A Shadowcaster suggestion.

[Marlowe]

Continuing my fascination with a class I have never played but would like to see more of, I propose the following "fix" to the Shadowcaster:

See that "Uses of mystery per day" table on ToM page 113? Forget it. Ignore it. It doesn't exist. You just had a bad dream and imagined it. Like those Highlander and Matrix sequels. Instead imagine the following rule;

Whenever a Shadowcaster uses a Mystery, make a Concentration Check. The DC equals 10+(Mystery levelx4). You may not take 10 on this check, even if you possess a feat, item, or ability that would normally enable you to.

If the check is successful, the Mystery takes effect, and you may use that Mystery again today, making the check again each time.

If the check is failed, the Mystery still takes effect; but you may not use that Mystery again until you rest for 8 hours and meditate for 15 minutes. You may continue to use any other Mysteries you have not failed the check for that day.

This check is as well as, not in place of any Concentration check required to cast defensively or in case of distracting circumstances.

Thoughts?

[The Random NPC]

At a guess, it'll probably run into some of the same problems as Truenaming. Namely that the DC increases faster than your bonus.

[Extra Anchovies]

This breaks with Item Familiars, and it breaks with custom competence items, and it breaks hard with both in play.

[Gemini476]

This scales slower than Truenaming does. However, Concentration is IIRC also easier to boost than Truespeak is.

All this on a class that has two prestige classes that let it Theurge 16 levels with arcane spellcasters.

This seems pretty breakable, especially since those mysteries can get pretty powerful. Seriously, it's a DC 44 check for at-will Time Stop.

[Marlowe]

As I understand it, the problem with Truenaming is that you need to pass those checks to get your powers working at all, whereas this is passing a check to get extra uses of your powers.

Let me drop some more details.Let's just imagine a Shadowcaster with maxed Concentration, Con 14, and no particular attempt to optimize the concentration skill.

At level one, as written, he gets to use his one 1st level mystery once a day. That was easy.
Using this, he's still have that use guaranteed, plus a 65% chance of a second use, and better than a 35% chance of a third use or more.

At level ten, as written, he'd get 2 uses each of his 1st, 2nd, and 3rd-level Mysteries, and 1 use a day of his 4th and 5ths.
Using this system, he'd still have one use guaranteed for all, and his chance of getting a second use would be:
-100% for his 1st level mysteries (essentially, they'd now be at will)
-85% for his 2nd levels (maybe +65% of a third or more use)
-70% for his 3rd levels (49% chance of 3 or more uses)
-50% for his 4ths (25% for a third use)
-30% for his 5ths (9% for a third use)

Granted you might get unlucky.



This breaks with Item Familiars, and it breaks with custom competence items, and it breaks hard with both in play.

I was afraid of that. It's that sort of thing I don't think about enough.

Maybe, instead of a Concentration check, make it a Shadowcaster level check against a DC of 10+Mystery level?

[Xuldarinar]

Well, lets analyze this.

Mystery Level Concentration Check Concentration Skill at Level*
Fundamentals DC 10 4
1st DC 14 4
2nd DC 18 6
3rd DC 22 8
4th DC 26 10
5th DC 30 12
6th DC 34 14
7th DC 38 16
8th DC 42 18
9th DC 46 20
*What your concentration skill will be upon acquiring the ability to cast that level of mystery.

Do we see a problem here? I see a few.


1. You are requiring skill points be dumped into concentration. Granted, if they want 9th level mysteries they will need an intelligence score of at least 19, but still the mandatory tax is not necessary.

2. Lets look at this from 1st level, where you'll have a concentration skill of up to 4.

Fundamental minimum roll: 6 (75%)
1st level mystery minimum roll: 10 (55%)


3. Lets look at this from 20th level, where you'll have a concentration skill up to 23.

Fundamental minimum roll: 1 (100%)
1st level mystery minimum roll: 1 (100%)
2nd level mystery minimum roll: 1 (100%)
3rd level mystery minimum roll: 1 (100%)
4th level mystery minimum roll: 3 (90%)
5th level mystery minimum roll: 7 (70%)
6th level mystery minimum roll: 11 (50%)
7th level mystery minimum roll: 15 (30%)
8th level mystery minimum roll: 19 (10%)
9th level mystery minimum roll: 23 (0%)



Edit: I recant my previous analysis that this is bad and edited it away. Thinking it over, this is actually quite powerful. Shadowcaster could always use a power boost. Im not sure how I feel about this exactly but, it is an improvement provided one invests the concentration.

