Help me choose! Sorcerer or Wizard?

[RoboEmperor]

I just can't decide. Both have so many advantages and I want them all >.<. I've spent 2 weeks of going back and forth between wizard and sorcerer, so now I'm going to reach out and let someone else decide.

A bit about myself, I don't like playing a god-mode-er or someone who can do everything. I like being restricted to one thing, and I like non-combat characters who rely mostly on summons and their creations to do the fighting for them. I like the idea of inept characters using magic and technology to supplement their weaknesses and become strong rather than people who are born super talented and are merely honing their skills. This would make you think I like wizards over sorcerers, but sorcerers are significantly more inept than wizards mechanically in the game which is why I'm drawn to sorcerers.

These are the things I want to do. Please note that I WON'T do all of these things. Every DM is different and what I'm attempting does require some leniency, but I will not being playing with a DM who won't let me do any of these things.
1. Animate Dead. I love this spell as it allows me to create long-lasting creatures out of combat, but I hate the fact that I am extremely dependent on corpses the DM throws at me, and the fact that skeletons are very fragile meaning no matter how good of a corpse you find, it will die in the next few encounters. This makes scrying and killing specific monsters impractical as I'll be forced to do this every other day.

To counter the downsides of this skill, I've been looking up a few abuses that allow me to get any corpse I want.
a. Polymorph Any Object corpses into other corpses.
b. Stone to flesh a statue or sculpture of a creature or its skeleton.

Wizards do this better than sorcerers because they get the spells earlier than sorcerers, especially true because sorcerers need to get other spells before getting these spells. Planar binding spells are same levels as stone to flesh and PaO, so sorcerers will be performing these animate dead combos at least 2 levels later than wizards.

2. Planar Binding
A combat inept character using planar binding to dangerously manipulate demons and devils into fighting for her is an idea I really like, as a mistake will result in her damnation, where as success will give me tremendous satisfaction of beating demons and devils in their own game. I do not however want to spend 1week+ persuading 1 creature.

Sorcerer with charm monster can magically compel a demon/devil into serving her 80-95% of the time with one casting, where as a wizard's percentage drops to 30-60%. This means sorcerers can bind demons/devils right before a dungeon and mid dungeon very reliably, where as a wizard will probably have to use down time. Moment of Prescience however, allows wizards to win the check immediately robbing the sorcerer's advantage, but it is level 8 spell (lots of campaigns don't reach this level) but is not spontaneous, so if the called creature dies mid-dungeon, sorcerers can call a new one where as wizards can't.

3. Constructs.
a. Normal. Super expensive and takes at least 3 months. Not expendable
b. Thought bottle. Although this gets rid of the XP cost, it still takes 3 months to craft a construct. It's still too expensive to make the construct expendable.
c. Polymorph Any Object. This makes you crappy stone golems who are not immune to magic, dispel will kill it, and have subpar stats. On the plus side it's free, takes very little time to "construct", and they're expendable. If I use this I will still be crafting one 15hd stone golem normally in order to make sure the PaO golems are loyal to me, otherwise they could be masterless golems and try to kill me outright.
d. Runic Guardian with simulacrum. This is very high-op. Although Runic Guardians don't require any spells to create, simulacrum scrolls are limited to whatever material was used to create the scrolls. That means only wizards can choose the simulacrum they want unless sorcerers burn a spell known for this one-time usage and retrain later.

Wizards do this one better than sorcerers because they get the spells earlier, and can have all the spells. You only need to cast the spells personally at the final day, so sorcerers can just buy the scrolls, but if stranded on an island, wizards can research the spells herself though arguably, sorcerers can just planar bind a mercane and buy stuff from them.

4. Create Greater Undead
These undead are sentient so command undead is not a guaranteed success. Sorcerers with their high charisma, by level 20, have a 93% chance of winning the charisma check while a wizard falls to 61-73%. If any of the animate dead abuses are allowed then I won't need this spell so the sorcerer's advantage is robbed. Also, there's an armor enchantment called "undead controlling" which allows you to control 26hd of undead for 24 hours every day. If you command the undead to fail their saves and use "command undead" on them, they won't go hostile when the 24 hours are up and you can safely re-establish control.

