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View Full Version : DM Help Help me make the riddle of The Sword of Valor



Kol Korran
2014-12-02, 05:24 AM
This is for a game using the PF module "The Sword of Valor", but requires no knowledge of the system or the module itself. In fact, I'm stepping quite out of what the module had in mind.

In some classic fantasy stories (The continuation of the Oz series for example), The protagonists seek something, which has changed form, but they do not know to what. Usually there is a huge number of items to choose from, but some sort of a limitation on choosing (A bad effect if you choose wrong. In Oz you got turned to one of the many items).

In my adventure, the party enters an old dwarven fortress, that got invaded and inhabited by demons for some decades. In the fortress there is a magical banner (artifact) dedicated to the god of good, righteousness and so on, that was used to protect fortresses, and enhance armies fighting against demons. The banner is called "Sword of Valor" (Can't find a picture).

The party comes into the fort, seeking this banner, but it becomes a big complicated trap, as the entire fort is inhbited by an anti paladin ghost, who long ago betrayed the fort, taking the defense, the Sword of Valor out, and then later joining with the demons who now inhabit it, then leading it, nd lastly becoming part of the trap to tke down the heroes.

Now, the party needs to find this banner, as it is key to undoing this trap. While the demons were no longer able to remove the banner from the fort, they could mask it's good auras and... make it appear as something else entirely.

Which leads me to the "riddle": The idea is that the party tries to find what is the real banner, which can basically be anything in the fort. But the banner itself exert some influence on how it looks, so SOME thematic resemblance should prevail. It shouldn't be very obvious, but also not that obscure. I want to void the "guess what I'm thinking" pitfall of most problems, so possibly a few items could be the banner, of the party gives a good enough in game explanation? Or there might be also some clues spread somewhere as to the nature of the "mask" the banner takes upon itself.

So what am I looking for?
- What might the banner look like? What sort of clues might lead to it?
- What other items should I put? (From the obviously not appropriate, to the similar but "not quite")
- What sort of re precautions might come from choosing a wrong item? (I'm looking for not immediately lethal/ incapacitating, but something that will be felt by the players, not a minor set back)

Note: While the Sword of Valor should not be "in your face", it should not require meticulate and long time consuming searches. The party is on a serious time pressure, they won't have time to look for secret doors and the like.

Thanks in advance for helping my game,
Kol. :smallsmile:

Vitruviansquid
2014-12-02, 05:54 AM
What about multiple banners? Dwarves love their history, so their banner probably depicts a lot of different crap from a certain clan's or order's or nation's history.

The demons hide the true Sword of Valor by putting multiple other, fake banners wherever it's being displayed. Because the Sword of Valor is so loathesome to them, they are unable to make other Swords of Valor that are identical to it in appearance, so you get other banners that display different colors, different iconography, and have pictures of different historical events on them.

While the party makes it way into the fortress, they might find clues about the fortress's and the banner's history, like (and dress this up more than I do)

- the Banner was present at a battle where a few dwarves made a hopeless last stand against a tide of demons but were saved by the banner's miracle. Afterward, they added to the banner an icon of a broken helmet representing that battle.
- there were four original weavers of the banner, and all are revered as master craftsmen.
- the fortress was held jointly by two clans. One clan's arms is grey and blue with crossed hammers, the other clan's arms is Black with four golden stars.
- the first clan commissioned the banner to begin with, so the banner features crossed hammers more prominently than stars.

Then the room in which the banners are has the following:

- A banner depicting two blue dwarves shaking hands over a grey field. They are framed in a border of golden thread. Under each dwarf's foot is a pair of stag horns.
- A banner depicting four gold stars in the center on a field of black. There are two purple chipped axes on either side of the stars, each held by a purple dwarf. At the bottom is a scroll on which is written "Courage to Honor Our Fathers."
- A banner depicting four small black dwarves at each corner. Each dwarf is holding a golden star. There is an icon of grey crossed hammers in the dead center of the banner, on a field of blue. Above the crossed hammers is a rather flat icon of a broken helmet.
- As many other banners as you see fit. A 33% of guessing it correctly by random seems to make enough sense to me.

You could draw each banner or write them on a list to hand to the players. Let players obtain evidence that points to the correct banner by using skill checks throughout their activities in the fortress and advise your players to record what they find out about the fortress. You might also throw in observations about the fortress that have nothing to do with the banner in order to give your players more of a feeling that they're exploring ancient dwarven history. Of course, make it possible for your players to be unable to find some of the histories they would need to locate the correct banner and make the decoy banners resemble the genuine article enough that your players might be able to narrow it down to a guess if they failed some checks but made others.

Gavran
2014-12-02, 06:38 AM
I really feel a Dwarf Fortress joke here but I just haven't quite put it together...

All I can say for certain is that The Sword of Valor menaces with spikes of walnut.

Kol Korran
2014-12-03, 07:08 AM
Great idea about various "fake" banners, and using the fort's history. I like your idea, only... the characters already know how the banner looks like. (It's kind of famous and the reason they undertook this long mission). It's also not directly tied to the dwarves which inhabited the place, but rather the mortal- turned- deity (Iomedae of Golrion), who used it in previous battles, and left it for the mortals in the tribulations to come.