[The Random NPC]

As I understand it, the problem with Truenaming is that you need to pass those checks to get your powers working at all, whereas this is passing a check to get extra uses of your powers.

Let me drop some more details.Let's just imagine a Shadowcaster with maxed Concentration, Con 14, and no particular attempt to optimize the concentration skill.

At level one, as written, he gets to use his one 1st level mystery once a day. That was easy.
Using this, he's still have that use guaranteed, plus a 65% chance of a second use, and better than a 35% chance of a third use or more.

At level ten, as written, he'd get 2 uses each of his 1st, 2nd, and 3rd-level Mysteries, and 1 use a day of his 4th and 5ths.
Using this system, he'd still have one use guaranteed for all, and his chance of getting a second use would be:
-100% for his 1st level mysteries (essentially, they'd now be at will)
-85% for his 2nd levels (maybe +65% of a third or more use)
-70% for his 3rd levels (49% chance of 3 or more uses)
-50% for his 4ths (25% for a third use)
-30% for his 5ths (9% for a third use)

Granted you might get unlucky.


Makes sense, I hadn't done the math, which is why I was guessing. Personally though, I think I prefer Mousferatu's fix of adding bonus Mystery uses based on Charisma.


I was afraid of that. It's that sort of thing I don't think about enough.

Maybe, instead of a Concentration check, make it a Shadowcaster level check against a DC of 10+Mystery level?

That won't work, ninth level Mysteries would be DC 19, but the level check would be 1d20+20. It'll probably be better to figure out how often you want them to be able to cast a given Mystery at a given level and work backwards.

[Gemini476]

One thing you should really really consider is the existence of the Steady Concentration feat in Races of Stone, which lets you take 10 on concentration checks even when threatened. Also, one level in Marshal lets you dump Con a bit more and focus on boosting your Charisma (which also boosts your save DCs). Also, one level of Exemplar gives you +4 to a skill and lets you skip the Steady Concentration feat since it gives you free Take 10s on Int+1 skills.

Complete Adventurer has the Tunic of Steady Spellcasting. Hope you like +5 competence to all Concentration checks.

Adding those together means that you're two levels behind in spellcasting, but your concentration checks are equal to 22+level+Cha+Con. Since the DCs scale at roughly 10+2*level (max 46), you'll be fine as long as you get at least +5 total from charisma and constitution.

Voila! At-will Time Stop and Black Labyrinth. At level twenty, you can cause more damage to the world than most Elder Evils as a standard action. Your Time Stop is even better than the Arcane Swordsage's, believe it or not, since they only have infinite move and swift actions while you have infinite actions of all types.

For more examples of how this breaks in half at high levels, look at Army of Shadows+Time Stop. Summoning infinite Elder Shadow Elementals as a standard action is pretty impressive.


(Also, if you get two +6 items you could probably skip the Exemplar level if that's worrying you. Feats like Skill Focus also help a bunch, as do racial traits that boost the skill or just pumping Con into high heaven through whatever method.)

[Xuldarinar]

Well, things to base the check on:

Concentration: You concentrate on it. The more powerful the mystery, the harder it is to concentrate upon.

Preform (Dance): Altering the flavor a bit, the shadowcaster becomes a casting class routed in dance. Their magic dependent upon the movements of their body as opposed to merely the gestures of one's hands. Would be needed to be added as a class skill. The 'Shadowdancer' would have an advantage in that their skill is reliant upon an ability score they should already possess. Their magic reliant on motions of the body, there is a certain elegance to it. Disadvantage? Still Mystery becomes a feat that makes no sense to be taken at all.

SC level: Your training as a shadowcaster improves your odds as well as your selection and max mystery level. This lowers odds a bit and discourages multiclassing.

Truespeach: Altering the flavor here, you use words to alter shadow. Would be needed to be added as a class skill. The 'shadowspeaker' shares an advantage the 'shadowdancer' in that their casting skill depends upon an ability score their class already uses. Disadvantage? No one wants truespeach and their mysteries couldn't be silent anymore. Whispered perhaps, so listen checks would need to be rolled to hear them, but otherwise they will be heard.