5. Summons
Standard summoner stuff. A wizard can do this, sorcerer cannot, especially since I need other spells than summon monster a.s.a.p. But I like the idea of summoning fiendish colossal insects to supplement my skeletal dragons.

So to summarize
Sorcerer
+Restricted/Specialized. The sorcerer is awesome at the above stuff, but tell my sorcerer to anything else and she's useless. I like this.
+Super high success chance of charm monster/command undead. This actually makes heightened charm monster a staple save-or-die that targets will.
+Can planar bind creatures on the go
+Can create more soldiers/undead on the go since sorcerers are spontaneous. They don't need to prepare, predict, and get screwed when hit by something not predicted.
+Create Greater Undead is viable and reliable. Devourers ignoring your commands is only 7% chance of happening. No need to use items.
+Can use UMD with only 1 point investment in skill. At level 20 I will have +15 charisma bonus to skills, and +4 from greater heroism.
-No summon monster
-Very restricted feats.
-Need to be 1-2 levels higher than wizards to do what I want.
-Need to buy scrolls to craft constructs
-Need 14 int to get 5 skills. Concentration, spellcraft, knowledge arcane and planes, and craft sculpture.
-Need to be level 13 to be happy. With planar binding and stone to flesh, I'm happy. Arguably though I could be happy by level 10 because spamming lesser planar binding and charm monster is nice. Wizards can't use charm monster.

Wizard
+Research Spells. Not reliant on an external magic market to craft constructs.
+Summon Monster is viable
+Can spend all down-time spells creating animate dead sculptures or PaO stone golems or planar bind stuff. Then can switch to summon monster spells for combat.
+Lot more spells known at earlier levels. At level 11 can learn planar binding and stone to flesh. At level 15 greater planar binding, polymorph any object, and moment of prescience. Sorcerers have to wait until level 18 (extra spell) or 19 to have all of them.
+At level 11 I am happy because I got my "core" spells to be an army commander. Sorcerers have to wait until level 13.
+UMD for bead of karma to be able to cast spells 4 levels higher. Important for create greater undead, animate dead, etc. Sorcerers don't have enough skill points to invest in UMD.
-If someone dispels command undead on your animated dead army, you're screwed where as a sorcerer can re-establish control.
-Planar binding 1 creature requires several charm monsters in succession.
-Can't create minions on the go. NEEDS down-time.
-Can't do anything on-the-go. Need to spend a full day on down-time, no creating stuff if spells left over at end of day, or create stuff at start of day and adventure.

Basically sorcerers do everything better, and can do them with 0 down time and on the go. Wizards can do everything sooner, and use summon monster stuff. I'm leaning towards sorcerer because I don't need to beg the DM for down time, but I can't decide if I want everything sooner, or spontaneous casting.

[DrKerosene]

I'm no expert at all.

Are you aware of the "Summon Undead" spells? It might be a decent low-level alternative to needing to find corpses. They only go up to SummonV I think, and the lists are pretty limited. I think Uncanny Forethought might help a Wizard build.

Honestly, I assume you'll be PrCing asap regardless and already listed the main differences, so I guess Sorcerer is fine. I'm fond of prestige Bard and/or Paladin if you want to jump through some hoops.

[Aegis013]

I think Uncanny Forethought might help a Wizard build.

Seconding this based on what you're saying about not being able to decide. You want the potential for lots of spells with some of the versatility of spontaneous casting? Grab up the Uncanny Forethought feat from Exemplars of Evil on your Wizard (being Evil not required). It allows you set aside spell slots equal to your Int modifier from which you can spontaneously cast any spell you know (that fits within the level of slot set aside) as a full-round action at a -2 caster level from those slots. It comes with the Spell Mastery feat tax, but if you pick good spells for Spell Mastery, they aren't subject to the full-round or the -2 caster level if you spontaneously cast them.

Basically lets you have best of both worlds, especially if used in combination with the fact that Wizards can leave unprepared slots and fill them (as long as it's a quarter or fewer of the Wizard's total spell slots) in 15 minutes after the initial spell preparation.

[RoboEmperor]

Are you aware of the "Summon Undead" spells? It might be a decent low-level alternative to needing to find corpses. They only go up to SummonV I think, and the lists are pretty limited. I think Uncanny Forethought might help a Wizard build.

Honestly, I assume you'll be PrCing asap regardless and already listed the main differences, so I guess Sorcerer is fine. I'm fond of prestige Bard and/or Paladin if you want to jump through some hoops.

