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Fax Celestis
2007-03-26, 12:46 PM
I find these changes help balance high-level casters immensely. Certainly, they're still powerful, but they're not the demigods they are normally.

1. Contingency - removed
2. Time Stop - removed
3. Persistant Spell Metamagic - removed
4. Spells of the Polymorph Subschool - removed
5. Wild Shape - replaced by the PHB-II Shapechange variant
6. Clerics - Replaced by the UA Cloistered Cleric variant
7. Divine Power - accessible by War domain only

Thoughts?

marjan
2007-03-26, 01:02 PM
That would be nice begining but there are more spells out there that need to be at least balanced somehow.

As for cloistered cleric: I actualy like them (6+int skill points are what I like most) and I don't see that big disadvantage when compared to standard cleric. He does have low BAB but that can be offset by Divine Power (which is maybe one of the spells that should be removed) and while not being able to wear heavy armor can hurt, the mobility you get in mithral breastplate may be worth lower AC.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-26, 01:05 PM
Right, I forgot about that. I'll add that.

Ramza00
2007-03-26, 01:13 PM
We covered this already. 8 different specialist similar to beguiler, warmage, and dread necro.

and/or

Use psionics for a "generalist"

and/or

Significantly rework the D&D spell list. Axing some spells (shivering touch, timestop,polymorph), significantly modifying others (wrathstrike is now a wiz/sorc 5th lvl spell, creating polymorph light where you select from a list of forms such as a trollshape), and then allowing a wizard/sorcerer to select from the new list.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-26, 01:15 PM
We covered this already. 8 different specialist similar to beguiler, warmage, and dread necro.

and/or

Use psionics for a "generalist"

and/or

Significantly rework the D&D spell list. Axing some spells (shivering touch, timestop,polymorph), significantly modifying others (wrathstrike is now a wiz/sorc 5th lvl spell, creating polymorph light where you select from a list of forms such as a trollshape), and then allowing a wizard/sorcerer to select from the new list.

Actually, on that note about Polymorph: what would you say to polymorph only allowing forms available for summoning through Summon Monster I-IX, and breaking Polymorph into several versions (say, a 3rd, a 5th, a 7th, and a 9th)?

NullAshton
2007-03-26, 01:18 PM
Perhaps another way to balance Polymorph is for the DM to say, 'You can use this form, you can't use this form.' Possibly with a bit of 'research' time to actually be able to polymorph into a form, and if the DM doesn't like the form that much, he can just say that you failed your research in some way.

marjan
2007-03-26, 01:23 PM
Actually, on that note about Polymorph: what would you say to polymorph only allowing forms available for summoning through Summon Monster I-IX, and breaking Polymorph into several versions (say, a 3rd, a 5th, a 7th, and a 9th)?

Resticting Polymorph to just certain forms would probably do the trick, although I'm not sure if Summon Monster list would be apropriate. Some of the monsters are on the list mostly because of their spell-like and/or supernatural abilities so transforming into one of them would be quite useless most of the time unless you need that exact shape and size for some reason.

Edit:^^^ This is what you get for slow typing. :smallfrown:

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-26, 01:31 PM
Maybe making it similar to the Complete Mage polymorph spells, where each spell applies to only one from, so making it apply to the more exotic monsters would require researching the spell, always an expensive proposition.

And what about making spells that ignore SR higher level than they would ordinarily be, like orb spells, and making spell resistance an actual threat, maybe by letting a caster apply only 1/2 caster level to their caster level check?

its_all_ogre
2007-03-26, 01:33 PM
the problem with the research idea in my mind is that an npc lich has had centuries to do nothing but study, remaining hidden and threatening nobody.

then an npc has access to nasty surprises that pcs do not.

unless your world has no liches and elves do not live for hundreds of years and....so on.

Ramza00
2007-03-26, 01:38 PM
Ban normal polymorph spells.

Use the polymorph sub school with a couple caveats. Then make spells based off the polymorph subschool. Do not allow the form to get the form's spellcasting/psionic powers (such as if I do an illithid I am a 9th lvl telepath), or if you do allow it make it so you can cast only one spell or something. Second do something similar to the spell like abilities and any special su/ex ability that will give a dm headache. (Most monsters are like that in CMage/PHB2 which use the polymorph subschool, like you can only use one eye with a beholder per round and each eye only once)

Remember with the polymorph subschool you become the monster. You can't use items (well you can if you aren't wearing them when you cast the spell you then have to put the items back on, a short duration/or a dm saying no fixes this), you can't use your feats, spells, or class options (since those are your innate qualities), its pretty much a 1 to 1 switch with the monster excep you have far less hps than the monster. Then by allowing which forms you can access by a rough spell level to cr you fix most of the problem with polymorph, effectively you have created something similar to how the PHB2 did druids and shapeshifting.

Ramza00
2007-03-26, 01:39 PM
You can read the polymorph subschool rules free here as an excerpt.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=5

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-26, 01:41 PM
the problem with the research idea in my mind is that an npc lich has had centuries to do nothing but study, remaining hidden and threatening nobody.

then an npc has access to nasty surprises that pcs do not.

unless your world has no liches and elves do not live for hundreds of years and....so on.

Well, to research the spell, you would have to have several of the creatures, so the lich would have to leave his liar for long periods of time, plus the fact that the spell doesn't automatically work, and the fact that most of the favorite choices would be either level 9 or epic, the chance of making a working spell would be pretty hard. Plus, I have always viewed Polymorph as a very tricky set of spells, and so the accidents would likely out weigh the benefits, and that would also answer the question of why there are so few of these spells around. If theres a good chance that you'll be permanently change into one of these things, there will be a lot less incentive to play on.

Ramza00
2007-03-26, 01:43 PM
And with the polymorph subschool I would allow the forms you can roughly assume be like this.

Spell Level 1=Cr 1/2
Spell Level 2=Cr 1.5 Forms
Spell Level 3=Cr 3 Forms
Spell Level 4=Cr 5 Forms
Spell Level 5=Cr 7 Forms
Spell Level 6=Cr 9 Forms
Spell Level 7=Cr 11 Forms
Spell Level 8=Cr 13 Forms
Spell Level 9=Cr 15 Forms

Ramza00
2007-03-26, 01:45 PM
Note if you do the polymorph subschool idea with about 50 different transmutation polymorph spells I would also make a "arcane specialist" that focuses on these such as a beguiler who has all of them on his list. His speciality is the transformation aspect of transmutation, plus a few of the other transmutation spells as utility spells.

In effect make something more like a full base class master of many forms/shifter but far more balanced and regular (either I am weak or I am super strong)

marjan
2007-03-26, 01:47 PM
And what about making spells that ignore SR higher level than they would ordinarily be, like orb spells, and making spell resistance an actual threat, maybe by letting a caster apply only 1/2 caster level to their caster level check?


Nerfing spells that don't allow spell resistance would be good, but I think that some of them are nerfed already and there is no way to nerf others (like forcecage). Applying only half CL to spell penetration check would nake no SR spells better so it would mean you need to nerf some of them even more. And some monsters would need their SR lowered too. For example Balor has SR 32 so if you roll caster level check this would mean that you add only +10 to it (no way to beat it) if you have Greater Spell Penetration you need 18 too beat it and with Assay Resistance you'll need 8 (which considering that you spent 2 feats 1 4th lvl spell slot 1 standard action would mean that it isn't even worth it).
Besides most game-breaking spells don't even allow SR.

Gavis
2007-03-26, 02:03 PM
Ok so this is crazy no matter how much you limmit casters or shapers short of removing thier spellcasting/shaping ability all together you arent going to stop a spell casting class from being "over powered" learn to make a character that is effective is the answer to this problem.....if you have a serious problem with casters in your campaign (especially against non caster types) try looking at the mage slayer feat or the occult slayer prestidge class then get right in their faces with a nice melee weapon mage slayer makes it so casters can't cast defensively while you threaten them so if they choose to cast they provoke an attack of opportunity.....in short wizards of the coast makes a counter to basically anything you can make if you are smart about it and take the right feats/ build your character right

marjan
2007-03-26, 02:09 PM
while you threaten them so if they choose to cast they provoke an attack of opportunity
5 foot step.
And you won't get close enough (at least not alive).

Ramza00
2007-03-26, 02:22 PM
5 foot step.
And you won't get close enough (at least not alive).
May I remind you of this comic
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html

After you reread the comic, read this.
This is why you have multiple little people you throw at the wizard causing him to waste his 5-foot step and a couple contingency type spells, then you throw the teleporter with the big attack onto him. What Bearded Devils are CR 5 and they have greater teleport at will. Succubus is CR 6 and also has greater teleport at will.

The way you beat a wizard is you overwhelm his defense, he got the big guns, but he can't use the big guns on everybody at the same time when he is "acting defensive"

Piccamo
2007-03-26, 02:32 PM
In other words you're saying that wizards are the Death Star, his enemies are flying X-Wings, and his party is tie fighters?

Fax Celestis
2007-03-26, 02:34 PM
In other words you're saying that wizards are the Death Star, his enemies are flying X-Wings, and his party is tie fighters?

To totally ruin any semblance of non-nerdity, yes, you could put it that way.

marjan
2007-03-26, 02:35 PM
May I remind you of this comic
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html

After you reread the comic, read this.
This is why you have multiple little people you throw at the wizard causing him to waste his 5-foot step and a couple contingency type spells, then you throw the teleporter with the big attack onto him. What Bearded Devils are CR 5 and they have greater teleport at will. Succubus is CR 6 and also has greater teleport at will.

The way you beat a wizard is you overwhelm his defense, he got the big guns, but he can't use the big guns on everybody at the same time when he is "acting defensive"

Nice one. Now if you'll excuse me I have to go I'm expecting some bears.:smallbiggrin:

Marius
2007-03-26, 02:49 PM
I banned Rods of metamagic in my games, I think that is a good nerf.

marjan
2007-03-26, 02:51 PM
BTW, are we talking about Core-only here? If not the list is gonna be much much longer.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-26, 02:52 PM
BTW, are we talking about Core-only here? If not the list is gonna be much much longer.

Whatever you think.

Morty
2007-03-26, 02:58 PM
I'll personally seriously nerf all spells that don't allow SR and saves, as well as self-buffs - basically everything that makes wizards so untouchable. Teleportation, too.
As for cloistered cleric instead of normal cleric- that's simple and efficent, but I'll alter the class a little. Like, take away "Bardic" Lore and give something else instead.

melchizedek
2007-03-26, 03:02 PM
I don't like wizards at all and am probably going to ban them entirely in my next game. The sorcerer is a far more reasonable Arcane Caster. With a few changes to the spell list, a sorcerer shouldn't be a problem.

marjan
2007-03-26, 03:04 PM
Assay Resistance might need to be removed since it practicaly negates the need of (Greater)Spell Penetration feats and lets you beat almost any SR. Contigent Spell feat.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-26, 03:06 PM
Ok so this is crazy no matter how much you limmit casters or shapers short of removing thier spellcasting/shaping ability all together you arent going to stop a spell casting class from being "over powered" learn to make a character that is effective is the answer to this problem.....if you have a serious problem with casters in your campaign (especially against non caster types) try looking at the mage slayer feat or the occult slayer prestidge class then get right in their faces with a nice melee weapon mage slayer makes it so casters can't cast defensively while you threaten them so if they choose to cast they provoke an attack of opportunity.....in short wizards of the coast makes a counter to basically anything you can make if you are smart about it and take the right feats/ build your character right
Incorrect. I can make a wizard that the only way a non caster stands a chance of killing him is with about 10 in game years to prepare and lots of luck. A single mistake by the non caster and he is dead.

hewhosaysfish
2007-03-26, 03:10 PM
Why does this thread declare itself to be "v1.0" in the title? :smallconfused:
I think you've dropped a couple of zeroes Fax. And picked up an extra decimal point...