[The Random NPC]

One thing you should really really consider is the existence of the Steady Concentration feat in Races of Stone, which lets you take 10 on concentration checks even when threatened. Also, one level in Marshal lets you dump Con a bit more and focus on boosting your Charisma (which also boosts your save DCs). Also, one level of Exemplar gives you +4 to a skill and lets you skip the Steady Concentration feat since it gives you free Take 10s on Int+1 skills.

Complete Adventurer has the Tunic of Steady Spellcasting. Hope you like +5 competence to all Concentration checks.

Adding those together means that you're two levels behind in spellcasting, but your concentration checks are equal to 22+level+Cha+Con. Since the DCs scale at roughly 10+2*level (max 46), you'll be fine as long as you get at least +5 total from charisma and constitution.

Voila! At-will Time Stop and Black Labyrinth. At level twenty, you can cause more damage to the world than most Elder Evils as a standard action. Your Time Stop is even better than the Arcane Swordsage's, believe it or not, since they only have infinite move and swift actions while you have infinite actions of all types.

For more examples of how this breaks in half at high levels, look at Army of Shadows+Time Stop. Summoning infinite Elder Shadow Elementals as a standard action is pretty impressive.


(Also, if you get two +6 items you could probably skip the Exemplar level if that's worrying you. Feats like Skill Focus also help a bunch, as do racial traits that boost the skill or just pumping Con into high heaven through whatever method.)

The take 10 has already been disallowed, no method of taking 10 can be used including feats, items, or abilities.

[ILM]

Rather than going into the numbers, I'll just make a general comment on your thought process. What you're doing, in effect, is giving Shadowcrafters more mysteries per day. I can only assume it's because you think they don't have enough (which is fair). I think that if you feel they need more mysteries, simply give them more mysteries - instead of introducing a dice-based mechanic that doesn't particularly fit the theme and forces players to either optimize their Concentration skill and break the game (hello 9th-level mysteries all day long if your check is high enough) or trudge along with the party with the same casting capacity as a Cha 9 sorcerer.

Want more mysteries? Start with doubling the numbers on table on page 113 and see how it goes.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

Bard 1/Shadowcaster 19

Undersong, a first level spell that replaces Concentration with Perform.

[peacenlove]

First of all a recharge magic variant here for shadowcasters that vastly increases the longevity of a shadowcaster. It is not unbalancing unless you stack buffs from (greater) shadow evocation or abuse summon shadow servant.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=7859199&postcount=152

Second of all we are looking at a +45 concentration modifier at level 17. 20 ranks + 3-4 constitution + 20 other sources and we are there.
Other sources may include soulmelds, custom items, or that robe (3rd eye?) that gives +10 from the get go, affiliations, UMD -> Divine insight etc etc.
Even at 1st level, with shape soulmeld I can have the required concentration to spam Mesmerising shade or voice of shadow

[Marlowe]

Thanks to those that responded, and I'm sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this. General consensus seems to be that the numbers work out bu that it's far too easy to exploit. Also won a bet with myself over whether somebody would post a spiel based on Steady Concentration without bothering to read the OP properly.:smallsmile:


Makes sense, I hadn't done the math, which is why I was guessing. Personally though, I think I prefer Mousferatu's fix of adding bonus Mystery uses based on Charisma.


I have to say I don't like that "fix". It's already clumsy enough that the Shadowcaster has to keep rack of a casting pool for each individual power, but the fix makes that even worse by adding a separate "bonus mysteries per spell level" pool on top of everything else. It looks and feels like a mechanic from a completely different class patched over the top.

The "fix" also changes the order of bonus feats, meaning all sorts of problems with compatibility.


Well, lets analyze this.


1. You are requiring skill points be dumped into concentration. Granted, if they want 9th level mysteries they will need an intelligence score of at least 19, but still the mandatory tax is not necessary.


OK. This strikes me as the strangest criticism. I had assumed that people playing casters (of which the SC is one) would invest heavily in Concentration as a matter of course. The exception being Bards w/ Melodic Casting. Are you saying that this isn't the case? Do you normally see casters played without heavy investment in the Concentration skill? If so, how does that work out?

