Temporary Revival from a Dying Condition?

[Duke of Urrel]

I have three rules-related questions that I believe go beyond the scope of the RAW thread.

My first question is: Can temporary Hit Points revive a creature in a dying condition, restoring it to consciousness and enabling it to act, at least until the temporary Hit Points disappear? For example, suppose your current Hit-Point level is -5 and a third-level cleric casts the Aid spell on you, so that you receive 8 temporary Hit Points. Do you regain consciousness and become able to act, or do you simply gain 8 more chances to stabilize before you die?

My second question is similar. Can Hit Points gained through a Constitution increase revive a creature in a dying condition, restoring it to consciousness and enabling it to act, at least until the Constitution score returns to normal? For example, suppose you are a fourth-level elven wizard, your current Hit-Point level is -8, and a 12th-level wizard casts the Polymorph spell on you, so that you change into a hill giant, raise your Constitution score from 11 to 19, and gain 16 Hit Points. You also heal Hit Points as if from one night's rest, so that you gain four more Hit Points, but this alone would not have been enough to revive you. Do you regain consciousness and become able to act, or do you simply gain 16 more chances to stabilize before you die?

My third question is also similar. Can Hit Points lost through a Constitution decrease cause a creature to fall unconscious and start dying, so that it may die unless its Constitution score returns to normal? May this change even cause a creature to die immediately? For example, suppose you are a ninth-level cleric, your current Hit-Point level is 10, and a ninth-level wizard casts the Baleful Polymorph spell on you, so that you change into a toad, lower your Constitution score from 14 to 11, and lose 18 Hit Points. Do you lose consciousness and start dying? Or suppose your Hit-Point level was only 5 before you changed. When you are changed into a toad, does your current Hit-Point level drop to -13, killing you instantly? Incidentally, does the possibility of instant death give you a +4 bonus to save against the Baleful Polymorph spell? Or should we banish both the possibility of starting to die and the possibility of instant death, arguing that some corollary of the rule that you always get at least one Hit Point per level, regardless of low Constitution, saves you from death or dying in this case?

What do you think happens in these three cases? More importantly, what do you think should happen?

[Psyren]

To answer your questions we first have to talk about the difference between temporary hit points and bonus hit points. The former comes from effects that say they grant temp HP, like False Life or Vigor. The latter typically comes from effects that temporarily modify your Con score, like Rage or Bear's Endurance.

For example, say I am a Psion at 1 HP. I use Vigor to gain 5 temporary hit points, putting my current total at 6 (1 regular, 5 temp.) I then get shot with an arrow for 5 damage, losing all my temp HP, but win the fight. After the fight, my Vigor ends, but nothing else happens to me - I've already lost the 5 HP from the arrow so I don't lose anything else.

To contrast, I am a Barbarian at 3 HP. Let's say I Rage and gain +6 Con, granting me 3 bonus hit points, putting my current total at 6 HP. (3 regular, 3 bonus.) I also get hit with an arrow that does 5 damage, dropping me to 1 HP. Then I win the fight. When my rage ends, the game says "how many HP did you borrow from that rage?" I answer "3 HP." The game says "Okay, pay up." I lose 3 additional HP because the rage is over, putting me at -2. I am now dying, unconscious and have to roll to stabilize unless the party can save me.

Therefore Temp HP are almost always better than Bonus HP because you can't lose them twice. You can either lose them by taking damage or by the effect that granted them coming to an end, but not both. Bonus HP meanwhile are not lost first, so if you take damage you are effectively losing them twice, which can result in trouble for you.

Both are treated like current hit points however (RC 72), so both can keep you conscious and you will stop bleeding out while positive ("in the black.")

So to answer your questions:

1) No matter how you got to positive HP (temp HP, bonus HP or true healing), while positive you stop dying. The dying condition is defined in D&D as being at -1 to -9 current HP. So yes, temp HP will return a dying creature to consciousness, stop them from bleeding out and allow them to act.

2) As above, bonus HP will also return a dying creature to consciousness. However this is more dangerous, because if they take damage they are at risk of losing the bonus HP twice and dropping too far, thus dying instantly when the effect ends.

3) Yes to both parts - a Con decrease causes HP loss immediately and can even cause instant death if the creature is weak or injured enough.

[Duke of Urrel]

Thank you, Psyren, for your very thorough answer, including a reference to the Rules Compendium!