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-03-26, 03:21 PM
Hm...seems simple enough, which is always a plus, doesn't involve significant amounts of revision (and thus doesn't need to be checked for CR validity).

I'd say this works as a 'fix' for a great many games- but I'm not sure how well just these changes would address the problems with magic's overall flexibility in a game where players have the initiative, experience, and time to use more far-flung source-books- and of course, in a vacuum, the wizard's superior movement options still give him a vast edge.

With an upgrade to fighter combat abilities, this could work for most games, yiss yiss.

Honestly? I won't necessarily use this in this form, so no simple yoink this time (unlike most of your recent works) but I do like some of these things, and some of the elements (such as the shapechange variant) are gaining so much momentum from various quarters as to be de riguer for anyone attempting to balance the magi.
In summary, nice.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-26, 03:22 PM
I'd like to see more restrictions on clerics' spell list based on their domain choices.

the_tick_rules
2007-03-26, 03:37 PM
well it's also important to remember that classes are designed to be balanced in PC's going against monsters, not so much each other.

ambu
2007-03-26, 03:39 PM
There should also be a change in spells that mimic skills with absolute success. For example:
Knock: You get a +10 to all Open Locks

See this:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33280

marjan
2007-03-26, 03:44 PM
There should also be a change in spells that mimic skills with absolute success. For example:
Knock: You get a +10 to all Open Locks

See this:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33280

I don't think that needs to be done. Most wizards use those spells when there is nobody to open lock, otherwise they have better spells to fill their second level spell slots with.

Whamme
2007-03-26, 04:23 PM
Nerfing spells that don't allow spell resistance would be good, but I think that some of them are nerfed already and there is no way to nerf others (like forcecage). Applying only half CL to spell penetration check would nake no SR spells better so it would mean you need to nerf some of them even more. And some monsters would need their SR lowered too. For example Balor has SR 32 so if you roll caster level check this would mean that you add only +10 to it (no way to beat it) if you have Greater Spell Penetration you need 18 too beat it and with Assay Resistance you'll need 8 (which considering that you spent 2 feats 1 4th lvl spell slot 1 standard action would mean that it isn't even worth it).
Besides most game-breaking spells don't even allow SR.

Sure you can nerf ForceCage. Let the target make a reflex save to end up outside the ForceCage when you cast it, on the side they choose. :)

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-26, 04:26 PM
Sure you can nerf ForceCage. Let the target make a reflex save to end up outside the ForceCage when you cast it, on the side they choose. :)

Or give the bars a hardness and Hp.

marjan
2007-03-26, 04:28 PM
Sure you can nerf ForceCage. Let the target make a reflex save to end up outside the ForceCage when you cast it, on the side they choose. :)

Yes but that still doesn't solve the problem if used with Time Stop. Unless you also ban Time Stop.


Or give the bars a hardness and Hp.

This could work just fine, but being able to smash force effect doesn't make much sense.

Norsesmithy
2007-03-26, 06:50 PM
Change several of the Ray spells into touch spells, give seven levels of casting, instead of Nine, pre epic, change a few no saving throw spells to saving throw, give all melee classes better saves, and the high save meleeists (Paladins and Monks) a bonus, or a better bonus, to saving throws.

Of course this ends up being kind of crude, and a complete rework of the casting classes would be better, but I haven't finished even a rough draft of that one yet.

headwarpage
2007-03-26, 07:15 PM
I'm working on a universal spellcaster nerf, actually. I'm thinking of dropping 9th level spells entirely and slowing spell progression at higher levels so that casters don't get 8th level spells until at least 18th level, maybe even later. It's sort of designed for a lower-magic setting, but I wonder if it might balance some things out in general.

This goes along with severe limits on truly broken spells like polymorph (if not outright banning).

clericwithnogod
2007-03-26, 07:21 PM
Cloisteered cleric over cleric is a wash or an upgrade over the standard cleric for almost anyone. A bonus domain, 4 more skill points and a few more spells in exchange for 1 HP per level and losing an armor proficiency. You can do all the same things you did before just as well can use one feat to make up for the hit point loss. Picking up the celerity Domain gives you another 10' of movement so you can cruise in your Mitrhil Breastplate at 40' and pick up some cross-class ranks in Tumble and Jump with your extra skill points and have no penalty to your rolls.

Removing Divine Power leaves them ineffective in melee, making them no fun to play. The class relegated to a support-only role. Many clerics, especially clerics of a war gods, should be great in melee, and clerics of war gods should definitely be great in melee more often than once per day.

Tellah
2007-03-26, 07:52 PM
I'd also like to recommend reducing the cost of Spell Resistance. Reduce the cost of SR 13 to a +1 bonus, SR 15 = +2, etc. As-is, it's too expensive to wear armor with SR of any real value.

greenknight
2007-03-26, 08:27 PM
For a Cleric, remove the ability to Rebuke or Command Undead, unless it's significantly harder to do than Turn/Destroy Undead (for that matter, it should be easier to destroy undead than it is now). Significantly reduce the duration of the Domination type spells (maybe to 1 minute per level), and make it so that a dominated creature won't give away its items or place itself in an obviously vulnerable situation.

Remove the Gate spell, or significantly change it so that it can't access such high HD creatures (and make sure Gated and Summoned creatures cannot Gate or Summon, and that they won't use powerful special abilities like Wish). Change the Polymorph and Shapechange spells so they work more like templates. Ditto with Wild Shape. Significantly reduce the number of harmful spells with no save, and make it so that most of the rest are Touch range and only affect one creature per casting. Mage's Disjunction probably needs a rework, since it's too powerful in its current form (although it's worse for spellcasters).

Remove all items which give a caster level bonus and/or free metamagic feats. Also remove all spells, spell-like abilities, extraordinary and supernatural effects which allow the caster to cast multiple spells in a single (effective) round (this means Time Stop, and the Celerity spells from PHBII, as well as the time abilities of a Planer Shepard, but the Quicken Spell feat would still work). Remove Contingency and similar spells.

Reduce all Long range spells to Medium range. Limit spells which provide a Teleport/Dimension Door effect, and make it so that when a character uses these spells, they have to wait a round to recover (so that they can't use them to gain Surprise).

There's more, but the basic idea is to find everything which is currently making spellcasters so powerful and either nerfing it completely or re-writing it so it's not as overpowering.

clericwithnogod
2007-03-26, 09:26 PM
For a Cleric, remove the ability to Rebuke or Command Undead, unless it's significantly harder to do than Turn/Destroy Undead (for that matter, it should be easier to destroy undead than it is now).


I've never seen Rebuke/Command be overpowering, though it can be cumbersome dragging everything around. But, that's a problem for all of the necromancery things - they're hard to manage in game unless you get a couple good things rather than a horde of stiffs.

The turning mechanic is just bad and the alternate (doing d6 damage or whatever in a burst) is just blah. Turning undead encounters into an instant or near-instant win doesn't help either though.



Significantly reduce the duration of the Domination type spells (maybe to 1 minute per level), and make it so that a dominated creature won't give away its items or place itself in an obviously vulnerable situation.


Doing this addresses one type of save or die/suck/do nothing. The problem is this pretty much makes a bunch of spells into Charm Person.



Remove all items which give a caster level bonus and/or free metamagic feats. Also remove all spells, spell-like abilities, extraordinary and supernatural effects which allow the caster to cast multiple spells in a single (effective) round (this means Time Stop, and the Celerity spells from PHBII, as well as the time abilities of a Planer Shepard, but the Quicken Spell feat would still work). Remove Contingency and similar spells.


I agree with everything here except regarding the Quicken Spell feat, which should be removed and replaced with Swift versions of appropriate spells with a level commensurate to their power.



Reduce all Long range spells to Medium range. Limit spells which provide a Teleport/Dimension Door effect, and make it so that when a character uses these spells, they have to wait a round to recover (so that they can't use them to gain Surprise).


You don't gain automatic surprise because you teleported in. Surprise depends on you being aware of the opponent. If you pop in in front of someone and they see you, they're aware. If you pop in and they see you, but you're facing the other direction, you're not aware. The only way you can (almost) guarantee surprise is with scrying or some other type of divination to make sure you arrive in the right place facing the right direction relevant to who/what's there. Divination is what really messes things up, not only for this, but for a lot of other things.

There are reasons such as economics and storyline issues for not wanting long range teleports in some campaigns, but they work in some campaigns as well.

Raum
2007-03-26, 09:45 PM
I started working on a similar list a while ago. Here's what I had thought of before it got pushed behind other priorities...

- There are no classes with complete access (or potentially complete) to all spells. In other words, cleric & druid use favored soul spell progression for spells known and spell slots, wizards are simply replaced by clerics. Half casting classes such as paladin and ranger use bard progression (and spells known) instead. They continue to draw spells from their existing spell lists. All casters cast spontaneously.
- Quicken Spell doesn't exist.
- Divine Metamagic can only use one turn attempt at a time and only lowers metamagic costs by one.
- Natural Spell doesn't exist. Still Spell lets a shape changed caster continue casting as long as they can speak as legibly as their normal form. Silent Spell (in addition to Still) allows them to cast in forms which don't speak clearly. All shapechanged casters (druid and arcane) follow these requirements.

I had considered going through the spells as well, but didn't have the time it would take.

belboz
2007-03-26, 10:40 PM
I can't find it, but about a year ago someone posted a link to a *great* polymorph homebrew.

The idea was that, instead of polymorphing into a particular monster, there were lists of monstrous features (wings, claws, size changes, breath weapons, armor, ooze form, and so on) that, depending on the particular spell level, you could pick various combinations of, getting various combinations of ex abilities/damage bonuses/etc. The selection had to be limited by sense (no wings + ooze form, for example), but didn't have to be limited--and wasn't helped by--the existence of a particular sort of monster. If you knew about a particular monster and had access to all the obvious features, you could of course also use the spell to disguise yourself as that monster.

This made the spell much easier to balance than having to think of all the monsters someone might polymorph into.