It's not that I like undead, it's that I like creating soldiers. Summon Undead has the same problems as summon monster which makes it not viable for the sorcerer.

I will not be PrCing as I am feat and skill intensive already with both builds. Wizard might be allowed to get 5 levels of PrC, but not sorcerer.

I haven't considered uncanny forethought. Seeing how I'll have a +12 to my int bonus at level 20, that does sound very attractive however the spell mastery requirement is kind of a deal breaker as the spells I use mid level are trashed for high level spells, which means I have to wait until high level to use uncanny forethought, which means I'm still stuck with non-spontaneous-ness for most of the game.


Basically lets you have best of both worlds, especially if used in combination with the fact that Wizards can leave unprepared slots and fill them (as long as it's a quarter or fewer of the Wizard's total spell slots) in 15 minutes after the initial spell preparation.

Forgot about this. Thanks for reminding me of this too. Gonna have to think about this...

[The Grue]

So to summarize
Sorcerer
...
-No summon monster

Wait, what?


5. Summons
Standard summoner stuff. A wizard can do this, sorcerer cannot

Why...exactly, can a sorcerer not cast the Summon Monster line of spells?

EDIT: Anyway, why choose one when you can have the best of both worlds (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/arcanist)?

[RoboEmperor]

Wait, what?



Why...exactly, can a sorcerer not cast the Summon Monster line of spells?

EDIT: Anyway, why choose one when you can have the best of both worlds (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/arcanist)?

I'm sorry if I confused you. When I meant by sorcerers being unable to use summon monster, I meant that in my build I can't afford to spend the 1st spell of every new spell level on summon monster.

Also, this is d&d not pathfinder :P though i guess most of the tricks I want to use carry over to pathfinder.

[frogglesmash]

If you go for the undead route than I'd suggest dread necromancer. It gets animate dead a the same level as the sorcerer it get's a higher HD cap as well as some buffs for the undead it makes. You'd also get the aforementioned summon undead line of spells and the planar binding spells (provided your DM adds magic circle vs X and dimensional anchor to your spell lists as it seems the writers forgot to). You're also a CHA based class with access to rebuke undead so you don't have to worry about control undead not working on anything you make with create undead. Also it's an awesome class and it's my favorite.

[RoboEmperor]

Yeah, I considered dread necromancer but he doesn't have fabricate, stonewall, stone to flesh, or polymorph any object. That means he's stuck with the corpses enemies throw at him.

Sure he can get arcane disciple and get polymorph any object but... I don't want my PC worshiping any deities :(

Oh and he doesn't have charm monster. That means creatures you planar bind must be paid due to some DMs claiming free service is an "unreasonable demand."

If only dread necro had those spells in his spell list Q_Q.

[DMVerdandi]

I kind of understand that need to have some constraints, and also the desire to have the ability to cast what you need to, when you need too.

To be honest? You could look at cleric. Other than conjuration spells, everything you want is done better by a cleric. Undead control, summoning, binding (With a Thaumaturge). Still wanna blast? Take the magic domain as one of your domains. Now you can use wizard spell trigger items at half your level.

Don't want to be bulky? Cloistered cleric. (even though you don't actually NEED to.)


One thing that you are saying, but you may not know the implications for is slowing down combat. The more summons you have, and minions, the slower combat will be. That is why summon monster/undead is a good idea. Precision. You can have exactly what you need, when you need it, instead of always having cohorts in tow.



Outside of that, I would probably still choose Wizard. In my own opinion, sorcerer isn't any good. I mean, it can be better if you specialize in shadow spells, but outside of that, it's a no. Like a shadow craft mage is a fantastic thing, but without PRC's like that and mage of the arcane order, you are going to start to feel that squeeze of only being able to cast a certain amount of spells.


Sorcerer requires a much higher level of skill and system mastery to play successfully. That is one of the traps. many think sorcerer is easier because of the lack of bookwork, but the real thing is this, because it is locked in, you have to sacrifice learning something that would be fun, for learning something that would be efficient. It is much more difficult to play despite the illusion of being more simple.

Even if a wizard looses his spell book, there is nothing saying he cannot buy a new one in a day. And if you are loosing your spell book, you have a DM that is just evil anyway.


