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TimeWizard
2007-03-26, 11:46 AM
Archery has currently piqued my interest. Are archers in DnD just a feat tree or are they almost a subclass? There seem to be a larger then average number of feats for them. Also, any opinions on best/worst feats or optimal feat trees would be appriciated.

Morgan_Scott82
2007-03-26, 11:52 AM
No, they're not a subclass. They're an archetype. Which is to say, their are many ways to build up an archer in D&D and while all fill the same niche they aren't constructed in the same way. There's the fighter archer, the cleric archer, the ranger archer, the rogue archer, or some other kind of archer. Mechanically they will all be fairly different but thematically they would all be called archers.

Tell us a little more about how you envision this archer playing and we can offer you some more insight into class/feat combinations.

Orzel
2007-03-26, 11:58 AM
Ranged combat in DNd is "shoot the guy with the glowing hands or wings." For the most part an archer is a damage dealer and spell stopper. There aren't many utility ranged feats.

Manyshot is always nice. You also want a few damage incresing feats and spells.

TimeWizard
2007-03-26, 12:03 PM
Allow me to specify, I was planning on a Fighter (for the feats). If ranged rogues work well, then thats a viable option too. I don't have any experience with this archetype, so pros/cons would really help.

Ramza00
2007-03-26, 12:07 PM
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11824882
Cleric Archer, Fighter Archer, and Scout 3/Ranger 17 Archer

There is also the 3.0 order of the bow initate (pretend the cwarrior one doesn't exist), peerless archer (3.0 FR), and 2 lvls of deepwood sniper. You can also get amazing ranges with Craigtop archer but it doesn't really help your damage and with an archer that is your priority constant damage at range.

Black Hand
2007-03-26, 12:14 PM
Allow me to specify, I was planning on a Fighter (for the feats). If ranged rogues work well, then thats a viable option too. I don't have any experience with this archetype, so pros/cons would really help.

I'd mix your fighter and rogue levels together, even if you only end your rogue classes at level 3, you'll still get +2d6 sneak attack to add to your rolls in some situations, and evasion...not to mention a bunch of extra skill points you can use (use magic device is always good...nobody expects the fighter with the wand):smallwink:

Shrew
2007-03-26, 12:15 PM
Ok, with manyshot can you use this with multiple attacks, or even rapid shot to shot off multiple arrows per shot? This would mean at higher levels you could shoot off 16 arrows a round. Is this right?

Orzel
2007-03-26, 12:20 PM
Fighter achers can do nonarchery well and can grab archery feats easiest and fastest. Too bad there few archery feats and they rely on the weapon for most of his damage. They also can't hide and shoot

Rogue archers deal high damage via sneak attack, favor high DEX, and can hide and shoot. This make hard DC for spellcasters. But they get no free feats, lower BAB, and hard to hit many SA shots with bows without items and scrolls.

Ranger archers get free feats and deal good damage with favored enemies. They also can melee decently and favor high DEX.

Cleric archers are like fighter achers with a lot less feats. They need Zen Archery feat, Divine Power spell, and damage buff spells to work.

Ramza00
2007-03-26, 12:23 PM
Ok, with manyshot can you use this with multiple attacks, or even rapid shot to shot off multiple arrows per shot? This would mean at higher levels you could shoot off 16 arrows a round. Is this right?
No Multishot is a standard action. Full Attack is a full round action you can't combine them (you can in NWN2 but that isn't D&D)

Greater Manyshot + The splitting weapon enchantment will allow you to fire 8 arrows and all them get precision damage.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-26, 01:07 PM
I doubt very many DMs allow splitting though.

TimeWizard
2007-03-26, 07:55 PM
Would someone enlighten me as to what splitting is?

TheOOB
2007-03-26, 08:04 PM
I belive Fax made a martial adept disipline for archers that was pretty good, if I come across it I'll post the link here.