Now, does anybody think the possibility of death by Constitution loss makes some already powerful spells too powerful, or robs them of some of their flavor? My feeling is that the Baleful Polymorph spell is deadly enough without the possibility of death by Constitution loss. Moreover, I think it's cool to change somebody into a toad, but somehow less cool to change somebody into a dead toad.

What do you think?

[Psyren]

BP specifically makes you retain your own hit points, which overrides the typical result of changing one's Con modifier because specific trumps general. Its Con has no effect on its HP unless it fails the will save 24 hours later.

[Telok]

In my games I run a house rule that negative Con changes only affect your maximum hit points. I find that it makes hp tracking easier when you have intersections of dispelled magic items, buffs, poisons, and temporary stat penalties all going at once. Another reason I do this is so that when a character has fewer hp than their level a single point of Con loss isn't a death sentence.

Note that this benefits monsters just as much, if not more, than PCs. But nobody ever complains.

Edit: Oh, and Bestow Curse doesn't do HD*3 damage anymore on a failed WIll save.

[Flickerdart]

When you're at such a low HP count that a slight CON change would kill you, for all intents and purposes you might already be dead. Why waste a Baleful Polymorph when a Scorching Ray might do?

[Duke of Urrel]

Thank you for your responses!

I will have to consider your solution, Telok, because it is simple, and simplicity is a big advantage over the house rules that I am considering. However, I don't want a drop in Constitution to be too easy on a creature.

I am also tempted to follow Psyren's advice. The description of the Baleful Polymorph spell does indeed prohibit any change in Hit Points, and the principle "specific trumps general" must be upheld. So maybe this rule alone means that a barbarian turned into a toad mustn't lose any Hit Points. However, I note that most other Polymorph spells, including Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, and Shapechange, refer back to the text of the Alter Self spell, which also prohibits any change in Hit Points. If I interpreted both the Alter Self rule and the Baleful Polymorph rule in the same way, then I wouldn't be allowed to make changes in any polymorphed creature's Hit Points merely because of changes in its Constitution score. The creature would still heal Hit Points as if by resting for one night, but that would be all, because that's the only explicit way that any other Polymorph spell modifies the Alter Self rule. Indeed, I had to learn from "Rules of the Game" (and was surprised to learn) that a change in Constitution is now supposed to make a difference in a polymorphed creature's Hit-Point level.

So … I don't know. Can I just choose to interpret a rule one way in one case and another way in another case? After all, I'm considering my own house rules here anyway…

[Flickerdart]

Rules of the Game is basically the devs' house rules. It frequently conflicts with the game's actual, printed rules.

You could make Constitution like any other ability score, and simply say that temporary modifiers don't count for changing your HP total. Give the barbarian temp HP equal to twice/thrice/four times his level (as appropriate) to make up for the nerf, and go forth.

[SiuiS]

#2 and #3 are both Yes. #1 is usually up for DM interpretation. I have once – once – hit temporary hp 15 and regular hp -10 at the exact same instant. The DM refused to rule on it being some mysterious event though.

Psyren is otherwise correct.

[Duke of Urrel]

… I have once – once – hit temporary hp 15 and regular hp -10 at the exact same instant. The DM refused to rule on it being some mysterious event though.

I'm curious to know how this happened. Did a friendly cleric arrive just in time (or, depending upon the dungeon master's judgment, just too late)? Or did somebody ready the Aid spell for the event of your Hit-Point level dropping to -10?

***

I mentioned previously that I was thinking of some house rules of my own. Here's what I've come up with so far. I offer them as food for thought, idle entertainment, or target practice.

According to the description of the Polymorph Subschool on page 320 of the Player's Handbook v. 3.5 (2008):


The subject [of a Polymorph spell] retains its own Hit Points.

In this line, I interpret the phrase "Hit Points" to mean the number randomly generated by the subject's normal Hit Dice, disregarding the subject's Constitution modifier, which may change and may not be "retained" at all. I do this in accord with Skip Williams's advice in the article "Polymorphing (Part Three)" from the series The Rules of the Game (2004), which states:


Unlike previous versions of the D&D game, the subject's Hit Points change according to his new Constitution score. The subject's Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores revert to normal when resuming its normal form, which may prompt another change in Hit Points.

1. I faithfully apply this rule when a polymorphed subject's Constitution score is either raised above normal or lowered back to a score no lower than normal. When the subject's Constitution score drops back to a score no lower than normal, it loses as many Hit Points as it formerly gained, just as a barbarian does at the end of a rage, and the subject may start dying or even die immediately as a consequence.