If you CAN, Spell point wizard is the truth.
Trust me on this. Try to make it happen in your group. Hell, take a +1 LA penalty if you have to(Just as a last resort). It is superior in all ways to everything.
No more Vancian crap. Glorious spell points. And every spell that is memorized is spontaneously cast. It is like an arcanist meets a psion.

The absolute highest that wotc has achieved.

[eggynack]

Sorcerer requires a much higher level of skill and system mastery to play successfully. That is one of the traps. many think sorcerer is easier because of the lack of bookwork, but the real thing is this, because it is locked in, you have to sacrifice learning something that would be fun, for learning something that would be efficient. It is much more difficult to play despite the illusion of being more simple.
Sorcerers don't require that much skill to play successfully, or they do, but likely less than for a wizard. What they take skill for is successful building. If you were to hand a new player either a wizard with a spellbook full of spells, or a sorcerer with a spells known list, my strong suspicion is that the sorcerer would have an easier time of it.


If you CAN, Spell point wizard is the truth.
Trust me on this. Try to make it happen in your group. Hell, take a +1 LA penalty if you have to(Just as a last resort). It is superior in all ways to everything.
No more Vancian crap. Glorious spell points. And every spell that is memorized is spontaneously cast. It is like an arcanist meets a psion.

The absolute highest that wotc has achieved.
Maybe some unofficial spell point wizard, but the actual one that exists is rather wonky. Doesn't seem right to endorse something that makes sorcerers nigh on strictly worse than wizards, as opposed to the current system which just makes them regular worse.

[RoboEmperor]

Cleric is a definite no. Barked up that tree too many times. I love everything about clerics except that they need to worship a deity, and for a role player, that means being his servant forever, doing what that deity wants. Deityless clerics are nice, but forgotten realms setting killed that. In the end, I like characters who are independent and unrestricted, as in they can do whatever they want and don't lose their power just because you disagree with your god.

I don't plan on using 999 minions per encounter. Normal adventuring I'll have 1 or 2 with me, either planar bound creatures or skeletal dragons I release from my bag of holding. At least one planar bound creature because they can receive buffs and have decent AC, unlike skeletons. That's why I like being able to planar bind more creatures on the go. If I need a power increase because my outsider died or the next fight is gonna be tough, I can bind more.

If I do have 999 minions out, it's to lay siege to something. So the next encounters I'll have 1-4 of my generic minions (PaO golem, specters, or skeletal dragon) already fighting the enemy until the seige is over.

I am an experienced d&d player, and have played both sorcerers and wizards before. Without a doubt wizards are superior by far, but I like to be weak-ish. I want to be the best at what I want to do, but that's it. I'm not even getting timestop or celerity on my sorcerer, or craft contingency on my wizard who is a human generalist. That should explain enough :)

I haven't read spell point wizard yet as it is a variant rule and my DM doesn't like them, but what you said is very intriguing. I will give it a read.

[Spore]

Have you seen the Summoner class of Pathfinder? Here: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/baseClasses/summoner.html

[RoboEmperor]

Have you seen the Summoner class of Pathfinder? Here: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/baseClasses/summoner.html

Again, this is d&d not pathfinder, and yes I have seen them. Huge bad rep though as OP.
XD

I did not however study them. At least not yet since I don't want to play pathfinder for the foreseeable future, and even if I do, I like sticking with one class across platforms :)

Everything I stated in the 1st post is viable in PF except the stone to flesh thing. Oh and the runic guardian thing too since they don't exist.

Fluff wise wizards are appealing as they are the self-made man where as sorcerers are naturally talented. Being unable to do stuff on the go is annoying mechanically, but I might not mind when I think about it now as it makes my character more combat inept.

Can't decide >.<

[Spore]

Again, this is d&d not pathfinder, and yes I have seen them. Huge bad rep though as OP.
XD


They're not OP if you build within limits; like anything.

And honestly every sorcerer/wizard is more OP from level 10 onwards.

[gorfnab]

You may want to check out the Easy Bake Wizard Handbook in my signature. Basically it's a wizard that is not tied down to a spellbook, but still has an absurd number of spells known. It can also cast a decent amount of spells spontaneously.