EDIT: here we go: The Falling Star Discipline (http://corporation.walagata.com/fax/wiki/index.php/Falling_Star_Discipline)

Ramza00
2007-03-26, 08:13 PM
Would someone enlighten me as to what splitting is?
+3 Weapon Enchantment in Champions of Ruin. As soon as the arrow leaves the bow it splits in two fully functional arrows, each arrow gets their own attack roll (thus it applies precision damage aka skirmish sneak attack to both arrows but things such as true strike, hunter's mercy, and guided shot only work on one arrow).

Effectively it doubles the number of attacks an archer can do for a +3 cost.

Iggero
2007-03-26, 08:26 PM
If you aren't particualrly shy about using weaposnother than a bow, then a whole world of nasty tricks opens up. With just a few really basic tricks and a little luck a halfling fighter can start with a +10 to attack with a given ranged weapon (thrown or sling). This is usually the trick I use to maximize ranged combatants. The favored class of rouge also helps.
Here is teh breakdown: +1 for size, +5 if you roll an 18 and put it in DEX, making a 20, +1 base attack, +1 for point blank shot, +1 for thrown weapons, +1 for weapon focus. I pefer the dagger, since it deals two damage types and can also be used in melee. Sorry to be so long winded, but I just thought this would be a viable alternate type of archer. Quillian Loxley lives!

henebry
2007-03-27, 08:41 AM
A Dagger!? Thrown by a halfling? For, what, 1d3 damage? The halfling dagger-thrower is only viable with sneak-attack damage.

selfcritical
2007-03-27, 09:24 AM
Other significant sources of archery are the psychic warrior archer(players like a cross between the cleric and fighter archer, with a lot more mobility), and the scout archer, which has decent feats, mobility and single-shot damage, but lower overall output before multishot.

Morty
2007-03-27, 09:30 AM
Can someone explain what's wrong with Order of The Bow Initiate? Maybe it's not the best PrC but I find it preety mediocere, ceratinly not bad.

Person_Man
2007-03-27, 09:32 AM
What books are available to you? It's hard to optimize a build without knowing what you can use.


Can someone explain what's wrong with Order of The Bow Initiate? Maybe it's not the best PrC but I find it preety mediocere, ceratinly not bad.

OotBI's main ability is Precision Shot, which is a STANDARD ACTION. So you fire ONE arrow per turn. Most other archer builds can easily fire 4-8 arrows per turn.

Morty
2007-03-27, 09:36 AM
Well, if you can deal more damage with those arrows than using OoTB's xd8 precision shot damage then I guess it's weak.

Ramza00
2007-03-27, 09:39 AM
The 3.0 OotBI is great it gives 5d6 ranged sneak attack, zen archery which still allows you to keep your dex bonus+wis bonus (it says it stacks if you already have the feat zen archery), superior weapon specialization, superior weapon focus, a free attack as an aoo once per round and close combat shot. Full bab class

3.0 version requires +5 BAB and these feats Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow or the composite version of either, Weapon Specialization (longbow or shortbow or the composite version of either).


The 3.5 is completely lack luster and you can be more effective being a sneak attack fighter.

Ikkitosen
2007-03-27, 09:41 AM
The best archery build I have seen is a scout/ranger using the new comp scoundrel feats. You get skirmish damage, and can apply this damage to your favoured enemies even if they are immune (so choose undead and constructs quickly!). Your levels stack for skirmish and favoured enemy too. Get greater manyshot "for the win" - until you meet a wind wall ;)

Morty
2007-03-27, 09:45 AM
Until you meet a wind wal

Meh, wind wall shouldn't even be mentioned here. It's totally broken spell. 3rd level spell that grants me total immunity to even 20 level archer? Yes, please.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-03-27, 09:58 AM
Archers are an interesting issue; fundamentally, they do fall into a few seperate categories, all are valid, interesting choices.

Firstly, if you're a 'casual archer', you're likely to simply have a very few archery feats- you're going to use your ranged attacks to soften up opponents before entering melee, or to disrupt enemy casters. Both of these are sound tactical decisions, but as a casual archer, your primary role is something else- casting or melee.

