Drider Ninja Assassin Arcane Trickster Unseen Seer Gestalt Multiclass Madness

[Someonelse]

If this isn't the right forum for character optimization I'd like to apologize and request a redirection.

I was just wondering if anyone had any ideas or suggestions for my latest character. I was playing a gestalt game a while ago with a rogue wizard and I had some awesome build plans for him, but the DM ended up having to move at the last minute and now he lives too far away to run a game for us. Now, another friend offered to run a game and at the last minute announced it would be gestalt.

My regular group loves power gaming, forget game balance, let's break the system, patch it up with duct tape and keep playing.

So, I checked and the DM is totally fine with prestige class dipping and mixing, we are also allowed to multiclass racial classes from Savage Tide as long as we at least have the first level in the class.

So my build is Drider / Ninja. Right now only Drider 1 / Ninja 1, the game just started and we've only played one session. But this DM usually likes to play full length campaigns, last time he DMed we got up to 18th level before things wrapped up. So I'm planning my build.

Now, my character concept (without going into his backstory too much, he has a long backstory, I'll try to keep this quick) is that he was a drow wizard who became a drider, ran away from home, wandered the underdark for a time before falling in with an assassin's guild. They taught him the art of assassination and he leveled up as an assassin. Then he learned of the chaotic good drow god, I forget their name, and he shifted to Chaotic Neutral. He learned to idealize the CG alignment and when the guild assigned him a particularly evil assassination job he refused. They got mad and sent a necromancer after him, the necromancer drained him of levels and abilities and left him for dead. He barely survived and went to the surface world to get away and that's where the game begins. So, for this reason I'm hoping I can talk the DM into letting me take the Assassin class with further need of prerequisites like evil alignment and killing someone for no good reason, since he is trying to be a good guy.

So my build idea then (if the DM allows it, I emailed him but haven't heard back) would be Drider / Ninja to Lv5, then Drider / Assassin to Lv10, then Arcane Trickster / Unseen Seer to Lv20. To clarify, the group has long interpreted the wording in Savage Species' racial spells that say every hit die to work for non racial classes, so my drider ninja gains spells even on off levels where he wouldn't get spells due to him being a drider alone, since the ninja is giving him hit dice he gets spells. So, with this build, at 10th level I would be a Lv10 Wizard and Lv5 Assassin. Then with US and AT I could level up both wizard and assassin spells so that by Lv20 I would be Wiz 20 and Ass 15.

Also, Unseen Seer and Arcane Trickster stagger their sudden strike / sneak attack bonuses, so I get a bonus damage die every level from 10 to 20, resulting in a total extra damage of 16d6, not counting the extra damage I get when I use the US advanced learning to get Hunter's Eye for another +6d6.

So, any thoughts, comments or suggestions?
I would appreciate it.
Thanks!

[Nightraiderx]

Why ninja? Assuming 3.5, spelltheif is a suitable and better replacement. and then you can also steal spell power from your enemies.
Master spelltheif ties up all your arcane caster levels into one nice high number, so now your small assassin spell list has decent staying power.

Do not bother with sudden strike for it is an inferior sneak attack and stack just sneak attack dice.

[ericgrau]

Do not bother with sudden strike for it is an inferior sneak attack and stack just sneak attack dice.
I wonder why this keeps spreading. Quickened greater invisibility negates any sudden strike drawback and compensates 10 times over. Is everyone assuming the 15 minute adventuring day only applies to wizards? Or that every rogue has some kind of uber optimization trick that insures he sneak attacks every round and doesn't get one shotted in response in spite of his hp? Or that every rogue is level 20 perhaps and buys it in item form? Or is it just b/c people heard some other guy say it and zomg one class feature is strictly worse than what the other class gets and I don't care about all the other class features cuz I have something to poke at and this is the internet?

[animewatcha]

1 level of warshaper..

[Someonelse]

Why ninja? Assuming 3.5, spelltheif is a suitable and better replacement. and then you can also steal spell power from your enemies.
Master spelltheif ties up all your arcane caster levels into one nice high number, so now your small assassin spell list has decent staying power.

Do not bother with sudden strike for it is an inferior sneak attack and stack just sneak attack dice.