[DMVerdandi]

Sorcerers don't require that much skill to play successfully, or they do, but likely less than for a wizard. What they take skill for is successful building. If you were to hand a new player either a wizard with a spellbook full of spells, or a sorcerer with a spells known list, my strong suspicion is that the sorcerer would have an easier time of it.
But that is because of the reduced bookwork. At the same time, the wizard is MUCH more forgiving when it comes to making mistakes, which a lot of new players do. If you have a sorcerer and only take evocation spells, while they might not know it, but they are up poo-poo creak.

If a wizard ends up scribing a bunch of crap spells. Then he can simply research new spells on downtime and add them to his spell book. The scribing process and the spell slot process are the only things that are only semi-complicated. Other than that it's fine.





Maybe some unofficial spell point wizard, but the actual one that exists is rather wonky. Doesn't seem right to endorse something that makes sorcerers nigh on strictly worse than wizards, as opposed to the current system which just makes them regular worse.
Nah, bro. The one in the SRD. It's hardly wonky. Especially if you have experience in psionics. It's really quite simple.

The point cost has a table in the srd.
All spells that do not depend on damage are cast as normal.
Spells that increase damage based on caster level cost normal rate, and damage is base damage of the spell. For every increase in caster level, it costs 1 point
So if a spell is 1d6 + 1 for every caster level, instead of automatically being heightened as with the spell slot

It Might be 3+ 1/caster level points.

Thing is, anyone worth their salt knows that dealing damage with spells is tin-foil hat crazy without a bunch of optimization. So the majority of spells are simply going to be cast off the table without any extra point burn.

It's a FAR more flexible and forgiving system.








Cleric is a definite no. Barked up that tree too many times. I love everything about clerics except that they need to worship a deity, and for a role player, that means being his servant forever, doing what that deity wants. Deityless clerics are nice, but forgotten realms setting killed that. In the end, I like characters who are independent and unrestricted, as in they can do whatever they want and don't lose their power just because you disagree with your god.

I don't plan on using 999 minions per encounter. Normal adventuring I'll have 1 or 2 with me, either planar bound creatures or skeletal dragons I release from my bag of holding. At least one planar bound creature because they can receive buffs and have decent AC, unlike skeletons. That's why I like being able to planar bind more creatures on the go. If I need a power increase because my outsider died or the next fight is gonna be tough, I can bind more.

If I do have 999 minions out, it's to lay siege to something. So the next encounters I'll have 1-4 of my generic minions (PaO golem, specters, or skeletal dragon) already fighting the enemy until the seige is over.

I am an experienced d&d player, and have played both sorcerers and wizards before. Without a doubt wizards are superior by far, but I like to be weak-ish. I want to be the best at what I want to do, but that's it. I'm not even getting timestop or celerity on my sorcerer, or craft contingency on my wizard who is a human generalist. That should explain enough :)

I haven't read spell point wizard yet as it is a variant rule and my DM doesn't like them, but what you said is very intriguing. I will give it a read.

An Alternative is Erudite.
How do you feel about psionics? You could play as an Erudite/Thrallherd, and simply have cohorts. You said that soldiers were more important that if they are undead or not. You could do that, and simply have yourself a harem.

You will be limited by your Powers per day, and while you can learn all powers, at max you will only be able to use 11 at a time.

[RoboEmperor]

I haven't tried psionics yet but I'll read it. Won't use psionics in my next game though, been planning this build too much to not use it even once :P

[The Grue]

Also, this is d&d not pathfinder :P

Might want to note that somewhere in your OP then, since you give literally no indication which one you're creating this character for.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Wizard with uncanny forethought.

You're totally missing the point on uncanny forethought by focusing on the first clause. It's the second that is pure unadulterated win.

Cast -any- spell you know as a full round action for the cost of a pitiful -2 cl. I don't know what that designer was smoking but that is just ridiculously powerful. Note that this clause is completely separate from the first. It's not limited to int mod slots per day.

Uncanny forethought makes you a slow casting sorcerer with unlimited spells known.

[RoboEmperor]

Ah! Exemplars of evil! Is the feat uncanny forethought also in another sourcebook? All the DMs I've played with don't like those weird sourcebooks because they introduce all sorts of shenanigans, like this one XD.

Re-reading uncanny forethought, it is amazing. You can say that full round casting time can shorten all spell's casting times to that full round, so no more casting contingency for 10minutes.