[gorfnab]

One tweak that I've allowed in my games is just doubling the mystery uses per day.

[Marlowe]

I'm thinking that might be the simplest and best solution, to be honest.

I'm surprised that nobody seems to have spotted one little kink in my initial suggestion that I didn't realise until recently:


See that "Uses of mystery per day" table on ToM page 113? Forget it. Ignore it. It doesn't exist. You just had a bad dream and imagined it. Like those Highlander and Matrix sequels

Granted I didn't word it in a terribly serious manner; except the level-dependent division between Apprentice, Initiate, and Master mysteries that table is the only thing in the class description that ties maximum mystery level to Shadowcaster level. Without it there's nothing stopping you getting access to a 3rd level Mystery as early as level 3, or a 2nd level mystery at level 2, with all the consequence to PRC requirements and the like that that would entail.

[(Un)Inspired]

Continuing my fascination with a class I have never played but would like to see more of, I propose the following "fix" to the Shadowcaster:

See that "Uses of mystery per day" table on ToM page 113? Forget it. Ignore it. It doesn't exist. You just had a bad dream and imagined it. Like those Highlander and Matrix sequels. Instead imagine the following rule;

Whenever a Shadowcaster uses a Mystery, make a Concentration Check. The DC equals 10+(Mystery levelx4). You may not take 10 on this check, even if you possess a feat, item, or ability that would normally enable you to.

If the check is successful, the Mystery takes effect, and you may use that Mystery again today, making the check again each time.

If the check is failed, the Mystery still takes effect; but you may not use that Mystery again until you rest for 8 hours and meditate for 15 minutes. You may continue to use any other Mysteries you have not failed the check for that day.

This check is as well as, not in place of any Concentration check required to cast defensively or in case of distracting circumstances.

Thoughts?


You got a problem with Highlander II: The Quickening?

[Marlowe]

Obviously I don't. Because it, its 0% Rotten Tomatoes rating, its 1/2 a star rating from Roger Ebert, and its 2 out of 10 IGN rating are just the result of a mass delusion. As previously stated, it never happened.

[(Un)Inspired]

Obviously I don't. Because it, its 0% Rotten Tomatoes rating, its 1/2 a star rating from Roger Ebert, and its 2 out of 10 IGN rating are just the result of a mass delusion. As previously stated, it never happened.

Hehe yeah. One of those alien visitation dreams.

[Marlowe]

Extra-Terrestrial powers are attempting to debase our culture by implanting false memories of terrible sequels ruining the reputation of promising film franchises. I like this theory.

Ironic that Aliens itself should be arguably amongst the victims. Obviously, Scott and Cameron were on to something that someone doesn't want us to know.

[peacenlove]

OK. This strikes me as the strangest criticism. I had assumed that people playing casters (of which the SC is one) would invest heavily in Concentration as a matter of course. The exception being Bards w/ Melodic Casting. Are you saying that this isn't the case? Do you normally see casters played without heavy investment in the Concentration skill? If so, how does that work out?


I do. Most of my characters invest in hide rather than concentration.
Shadowcasters do not have 1 round action mysteries, no mysteries with a Concentration duration.
Due to their natural stealth, the dark stalker feat and their mysteries not having any components, if you do not use attack mysteries, you are undetected. Even if you are detected, you will be usually the last to be targeted from the party. Lack of said components protect you from readied actions made to disrupt spellcasting (no components to observe - no trigger)
You have access to very good defenses in wand/scroll form, such as flicker.
Supernatural abilities are exempt from disruption, so in a grapple you could always cast your fundamentals and favored mysteries (if you didn't take anklets of translocation).

Gish characters spend one feat slot for Shadowy caster and designate a space with total cover (like the ground), due to the incomplete wording of the feat.

You can afford to keep your concentration high enough to avoid mishaps on bad weather / riding and spend the points elsewhere.

[The Random NPC]

I think I remember someone suggesting changing the uses per day into uses per encounter, no idea if that's balanced though.

[Gemini476]

I think I remember someone suggesting changing the uses per day into uses per encounter, no idea if that's balanced though.

Well, not everything gets broken. Especially at low levels.

At higher levels it gets hilarious, though. Black Labyrinth (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a)is the gift that just keeps giving.