instantaneous effects can't be dispelled. It's that dispelling them doesn't do anything, because they're already dispelled. Dispelling a spell causes its duration to end. An instantaneous spell's duration ends instantaneously.