Gavis
2007-03-27, 10:12 AM
5 foot step.
And you won't get close enough (at least not alive).

well see thats why most non casters have a decent dex score and probably improved initiative so they usually get the drop on a caster with a nice charge not to mention that most casters (unless specially preped for it) have very few hit points and any fighter worth a damn can probably take one out in one round of effective combat.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-27, 10:23 AM
well see thats why most non casters have a decent dex score and probably improved initiative so they usually get the drop on a caster with a nice charge not to mention that most casters (unless specially preped for it) have very few hit points and any fighter worth a damn can probably take one out in one round of effective combat.
Cercity (I know its spelled wrong)

Ramza00
2007-03-27, 10:27 AM
Celerity. Immediate action so all you have to be is non flat footed and then as a wizard you will always go first.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-27, 10:35 AM
Celerity. Immediate action so all you have to be is non flat footed and then as a wizard you will always go first.
And Foresight stops flat footed from every coming up.

Marius
2007-03-27, 10:48 AM
Or Divine Oracle

Morty
2007-03-27, 11:21 AM
Well, that makes Celerity and Foresight nice additions to Fax's list, isn't it?

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-27, 12:34 PM
M0rt, you can break 90% of the spells in the game.

About the only thing that doesn't break easily spell wise are direct damage spells (like fireball).

So just ban all non evocation spells and your fine. Everything else is very easily broken.

Morty
2007-03-27, 12:39 PM
Well, there's a difference between "breakable" and "blatantly too powerful". Some spells(or feats or whatever) are just too poweful, even if you don't try to break them.

elliott20
2007-03-27, 12:40 PM
or you'd have to change fundamentally how casters cast. i.e. spells take longer to cast, need more resources to cast, replenish slower, what have you.

Ramza00
2007-03-27, 12:40 PM
Celerity definatley goes on the list, its just way too powerful from the get go. Maybe only keeping the immediate action move celerity and boosting the level of it.

Lapak
2007-03-27, 12:46 PM
This could work just fine, but being able to smash force effect doesn't make much sense.Nah. Hulk smashes force fields all the time! But in all seriousness, there's plenty of precedent for energy barriers succumbing to repeated abuse in fantasy fiction and movies. If you wanted to go this route, I'd say give the entire Forcecage a (relatively high) hardness and hit points; when the limit is reached, the whole thing dissolves. That fits in-theme and allows for things like a fearsome beast so strong and furious that it can batter down even the constructs of pure force and will that a wizard can throw into its path.

Scene:


*wizard casts a spell, trapping the Adamant Golem; party breathes a sigh of relief*

Golem: ROAR! *smashes bars*
Wizard: It's - it's too strong! I can't hold it!
Golem: ROAR! *smashes bars*

*party forms ranks, fingers weapons nervously*

Golem: ROAR! *smashes bars into motes of light, wizard staggers*

elliott20
2007-03-27, 01:27 PM
see, once you start down the route of banning broken spells, you might end up just getting rid of 90% of the spells out there because like it or not, magic will almost always trump the mundane in D&D.

The reason wizards can break d&d isn't just because they can do these awesomely powerful things. (if you have a near epic level character, you should be able to anyway, if you ask me.) It's because they can do these AGAIN AND AGAIN without any reprecussions.

We're not talking about mages like say in Arthurian legends or Tolkien where a wizard weighs his options carefully before using his magic, we're talking about people who can on a daily basis level a city 6-7 times if he so wishes. And meteor storm isn't even THAT good of a spell. While casters in other genres are spending long hours preparing and casting their one trump spell, you have D&D wizards who can create an unbreakable cage simply by waving his hand, and do it multiple times.

That's why a true D&D economy would not be anything like a medieval economy because one of the most basic portions of it: that being resources available, is COMPLETELY unregulated, and by RAW it is LIMITLESS.

It's like playing Doom2 with unlimited ammo, and then saying it's boring. When that happens, you don't take away the BFG or the plasma rifle from the game, you turn off the unlimited ammo cheat.

Kioran
2007-03-27, 01:29 PM
A destroyable Force Cage is very nice - allthough it should be difficult to destroy.

A good idea to nerf Spellcasters without destroying the "character" of magic in this game is to significantly slow down the regeneration of spell usages, which would greatly weaken spells like fabrication, creation or knock, which all just replace mundane abilities or logistics. I tend to agree that magic should be potent, I shouldn´t however be able to be the basis of an entire economy.
I´d recommend a system where a Character regains Spellcaster lvls = lvls of spells per period of rest, to a maximum of two "Rests" per day(similiar to total bedrest for HP-Regeneration. If constantly using spells for buffing or replacing mundane work seriously drains your spellcasting power in battle, a lot of mundane skills like lockpicking, Heal or such, as well as carrying necessesary supplies, become more important and worthwhile.

It would do lot towards balancing all but the most broken spells.

I would, for realism and balance, also slightly raise the cost of potions and scrolls.

Edit: Too slow......consider this post to be agreement to the post above.

ravenkith
2007-03-27, 01:39 PM
Polymorph:

MMI only.

-OR-

Need to have fought the monster to get an understanding of it's capabilities in order to become one (minimum 5 rounds while it attacks you or you attack it) & have a reasonably fresh piece of the critter (1 lb of flesh sounds right, nor more than three days old).

Yay gentle repose has a purpose now! :D

Also: If you don't like magic, go play d20 past.

Morty
2007-03-27, 01:52 PM
I'd personally make Polymorph take long and require rare and expensive material components. I'd also make it dangerous and painful process. I's goddamn Polymorph after all. You change your physical form completely.

Yakk
2007-03-27, 02:45 PM
I don't think that needs to be done. Most wizards use those spells when there is nobody to open lock, otherwise they have better spells to fill their second level spell slots with.

And that is the problem.

Because spells rapidly obsolete skills, it makes the skills less important. As you gain levels, a wand with charges of knock becomes trivial in cost (a skelliton key), and it makes high levels of the unlock skill pretty damn niche'd.

Ie: Knock should grant a skill of (10+caster level/2), not a bonus to the skill, with some text about being able to open stuck/rusted doors as well.

For skillmonkeys to compete with spellcasters in the utility department, their skills need to reach or exceed spells in power. This requires toning down the spells that make skills obsolete, together with making skills more impressive at high skill levels.

ambu
2007-03-27, 06:03 PM
I am with Yakk on this one. If spells substitute skills perfectly, especially skills vital to class, then why having that class? It steals something from them. That is the problem with the Codzilla vs. fighter isn't it?

Idea for nerfing casters: The character recovers level+ intelligence mod spell levels per 8 hours rest. So small levels are virtually unchanged but high levels need more resource management.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-27, 06:15 PM
Now force 4 encounters per day on that wizard. If that was all you did then a wizard would just have 1 encounter and then go in the MMM for a bit to get all the spells back. Unless you are combining your idea with the removal of some spells then it is meaningless.

McMouse
2007-03-27, 06:22 PM
Make Force Cage Duration: Concentration.

To be honest, that could fix a large number of annoyingly powerful spells. (The Wall spells, for example.)

martyboy74
2007-03-27, 06:28 PM
You might want to change Contingency to "All Contingent Effects", to be sure to eliminate Crafted Contingent Spells.

belboz
2007-03-28, 11:08 PM
Cleric/druid nerf idea, vaguely inspired by the 7-level pre-3.0 spell progression for these classes (this is an alternative, not an addition, to using the Cloistered variant): Reduce spells/day to 3/4 the usual rate. So you need to be epic to get 9th-level spells, and almost-epic to get 8th-level spells.

Wizard sort-of-nerf idea: Drop all automatic aquisition of spells for wizards, except at 1st level. Make scrolls more expensive to create, and make certain spells quite rare (and thus very expensive, and often impossible, to buy). Primary aquisition of all but the most common spells is through finding scrolls and enemy spellbooks that contain them, during adventures. Gives DM control over what spells go in, and how big a deal they are when they do.

silvadel
2007-03-29, 02:10 AM
I actually like arcana evolved. Monte Cooke's book does a better job of balancing the classes than the standard PHB.

Sir Giacomo
2007-03-29, 04:51 AM
Hi,

some of you may have already stumbled across my weird views, but in my opinion, in almost all cases, casters do not need to be balanced in core; although in the case of expansion rules, it needs very close scrutiny (as does any rules expansion, also those on non-casters, like the tome of battle, or something like the vow of poverty feat for monks etc).

As a short example I'll throw in some late vindication for ravenkith who in a different thread has maintained that shapechanging into different creatures can hamper your spellcasting ability. Somatic components need hands, and what exactly this means is even more specified in the Imbue with Spell Ability spell, when a non-caster receives the ability to use spells: Human-like Hands. Only if the form you chose has some different way to cast spells outlined in its description, you will be able to use spells with somatic components.

But anyhow, back to this thread's main question. Overall, I would say that restrictions on casters serve not a balancing role, but rather a flavour-like/DM-burden-easening role. Truth to tell, the kind of magic and combination potential that is around in the forms of spells and items is staggering, the higher the levels (which is also a reason why there are so few high-level groups playing). It gets very complicated for a DM to provide adequate challenges (and the kind envisioned by the designers like magic-using PC adversaries played as intelligent opponents). Additionally, if a DM wants to have a setting were magic is very rare (like in something close to European middle ages with a bit of wizardry/witchcraft here and there), he may also choose to limit spellcasting ability.

Good examples of how this was done in D&D is the Lankhmar campaign (where spellcasting took a degree longer, i.e. in 3.5 terms a standard action casting time became a full round/several rounds, a summoning spell would take a minute instead of a full round etc.), or the Dragonlance campaign (where at the beginning there was no divine spellcasting at all available to pcs).

Now, doing this is a bit tricky, since then you quickly get into balance issues by deviating from a rather balanced (core) game. If you, for instance, simply use "magic poor" campaign and limit npc casters as well as halve the magic equipment, you actually make pc spellcasters much stronger than before.
Similarly, if you ban teleporting and morphing spells altogether, a wall of force and forcecage become much tougher to overcome for everybody. Etc.

You may make also use of the balance of the core system by simply prohibiting caster classes to progress fully and force them into multi-classing (i.e. for every full caster level, you need to take a non-casting pc or npc class. Say, a wizard player wanting to remain a skinny scholar could eventually become a wizard 10th level/10th level expert, while a bard player rises up to be come a 10th level bard/4th level fighter/6th level rogue.

- Giacomo

Morty
2007-03-29, 08:49 AM
some of you may have already stumbled across my weird views, but in my opinion, in almost all cases, casters do not need to be balanced in core; although in the case of expansion rules, it needs very close scrutiny (as does any rules expansion, also those on non-casters, like the tome of battle, or something like the vow of poverty feat for monks etc).

Casters aren't more balanced in core. Time Stop, Forcecage, MMM, Contingency, Fly, Teleport, Mage's Disjunction, Gate- all these spells and much more are 100% Core. I don't know where does that come from. Core caster is just as broken as non-core, except that non-core siply have a wider choice of being uberpowerful.
BTW, what are the best ways to change touch spell into ranged touch attack?

