Elemental Alignments

[Thy Dungeonman]

More than one person around here has had the same notion - that the elements of the Inner Planes can be used to create an alignment system the same as good/evil/law/chaos/neutral do on the Outer Planes. This thread is for discussing if you have done anything with this concept, what you think of it, and possibilities it presents for interesting gaming.

[Thy Dungeonman]

I used this once, but didn't do anything with the idea of morality. It was just about some metaphysic situation. If elements can represent an aspect of a character's soul, or mind, or ethos, what would they mean? What is behaving fiery? Watery?

(What follows assumes the classic Great Wheel cosmology of early D&D 2e) Unlike the Outer Planes, there's no neutral elemental plane. So if one is Neutral on an elemental axis, might you use a different term, like Ethereal or Prime? Neutral's probably still best, but it's' fun to ponder all this stuff.

How might this stuff work in a campaign setting? Could you plug it into Dark Sun, with its elemental clergy?

I have loved the Inner Planes for a while now. If I could do more with them, I would. I once made more playable 3e stats for ruvoka, have used mephits in campaigns a few times. I'd like to get vicarious thrizzles to hear what other people might do with them, even if they don't use the Elemental Alignment system.

[INoKnowNames]

Wasn't the Avatar a bit like this?

Firebending was destructive and whatnot, so used by the villains of the first series.
Earthbending was solid and forceful, used by the largest empires.
Waterbending was fluid and lucid, used by the resistance to the villains.
Airbending was free and even more fluid, used by the scattered tribes.

Though this dichotomy got lost with time, it seems like one that could be used, with Prime representing neutrality to either the Fire/Water spectrum or the Earth/Air spectrum.

[Thy Dungeonman]

So if Avatar had Positive and Negative energy elements and quasi/para/demi/whatevamental planes, what would they be like? I never watched that show.

[OldTrees1]

So if Avatar had Positive and Negative energy elements and quasi/para/demi/whatevamental planes, what would they be like? I never watched that show.

Probably life/death or growth/decay focused philosophies.

"Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars." vs "The bigger they are, the harder they fall."

Positive would be about a vivacious celebration of life in all its glory.
Negative would be about living so that you will be ready when your time comes.

Positive would be about enhancing our strengths so that we shine brighter.
Negative would be about acknowledging our weaknesses so we can deal with them.


PS:
For one campaign, I placed the Prime, the Inner Planes and the Outer Planes in the same 3D space and then locked the Inner Planes' orientation to the Outer Planes' orientation (the locking was artificial). That way I could have societies influenced by fixed pairs of planes (Inner, Outer). Of course, that required using a 3rd dimension to the Outer Planes.

[Jeff the Green]

I don't know if I'm the originator of the idea, but I think I brought it up. Here's what I posted in response to SiuS asking how it worked:




First off, I use sonofzeal's minimum intervention balance fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?211407-Minimal-Intervention-balance-fix-%28PEACH%29) for tier 2 and nerf tier 1 into oblivion (Artificers are an NPC class because it's illegal for them to leave a certain area, Clerics can't cast outside of hallowed ground, Druids and StP Erudites don't exist, and Archivists and Wizards take at least 10 minutes to cast a spell). That's not necessary but it explains some of the following.
Some outsiders* gain an elemental or positive or negative subtype.
Detect <element/energy> spells are added to basically everyone's list at level 1. It works just like detect evil, but can also detect elementals of the correct subtype.
Sorcerers have patrons, usually elementals but sometimes outsiders, who give them a fragment of their power in exchange for service, and they're beholden to the patron, its servants, and any creature of the same type with at least one subtype in common. They gain auras of their patron's subtypes as a Cleric. In exchange for this (and losing their Charisma SADness) they gain an appropriate bloodline feat as a bonus feat and the metamagic specialist ACF without giving up their familiar.
Certain other classes (e.g. pyromancer) also gain an element/energy aura, as well as Favored Souls and Clerics of a deity strongly tied to an element or energy. For example, a cleric of Pelor (though I don't use Greyhawk deities) would ping on detect good, detect fire, and detect positive energy.


Or do you mean the whacked out alignment thing? Basically I just emphasize the alienness of outsiders (an archon is literally incapable of performing an Evil or Chaotic act, but Good is not always good or even comprehensible, and in the right circumstances it could be a vigilante as easily as a judge), ignore some of the text of the BoVD and BoED that explain that S&M isn't Evil in se nor abstention Good, they're just associated with such, and assign/reassign alignment based on the weirdness. Like a NE incarnate who deliberately and consistently refuses drugs may eventually be at risk of losing his class features. (I give warnings well ahead of time and try hard not to lay traps since it's not like normal D&D. I haven't gotten to do it all that much because I'm not up to running another PbP and my real-life group meets infrequently and does more of a beer-and-pretzels sort of game, so unfortunately I can't say definitively how well it works or give any good examples off the top of my head.