I'm not interested in Spell Thief. I'm aware of it, but I like playing a heroic Ninja. I like the flavor. I like the ghost step ability and the jump ability that they have, I like the whole batman sniper character concept (I've played a few chaotic good or neutral ninjas with similar personalities). It's a role playing choice, now I'm considering what roll playing choices to make.

What's nice about the Assassin is that they get sneak attack. And due to the way the damage dice come I will get 6d6 at Lv 10 rather than 5d6. The only thing the Ninja gets after level 5 that I care about at all is the ethereal ghost step but that isn't really all that useful, it's just kinda cool, so I'm willing to trade that for an extra sneak attack die. I do prefer sneak attack, I agree it's better, but sudden strike works just as well for my purposes, I hide and use a composite longbow, I hardly ever flank.

I was originally going to do the dual prestige bit with US and AT at Lv6 but then I would have to delay the rest of the drider class and apply both classes to my wizard caster levels and US comes with a caveat that you're effective caster level drops as low as 3 levels (at level 9), and I didn't want that on my wizard levels. So I decided to take some assassin levels to get some mildly useful extra spell casting that I won't really care much about nerfing. Then apply US to assassin and AT applies to wizard. The only drawback to that is that I wanted to use US to get Hunter's Eye, but even at CL 10th I can only use it 3/day plus a couple more for high Int (not to mention that by that time I would be at a -1 CL for everything except divination spells, which would be +1 CL). I'd like to be able to use Hunter's Eye more (@ Lv18 I'd have +20d6 combined sudden strike & sneak attack), but I don't want to apply US to my wizard levels. Unless I only take two levels, even though it is allowed by my DM I kinda don't like to do that because optimizing is fun but that begins to push the limit of what's acceptable in my opinion. That said, I am seriously considering only taking two levels in US. I'm also thinking about doing it at Lv6. I really like this build because at level 20 I can potentially deal +22d6 sudden strike / sneak attack, not to mention all the other damage bonuses I will have acquired by then. And AT let's me do that anyway a few times per day, I don't even have to hide.

[atemu1234]

I fail to see how Sudden Strike is in any way different than Sneak Attack. It's even mentioned as qualifying for feats and PrCs the same as Sneak Attack, and has the same effects, so why is it lesser :smallconfused:?

[Someonelse]

I fail to see how Sudden Strike is in any way different than Sneak Attack. It's even mentioned as qualifying for feats and PrCs the same as Sneak Attack, and has the same effects, so why is it lesser :smallconfused:?

Because Sneak Attack also works when flanking. Sudden Strike specifically states that it only works when their target is denied their dexterity bonus to AC.

[Someonelse]

Ok, I got it now
Drider / Ninja to Lv5
Drider / Unseen Seer to Lv7
Then Assassin / Arcane Trickster through to Lv17
If the game even goes that high I'll top off levels 18 through 20 with Drider / Ninja

I found this feat and ran it by the DM, he was cool with it.


http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Expanded_Learning_%283.5e_Feat%29
Expanded Learning [General] Prerequisites: 1st level in a class that grants the Advanced Learning class features.Benefit: Whenever you gain the Advanced Learning class feature you can learn two spells instead of just one, in addition, if you have the Advanced Learning class feature you may pick one of those extra spells from any school of magic each time you get said class feature, however it must still come from the same spell list (sorcerer/wizard, cleric, bard etc).

So I'll use the advanced learning from unseen seer to get hunter's eye and then use this feat to grab take Arrow Storm.

I noticed that Assassin and Arcane Trickster stagger their sneak attack bonuses. A first level assassin gets sneak attack but the arcane trickster doesn't get it until level 2. So, I gestalt the two together and I get +1d6 sneak attack every level for ten levels. :smallbiggrin:

The other stuff they do is cool too. I like Impromptu Sneak Attack. And the assassin's death attack might come in handy some time.

I get poison use from ninja and assassin and as a drider I can produce poison with my saliva. Is there a feat or something that would let me just put the tip of an arrow in my mouth and spit on it to poison it before shooting it?