Meschaelene
2007-03-29, 09:25 AM
The reason wizards can break d&d isn't just because they can do these awesomely powerful things. (if you have a near epic level character, you should be able to anyway, if you ask me.) It's because they can do these AGAIN AND AGAIN without any reprecussions.

<<snip>>

It's like playing Doom2 with unlimited ammo, and then saying it's boring. When that happens, you don't take away the BFG or the plasma rifle from the game, you turn off the unlimited ammo cheat.

I agree -- I plan on 3-4 encounters in a day of adventuring, with a mix of crowd, boss, boss with others, and matched pair encounters. Sure, I sometimes let the casters have their 1 big epic fight, where they can cast all their heavy hitting spells, but I also sometimes have the 6-7 encounter days, where the casters not only have to hold way back on their casting, but are likely using wands and scrolls.

Time Stop wins an encounter, but it does not win two.

Meschaelene
2007-03-29, 09:48 AM
Now force 4 encounters per day on that wizard. If that was all you did then a wizard would just have 1 encounter and then go in the MMM for a bit to get all the spells back. Unless you are combining your idea with the removal of some spells then it is meaningless.

If your DM cannot figure out how to stop that, she is not trying. In the order I would do it:

1. "After spending 4 days (and fighting 4 encounters) to reach the lich king's lair and relieve him of his treasure, you were suprised to find the lair empty and the tomb stripped. Returning to town, you find answers to your questions in the form of the Linear Guild, recently returned from their victory (two days before you got there) over the lich king, spending their gold freely.

2. "Yes, after 6 encounters spread over 6 days, you finally rescue the princess. She was tortured for amusement by the orc army, surprising many by lasting for 4 days, and has been dead for two. Later that day, the King's messenger finds you and tells you that King has issued summons for you..."

3. "Well, you defeated the patrol and went into your rope trick to recoup. In that time, the trailing member of the patrol (which you never saw, but they saw you!) has reported back to the BBEG, and the entirety of the fortress is alert, together, and camped outside your rope trick. There is an huge pile of wood that smells strongly of gasoline immediately underneath you, and 5 men standing by with lit torches. They are calling out to ask for your surrender."

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-29, 11:22 AM
"I teleported to the liches lair and beat him and left."

"I telported to the princess and rescued her 10 minitues after the king paid me teh gold"

"I cast plane shift to travel to the prime material. I'm anywhere from 1 to 500 miles away from that rope trick."

Sutremaine
2007-03-29, 11:22 AM
You may make also use of the balance of the core system by simply prohibiting caster classes to progress fully and force them into multi-classing (i.e. for every full caster level, you need to take a non-casting pc or npc class. Say, a wizard player wanting to remain a skinny scholar could eventually become a wizard 10th level/10th level expert, while a bard player rises up to be come a 10th level bard/4th level fighter/6th level rogue.

That would play havoc with the Bard's main class feature.

Another Forcecage suggestion: make it require a target.

iceman
2007-03-29, 11:56 AM
1) Celerity, on your next round (following the casting of celerity) you are dazed and not able to take any actions. This basically means that you traded your next rounds action to do something before your round came up. (Thus trading a round for a round that goes sooner)

2) Timestop, is mainly a defensive spell in nature. Barring the use of several delayed blast fireballs or a forcecage (which if used to entrap something should be considered as targeting, thereby making the spell fail during a timestop.

3) Polymorph, in agreement here although I would suggest dropping the extrodinary attacks ability of the spell and only allowing the ability score changes (str, dex, con). And unless you have the natural spell feat you should not be able to cast spells while polymorphed unless polymorphed into some other kind of humanoid.

4) Fly, needed for defeating flying monsters. If the spellcaster is at the level needed to cast fly then the fightrer should have enough money to buy a poition of fly (300gp I believe)

5) Contingency, needs very specific directions, only allows defensive spells, and can only add that spell level cannot be higher than 1/3 of your caster level to a maximum of a sixth level spell

6) Forcecage, agreed. It is too powerful and should probably allow a reflex save to negate.

7) Teleport, depends. I personally don't like having to go through random encounters to get back to town. As for teleporting into a dungeon. Unless you have scryed the place or been there before you cannot teleport there. Teleport also has a failure chance even if you are very familiar with where you are going.

8) Mordenkainen's Disjunction, worst spell in the game. Get rid of it.

9) Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion (MMM?), umm... and the problem with this spell is?

10) If you don't like how metamagic rods are used to beef 7th thru 9th level spells (maximized timestop) then get rid of the item not the spell

ravenkith
2007-03-29, 11:59 AM
If you look at the PHB, the original game, it was pretty clear that each class was designed to have a certain 'power curve': their level of power relative to the other classes over all 20 levels.

Remember, originally PRCs were limited to those in the DMG, and there were no alternate base classes, and epic level was a holdover from 3.0, mostly.

Initially, all classes had a power curve designed to fit into the basic premise of a fantasy game world.

Imagine that there are ten levels of power, and 20 character levels, then realize that the game was designed according to plan.

Examples:

Fighter:
I don't think anyone will argue against fighters being a great choice at low levels. With their multiple bonus feats allowing access to all sorts of reuseable tricks that just aren't available to the other classes, their large hit die, and the ability to wear heavy armor without impeding any of their class features, Fighter is the power class up until level four.

With only one good save, and a limited pool of feats to draw from, however, the fighter's relative power drops over time, quite sharply after level 4.

Suggested Power Curve:

Class Level:Relative Power Level
1:10
2:10
3:10
4:10
5:9
6:9
7:9
8:8
9:8
10:7
11:7
12:6
13:5
14:4
15:3
16:2
17:1
18:1
19:1
20:1


Wizards, on the other hand, are almost the exact opposite of the fighter, beginning their career with the lowest relative power ranking, but eventually becoming the most powerful of the characters overall.

Their slow start springs primarily from the small amount of spells they can know, and the limited power level of said spells, combined with the incredibly limited number of times per day that they can use them.

Eventually, they can learn any spell they want, have a respectable amount of times in a day that they can cast spells at each level, and the spells themselves increase in power.

Suggested Wizard Power Curve:

Class level: Power Level
1:1
2:1
3:1
4:1
5:3
6:3
7:3
8:3
9:5
10:5
11:5
12:7
13:7
14:7
15:9
16:9
17:9
18:10
19:10
20:10


As you can see, while at 20th level the two classes are completely imbalanced, over the course of a 20-level career, the classes are, in fact, very balanced.

This idea works on all character classes. Another example:

Rogue:
The rogues major traits are his heinous amount of skill points and his ability to deal extra damage via sneak dice. At low levels, his low HP keeps him from being as nasty as the fighter, but his ability to reuse his sneak dice as many times as he likes helps compensate, putting him at a lowto mid power level to start.

In the mid levels, rogues, with their massive skills really stacking up, and making every task easy, along with their ability to use magic device now coming into serious play, as well as a decent amount of extra damage from sneak dice, reach the peak of thei power.

In the end game, where a lot of equal cr monsters will simply be immune to sneak damage, and the massive amounts of skill points begin to become a case of diminishing returns, the rogue starts to lose power, becoming once again, a low-to mid (mainly due to massive effectiveness vs those critters than can be sneaked at this level).

Suggested Rogue Power Curve:

1:4
2:4
3:4
4:6
5:6
6:6
7:8
8:8
9:8
10:10
11:10
12:10
13:10
14:8
15:8
16:8
17:6
18:6
19:4
20:4


It is my contention that each class can be statted out like this, and when put up next to each other, these power curves will show that each class has a 'height of power', where they are either the most powerful class, or share that honor with another class, or, they maintain a middle of the road, never becoming extremely powerful, but never being extremely weak, either.

Think about it.

Realize that what you are talking about is not merely a nerfing of the casters, but essentially a completely different game, built on diffeerent premises.

In D&D, a little magic is nice, but isn't world changing. A lot of magic, and you can move mountains if you need to.

If you don't like that, you need to play something else.

Like Iron Heroes, or d20 modern, or mutants & masterminds, depending on what you are trying to achieve - low magic, no magic, or an even playing field no matter what the players create, or at what level you play.

Tola
2007-03-29, 01:02 PM
Hmm. Thought: are these changes PC-Only, or would it affect EVERYTHING?

It'd be nice for a fighter to kill a dragon. Currently it's impossible.

iceman
2007-03-29, 01:06 PM
To continue on my post above (these being the original points fax celestis brought up, that I missed)

11) Clerics, I'm not aware of the cloistered cleric class nor what it does exactly. However, the cleric is ther easiest of the pc classes for the dm to control. It is the cleric's God (meaning the DM) that decides whether or not to grant the spells that the cleric asks for. Therefore, if it is not in the cleric's or God's (personality?)(couldn't think of a good word here) then that particular spell should be somewhat restricted. But, if the cleric is a warlike, battle wading, type then spells like divine power should be the norm, and other spells should be restricted.

As for persistent metamagic, anything related to druids, or divine metamagic I will not express any opinion on because I have had no experience with any and therefore can not express a qualified opinion.

marjan
2007-03-29, 01:21 PM
Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric). Basicaly less combat oriented Cleric.

elliott20
2007-03-29, 03:29 PM
ravenkith, the problem is that the wizard's power curve is not nearly as balanced as you've made it. sure, in the first 3 levels, casters have to be careful.

but once they hit level 5-7 they start to equal to the fighter and by level 10 they've all but made fighter's useless.

Morty
2007-03-29, 03:48 PM
but once they hit level 5-7 they start to equal to the fighter and by level 10 they've all but made fighter's useless.

I don't really think they make fighter useless on level 10. More powerful, sure, but fighter is still useful and contributing, just much less than wizard. Later, things get much worse.

ravenkith
2007-03-29, 04:21 PM
ravenkith, the problem is that the wizard's power curve is not nearly as balanced as you've made it. sure, in the first 3 levels, casters have to be careful.

but once they hit level 5-7 they start to equal to the fighter and by level 10 they've all but made fighter's useless.

If you throw 3-4 encounters at a party a day (as you're supposed to, IIRC), the power curve remains true: the wizard, at lower levels, while deadly in the first, and maybe even the second encounter, simply can't keep that level of performance up for the third and/or fourth.

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-29, 07:08 PM
I don't really think they make fighter useless on level 10. More powerful, sure, but fighter is still useful and contributing, just much less than wizard. Later, things get much worse.

You're right, the cutoff point is at least 15, but things can get really noticable at level 10, so poeple often quote it as the cutoff point.

And a wizard has enough spells to get through 3-4 encounters per day if he doesn't go nova. Using 1 top tier and 2-3 lower tier spells usually wraps up an encounter, at least in terms of spell usage, and that is being some what extravagent.

Orzel
2007-03-29, 07:38 PM
You're right, the cutoff point is at least 15, but things can get really noticable at level 10, so poeple often quote it as the cutoff point.

And a wizard has enough spells to get through 3-4 encounters per day if he doesn't go nova. Using 1 top tier and 2-3 lower tier spells usually wraps up an encounter, at least in terms of spell usage, and that is being some what extravagent.