If uncanny forethought is allowed then definately wizard. If not then... sorcerer or wizard? XD

edit: Yeah, uncanny forethought solves all of my wizard problems. Wow that feat is amazing. Highly doubt it will be allowed in the games I want to play though XD.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Having reread your OP, I think you'd do better as a sorcerer.

A couple points you seem to have overlooked or otherwise misunderstood:

A wizard -can- act on the fly as long as he doesn't need whatever spell "right now." Even without uncanny forethought, a wizard can leave slots open to prepare later in the day. It only takes 15 minutes to fill up to a quarter of your total allotment of spells and you can, if you so choose, fill only a single slot with the spell you need at the moment in that 15 minute, mid-day preparation period. By mid-level you're almost certain to have more slots than you need for your staple combat spells and can leave a fair number open for prepare-as-needed spells.

Summon monster is perfectly viable on a sorcerer. While you do need to burn a spell known on each one, you also get to sub out spells you don't need anymore a few levels later. Good planning can make sure that you only have to swap out your outdated SM spells and even then you still have some leeway for a few other swaps since you can swap out on every level and only pick a SM every other.


Really though, you seem to have focused yourself around near constant use of a set of preselected spells and you actively want to avoid the wizard's major draw: the ability to learn the silver-bullet spells for any situation that may arise. Between that and the ease of use during play difference, it really looks to me like sorcerer should be a no-brainer.

[eggynack]

Really though, you seem to have focused yourself around near constant use of a set of preselected spells and you actively want to avoid the wizard's major draw: the ability to learn the silver-bullet spells for any situation that may arise. Between that and the ease of use during play difference, it really looks to me like sorcerer should be a no-brainer.
While there is some focus on preselected spells, one thing that could shift selection towards wizard is the emphasis on long term spell effects, particularly minionmancy of various kinds. Planar binding is one of my go to spells when discussing things sorcerers are significantly worse than wizards at, because of how many spells known it eats, and many of his desired effects are similarly costly in the spells known sense while not really eating into daily wizard resources.

[Kelb_Panthera]

While there is some focus on preselected spells, one thing that could shift selection towards wizard is the emphasis on long term spell effects, particularly minionmancy of various kinds. Planar binding is one of my go to spells when discussing things sorcerers are significantly worse than wizards at, because of how many spells known it eats, and many of his desired effects are similarly costly in the spells known sense while not really eating into daily wizard resources.

Of particular note there is that a number of called and summoned creatures can cover some of your other desires. An aartaglith demon can be summoned with SM7, IIRC, and it has animate dead at will. Beyond that point you no longer need to know animate dead and it doesn't cost you the requisite onyx anymore either. That's just one example. The scope is -dramatically- broadened when you start calling instead of summoning. A number of creatures available to call have outright spellcasting ability of their own that you can draw on. A minion-master really ought to know what his minions can do.

TL;DR: planar binding makes you better at -everything- to such a degree that your class becomes secondary if you focus on it. There's a reason that conjuration is the school you're told to never ban.

[With a box]

How about ur-priest?
Cleric spells, worship nobody.

Well, godless cleric is a thing...

[Johnmakuta]

A sorcerer is a fun thing but the bonus feats for wizards are irreplacible. By being a wizard you become the cataloger and crafter for the party which can be fun. The sorcerer class is fun for someone who wants to walk right up to an orc and shoot a magic missile strait in his stupid face! As long as you stock up with attack based spells or use specific spells very carefully. I found that even the weakest spells if used in the correct way can make a simple attack with a sword into an attack that completely obliterates an enemy.

In short Sorcerer.

[The Insaniac]

You might try the Sha'ir from Dragon Compendium. It's a prepared caster who bargains with genies to get spells and can prepare them much faster than a wizard can.

If you're looking at summon monster spells, allow me to point you to the malconvoker (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2791). If you're a specialist conjurer, you can replace scribe scroll with augment summoning and trade your familiar for the ability to cast summon spells as a standard action.

[RoboEmperor]

Of particular note there is that a number of called and summoned creatures can cover some of your other desires. An aartaglith demon can be summoned with SM7, IIRC, and it has animate dead at will. Beyond that point you no longer need to know animate dead and it doesn't cost you the requisite onyx anymore either. That's just one example. The scope is -dramatically- broadened when you start calling instead of summoning. A number of creatures available to call have outright spellcasting ability of their own that you can draw on. A minion-master really ought to know what his minions can do.