Oh, though I do change Law and Chaos a bit. Basically, they're about how you make decisions: Do you follow a code? You're Lawful. Do you obey your whims? You're chaotic. At one extreme, we have the modrons who, if you do something not covered by their programming will just ignore it (much more likely with the simple ones; basically doesn't happen with Primus) because they don't have a routine saying how to react. At the other we have the slaadi, who are as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it. Also just as likely to try to mate with it, eat it, or compose an epic about it in amphibrachic septameter. The only reason Chaotic characters shouldn't fall into Chaotic Stupid is that even though they might follow their whims, some pattern creates those whims; slaadi don't have a pattern and so their whims and behavior are utterly random.

*Well, outsiders in default D&D. I move things like the energons over to elemental; only things made of alignment stuff are outsiders. Things that are a mix, like most genies, stay put.

[Thy Dungeonman]

Jeff - That's some wild stuff, I imagine (slightly divorced from context) re: how you'd like to run a homebrewish campaign. I haven't been in D&D-ish forums much, not familiar with some of the jargon around here, but I think I mostly got it.

Old Trees - I feel like I saw somewhere a suggestion that even in 2e the Great Wheel cosmology was a simplification for mortal understanding of a much more overlapping actual structure to the multiverse. That being the case, your restructure wouldn't be too radical, but I have no idea if I'm remembering that right or where from. On second thought, my feedback to both of you guys seems too superficial to bother putting out there. Apologies, I'm not on all cylinders at the moment.

Re: the use of elemental alignments for outsiders. I was thinking it might be cool for native prime creatures to have all kinds of alignments, Outer Planar outsiders to only have the classic alignments, and Inner Planar outsiders to only have elemental alignments (functionally being neutral to spellcasting geared toward classic alignments).

But that would contradict a lot of stuff in the system as is, so it would be more radical than I'd normally prefer to get. I'm kind of fond of 2E Planar sourcebooks as originally conceived (though preferably with a more modern edition for play rules). Specifically, it seems some Inner Planar types have strong classic alignments (genies, for example) and some Outer Planar creatures have strong elemental associations (would seem silly not to allow elemental alignments to things with elemental subtypes).

So classic alignments - LG, NG, CG, LN, N, CN, LE, NE, NG. What are the planar alignments? There are three pairs of opposites there, so it could be a mess. Assuming +=positive energy, -=negative energy, E=earth, F=fire, A=air, W=water, N=neutral, we'd get: +AF, +AN, +AW, +NF, +NN, +NW, +EF, +EN, +EW, NAF, NAN, NAW, NNF, NNN, NNW, NEF, NEN, NEW, -AF, -AN, -AW, -NF, -NN, -NW, -EF, +EN and -EW.

What a mess. If you simplify if by leaving N out of all except the true N alignment, it could be less ugly to look at: +AF, +A, +AW, +F, +, +W, +EF, +E, +EW, AF, A, AW, F, N, W, EF, EN, EW, -AF, -A, -AW, -F, -, -W, -EF, +E and -EW. Also, if I'm not mistaken, with the exception of N those all correspond to existing Inner Planes, so you could use the plane name for the alignment. I'm "Salt" (-NW) aligned. In this instance I favor "Ethereal" for NNN, because it's the interstitial stuff between the Inner Planes and the Prime. Yes, no?

Then there's what they'd say about behavior and metaphysical qualities. That would be fun for the kind of weirdos who liked the "Paths of Enlightenment" from WoD's Sabbat sourcebooks, or like spending too much time on horoscopesque aspects of game stuff. Also, it would be cool to have personality guidelines for elementals beyond "burns stuff" or "rock smash," if you drew the elemental concepts more broadly.

[OldTrees1]

Old Trees - I feel like I saw somewhere a suggestion that even in 2e the Great Wheel cosmology was a simplification for mortal understanding of a much more overlapping actual structure to the multiverse. That being the case, your restructure wouldn't be too radical, but I have no idea if I'm remembering that right or where from.
I read an article on Mimir.net that had the 3rd Out Planes axis as magnitude of conviction. Basically there were 16 planes linking the 16 planes of the ring to the Outlands. (the Mimir.net has a lot of nice Planescape articles)



What a mess. If you simplify if by leaving N out of all except the true N alignment, it could be less ugly to look at: +AF, +A, +AW, +F, +, +W, +EF, +E, +EW, AF, A, AW, F, N, W, EF, EN, EW, -AF, -A, -AW, -F, -, -W, -EF, +E and -EW. Also, if I'm not mistaken, with the exception of N those all correspond to existing Inner Planes, so you could use the plane name for the alignment. I'm "Salt" (-NW) aligned. In this instance I favor "Ethereal" for NNN, because it's the interstitial stuff between the Inner Planes and the Prime. Yes, no?
I like the naming convention (and yes all 26 of those are elemental planes. link (http://mimir.net/mapinfinity/quasi.html).). For instance "-FA" would be "Fumes" I would use the Prime for NNN since the Ethereal is everywhere.