A caster typically has 3-5 of his 2nd highest spell slots due to high stats, specilization, and class features. Each of of those can usually take out 1 ~equal HD enemy or 2-4 much lower dudes. It's really up to the DM to read a caster's chosen spells and adjust the next encounter to what spells the casters have left. That's the trick. They can't fit everything in their list (most of the time).

One DM made an hourly spell level limit on casters. It was twice your caster level per hour. Buffs constantly added to the limit. Slowed our jerkish player and his annoying wizard a bit.

Matthew
2007-03-29, 09:08 PM
Replace Cleric with Cloistered Cleric? Nah. I like Martial Clerics. Supplement them, sure, but replace them? No.

Latronis
2007-03-30, 01:09 AM
Contingency is fine, and i like it much

Its Craft Contingency that causes the troubles get rid of that and leave contingency as is IMO

Thoughtbot360
2007-03-30, 06:43 PM
Now, doing this is a bit tricky, since then you quickly get into balance issues by deviating from a rather balanced (core) game. If you, for instance, simply use "magic poor" campaign and limit npc casters as well as halve the magic equipment, you actually make pc spellcasters much stronger than before.


- Giacomo

Indeed. Its funny. Mages have spells that emulate skills and attack bonuses (Knock, Greater Magic weapon, and Divine power), and non-casters get magic weapons and armor that emulate various buffs and may even have a few charged items so that they can spell cast! :smallannoyed:

The casters have skills and the noncasters have spells! What the crap?

I mean, why would a 5th level wizard (the type of wizard that only comes about once in a generation of wizards, and all higher are mythic characters, or so says the alexandrian (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html)) buy a craft magical weapons and armor feat and pour all those resources into the creation of a +1 longsword-no! a +1 greataxe! (the greataxe is not only outside of the wizard's standard weapons, but also lacks the longsword's common use. Really, how many barbarians can afford a +1 weapon at any one time?) just to sell it in the item shop? I mean, they are selling their experience, here! Don't give me the "you're confusing game mechanics with the needs of the story" argument, either. One of the ways classes are balanced is to seperate fighting capacity and skill-monkeying from magic for instance:

Fighter/Barbarain: No magic, a lot of fighting with Rage/Feats boosting them
Rogue: Skills, moderate fighting amp'd by sneak attack
Paladin/Ranger: Fighting skills and very little magic (they skip 0th lvl entirely)
Bard: a little less skill than rogue, limited fighting (still better than wizard), a good selection of non-explosive magic, but only 6 levels of magic.
Wizard/Sorcerer: utterly crappy fighting and survivability, skills not so good, but master of magic.

So why are skills and sword fighting allowed to be so inter-changable with magic? :smallannoyed:

belboz
2007-03-30, 07:01 PM
The problem with power curves, even if they ended up balancing out, is that they don't really lead to a balanced game. They lead to an unbalanced game that simply changes the way in which it's unbalanced over time.

"Don't complain, Stabby McFighter. Sure, you've been basically a tagalong the last six months of this campaign, but Batman McWizard was basically a tagalong for the first six months, right?"

Basically, at any given time, someone's not getting to make a contribution to the party, and so isn't having much fun. That the "no-fun" seat rotates isn't much help; everyone should always get to have fun. Classes need to be balanced at each level, not just over their lifespans.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-03-30, 11:42 PM
The power curve by level described on the calibration site applies to the real world, not D&D. While a 6th-level character is outside of our (real-world) experience, they're not uncommon in D&D, nor are they expected to be. The DMG has a system where a town of more than 2,000 people is fully expected to have a level 8 wizard in it. The power curve of a typical D&D world resembles that of the X-Men's world more than the real world, except even more exaggerated; a city of 30,000 people is fully expected to have a couple 15th-level archmagi in it (page 139).

The once-in-a-lifetime types are those that hit Epic level.

Also, I have to agree that class power curves don't work, for the same reason. They need to be balanced at every level. Also, you have the curve wrong; prime casters have exponential power growth, while non-casters have linear growth, and casters can be notably ahead at 7th level, so the intersection point is probably around 5th or 6th.

Besides, with the Rebuild rules, assuming that they are reasonably accessible (i.e. on request of the players, even if just once per campaign), you can jump the curve entirely by having a Fighter until, say, level 7, then doing a rebuild quest and becoming a Sorcerer (or Cleric). This might look like a case where the Stormwind Fallacy might not be so fallacious, but consider the following case: A warrior over the course of his travels, has a revelation and decides to retreat to a mountaintop to contemplate it. He comes down from it having forsworn the sword forever, but shrouded in a divine blessing, or surging with inner strength.

Thoughtbot360
2007-03-31, 12:50 AM
The problem with power curves, even if they ended up balancing out, is that they don't really lead to a balanced game. They lead to an unbalanced game that simply changes the way in which it's unbalanced over time.

"Don't complain, Stabby McFighter. Sure, you've been basically a tagalong the last six months of this campaign, but Batman McWizard was basically a tagalong for the first six months, right?"

Basically, at any given time, someone's not getting to make a contribution to the party, and so isn't having much fun. That the "no-fun" seat rotates isn't much help; everyone should always get to have fun. Classes need to be balanced at each level, not just over their lifespans.


Amen, brother! Thats how I see it too.

Hypothetically, there ought to be a level (supposedly the highest level, which represents someone who was totally loyal to the way of the rogue/knight/mage/whatever all his career and has reached the pennacle that all purist fighters or whatever hope to achieve. He has fullfilled some goal, reached some kind of mastery that is idealized by ever fighter that didn't just dip into fighter for some free feats, but is a true fanatic. And that mastery may even be rumored to be impossible.) where nobody gets "the **** stick" The wizard and sorcerer, in my opinion, get it really bad at low levels simply by having to decide "do I want to suck now, when the really really hard to kill ogres/constructs are mauling us right at the entrance of the dungeon or do I want to suck later when we are fighting some easily pick-offable 1/2 HD gobliins that might be hiding behind some cover or high ground with javelins, or do I want to save it all for fighting the BBEG and suck until I *think* we are fighting the last monster in the dungeon?" No wonder so many wizards out there buy wands as soon as they can so they can out-magic missile the sorcerer.:smallamused:

Reinboom
2007-03-31, 01:13 AM
Wizard gets scale-ably better while the fighter's progression stays much the same--
You could try going both routes, size down the wizard's later levels and size up the fighter's later levels.
Remove the basic overpoweredness (disjunction, cage), then give fighters something to make them more fun to play straight that is still fighteresque.
This would involve editing the fighter and would probably turn into a homebrew design that nobody will consider anyways. hmmn.

Swordguy
2007-03-31, 04:52 AM
When you go up a level, and choose your 2 spells to know, you have to have in-game access to those spells. You don't get to go through the various rulebooks and pick out all the broken spells. You have to have a spellbook with it, or a scroll, or something that you can learn it from. You learn it automatically, and add it to your spellbook automatically, but you can't choose a spell you have no IG access to.

EDIT: Gah, forgot the conclusion: Using this means that the PC can only employ spells I choose to let him/her/it have. No saying "of course I'll only take balanced spells." and then taking Time Stop, Polymorph, PAO, MMM, etc behnd the DM's back with their auto-spells.

Morty
2007-03-31, 05:16 AM
When you go up a level, and choose your 2 spells to know, you have to have in-game access to those spells. You don't get to go through the various rulebooks and pick out all the broken spells. You have to have a spellbook with it, or a scroll, or something that you can learn it from. You learn it automatically, and add it to your spellbook automatically, but you can't choose a spell you have no IG access to.

I'd simplify that: you do not choose spells when you go up a level, you have to learn them from scrolls. That may require reducing spell copying costs, though.


EDIT: Gah, forgot the conclusion: Using this means that the PC can only employ spells I choose to let him/her/it have. No saying "of course I'll only take balanced spells." and then taking Time Stop, Polymorph, PAO, MMM, etc behnd the DM's back with their auto-spells.

It's better to just ban overpowered spells than to decide which ones player can choose. Especially if he's disallowed to choose spells when he gets up a level.

Whamme
2007-03-31, 07:06 AM
Yes but that still doesn't solve the problem if used with Time Stop. Unless you also ban Time Stop.


This could work just fine, but being able to smash force effect doesn't make much sense.

Actually, if you make ForceCage an /attack/ you inherently make time stop unable to ram it down their throats. Boom. You just blew a 7th AND 9th level spell slot to do nothing against a good reflex save.

Edit: Incidently, I favour giving the fighter mega-ultra-steroids.

Make them get +80 to all skill checks for every 3 non-caster levels (so they gain equivalent mobility), give them a similiar bonus to spell resistance, strength, constitution, and hell, dexterity and saving throws, allow them to add 10x their level in damage to all ranged attacks, allow them to reroll all saving throws until they roll a 20 or they've rolled a number of times equal to their level, and give them an attack of opportunity whenever a wizard casts a spell anywhere on the planet...

Did I go overboard? Cool. Pare it down to the point of equality.


Oooh, I know! Give non-casting classes a class feature that gives them 'free' magic items at every level equal to 3x the normal WBL for their level, and they get topped back up whenever they level up for expendables used.

Reinboom
2007-03-31, 08:45 AM
When you go up a level, and choose your 2 spells to know, you have to have in-game access to those spells. You don't get to go through the various rulebooks and pick out all the broken spells. You have to have a spellbook with it, or a scroll, or something that you can learn it from. You learn it automatically, and add it to your spellbook automatically, but you can't choose a spell you have no IG access to.

EDIT: Gah, forgot the conclusion: Using this means that the PC can only employ spells I choose to let him/her/it have. No saying "of course I'll only take balanced spells." and then taking Time Stop, Polymorph, PAO, MMM, etc behnd the DM's back with their auto-spells.

And what of Sorcerer's?

Swordguy
2007-03-31, 12:26 PM
And what of Sorcerer's?

What about Sorcerers?

Seriously, I've never had a PC run a sorcerer-type in 3.0 on. That helps my homebrew a lot. Still, I'd make some sort of similar ruling that they have to learn the spell from somebody or something IG. If they want a spell o doom, they've gotta go get it. No roll happens, but they have to have a reason to have it (rather than the information magically appearing in thier head).

Mike_G
2007-03-31, 12:41 PM
And that is the problem.

Because spells rapidly obsolete skills, it makes the skills less important. As you gain levels, a wand with charges of knock becomes trivial in cost (a skelliton key), and it makes high levels of the unlock skill pretty damn niche'd.

Ie: Knock should grant a skill of (10+caster level/2), not a bonus to the skill, with some text about being able to open stuck/rusted doors as well.

For skillmonkeys to compete with spellcasters in the utility department, their skills need to reach or exceed spells in power. This requires toning down the spells that make skills obsolete, together with making skills more impressive at high skill levels.

But spells don't make skills obsolete.

We recently had a session where we searched a warehouse, and had to open like 20 locks, between doors, chests, secret doors etc, plus search the whole place for traps. Now, my Rogue just had to roll a lot of dice. The Wizard would have had to dedicate most of her spells to Knock and Detect Traps. That's a really stupid use of resources, considering that skill uses are totally free.