TL;DR: planar binding makes you better at -everything- to such a degree that your class becomes secondary if you focus on it. There's a reason that conjuration is the school you're told to never ban.

That is half my plan as I am going to rely on ghaeles to provide me spells for crafting, harm spell to heal my skeletal dragon, etc. and worst case scenario I use them in combat and play like a cleric.

I can't seem to find this "aartaglith" demon. Where is it from?

Animate dead also needs to be a sufficiently high caster level to raise skeletal dragons unless draconomicon is excluded. Then it just needs to be at least CL10.

I have researched a fair bit of outsiders, though most of them are only in the SRD. Nightmares seem to be the cream of the crop for lesser planar binding, glabrezu/ghaele for planar binding, and pitfiend/planetar for greater planar binding.

I've decided, sorcerer mainly for high percentage charm monster success chance (the charisma roll not the DC), more spells per day, and all the reasons you stated why sorcerer pick is a no brainer.

Why I keep thinking of wizards is mainly that they get spells sooner, can research spells with only gold, and can use summon monster without hindering what I want to do. But spontaneous + higher success chance > all those stuff, at least that's how I'm judging it right now.

I've been tempted to go malconvoker because of the 2hd planar binding increase (at level 13/14 I can bind planetars), but malconvoker is going to slow down my sorcerer too much. 1 entire spell level behind + getting summon monster spells on my sorcerer is bleh. Wizard on the other hand, I find no reason not to go malconvoker wizard other than the alignment restrictions. Almost everyone on this forum labels my characters as chaotic evil >.<

Reason why I'm not going specialist wizard is because enchantment spells are necessary for crafting constructs. Charm monster is also in enchantment school. I guess I don't need illusion and evocation... hmm... more things to think about. Can't remember the last time I used illusion spells other than simulacrum.

[atemu1234]

Sig bait:

Remember, kids! A sufficiently optimized wizard is indistinguishable from a god!

Otherwise:

Wizard. Just wizard. You could be a generalist elven wizard and have quite a few very good spells, and a better selection than a sorcerer. So you give up 1-2 spells per day at each level? You get to choose which spells you prepare each day, rather than deciding whether to cast fireball or lightning bolt. Plus, 3.5 kind of killed metamagic sorcerers. Metamagic wizards are, however, awesome.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The aartaglith demon is from ghostwalk, IIRC.

This might prove helpful: the summoner's desk reference (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5).

There's a spoiler at the end of each list that lists all the SLA's available from creatures of that level of summon spell. Very useful.

[RoboEmperor]

The aartaglith demon is from ghostwalk, IIRC.

This might prove helpful: the summoner's desk reference (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5).

There's a spoiler at the end of each list that lists all the SLA's available from creatures of that level of summon spell. Very useful.

You spelled it wrong. No wonder I couldn't find it :P

Bah, 1/day at CL 5th. Pathetic. Ghaeles could do much better than that, except I can't find a good enough reason a Ghaele would animate a dead corpse even with charm monster, and you still need to provide the onyx.

[Chronos]

It sounds like a lot of the spells you want are things that would be cast in downtime, and wizards are better at that than sorcerers. Take Animate Dead, for instance: You cast the spell a few times to get your HD limit worth of undead, and then you're done with the spell. You don't need it at all any more until some of your skeletons get destroyed. On a sorcerer, that spell that you're no longer using is still using up one of your precious spells known, but on a wizard, you just prepare something else the next day once you don't need it any more.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You spelled it wrong. No wonder I couldn't find it :P

Did I? My bad.


Bah, 1/day at CL 5th. Pathetic. Ghaeles could do much better than that, except I can't find a good enough reason a Ghaele would animate a dead corpse even with charm monster, and you still need to provide the onyx.

2 things:

1) it doesn't matter that the artaaglith only gets it once per day because you can summon more than one artaaglith. With a SM spell 1 level higher you can get 2 for one casting and with a SM 2 levels higher you can get several at once.

2) increasing CL by 5 points isn't terribly difficult, even temporarily.