A martial archer, on the other hand, my personal favorite, will specialize in archery-related bonus feats. This is an especially potent variety of the standard fighter, as it allows him to attack targets that he normally simply wouldn't be able to reach, such as flying opponents or those on the opposite side of a chasm or other obstacle. With proper feat selection, a martial archer can make contact with multiple opponents each round at range, possibly dealing quite hefty damage, especially if he invests in a magical bow and arrows (and of course, he will- fighters travel on their equipment).

Then there's the precision archer/sniper; several different prestige classes, and a few base classes (notably scout) rely on the mechanic of dealing extra damage before an enemy can ever reach you; ideally fading away afterward to strike again. I believe greater manyshot allows you to deal precision damage as from sneak attack with every arrow you fire as part of manyshot, though I could be wrong; but at any rate, an archer's obvious advantage of distance, coupled with the damage potential of a rogue etc., makes for a deadly opponent, even against casters, who may well be disrupted by such a foe before they can make use of their ranged spells, generally are no great shakes at armor class, and have relatively low HP.

At any rate, the path of archery is one that doesn't get a whole lot of support in most new sourcebooks (with notable exceptions) but it's one I've always liked.

Also, seconded on checking out Fax's discipline.

V: Also, the below is, sadly, true.
Still love it, though.

Person_Man
2007-03-27, 10:00 AM
Meh, wind wall shouldn't even be mentioned here. It's totally broken spell. 3rd level spell that grants me total immunity to even 20 level archer? Yes, please.

Wind Wall is stationary, has to be cast in combat, and its a low level spell. You can't prepare it beforehand like so many other defensive buffs. And it's easily defeated by moving the enemy or casting Dispel Magic. It's certainly useful against some enemies, and I almost always have one memorized, but it's definitely not broken.

I'm partial to Cleric Archers myself. Zen Archery + Buff spells.

Though its worth noting that archery almost always lags behind melee attacks in terms of damage dealt per round, and that as always direct damage is less powerful then battlefield control, No Save, and Save or Die spells. So in my opinion, archery is a good option for a Skill Monkey that wants to be useful in combat, but not something that a build should aspire to.

Ikkitosen
2007-03-27, 10:07 AM
Wind Wall is stationary, has to be cast in combat, and its a low level spell. You can't prepare it beforehand like so many other defensive buffs. And it's easily defeated by moving the enemy or casting Dispel Magic. It's certainly useful against some enemies, and I almost always have one memorized, but it's definitely not broken.

I'm partial to Cleric Archers myself. Zen Archery + Buff spells.

Though its worth noting that archery almost always lags behind melee attacks in terms of damage dealt per round, and that as always direct damage is less powerful then battlefield control, No Save, and Save or Die spells. So in my opinion, archery is a good option for a Skill Monkey that wants to be useful in combat, but not something that a build should aspire to.

Wind Wall once a wizard has you restricted with one of many battlefield control spells is a winner. Someone mentioned houseruling it to a -8 to hit mod, which sounds good.

Cleric archers are clerics and therefore awesome, but taking Zen Archery means you probably don't meet the dex pre-reqs for most of the archery feats.

A well-built archer can compete with a melee guy for average damage, if only because they can be making full attack equivalents from the suprise round onwards (using greater manyshot) and don't have to deal with reaching their opponents.

Ramza00
2007-03-27, 10:14 AM
One houserule option which I haven't tried is to allow Archers to use the suppression ammunition (psionic dispel find it in the psionic part of the srd) to target effects on the battlefield such as wind wall. (Currently affects people and objects)

Would you think this would work?

Harkone
2007-03-27, 10:15 AM
Since we're on the subject of Archers, I'm re-posting two Archery Prestige classes I home-brewed. Hope they're helpful.