As I explained in the OP, I wanted to have the banner poly morphed into another object, only this is not an entirely random object, but something that thematically retains some semblance to he ideals of the banner. One obvious idea would be some sort of a sword, but I want it to be more subtle, with other possible "fakes", which may cause some lash back at the characters (Not yet sure what).

Though I'll keep the banners idea for another game! :smallwink:

Cazero
2014-12-03, 07:29 AM
One obvious idea would be some sort of a sword, but I want it to be more subtle, with other possible "fakes", which may cause some lash back at the characters (Not yet sure what).

You could have it polymorphed into an axe.
After all, a sword is a weapon of war, wich is more often than not an evil event, while the axe is the tool for lawful execution and has practical uses outside of the murder department, making it a much more "good" weapon.

The demons then put the axe with others weapons including a sword. The sword is the obvious choice, but then recursive reverse psychology kicks in and your players wonder what is the actual Sword of Valor.

Kol Korran
2014-12-05, 02:25 AM
You could have it polymorphed into an axe.
After all, a sword is a weapon of war, wich is more often than not an evil event, while the axe is the tool for lawful execution and has practical uses outside of the murder department, making it a much more "good" weapon.

The demons then put the axe with others weapons including a sword. The sword is the obvious choice, but then reverse psychology kicks in and your players wonder what is the actual Sword of Valor.

Sorry for the late relpy, some busy time.

An axe is interesting s an alternate weapon. I would like to play on their (possible assumption), of it being a sword and proving that it is not, but I don't buy the explanation that it's an axe. It is more useful, but not more "good/ valorous/ chivalrous" and the like...

Hmmmm... I have a few vague ideas, but this may prove more troublesome than I've thought, mainly since there is little to no information about the actual banner, so there is little to link to... Perhaps I should invent something? Problem is, the session is tomorrow. Hmmm... :smallfrown:

Cazero
2014-12-05, 03:26 AM
An axe is interesting s an alternate weapon. I would like to play on their (possible assumption), of it being a sword and proving that it is not, but I don't buy the explanation that it's an axe. It is more useful, but not more "good/ valorous/ chivalrous" and the like...

I admit my axe explanation is not good. But I have better now.
Since the Sword of Valor has always been a banner and not a weapon, the word "sword" in it's name never designated what it is. In fact, it could be a mistranslation for "weapon", "warrior symbol", or some similar concept.
Since the fortress is dwarven I assumed the banner is dwarven to begin with (but I might be wrong on that). And the symbolic dwarf weapon is usually not a sword, but an axe.
Same principle can be applied to turn it into any typical [species] weapon that is not a sword. It could even be a shield if it is actually symbolic of the god's protection in war.


Now, the problem would be to give them clues to pick the "right" Sword of Valor among "wrong" options.

For starter, you need wrong choices, wich is the easy part. Demons polymorphed various items into other weapons or banners for people to mistake them with the Sword of Valor.

Then, you need consequences for wrong choices. Without those, your players will just pick everything and sort it out later.
Some of the decoys could be cursed, but that would be too obvious and unreliable, depending of how players pick them.
Since the PCs are in a rush, mechanical traps can be enough. They don't have enough time to disarm them all, each trap triggered cost them some healing ressources, and triggering too many of them would be certain death.
It also explains why demons would chose to put the real Sword of Valor on an exposed but already trapped place rather than hide it in the deepest secret spot they can find.
A dwarven exposition room, where they used to put some of their best pieces of art, would fit perfectly and open the possibility to desactivate the traps with secret switches, if your players can find them.

Now, clues. That's the hard part, and unfortunately, I don't have that many ideas.
For the banner into axe-or-something-else part, I have no interesting idea. I feel like a knowledge check wouldn't be satisfying.
For the looting part, they could recognize the exposition room for what it is and conclude that some way to disarm the traps easily must exist. It might be done by finding an old museum registry or with a knowledge check.

Kol Korran
2014-12-06, 06:34 PM
I admit my axe explanation is not good. But I have better now.
Since the Sword of Valor has always been a banner and not a weapon, the word "sword" in it's name never designated what it is. In fact, it could be a mistranslation for "weapon", "warrior symbol", or some similar concept.
Since the fortress is dwarven I assumed the banner is dwarven to begin with (but I might be wrong on that). And the symbolic dwarf weapon is usually not a sword, but an axe.
Same principle can be applied to turn it into any typical [species] weapon that is not a sword. It could even be a shield if it is actually symbolic of the god's protection in war.


Now, the problem would be to give them clues to pick the "right" Sword of Valor among "wrong" options.

For starter, you need wrong choices, wich is the easy part. Demons polymorphed various items into other weapons or banners for people to mistake them with the Sword of Valor.