[Judge_Worm]

How would that work? I mean when it came down to fluff vs. crunch. Could a Watery Warlock use a flaming invocation?

Also my two cents on the alignment chart:
Ice | Air | Steam Smoke
Water | Wood | Fire
Ooze | Earth | Magma
With positive and negative being a separate spectrum altogether.
Looking something like this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Plans_d_existence_elementaires_ADD_planescape.svg/130px-Plans_d_existence_elementaires_ADD_planescape.svg. png
picture by Cdang via wikimedia commons

[atemu1234]

Each elemental alignment has a personality trait unrelated to Law/Chaos or Good/Evil.

Fire: Energetic, seeks power, consumes that in his way.
Water: Fluid, works around any obstacle, patient (DW reference!).
Earth: Strong, unyielding, in control.
Wind: Flighty, impatient, sometimes lazy, but often happy-go-lucky.

Positive/Negative I'd make a separate alignment axis.
Negative: Introverted, often dislikes extroverts.
Positive: Extroverted, happy, annoyingly so.

So in total we have 3 x 3 x4 x2 alignments, totaling 72 separate alignments. Have fun!

[Zaq]

I will mention that in a lot of mythology (not necessarily D&D mythology, but real-world mythology) and classic literature (think Homer), fire represents law and civilization. In the modern era, we tend to think of fire as chaotic and/or destructive, but that wasn't always the case. Having control of fire can represent a shift from being a "savage" to being "civilized." I feel like it would be fun to have your elemental alignments take that into consideration.

[Jeff the Green]

Personally, I don't make many actions have elemental alignment implications. While torture actually furthers the aim of Evil and caring for the destitute furthers the aim of Good, being angry or energetic or adaptable or civilized doesn't further any element. There are a few actions that people regularly take that do (such as lighting/quenching fires), but these tend to be on the same order of magnitude as petting a sad puppy or laughing at a kid who slipped and fell in the mud. You have to do things like regularly setting houses on fire or occasionally starting forest fires, flooding an area, causing massive windstorms, or creating a new mine to significantly affect your elemental alignment. Positive/negative is a bit easier since turning/rebuking undead, cure spells, and animating undead all have effects.

[Thy Dungeonman]

Thanks for suggesting personality ideas & more perspectives y'all.

Question tho: The elemental planes I hadn't read about in the PS Inner Planes boxed set - where did those come from? Fumes? What the dilly?

[Jeff the Green]

From what I understand it, the elemental planes overlap with each other to produce the paraelemental planes (AF = smoke, AW = ice, FE = magma, WE = ooze) and the positive and negative planes to produce the quasielemental planes (+A = lightning, -A = vacuum, +F = radiance, -F = ash, +W = steam, -W = salt, +E = mineral, -E = dust). There's fanon (http://mimir.net/mapinfinity/quasi.html) planes on the border of the quasielemental planes and the positive and negative planes, but they were never published.

[OldTrees1]

Thanks for suggesting personality ideas & more perspectives y'all.

Question tho: The elemental planes I hadn't read about in the PS Inner Planes boxed set - where did those come from? Fumes? What the dilly?

The additional 8 Quasi Elemental Planes (intersections of the 4 Para Elemental Planes and the 2 Energy Planes) were created here (http://mimir.net/mapinfinity/quasi.html)(same link as before). Blame Planescape's "Rule of Three"

[Fax Celestis]

Everway did something like this, actually. You should look into it.

[Thy Dungeonman]

Link to the Everway stuff perhaps? Yeah, it makes sense for those planes to be there. I don't know if I'd have come up with the same names they did, but kudos for giving it a go.

[Fax Celestis]

http://www.gaslightpress.com/everway/
Warning: very not D&D.

[Psyren]

I'd say evil in the elements works a lot like evil in M:TG - namely, evil comes from one color or group of colors going to an extreme, and trying to achieve dominance over the others, while good comes from trying to maintain balance or harmony.

Actually I'll just quote Mark Rosewater here:


Every color on the color wheel is capable of committing evil acts in the name of that color’s philosophy. White will create fascism. Red will commit manslaughter. Green will violently destroy things and blue will wantonly steal them. Evil is not about beliefs but actions. And all five colors are capable of doing evil things.

The same applies to elements. Let any of them run amok and you will find evil. Keep them more or less in sync and life, particularly innocent life, can thrive.

[Thy Dungeonman]

I'll look into that stuff too, if I get the time. Thanks.