2. However, when a polymorphed subject's Constitution score is either lowered below normal or raised back to a score no higher than normal, I apply a house rule of my own: The subject's Hit-Point level falls or rises in proportion to its Constitution score. In other words, if a creature's Constitution score is normally 16, but drops to 10 when it is polymorphed, then I multiply its Hit Points by 5/8, and when it returns to its normal form, I multiply its Hit Points by 8/5. Any resulting fraction is dropped, as usual.

3. The Shapechange spell allows its subject to reduce its Constitution score from above normal to below normal, or from below normal to above normal. Following my house rule, either change requires two operations, namely: in the first case, subtraction followed by proportional reduction of Hit Points; and in the second case, proportional increase followed by addition of Hit Points.

There we go. Fire away!

[Crake]

I'm curious to know how this happened. Did a friendly cleric arrive just in time (or, depending upon the dungeon master's judgment, just too late)? Or did somebody ready the Aid spell for the event of your Hit-Point level dropping to -10?

***

I mentioned previously that I was thinking of some house rules of my own. Here's what I've come up with so far. I offer them as food for thought, idle entertainment, or target practice.

According to the description of the Polymorph Subschool on page 320 of the Player's Handbook v. 3.5 (2008):



In this line, I interpret the phrase "Hit Points" to mean the number randomly generated by the subject's normal Hit Dice, disregarding the subject's Constitution modifier, which may change and may not be "retained" at all. I do this in accord with Skip Williams's advice in the article "Polymorphing (Part Three)" from the series The Rules of the Game (2004), which states:



1. I faithfully apply this rule when a polymorphed subject's Constitution score is either raised above normal or lowered back to a score no lower than normal. When the subject's Constitution score drops back to a score no lower than normal, it loses as many Hit Points as it formerly gained, just as a barbarian does at the end of a rage, and the subject may start dying or even die immediately as a consequence.

2. However, when a polymorphed subject's Constitution score is either lowered below normal or raised back to a score no higher than normal, I apply a house rule of my own: The subject's Hit-Point level falls or rises in proportion to its Constitution score. In other words, if a creature's Constitution score is normally 16, but drops to 10 when it is polymorphed, then I multiply its Hit Points by 5/8, and when it returns to its normal form, I multiply its Hit Points by 8/5. Any resulting fraction is dropped, as usual.

3. The Shapechange spell allows its subject to reduce its Constitution score from above normal to below normal, or from below normal to above normal. Following my house rule, either change requires two operations, namely: in the first case, subtraction followed by proportional reduction of Hit Points; and in the second case, proportional increase followed by addition of Hit Points.

There we go. Fire away!

Isn't it easier to just.. you know... have their hit points stay the same regardless, like the rules suggest, rather than having to go through a bunch of maths each time?

[Duke of Urrel]

Isn't it easier to just.. you know... have their hit points stay the same regardless, like the rules suggest, rather than having to go through a bunch of maths each time?

Psyren's solution has the advantage of simplicity, for sure.

But I like to be consistent when I interpret the rules. There would have to be a reason for me to interpret the description of the Baleful Polymorph spell differently from the description of the Alter Self spell. And as I've pointed out, the problem of instant death for a high-level subject with normally above-average Constitution who polymorphs into a creature with merely average Constitution exists not only for the Baleful Polymorph spell, but for the Polymorph spell, the Polymorph Any Object spell, and the Shapechange spell. There may be reasons why anybody might want to turn into a small Animal in order to run away and hide, or to turn into an elf as a disguise. Either transformation would be dangerous for a high-level character with above-average Constitution and a low Hit-Point level.

That doesn't seem right. Why should a high-level, but wimpy wizard who turns into a rat or an elf risk nothing, whereas a high-level and bulky barbarian who turns into an elf risks instant death if her Hit-Point level is low?

[Chronos]

Quoth Psyren:

Therefore Temp HP are almost always better than Bonus HP because you can't lose them twice.
This depends on the duration. For short durations, you're correct. But if you've got a source that lasts all day, such as a persisted spell, bonus HP from increased Con are much better, because you can heal them back. I found this noticeable when I was playing a cleric that persisted Divine Power: The extra HP were nice, I guess, but they were only there for the first combat of the day.

That same cleric also once found himself in a situation where, if he stepped into an antimagic field, he would die instantly. He had Righteous Might running (which gives +2 Con) at level 16, and got down to exactly 6 HP. This was especially relevant in that the only direction to run from the encounter (which would otherwise have been the smart thing to do in that situation) led directly through an antimagic field.