Night Hunter

(Eldreth Veluuthra Assassin [Forgotten Realms])

Requirements:
Race: Elf or Half-Elf
Alignment: LE, NE, CN, CE
Base Attack: +5
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Track, Weapon Focus: Longbow
Skills: Craft: Bowyer/Fletcher 4 ranks, Handle Animal 2 ranks, Hide 8 ranks, Knowledge: Nature 4 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks, Sense Motive 2 ranks, Spot 8 ranks, Survival 8 ranks
Special: Membership in the Eldreth Veluuthra

HD: d8 Base Attack Bonus: +1 Favored Saving Throws: Fortitude & Reflex

Class Skills (4+Int): Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Local, Knowledge: Nature, Knowledge: Religion, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble

-Gains no new weapon or armor proficiency

Class Abilities:

1st: Target of Vengeance+2

2nd: +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class OR +1d6 sneak attack OR bonus Archery Feat
Woodland Stride

3rd: Swift Tracking

4th: +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class OR +1d6 sneak attack OR +1d6 skirmish OR bonus Archery Feat
Trackless Step
Poison Affinity 1: Bonus Feat: Poison Use

5th: Target of Vengeance+4

6th: +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class OR +1d6 sneak attack OR new favored enemy OR bonus Archery Feat

7th: Poison Affinity 2: Bonus Feat: Improved Poison Use
Extended Precision

8th: +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class OR +1d6 sneak attack OR +1d6 skirmish OR bonus Archery Feat
Hide in Plain Sight

9th: Target of Vengeance+6
Steady Hand

10th: +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class OR +1d6 sneak attack OR bonus Archery Feat
Death Attack
Poison Affinity 3: Immunity to Poison, Bonus Feat: Supreme Poison Use


Target of Vengeance: The Night Hunter gains a the indicated bonus on Bluff, Intimidate, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks, as well as damage rolls (in melee or ranged up to 30’) against a specific Target of Vengeance (designated by spending at least 8 hours performing a special set of rites; must know the target’s name or have met the target at least once; can only have one target at a time; can only designate a new target once the previous target has been slain; bonus stacks with a ranger’s favored enemy bonus).

Archery Feat: The bonus feat must be chosen from the following list (others may be added subject to DM approval): Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Deflect Arrows, Far Shot, Greater Weapon Focus: Longbow, Greater Weapon Specialization: Longbow, Improved Critical: Longbow, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Rapid Shot (Complete Warrior), Manyshot, Mounted Archery, Penetrating Shot (PHB II), Power Shot (*), Quick Draw, Ranged Disarm (Complete Warrior), Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run, Snatch Arrows, Weapon Mastery: Longbow (PHB II), Weapon Specialization: Longbow, Weapon Supremacy: Longbow (PHB II). The Night Hunter must meet all prerequisites for the bonus feat. He may use his Night Hunter level as his Fighter or arcane spellcaster level or add his Night Hunter level to any Fighter or arcane spellcaster levels he possesses when a minimum Fighter or arcane spellcaster level is required. Night Hunter levels DO NOT stack with divine spellcasting levels for this purpose.

Woodland Stride: The Night Hunter now can move normally through any sort of undergrowth, as the druid ability (see PHB p. 36).

Swift Tracking: The Night Hunter now takes a 0/-10 penalty instead of -5/-20 when tracking at normal speed/twice normal speed.

Trackless Step: The Night Hunter now leaves no trail in natural surroundings (unless he chooses to do so) and thus cannot be tracked.

Poison Affinity 1: Bonus Feat: Poison Use: The Night Hunter now never risks accidentally poisoning himself when applying poison to a weapon.

Poison Affinity 2: Bonus Feat: Improved Poison Use: The Night Hunter can now apply poison to a weapon as a move action instead of a standard action.

Extended Precision: The Night Hunter may now apply sneak attack, favored enemy, and/or target of vengeance bonuses out to the first range increment of his longbow.

Hide in Plain Sight: The Night Hunter may now hide in plain sight, as the ranger ability (see PHB p. 48)

Steady Hand: In light or no armor, the Night Hunter now threatens nearby areas with his bow and may now fire his longbow in melee without provoking attacks of opportunity. This allows him to flank opponents and threaten an area up to 10’ (as a reach weapon) with his bow.

Death Attack: The Night Hunter can make a death attack as an Assassin after observing a target for at least 3 rounds (fortitude save DC: 10 + Night Hunter class level + INT modifier or die); the Night Hunter does not have the option of making a paralyzing attack instead. If the Night Hunter has levels of Assassin, he may add those class levels to his Night Hunter class levels for the purpose of calculating the save DC for his death attack ability (see the Assassin in DMG).