Not every adventure requires so many uses of these skills, but keeping Knock as a backup, and using the free, unlimited skill rolls to do the lions share of the work is just smart. My Beguiler has used knock, but only after attempting the skill check. Spell slots are so useful and precious that squandering them to do the Rogue's job is poor tactics.

barawn
2007-03-31, 01:39 PM
But spells don't make skills obsolete.

Spells make putting additional ranks into skills obsolete. At least, the autowin spells do. No DM's going to have a DC 50 lock, not when it can go "poof" by a dirt-cheap spell.


The Wizard would have had to dedicate most of her spells to Knock and Detect Traps. That's a really stupid use of resources, considering that skill uses are totally free.

Well, a wand of Knock is pretty cheap.

Really, though, those spells should just be fixed with the "No Autowin" variant rules: instead of "the lock opens" it's "you get the use of Open Locks, and +20 on your roll" (or +10+1/2 caster level or something).

Oh, also: regarding Assay Spell Resistance:

The main problem with it is that it has no counter (other than being countered directly). If there was a spell, or effect, like Chaotic Spell Resistance or something, which, when Assay Spell Resistance was cast upon someone with that ability, the bonus turned into a negative, that'd be an effective counterpart to that spell. It'd make spellcasters a lot more patient about simply casting ASR, that's for sure.

Mike_G
2007-03-31, 02:07 PM
Spells make putting additional ranks into skills obsolete. At least, the autowin spells do. No DM's going to have a DC 50 lock, not when it can go "poof" by a dirt-cheap spell.


I see your point with the high DC being irrelevant to the spell, but I think "obsolete" is overstating the case. I've never seen a caster who'd rather clog up spell slots or burn wands than have the Rogue do his thing.






Well, a wand of Knock is pretty cheap.


So are skill points for a Rogue. 8 per level, +1 if you're human, + Int bouns, which any decent Rogue is going to have. 10-12 skill points per level is reasonable, and keeping Open Locks maxed, or close to it isn't hard



Really, though, those spells should just be fixed with the "No Autowin" variant rules: instead of "the lock opens" it's "you get the use of Open Locks, and +20 on your roll" (or +10+1/2 caster level or something).


I like this in general. I like eliminating the autowin, but I still say that in practice, any party is much better off with letting the skillmonkey do skillmonkey stuff, and saving the caster to do the buff/debuff/save or be screwed stuff.

Morty
2007-03-31, 02:36 PM
What about Sorcerers?

Seriously, I've never had a PC run a sorcerer-type in 3.0 on. That helps my homebrew a lot. Still, I'd make some sort of similar ruling that they have to learn the spell from somebody or something IG. If they want a spell o doom, they've gotta go get it. No roll happens, but they have to have a reason to have it (rather than the information magically appearing in thier head).

Or just don't use sorcerers. There. Problem solved. They're just weaker cousins of wizards anyway, and their flavor is some incoherent babbling about 'draconic' or 'outsderish' ancestry.

Swordguy
2007-03-31, 02:42 PM
Or just don't use sorcerers. There. Problem solved. They're just weaker cousins of wizards anyway, and their flavor is some incoherent babbling about 'draconic' or 'outsderish' ancestry.

Yeah, that's pretty much my thoughts on the class as well.

Indon
2007-03-31, 02:59 PM
I'd simplify that: you do not choose spells when you go up a level, you have to learn them from scrolls. That may require reducing spell copying costs, though.

Or just make the criteria for learning a spell sufficient exposure. Spellcasters have Spellcraft for a reason as a class skill.



It's better to just ban overpowered spells than to decide which ones player can choose. Especially if he's disallowed to choose spells when he gets up a level.

They're functionally identical, except that by not using rather than banning spells, you have the option to introduce them later if you want.

I'm a firm believer that magic should be powerful, but it should be earned. High-level and/or high-power spells should be the thing of ancient tomes in ancient tombs and well-guarded Wizards' guilds, and neither should be easy to get to.

Fizban
2007-03-31, 03:02 PM
On spell resistance: I've never really liked the idea of ASR either. There's a 1st level spell in some book that grants a +10 on your next check to beat SR, swift action to cast. There's also a spell in dragon magic with the ability to augment it by sacrificing slots, negating the enemy's SR for 1 round/level of slot sac'd. I'd also get rid of SR for direct damage spells, but that's not the problem here.

On wizards learning new spells: Anyone here read Complete Psionic? It's a horrible book, but the one thing I liked was the Erudite, a Psion with unlimited spell learning ability. It had a limit on how many specific spells it could cast per day (so it effectively had to make a new spells known list each day), and had to spend xp to learn new powers besides the usual 2 per level. I propose we do the same for wizards. Instead of charging 100gp/level of spell to write it down, charge 20xp/level of spell when you first want to learn it. Then get rid of the cost to write them down, cause it's stupid anyway.

On the flavor of sorcerers. I challenge your "incoherent babbling" with "sorcerers were first". Consider how many creatures have supernatural abilities, spell like abilities, and even natural sorcerer casting. The sorcerer doesn't have to be descended from them, it's just the natural way that magic comes into the world. Wizards are the hacks that saw sorcerers and dragons and outsiders using magic, and decided to try and copy them.

Morty
2007-03-31, 03:24 PM
On the flavor of sorcerers. I challenge your "incoherent babbling" with "sorcerers were first". Consider how many creatures have supernatural abilities, spell like abilities, and even natural sorcerer casting. The sorcerer doesn't have to be descended from them, it's just the natural way that magic comes into the world. Wizards are the hacks that saw sorcerers and dragons and outsiders using magic, and decided to try and copy them.

First or not, facts are that sorcerers are weaker wizards with flavor that I don't like. Supernatural abilities and inherent talent aren't something you can put into base class. And who said that sorcerers were first anyway? If I was ever going to play sorcerer, or run a game with sorcerer in it, I'd change their flavor and possibly mechanics. I'd make sorcery just a different method of using arcane magic, based on talent and intuition- bassicaly what we have now in PHB description, but without rubbish about dragons and outsiders.
And besides, what's the whole thing about dragon ancestry of sorcerers? In PHB description it's mentioned that they may have some dragon or outsider ancestry, but nothing ceratin.

Yakk
2007-03-31, 09:33 PM
But spells don't make skills obsolete.

We recently had a session where we searched a warehouse, and had to open like 20 locks, between doors, chests, secret doors etc, plus search the whole place for traps. Now, my Rogue just had to roll a lot of dice. The Wizard would have had to dedicate most of her spells to Knock and Detect Traps. That's a really stupid use of resources, considering that skill uses are totally free.

Not every adventure requires so many uses of these skills, but keeping Knock as a backup, and using the free, unlimited skill rolls to do the lions share of the work is just smart. My Beguiler has used knock, but only after attempting the skill check. Spell slots are so useful and precious that squandering them to do the Rogue's job is poor tactics.

You keep a wand of knock/detect traps as a backup, and maybe memorize one copy.

A 50 charge wand of knock is 4500 gp, or 90 gp per charge.

So at low levels, that gets expensive -- but that is 90 gp for a cast of a spell that grants an infinite open locks skill, allows opening at range, and takes 1 standard action to use, you replaced an entire core class skill of the rogue.

As a bonus, anyone who is serious about locking something will hire a wizard to cast arcane lock on it: 2nd level spell that makes it immune to the rogue, but that cheap wand blasts right through it.

Yes, there are situations where a rogue is more efficient: but you basically have to be writing the adventure in an attempt to make the rogue more efficient.

Mike_G
2007-03-31, 09:39 PM
You keep a wand of knock/detect traps as a backup, and maybe memorize one copy.

A 50 charge wand of knock is 4500 gp, or 90 gp per charge.

So at low levels, that gets expensive -- but that is 90 gp for a cast of a spell that grants an infinite open locks skill, allows opening at range, and takes 1 standard action to use, you replaced an entire core class skill of the rogue.

As a bonus, anyone who is serious about locking something will hire a wizard to cast arcane lock on it: 2nd level spell that makes it immune to the rogue, but that cheap wand blasts right through it.

Yes, there are situations where a rogue is more efficient: but you basically have to be writing the adventure in an attempt to make the rogue more efficient.

I still say 4500 gp can buy a pretty good item besides a wand that you'll use up very quickly if the skillmonkey stops botehring with Open Locks. Maybe in a cave or the wilderness stuff isn't locked, but in an urban adventuire, everything is locked.

Having the spell memorized or an item fro use in the case of arcane lock is a good idea, but using Knock to replace the Rogue skill is like using Shocking Grasp or Magic Missile to replace the Fighter's melee ability.

Cthulhu
2007-03-31, 10:27 PM
To fix casters, you need to move away from the "wizard" in the books and move closer to something like the below, with a limited range of predictable scaling abilities, that still feels like a wizard. This concept is easily interchanged for any sort of elementalist, so you'd need to do some thinking to come up with things like necromancers.

Lifted from Frank Trollman at http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewforum?forum=1




First, the relevant class:


Okay, here's the deal: I think that magic in D&D is too powerful. Not just that magic *users* are too powerful, but magic itself.

That's understandable. Magic in D&D is about as powerful as in any game. Characters in Shadowrun, or World of Darkness, or even Champions pale in comparison to what even a mid-level Magician can do in D&amp;amp;D.

But that's because a character in D&D is supposed to be very powerful. The standard Orc Warrior is supposed to pose no meaningful threat to an 8th level character. Seriously, a character is supposed to be able to chop their way through essentially limitless armies of armed low-morale humanoids before they hit 10th level. And the game is supposed to go to 20th - where characters are supposed to be able to wade through essentially limitless armies of the guys who could wade through essentially limitless armies of normals.

---

Really, if you want to play D&D and you don't want a crazy power curve, you'r essentially stuck playing at levels 1-6. After that, things are supposed to go over-he-top bat **** crazy.


So I want a magical class that is less game-breaking (in terms of effects like teleport, fabricate, and wish) while still being good at fighting monsters. And one that a new player can quickly learn.That's a really tall order. The spell list in the Player's handbook is 107 pages long, and more space is devoted to spells in new supplements than any other aspect of the game. Just being a spell caster essentially is an intractable problem for any new player.

As I see it, you're really looking at the following list of real design criteria:
Character must "feel like" a Wizard in the sense that if you saw him doing his stuff in a movie you'd describe him as a Wizard.
Character must be able to take on opponents of his level drawn from Team Monster in a reasonable manner.
Character must be able to be explained to a new player in a reasonable amount of time even starting at a high level.
Character should have a defined battlefield role.
Character should be able to exist at high level simultaneously with the 6th-level Knight centered feudalism that a lot of people think exists in D&D.
Character should be forced to play with the wealth-by-level system.
The last two demands I don't think are practical. However, just off the top of my head, let's make a character that can sort of do that at least for a while:

Fire Mage
"Yes, fire is cool."