Then, you need consequences for wrong choices. Without those, your players will just pick everything and sort it out later.
Some of the decoys could be cursed, but that would be too obvious and unreliable, depending of how players pick them.
Since the PCs are in a rush, mechanical traps can be enough. They don't have enough time to disarm them all, each trap triggered cost them some healing ressources, and triggering too many of them would be certain death.
It also explains why demons would chose to put the real Sword of Valor on an exposed but already trapped place rather than hide it in the deepest secret spot they can find.
A dwarven exposition room, where they used to put some of their best pieces of art, would fit perfectly and open the possibility to deactivate the traps with secret switches, if your players can find them.

Now, clues. That's the hard part, and unfortunately, I don't have that many ideas.
For the banner into axe-or-something-else part, I have no interesting idea. I feel like a knowledge check wouldn't be satisfying.
For the looting part, they could recognize the exposition room for what it is and conclude that some way to disarm the traps easily must exist. It might be done by finding an old museum registry or with a knowledge check.
Thanks for the suggestions! Much Appreciated. I read it earlier, but I didn't have the time to properly respond. I just came back from the session, and on the whole The design was as this:
- The fort is quite big. In various rooms I've listed "special item features", Which are prominent items which the party might likely try and try to turn. These range from Sword with that and that inscription, a vista of stars, an ever burning hearth, a prayer book with one main prayer remaining, and so on. There are A LOT of such items, more than the party has Mythic power points (Getting to that). Most are obvious decoys, some are smarter.

- In order to subvert such magic, they needed to use Mythic Power- a limited resource in PF games using mythic characters- basically it's a limited reservoir that enables them to do incredible feats, beyond those of other heroes (Cast more spells, more devastating attacks and so on). 3 of the characters begin at 7 mythic power points per day, 1 begins at 9. They are now down to 1,4,4 and 5 or so. This is a very precious resource, and the only way to get more is rest, which they can't due to some other time pressure...

- The place is possessed by a malevolent spirit which trapped them there, and seeks to destroy them. It talks with them, and they can talk with it, and at times they enter a sort of memory/ vision/ reflection of it's past. In these memories some clues are hidden, but they are subtle.

But there is another presence in this place, a beneficial one, that of a mentor to a PC that was captured. It tries to send similar memories to the characters. The clues here are more obvious in nature (The first two clues for example hinted at using mythic power and that the sword of valor is polymorphed, but it hides some of it's true nature).

- Now, as to the Sword of Valor itself... I'm still conflicted. I wish to evade the "Guess what I'm thinking!" Kind of riddle (I basically ask them "What is Valor?" Which different people can perceive differently). They will learn that it's supposed to mean Valor, but also betrayal. I have placed a few items in the fort that can be given that interpretation, and I will be willing to accept others, if the party comes with a good enough RP answer. I'm still a bit hazy on that. The Players have not gone a fair share, but their resources (Not just Mythic power), Is depleting at an alarming rate.

I guess my question is: Is it ok to put several potential solutions, just to make the riddle more open to different interpretations, enable a more open game, or is that "cheating" on the real challenge?

So far 3 "Items" (Though I may add more):
- A shattered mirror: The heroes (Or their reflections) Are the real Valor. A betrayer cannot show his face.
- A dampened hooded/ reinforced lamp: Valor is to light a light in the darkness. (May need a special feature or two. Or a specific location). A betrayal snuffs the light and throws the world into darkness.
- A Great pit: A leap of courage, the great fall.

Other suggestions, criticism, angry or welcomign sentiments are encouraged. The idea may yet change.

Thanks again! :smallsmile:

Coventry
2014-12-08, 12:10 AM
Demons are not subtle, but they will pervert what they can. The opposite of Valor is Cowardice.

Take a suit of armor, which was engraved with it's owner's name, deface it, and re-position it so that it is cowering in fear. Drape the Sword of Valor over that armor, like it is a tabard. Change the color so that most of the banner is one color, say grey or white. But the back has a yellow stripe.

- Present the Sign of the Golden Blade.
- Turn around that which has been turned.
- Anti-paladin taunt: "(name engraved on armor) may have beaten me in life, but see how he cowers before me now! Cower before me, fools!"

Kol Korran
2014-12-09, 01:15 PM
Demons are not subtle, but they will pervert what they can. The opposite of Valor is Cowardice.

Take a suit of armor, which was engraved with it's owner's name, deface it, and re-position it so that it is cowering in fear. Drape the Sword of Valor over that armor, like it is a tabard. Change the color so that most of the banner is one color, say grey or white. But the back has a yellow stripe.

- Present the Sign of the Golden Blade.
- Turn around that which has been turned.
- Anti-paladin taunt: "(name engraved on armor) may have beaten me in life, but see how he cowers before me now! Cower before me, fools!"

It's an interesting concept... but it just feels a bit too... straightforward, and when they will come upon it, it would look too suspicious (Armor poised in a certain way, the name, the stripe of yellow). I'm looking for something that could be seen as "just a mundane object", with a slight twist showing the betrayal that led to the loss of the banner, with it up to the PCs to make the jump that this might be it- no hard and concrete proof.

Frenth Alunril
2014-12-09, 02:04 PM
Oh my goodness!

Discretion is the better part of valor!

It's a 10' pole!