Poison Affinity 3: Immunity to Poison, Bonus Feat: Supreme Poison Use: The Night Hunter gains immunity to all natural poisons (derived from natural plants or fungi) and animal/vermin venoms. He may also now apply poison to a weapon as a free action.



Peerless Archer

(combines best features of other archery PrC's)

Requirements:
Base Attack: +7
Feats: Far Shot, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus: Longbow
Skills: Craft: Bowyer/Fletcher 10 ranks, Spot 5 ranks

HD: d8 Base Attack Bonus: +1 Favored Saving Throws: Reflex

Class Skills (2+Int): Balance, Climb, Craft, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival, Swim

-Gains no new weapon or armor proficiency

Class Abilities:

1st: Expert Bowyer/Fletcher
Range Bonus
Ranged Precision

2nd: Fletch: +1
Keen Arrows

3rd: Bonus Archery Feat

4th: Fletch: +2
Ranged Precision

5th: Improved Critical: +1
Extended Precision

6th: Fletch: +3
Bonus Archery Feat
Steady Hand

7th: Ranged Precision

8th: Fletch: +4

9th: Bonus Archery Feat
Hail of Arrows

10th: Ranged Precision
Fletch: +5
Improved Critical: +2


Expert Bowyer/Fletcher: The Peerless Archer adds +1 per Peerless Archer level to all Craft: Bowyer/Fletcher Checks.

Range Bonus: The Peerless Archer adds 10’ to the range of his bow for each Peerless Archer level.

Ranged Precision: At 1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th levels, the Peerless Archer may select one of the following abilities, thus by 10th level he will have all 4:

1.Critical Shot: As a standard action, the Peerless Archer may take a single precisely aimed shot with his bow against a foe within 30’. This shot automatically threatens a critical, regardless of the actual number rolled.

2.Object Shot: As a standard action, the Peerless Archer may take a single precisely aimed shot with his bow against an object within 30’. This attack does full damage to the target object.

3.Target Shot: As a standard action, the Peerless Archer may take a single precisely aimed shot with his bow against a foe within 30’. For this shot the Peerless Archer can make a ranged touch attack instead of a normal attack.

4.Trip Shot: As a standard action, the Peerless Archer may take a single precisely aimed shot with his bow against a foe within 30’. If this attack hits successfully, the Peerless Archer can make a trip attack with this shot. In addition to inflicting normal damage, the Peerless Archer makes a DEX check with a +4 bonus opposed by the target’s STR or DEX (target’s choice), applying other defensive modifiers as one would any other opposed trip check. If the Peerless Archer wins the opposed check, the target is tripped.

Fletch: The Peerless archer can create magical arrows, as if he possessed the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat and met all other requirements for the arrow he wishes to make. The enhancement bonus is +1 at 2nd level, +2 at 4th level, +3 at 6th level, +4 at 8th level, and +5 at 10th level. Up to 1,000 gp in magical arrows (base price) can be made each day. The arrows require 3.5 gp in materials for the MW arrow itself, and an expenditure of gp and XP as indicated below:

+1: 20 gp (1 arrow)/1,000 gp (50 arrows), 4 XP (1 arrow)/200 XP (50 arrows); base price/arrow: 40 gp
+2: 80 gp (1 arrow)/4000 gp (50 arrows), 16 XP (1 arrow)/800 XP (50 arrows); base price/arrow: 160 gp
+3: 180 gp (1 arrow)/9,000 gp (50 arrows), 36 XP (1 arrow)/1800 XP (50 arrows); base price/arrow: 360 gp
+4: 320 gp (1 arrow)/16,000 gp (50 arrows), 64 XP (1 arrow)/3,200 XP (50 arrows); base price/arrow: 640 gp
+5: 500 gp (1 arrow)/25,000 gp (50 arrows), 100 XP (1 arrow)/5,000 XP (50 arrows); base price/arrow: 1,000 gp

Keen Arrows: All arrows fired by the Peerless archer are now considered keen arrows.