A Fire Mage is someone who burns their own soul out to burn the bodies of others. Tactically, they shine against groups of enemies, because fires spread across the battlefield like a plague.

Alignment: Fire is a destructive force, and a lot of Fire Mages are Chaotic. But they don't have to be.

Races: Fire Mages appear in all races, though significant portions of many races live in areas where being a Fire Mage is illegal.

Starting Gold: 6d6x10 gp (210 gold)

Starting Age: As Rogue.

Hit Die: d8
Class Skills: The Fire Mage's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Concentration (Con), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (-), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Use Rope (Dex).

Skills/Level: 4 + Intelligence Bonus
BAB: Medium (as Cleric), Saves: Fort: Good; Reflex: Good; Will: Good

Level, Benefit
1 Fire Resistance, Fire Burst, Fire Bolts, Impress Flames, Fire Magic
2 Ignite
3 Piercing Flames, Hand of Fire
4 Fire Immunity, Smokeless Flame
5 Fireballs
6 Mindfire
7 Visions of Flame
8 Soul of Cinders
9 Sculpt Flames
10 Conflagration
11 Beacon, Firewalk
12 Bonds of Fire
13 Fire Clouds
14 Searing Light, Ray of Light
15 Sending, Rain of Fire

All of the following are Class Features of the Fire Mage class:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Fire Mages are proficient with all simple weapons, as well as the whip, all martial axes, and all sizes and varieties of scimitar (including falchions). Fire Mages are proficient with light armor but not with shields of any kind.

Fire Resistance (Ex): A Fire Mage has a Resistance to Fire equal to twice his level.

Fire Burst (Sp): As a standard action, a Fire Mage can emit a burst of flame from his body, striking all creatures and objects within 10' of his position except himself. This burst of flames inflicts 1d6 of fire damage, with an allowed Reflex Save for half (DC 10 + ˝ Level + Charisma Modifier).

Fire Bolts (Sp): A Fire Mage can throw bolts of fire as an attack action. A Fire Bolt tavels out to short range, and inflicts 1d6 of Fire damage per level. A Fire Bolt strikes its target with a ranged touch attack.

Impress Flames (Ex): Every time a Fire Mage inflicts Fire damage on any target, whether with his class abilities or another source of fire, he inflicts an amount of extra Fire Damage equal to his class level or his Charisma modifier, whichever is less.

Fire Magic (Ex): A Fire Mage is considered to have every spell with the Fire Descriptor on his spell list for the purpose of activating magic items.

Ignite (Sp): As a standard action, a 2nd level Fire Mage can cause any creature or object to burst into flame. A creature on fire suffers 1d6 of Fire damage per round (the Mage's Impress Flames ability applies to each round of course), and the creature can attempt to put itself out with a DC 15 Reflex save (see the DMG, p. 303). This ability can be used out to Medium range, and it always hits.

Piercing Flames (Ex): From 3rd level on, a Fire Mage's Fire cuts through Fire Resistance, hardness, and Immunity. No more than ˝ of the damage inflicted by his fire damage can be negated by hardness or immunity or resistance to Fire. In addition, the Fire Mage ignores the first 5 points of Fire Resistance that a target has.

Hand of Fire (Su): A 3rd level Fire Mage can set fire to their own body, causing them to count as armed at all times, even with unarmed attacks. The Fire Mage also causes an extra 1d6 of Fire damage with all melee attacks.

Fire Immunity (Ex): A 4th level Fire Mage is immune to Fire.

Smokeless Flame (Sp): A 4th level Fire Mage can create fires that produce no heat and do not burn. These fires can be anything from the size of a torch to a bonfire, and produce light accordingly. Each lasts until the next time the sun rises. Smokeless Flame can be created anywhere within Medium range.

Fireballs (Sp): A 5th level Fire Mage can hurl explosive fire anywhere within Long Range as a Full Round Action. This Fire explodes into a 20' radius burst and inflicts 1d6 of Fire Damage per level. All creatures within the area are entitled to a Reflex save to halve damage (DC 10 + ˝ Level + Charisma Modifier).

Mindfire (Sp): A 6th level Fire Mage can start a Fire in a creature's mind, duplicating the effects of rage or confusion for a number of minutes equal to his Level. The victim must be within Medium Range, and is entitled to a Will Save to negate this effect (DC 10 + ˝ Level + Charisma Modifier). This is a Mind influencing Compulsion effect.

Visions of Flame (Sp): A 7th level Fire Mage can contact other plane to communicate with the denizens of the Elemental Plane of Fire. A Fire Mage is in no danger of becoming insane or damaged by this experience.

Soul of Cinders (Sp): An 8th level Fire Mage has burnt his soul to ash, and is no longer susceptible to Energy Drain or Fear.

Sculpt Flames (Sp): A 9th level Fire Mage can create delicate shapes and walls made of fire. The Fire is fully shapeable, but cannot pass through more than 2 squares per level. Any creature passing through a square with fire in it suffers 1d6 of fire damage per level. A creature which is in a square that is being filled with fire is entitled to a Reflex Save (DC 10 + ˝ Level + Charisma Modifier) to move to the nearest non-flaming square as an immediate action. These fires persist for 1 round per level. Alternately, the Fire Mage can replicate a wall of fire which persists for 1 minute per level.

Conflagration (Sp): At 10th level, a Fire Mage can surround himself with a nimbus of flames that extends for 10' in all directions from his person. All other targets in this area suffer a d10 of Fire Damage per level, but are entitled to a Reflex Save (DC 10 + ˝ Level + Charisma Modifier). In addition, a Fire Mage can cast fireshield at will (Hot Shield only).

Beacon (Sp): An 11th level Fire Mage can create a magically permanent bonfire as a standard action. He always knows exactly where each Beacon he has created is and will know if it is put out by any means.

Firewalk (Sp): At 11th level a Fire Mae can walk into any fire large enough to fit his person and appear in any other fire that is likewise of sufficient size anywhere on any plane of existence. The Fire Mage must know where the target fire is. The Fire Mage can take any number of willing creatures or carried objects that are also able to fit in both flames.

Bonds of Fire (Sp): A 12th level Fire Mage can craft solid fire and entrap a victim in it. The bonds will immobilize a creature which fails a Reflex Save (DC 10 + ˝ Level + Charisma Modifier), and will entangle the creature unless it succeeds in its save by more than 5. A creature can attempt to escape by taking a Full round action to make a Strength or Escape Artist test with a DC equal to the Use Rope Skill Result of the Fire Mage. The victim suffers 20 points of Fire Damage per round, and the bonds of fire last until the victim escapes or the Fire Mage dismisses them.

Fire Clouds (Sp): As a Full Round Action, a 13th level Fire Mage can create huge billowing clouds of Fire. The Fire Clouds must be created within Long range, and persist for 3 rounds whether they are still in range or not. The cloud is shapeable, and covers at most 3 10' cubes per Level. Each round, everyone and everything inside the cloud suffers 1d6 of Fire damage per level, but is entitled to a Reflex save for half damage (DC 10 + ˝ Level + Charisma Modifier).

Searing Light (Sp): A 14th level Fire Mage can call levels of illumination that are painful and destructive as the unmitigated baleful glare of the sun itself. All darkness within 5 miles is dispelled, and everything is illuminated. All undead suffer a 10 points of damage per round. All creatures specifically vulnerable to light suffer 10 damage per round (thus, vampires suffer 20 damage per round). All creatures are dazzled. Creatures must pass a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ˝ Level + Charisma Modifier) every minute or become blind for the remainder of the effect. Creatures that are blinded when the effect ends are entitled to another Fort save to get their vision back, but if they fail this save the blinding is permanent. This effect lasts until the Fire Mage dismisses it or he is incapacitated.

Ray of Light (Sp): As an attack action, a 14th level Fire Mage can fire a ray of Light at any target within Short Range. It inflicts 1d6 of Light Damage per level if it hits with a Ranged Tuuch Attack. Undead take 10 extra damage. Creatures specifically vulnerable to Light suffer an additional 10 damage.

Sending (Sp): A 15th level Fire Mage can send a message, as the sending spell to any creature on any plane of existence with a standard action and receive a reply even if they are on different planes of existence.

Rain of Fire (Sp): At 15th level, the Fire Mage can open the skies and dump raw inferno upon all who would oppose him. The fires inflict 1d6 of Fire Damage per level, and victims are permitted a Reflex save (DC 10 + ˝ level + Charisma Modifier). The Fire Mage chooses which squares are struck with fire, and the only limits to how many squares can burn is how many squares the Fire Mage can see. There are no range limits to this power save line of sight.

---

That's a basic artillery piece character that should be fairly easy to explain tactically. And it has a couple of neat schticks, and a reason to exist at high level if you intend to fight the occasional army.

-Frank


The fire mage has to get a bit more complex to work in a higher level campaign. The first ability I'd suggest is Brass Pact. The guy is an artillerist, and Frank hasn't given him any fire-related summoning, so the purpose of this ability isn't to get a battlefield ally. It's to get three wishes.

marjan
2007-04-01, 04:29 AM
you replaced an entire core class skill of the rogue.


You know Fighter/Barbarian could replace that skill, too. Just bash the lock you want opened or break chest/door.

argentsaber
2007-04-01, 07:10 AM
Is anyone else considering how easy it would be to adapt martial maneuvers to replace spell casting? It's a far more balanced system, and scales well with sneak attack. The required skill for each "school of magic" would even give bards an edge in some ways (or at least encourage multiclassing - as would making casting level work like initiator level). Just my 2 CP

Variable Arcana
2007-04-01, 09:27 AM
M0rt, you can break 90% of the spells in the game.

About the only thing that doesn't break easily spell wise are direct damage spells (like fireball).

So just ban all non evocation spells and your fine. Everything else is very easily broken.
I'm very curious to see this.

Please describe in detail how to "break" any of the core (SRD) abjuration spells up to level 4. (without using celerity or time stop, i.e. using the spell itself, not something already proposed for banning above -- since your point was that banning those wasn't sufficient.)

Raum
2007-04-01, 12:50 PM
I suspect it depends on how you're defining "break". But spells such as Sleep, Ray of Enfeeblement, Alter Self, Glitterdust, Fog Cloud, Ray of Exhaustion, Fly, Stinking Cloud, Solid Fog, Confusion, Evervation, and Fear can easily change the course of an encounter.

Edit: On the subject of balancing casters, I think there are two possible solutions: 1) switch to a different game (True20 looks interesting and reasonably balanced) or 2) get rid of or nerf all full casters with access (direct or potential) to all spells on their list. In other words, replace the wizard with the sorcerer, the cleric with the favored soul, and nerf the druid.

You'll still need to remove some of the more powerful spells, but at least they won't have access to all spells for any situation.