[RoboEmperor]

It sounds like a lot of the spells you want are things that would be cast in downtime, and wizards are better at that than sorcerers. Take Animate Dead, for instance: You cast the spell a few times to get your HD limit worth of undead, and then you're done with the spell. You don't need it at all any more until some of your skeletons get destroyed. On a sorcerer, that spell that you're no longer using is still using up one of your precious spells known, but on a wizard, you just prepare something else the next day once you don't need it any more.

Yeah, that is one of the main draws of wizard for me. All those spells can be cast in down-time. Problem is, it HAS to be down-time, where as a sorcerer can do it mid-dungeon. So if you run out of skeletal dragons or called creatures, you gotta quit or beg your party to keep you alive. Sorcerer on the other hand can bind a new called creature in 10minutes thanks to it's amazing charisma check for charm monster. If someone dispels your command undead as a wizard, you're screwed. Of course, this specific problem can be solved by buying a wand but not the rest.


So wizard can do everything, and everything sooner, but just not on the go.
Sorcerers can't do everything, and does everything later, but can do everything BETTER, and on the go. So my sorcerer will be the ultimate specialist in planar binding and undead control, and planar binding is one of the most versatile spells as it allows you the use of the entire cleric spell-list, which is enough to compensate the sorcerer's lack of spells known. I can craft almost every item with a ghaele, and those I can't I can use planetar's miracle to provide those spells.

So basically it came down to:
Do I want to rely on down-time, do everything sooner, and use summon monster line of spells? OR
Do I want to be completely independent of down-time and do everything better?

As down-time is severely limited, at least in my DM's campaigns, I went with the latter. That and summon monster line of spells are worthless against high CR monsters like tarrasque, dragons, or epic monsters. Granted, so does skeletons but they don't take up level 8 and 9 slots.



1) it doesn't matter that the artaaglith only gets it once per day because you can summon more than one artaaglith. With a SM spell 1 level higher you can get 2 for one casting and with a SM 2 levels higher you can get several at once.

2) increasing CL by 5 points isn't terribly difficult, even temporarily.

Forgot about the additional summon thing.

2) only works if skeletal dragons aren't allowed. If they are then you need CL 20.5

Thanks for the info as I do have some room left in my sorcerer's 7th level spell selection. Maybe I will go SMVII as it's considered one of the best utility spells in the game.

[ericgrau]

Normally I'd say sorcerer hands down for a fixed spell list but most of the spells you want can be cast between combats, making spell swapping very handy. You should exploit this to its fullest and not prepare most of those spells you listed most days. Get an NPC to craft you a staff or staffs that has lesser planar binding and animate dead on it for emergencies. At lower level you can transport bodies with a 75 gp CL 3 scroll of tenser's floating disk or shrink item for longer trips. But size Large and bigger bodies are too big for these and then you pop a charge on the staff. Believe me, the staff will easily outlast the entire campaign even if used liberally. Make spells cost 2 charges or as many as the DM will allow.

As for overcoming animate dead drawbacks at low level, the simplest answer is to realize it's close to free power. The material component isn't that expensive at level 7. So if you animated some skellies yesterday and prepared a different 4th level spell today you're already above par. If the skellies die you still have your 4th level spell like any other caster. Yet another reason to take wizard. A sorcerer would just be stuck with animate dead as his only 4th level option at level 8, then finally another option at level 9. The sorc does still have 3rds to fall back on so it's not terrible, but he is hurt a little by having animate dead rather than say solid fog, while the wizard is only helped by animate dead no matter how unlucky he gets with his skellies. Even if the wizard isn't prepared for the very rare giant pile of bodies that can't be transported, overall he's ahead. A sorc could have a staff with another 4th level spell on it, but that is expensive at 8th level and only good for 2 levels before he has other better and better options. The wizard doesn't actually bother with his staff until later because while it's nice to have emergency corpse revival and lesser planar binding, it's not essential.

So take wizard, not even for all the cheesy tricks, but simply for the spell swapping.

As for limiting his scope, blow all your gold and feats on your shtick and I think that will do. Get the staff early even if it's not essential, but to get the theme moving. Earlier than that pack your tenser's floating disk scrolls. Unguent of timelessness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#unguentofTimelessness) is super cheap and handy too. Don't blow money on learning too many spells. Mainly your shtick spells and your standard general purpose combat spell list (w/o shtick spells). Blow feats into summoning or etc., maybe plan ahead for high level with feats. Etc.