Archery Feat: The Peerless Archer gets a bonus feat at 3rd, 6th, and 9th levels. The bonus feat must be chosen from the following list (others may be added subject to DM approval): Deflect Arrows, Greater Weapon Focus: Longbow, Greater Weapon Specialization: Longbow, Improved Critical: Longbow, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Rapid Shot (Complete Warrior), Mounted Archery, Penetrating Shot (PHB II), Power Shot (*), Quick Draw, Ranged Disarm (Complete Warrior), Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run, Snatch Arrows, Weapon Mastery: Longbow (PHB II), Weapon Specialization: Longbow, Weapon Supremacy: Longbow (PHB II). The Peerless Archer must meet all prerequisites for the bonus feat. He may use his Peerless Archer level as his Fighter level or add his Peerless Archer level to any Fighter levels he possesses when a minimum Fighter level is required.

Improved Critical: The critical damage for the Peerless Archer’s arrows becomes x4 at 5th level, x5 at 10th level.

Extended Precision: The Peerless Archer may now apply sneak attack, favored enemy, and similar bonuses normally limited to a 30’ range out to the first range increment of his longbow. This includes all Ranged Precision effects.

Steady Hand: In light or no armor, the Peerless Archer now threatens nearby areas with his bow and may now fire his longbow in melee without provoking attacks of opportunity. This allows him to flank opponents and threaten an area up to 10’ (as a reach weapon) with his bow.

Hail of Arrows: 1/day, the Peerless Archer may fire an arrow at his primary attack bonus at each target within range (maximum 1 target/Peerless Archer level, maximum 1 arrow/target).

Orzel
2007-03-27, 10:17 AM
Meh, wind wall shouldn't even be mentioned here. It's totally broken spell. 3rd level spell that grants me total immunity to even 20 level archer? Yes, please.

Wind wall isn't too bad.
All dedicated ranged combabatants should learn Quick draw and buy throwing weapons or learn how to use scrolls and wands.

Few wizards cast the accursed spell as ther first spell and none walk around with in on. So you'll get at least 1 round to shoot the wizard. With it up, you can chuck axes at people or dispel the wall. Few casters put the wall up again if you drop it. Plus if you are sniping from bushes, they'll probably die before they target you with a decent offensive spell.

Archery is for disrupting casters, hitting flyers. and letting skill users do something it battle. Nothing more.

Ramza00
2007-03-27, 10:26 AM
Just giving you a warning Harkone there is already a peerless archer prestige class in a book called Silver Marches (3.0 Forgotten Realms). Its a very good archer prestige class.

You can keep the name if you want, it might just confuse some people.

Ikkitosen
2007-03-27, 10:46 AM
Archery is for disrupting casters, hitting flyers. and letting skill users do something it battle. Nothing more.

Tosh. There are archer builds (without cheesy splitting enhancements) that do damage in the hundreds to just about any foe within 30' as a standard action. This isn't a support role, it's a primary damage role. Tanks take it, casters prevent it and a well built archer can deal it.

Orzel
2007-03-27, 10:53 AM
Tosh. There are archer builds (without cheesy splitting enhancements) that do damage in the hundreds to just about any foe within 30' as a standard action. This isn't a support role, it's a primary damage role. Tanks take it, casters prevent it and a well built archer can deal it.

Damage is a given. Melee combat, ranged combat, magical combat, and psionic combat can all deal high damage if built for it.

But for the most part a archer/thrower is readying disruptions or dealing high damage because that mostly that all ranged combat can do. Ranged combat is all about damage.

TimeWizard
2007-03-27, 11:09 AM
Excellent work everyone. Person Man: Assume I have access to anything 3.5
Shiny: Full archer or bust! And I am not too proud to ask, what are some of these insane damage builds?

ampcptlogic
2007-03-27, 11:24 AM
TimeWizard:

I have a build that sort of approaches it. It's constructed around a homebrew Fighter-variant Ranger class by Dauphinous: http://dauphinous.coyotecode.net/rangerclass.html

One of the primary virtues of this class, which is still in play-testing, is that it grants a feat of some kind at every level - whether specifically limited bonus feats, class flavor feats, or simple HD accumulation feats. I haven't optimized my character, so he can't shoot anything from anywhere, but it's close.