[Nightraiderx]

I wonder why this keeps spreading. Quickened greater invisibility negates any sudden strike drawback and compensates 10 times over. Is everyone assuming the 15 minute adventuring day only applies to wizards? Or that every rogue has some kind of uber optimization trick that insures he sneak attacks every round and doesn't get one shotted in response in spite of his hp? Or that every rogue is level 20 perhaps and buys it in item form? Or is it just b/c people heard some other guy say it and zomg one class feature is strictly worse than what the other class gets and I don't care about all the other class features cuz I have something to poke at and this is the internet?

There aren't too many prestige classes that use sudden strike, I like the added flanking bonus, for at low levels the usual party composition would have a fighter tanking hits. Also, I usually prefer spelltheif for the steal spell trick and master spelltheif for cl casting and the OP wasn't interested in that. Was there any other reason you wanted to get the ki pool other than the invisible stuff? Anyways I do know of other feats that will make your sneak attack and poison work well together. I'll try digging them up.

Drow of the Underdark Feats:

Terrifying Strike - needs intimidate but it's essentially a free +2 Dc for poisoned sneak attacks for most enemies, loose 1d6 sneak attack
Venemous Strike- trade 1d6 Sneak attack for +2 Dc on a poisoned weapon.
Poisoned Spell - poison your spell damage as well with this metamagic.

[animewatcha]

You DM is allowing dual prestiging? I thought that was heavily a no-no in UA.

[Jack_Simth]

Someonelse:
You're MAD man, MAD.

...

Specifically, "Multiple Attribute Dependant". That's a problem. You'll need Dex & Wis for AC, Con for HP, and Int for casting (although you can dump Dex a bit if you feel like it). Three and a half needed stats.

Might I suggest the Sorcerer casting option instead of the Wizard casting option, then (eventually) grab the Ascetic Mage Feat from Complete Adventurer? Costs you a feat, sure, but trades Wis to AC into Cha to AC. That'd get you down to Dex, Cha, and Con (and you can dump Dex a bit if you feel like it). Two and a half needed stats. Alternately, there's a few ways to switch it to Int, but they're harder.

If you do go Sorcerer, also pick up Ancestral Relic from the Book of Exalted Deeds - that'll get you a custom Runestaff (Magic Item Compendium) with which you can reshuffle the abilities on a little bit of notice with the help of a Consecrate spell from the party Cleric. Tack on Versatile Spellcaster (Races of the Dragon), and you'll even be half a spell level ahead of the wizard in spell access, while still having the ability to reshuffle many of your spells every day.

I would, of course, suggest focusing on things that allow you to apply sneak attack damage - Ray of Frost, Acid Splash, Scorching Ray, the Orb line (Spell Compendium), et cetera.

[Someonelse]

Yeah, I'm a bit more restrictive when I DM, but this group in general likes power gaming. The DM for this game has plenty of nasty monsters and other challenges up his sleeve, so we will have no shortage of difficulty. Like I said, we like to break the system, patch it up with duct tape and keep playing.

[Someonelse]

Thanks, I do normally prefer sorcerers. But the wizard levels are just gravy. This character is a long bow sniper, pure and simple. He hides and shoots arrows for as much damage as possible. Everything he does is some extension of that. He needs Dex for his bow, if his AC becomes an issue he is doing something wrong. He needs Int for his Ninja skills. Being a Drider just compliments his ninja skills and since he gets some magic with it I chose wizard because he already uses Int for his ninja skills. Wis bonus to AC is just gravy and this character has no use for Cha.
Mechanically, this character is all about putting holes in things from less than 30ft away and remaining unseen.

[ericgrau]

There aren't too many prestige classes that use sudden strike, I like the added flanking bonus, for at low levels the usual party composition would have a fighter tanking hits. Also, I usually prefer spelltheif for the steal spell trick and master spelltheif for cl casting and the OP wasn't interested in that. Was there any other reason you wanted to get the ki pool other than the invisible stuff? Anyways I do know of other feats that will make your sneak attack and poison work well together. I'll try digging them up.

Drow of the Underdark Feats:

Terrifying Strike - needs intimidate but it's essentially a free +2 Dc for poisoned sneak attacks for most enemies, loose 1d6 sneak attack
Venemous Strike- trade 1d6 Sneak attack for +2 Dc on a poisoned weapon.
Poisoned Spell - poison your spell damage as well with this metamagic.
He's gestalt though and has sneak attack too. And it may be possible to multiclass both.