The keys, I think, are Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, and full BAB, plus nifty bows and arrows that deal multiple kinds of damage.

Ring of Dexterity and all, the character has a DEX of 18. With a BAB of 10 and AB of 14. Higher, if he's attacking a favored enemy, is being sung over by a bard, has attack bonus granting items, etc.

With PBS, PS, and RS, he can attack a non-favored target at close range with three arrows per round at practically no penalty, even if the target is in melee with someone else. This is the primary virtue of PBS, I think: It cuts the RS attack penalties in half. If he does have things that grant bonuses to attack, the RS penalty disappears entirely.

Edit: I realized this alone is more of a guaranteed hit build.

With a composite longbow, mundane ammo, and three criticals, an archer can do 70+(STR Bonus x 3) damage to a non-favored enemy per round. If the bow or arrows are enchanted, or the enemy is favored, things get more interesting.

Using the bow and arrows currently equipped by the character, in a perfect round, he can do 140+ damage to his most favored enemey

Ramza00
2007-03-27, 11:31 AM
Look at my post in the 5rd post of this post. I posted a link. Inside that link Solgerb did a full strength fighter damaging archer build. Also inside the link I gave you in post 5 you will find 2 more links by Phoenix00 (me on Wotc boards) one is an archer build evaluating the nw material from complete scoundrel (thus a scout 3/ranger 17 skrimish build) and then there is a link to ksbnowl's archery builds after that.

Some more archery links besides the ones I already gave you
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=762006
http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-600024
http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-479388
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=599841
http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-242136
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=741963
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=525295
http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-635764

Person_Man
2007-03-27, 12:18 PM
A well-built archer can compete with a melee guy for average damage, if only because they can be making full attack equivalents from the suprise round onwards (using greater manyshot) and don't have to deal with reaching their opponents.

I disagree. A well built melee build should far outstrip a well built archer build in damage per level.

Power Attacks adds +2 per BAB to your damage, and Leap Attack adds +3 or +4 damage per BAB to your damage (depending upon how your DM reads the errata. I use +4). Shock Trooper switches the BAB penalty to your AC, so your To-Hit doesn't suffer.

I can think of at least 21 different ways to gain a full attack at the end of a charge (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5305146).

You can Charge during the surprise round (though you are limited to your normal movement speed). So an archer build will only have an action advantage over a melee build if combat starts and your enemies are more then your movement speed+reach away from you. This is still an advantage for archers, though not a big one, since you don't always get a surprise round, and you can gain extra normal melee attacks (http://boards1.wizards.com/archive/index.php/t-627923.html) or natural attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29095&highlight=natural+attacks) in a wide variety of ways. Extra ranged attacks are pretty limited to the feat intensive archery feat tree, a few spells, plus standard Haste or Speed which also applies to melee attacks.

And there are several ways to multiply the damage from each melee attack, the easiest being Spirited Charge, Headlong Rush, or a Valorous magic weapon. There is no such equivalent for archer builds.

An archer build sacrifices damage, but gains defense - mostly because you can stand far away from your enemies. It's a great idea for a Cleric archer or Hexblade fear build or a Skill Monkey who wants to contribute without getting killed, but it won't deal more damage then a melee build.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-27, 12:21 PM
I can think of at least 21 different ways to gain a full attack at the end of a charge (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5305146).

Do all forms of pounce specify melee attacks? Because a charging, manyshotting, pouncing Scout would be sweet.

Harkone
2007-03-27, 12:33 PM
I used the Peerless Archer from the Silver Marches, along with several other prestige classes, as a basis for my version of the Peerless Archer. I kept that name because it was the most viable of the base prestige classes I used.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-03-27, 12:55 PM
Personally, I fail to see the advantage of Manyshot over Rapid Shot, particularly with a Sniper build. Manyshot uses one shot, which means precision based damage applies to only one arrow, rather than Rapid Shot, which requires seperate rolls for every shot.

I once wrote up a rather interesting rogue-based sniper PrC called Shadow Sniper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11265) which was built for rogues going archer. It has many flavorful abilites, but I don't think it's too overpowered.

Ramza00
2007-03-27, 01:31 PM
Greater Manyshot applies precision damage to each arrow.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot

Now you can move and sneak attack being a hit and run person. Or you can be a skirmisher archer.

Person_Man
2007-03-27, 02:02 PM
Do all forms of pounce specify melee attacks? Because a charging, manyshotting, pouncing Scout would be sweet.

The easiest way to get Full Ranged Attack+Movement is Hustle (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPowersGtoP.html#hustle). There are also a few bizarre magic items floating around that do something similar.


Excellent work everyone. Person Man: Assume I have access to anything 3.5


OK, then I suggest either Cleric Archer a Hexblade Archer.

The Cleric Archer is pretty simple. Cleric X/full caster Prestige Class Y. Be an Elf to get longbow proficiency (or use the War domain, though I think this is a waste compared to other, far better domains). Take the Zen Archery feat if you need it. Look on crystalkeep for a full list of domains, and pick two that give you access to excellent buff and/or battlefield control spells that a cleric otherwise wouldn't have access to. I suggest looking at Time,Travel, Force, Slime, Trickery, and Illusion. Before combat cast buffs. First round or two of combat, cast battlefield control spells. Then mop everyone up using your bow.

Hexblade archer isn't as powerful and its much more convoluted, but its fun.

Hexblade 4/Monk 3/Disciple of the Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060106a&page=2) 5/Avenging Executioner 5/Blackguard 3 (the most optimal sequencing of the classes are different, but that's the easiest way to write it). Avenging Executioner is from Complete Scoundrel.

Take the PHBII Dark Companion alternative to give your enemies a penalty to their Saves. Take the Frightful Presence feat from the Draconomicon. Now whenever you make an attack, your enemies will have to make at least one save per attack vs. various Fear effects. Fear effects stack, and if anyone fails more then one Save, the battle is pretty much over for them. Then just shoot your enemies in the back until they die. You also have Evasion, Mettle, and insanely high saving throws, so you're essentially 95% immune to anything that requires a Save, including most magic. And since you're an archer, you can avoid the front line of combat. The downside is that just like Sneak Attack, tons of things are immune to your fear effects, including all undead, constructs, plants, vermin, etc. But unlike Rogue builds, Hexblade builds have much better defenses and slightly higher BAB.

Notice that neither build tries to maximize damage. Although it sounds retarded, you should always remember that your goal in combat is not to deal damage, but to win combat. If you can incapacitate your foes using magic or Fear, you've won. Attempting to deal damage through attacks has a statistical probability of failure that is much higher then No Save battlefield control magic or 4+ Saves per round from Fear effects.

Iggero
2007-03-27, 04:30 PM
I truly wish I had the disposable income and free time for all of these. Perhaps one or another will help my future campaigns. The comments about wind wall are accurate, but one must also consider simply sing the arrows as a distraction: if your fighter is getting turned into a pincushion the wizard will have to do something about that. Even a momentary distraction can allow an archer to slip around the wall.

As to halfling archers: yea, they can only domassive damage with a sneak attack, but that is why you multi-class into invisible blade and master thrower: all attacks agaisnt larger opponents resolved as touch, and sneak attack if you qualify? Rather nice by my book. A few tricks also allow increaed number of attacks per round, so 1d3 over and over again starts to look a little nicer.

Ikkitosen
2007-03-27, 06:04 PM
I disagree. A well built melee build should far outstrip a well built archer build in damage per level...

A ha! But you'll note I said "well built archer build" and "melee build". Of course a melee build will win if both are done well; you risk a lot more, and let's be honest the game is initially based around Getting Close And Hitting Things. However, you can play a slightly twinked archer in a "normal" party and do just fine, which is nice. Still, we all know that the ultimate party is a combination of clerics, wizards and druids, so why bother playing anything else? :smallsigh:

Fax Celestis
2007-03-27, 06:10 PM
One could play a strange archer and play a Sorceror/Knifeclouder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38671). </shamelessselfpromotion>