Thoughtbot360
2007-04-02, 04:48 PM
Hey, what about Elements of Magic (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2699&) mages? Here's the main difference between a Mage (unique Spellcaster class that uses EOM rules) and a wizard is that the mage's spells, from level 1 are entirely unique and he can even create a spell on the fly (however, he is limited to a number of spell lists he has learned over his carrer like learning to Charm Animals or Evoke Fire and casting in this manner TAKES TWO FULL ROUNDS). The mage has a collection of signature spells equal to his caster level + his Intelligence modifier, and those spells represent a few specialized manifestations of magic the mage has memorized to the point where s/he can cast them with only a standard action, as opposed to TWO FULL ROUNDS (!). The Mage can switch these re-select these spells during downtime, but generally cannot on an adventure, and usually stick with a few favorites. When a Mage is in battle they mostly stick to their signature spells. This makes it easy for a DM to plan content for a mage since a 10th level mage with 16 (Intelligence isn't quite as vital to a mage as it is a wizard, it just improves the number of signature spells) would have 13 signature spells, 4 of which are cantips and/or 1 MP spells (unless he reworked them, but keeping a few low-mp spells is beneficial so you don't end up with mp burning a hole in your pocket and no spells you can afford, and some spells reach perfection at lower mp costs anyway).

But what makes Elements of Magic spells balanced, you ask? Well:

-There are no save or die spells (well there might
- Magic points (MP), if you were wondering have a maximum limit equal to your caster level, and mages (there are other classes, but mages get the most magic per level) get +1 caster level per class level.
-Spell resistance and Saves (Evoke spells can have swap reflex/fortitude saves for ranged touch attack) apply to everything. Everything. The DC is 10 + Cha modifier + 1/2 Mp cost of the spell. Some feats improve the DC of spells, but they are still limited.
-Deadly transformation (turning the air around someone into a lead block) or creation (summoning a pile of bolders over someone's head) are banned. Evocations are the primary method to do damage, but they are limited to doing 1d6 damage per MP, and they do not improve with caster level like D&D magic. While nobody is stuck with boring old magic missile in an EOM game, nobody gets 5d4 + 5 damage off with an inexpensive 1st-level spell.
-Permanent Spells are nearly unheard of. The Permanent duration enhancement cost 30 magic points! A non-epic mage is either going to have to buy the Craft Permanent Spell feat and spend xp on it like any other magic item or use the ritual magic rules from Lyceum Arcana (the sister book to EOM) to cast a proper Polymorph Other spell. And I don't think that the enemy is going to just sit around for hours or days at a time to let you do that to him....
-Speaking of Polymorphing, lets talk about some Save-or-Lose spells that still exist in EOM: Charm [Creature] allows you to Daze or affect the emotions of the target with the right [Creature] type. Compel [Creature] allows for Dominating a person, reading his/her mind, modifing the memory (Its not permanent! REPEAT IT IS NOT PERMANENT WITHOUT SPENDING 30 FREAKING MP!), or Telepathic communication (Compel might be a good spell list to consider banning if you're scared, or just allow for telepathic communication.) Hex Spells (Inversed Abjure spells) can bind a target to a location, so that might suck, but as bad as a strong Daze effect, which renders you helpless for the duration of the spell!

Transform is actually kind of tame in EOM. Seriously without permanent duration, if you get transformed into a toad, you just need to run away (or if you are a mage with the Natural spell feat yourself, you can transform yourself back into something that can fight back or teleport away-COMPLETELY OVERIDING THE SPELL WITHOUT SO MUCH AS A WILL SAVE! Of couse, if your spell ends before the enemy spell does, you are back to jumping on lily pads and giving people warts as soon as the battle/escape is over.)

In the main book, the maximum duration is one day (which costs 8 MP) and the errata of course includes permanent duration for 30 MP.

If you don't like the mage, use the Anima (a class that is basically a commoner with permanent spells cast on himself but he also has signature spells called activated powers, but he can only use each one 5 times per day. He's like a super hero-but really he is more like the sorcerer or favored soul to the mage's wizard or cleric.) from Lyceum Arcana.

In conclusion, EOM sorcery has less raw power than Vancian magic but has much more flexibility and has the added benefit of being a useful tool for creating various types of magic in and of itself. I'm not sure if its a perfect balance solution in and of itself, but hey- no save-or-dies and the mage player will still likely love it.

Edit: I just remembered that Elements of Magic: Revised edition has no wish spell. I don't really think anyone should be dissapointed.

The_Werebear
2007-04-02, 05:11 PM
I'm very curious to see this.

Please describe in detail how to "break" any of the core (SRD) abjuration spells up to level 4. (without using celerity or time stop, i.e. using the spell itself, not something already proposed for banning above -- since your point was that banning those wasn't sufficient.)

Lets see...

Well, it is pretty hard to totally break the lower level spells, as you don't get into the most horribles stuff until a bit higher, but I will see what I can do.

Alarm: It is now Impossible to sneak up on you. Literally. Anyone entering the warded area will trip it. This includes people trying to drop down on you as well. Pretty powerful.
Resist Energy: Cast this on your grappler build friend and light him on fire. Have him hug stuff. Not broken, but amusing to see someone able to wander around while doused in oil and lit.
Dispel Magic: Not broken per say, but a very powerful spell. Like Haste and Wind Wall, it can turn a difficult encounter into an easy one. Fighting a massively spell-enhanced foe? Strip him of all those nasty little buffs. Alternately, counterspell and lock down everything a spellcaster foe does while your meatshield friend pokes holes in him.
Protection from Evil/Magic Circle: Solid AC bonus, keeps summoned foes at bay, and breaks mind control. Again, this can turn the tide of battle when you are facing something that does Dominate or other such things.
Dimensional Anchor: Prevents foes from Teleporting away, allowing you to take all their items and actually kill them.

Again, these are not really broken, but only a few spells under fourth actually are (Alter Self/Polymorph).

Thoughtbot360
2007-04-02, 07:48 PM
Lets see...

Well, it is pretty hard to totally break the lower level spells, as you don't get into the most horribles stuff until a bit higher, but I will see what I can do.

Alarm: It is now Impossible to sneak up on you. Literally. Anyone entering the warded area will trip it. This includes people trying to drop down on you as well. Pretty powerful.
Resist Energy: Cast this on your grappler build friend and light him on fire. Have him hug stuff. Not broken, but amusing to see someone able to wander around while doused in oil and lit.
Dispel Magic: Not broken per say, but a very powerful spell. Like Haste and Wind Wall, it can turn a difficult encounter into an easy one. Fighting a massively spell-enhanced foe? Strip him of all those nasty little buffs. Alternately, counterspell and lock down everything a spellcaster foe does while your meatshield friend pokes holes in him.
Protection from Evil/Magic Circle: Solid AC bonus, keeps summoned foes at bay, and breaks mind control. Again, this can turn the tide of battle when you are facing something that does Dominate or other such things.
Dimensional Anchor: Prevents foes from Teleporting away, allowing you to take all their items and actually kill them.

Again, these are not really broken, but only a few spells under fourth actually are (Alter Self/Polymorph).

Hmm...I feel tempted to throw in my take these spells, and maybe needlessly advertise for EOM some more

*receives a paycheck from E.N. publishing*

Alarm: This is powerful, and not much can be said about how to debuff it. Its just a question of if the individual wizard is to paranoid enough to spend a spell slot/buy a wand for such a thing. All I can say is that if the campaign world requires such a survival mechanism, the DM can't really complain. And besides, thats one less true strike/Scroching ray combo. In EOM, this spell would cost 5 MP (more like a 2nd level spell) for a simple Create sound 1/ Gen 4 spell that has Contingency, long (contingencies cost 1 mp for 10 minutes, 2 mp for an hour, and 4 mp for a day.) This alarm will be as loud as a small crowd of shouting men, and you could buy a Create Sound 0 for a cheaper spell, but something that loud should wake up the heaviest sleepers and rouse the party to action. EOM cannot emulate a "mental" alarm.... at least, I don't think.:smallwink:

Resist Energy: Shouldn't the oil be protected from fire as well? I mean, thats the same problem that a rifleman/wizard (maybe from a Magepunk or Renaissance game) runs into when he casts protection from elements on his musket-He can't get off a spark to ignite the gun powder! Besides, even if the grappler doesn't burn, he still should be effectively blinded (and possibly suffocating). Anyways, you can emulate this with a simple Abjure Fire spell. To demonstrate my point however, here's an except about side effects (lighting something readily flamable, like oil is a cheap Evoke Fire effect, and Abjure [Element] protects against magical and non magical manifestation of its element type.


If you have at least energy resistance 1, you can
reduce elemental side effects from Evoke [Element] spells
by 1 MP. If this reduction brings the side effect to midway
between two levels of side effect, use the lower level. If
you have 5 points of energy resistance, reduce side effects
by 2 MP, reduce by 3 MP for energy resistance 10, by 4
MP for energy resistance 15, and so on.

I think the Vancian magic of D&D should work in the same way. I also would have the spell consider the oil as part of the grappler's "possesions" and "clothes" so its protected from fire as well!:smallbiggrin:

Dispel Magic: Not much to say about this one, only that in EOM, its not a 3rd level spell: Its a class skill. First level mages can dispel (or try to). Its kind of a scary thought.:smalleek:

Protection from Evil: One things always got my about this spell: AC AND SAVES BONUSES!? And outright immunity to mind-affecting spells? Its pretty hard to emulate this spell in EOM as it is in the core rules, but here's their version:


Protection from Evil
Abjure Evil 1/Gen 0
Total MP: 1
Range: Touch
Duration: One minute
Area: Creature touched
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
You protect a creature from the touch and corruption
of evil creatures. Evil creatures must succeed a Will
save or be hedged away from the affected creature. The
affected creature also gains a +2 resistance bonus to saving
throws against effects from evil sources. Costs: 1 MP
hedging and free cantrip effect.

Dimensional Anchor: Well I've never teleported in a game and never fought a foe that did (actually, I fought a blackguard in my first game that could, but I was a sorcerer and he drank a POTION of teleport. Even if I had the spell, I stood no chance of figuring it out and stopping the escape.)

Not a dimensional Anchor, but their is an anchor effect from the Move Death spell list. It forbids move actions of all types and also prevents spell penetration. The character cannot be moved with anybody's help either. If he has no ranged attacks, he's doomed. Its a 6 mp spell, however.

Polymorph is pretty bad, but I still muse how bad it could be if it wasn't permanent...

The_Werebear
2007-04-02, 08:59 PM
Well... I was just putting those up as Examples.. They aren't bad as far as spells go.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-02, 09:37 PM
Disabling the classes who prepare spells without having level based spells known would severely limit their power.

For instance, you're typical level 20 fighter gets around 15 feats, all level dependent and unalterable once chosen. A wizard, though, can put whatever spell he wants into his spellbook, and as many different ones as he likes.

Druids and Clerics automatically have access to whatever spells are accessible to their respective levels.

For every other class, they are entirely dependent on a very small subset of possibilities, each dependent on the last such subset they chose.

Feat chains totally gimp non-casters. Every class but wizard, cleric and druid, is a 'build'. The wizard doesn't need a build, since he has access to spells of such power and magnitude, he can do anything. The cleric gets full plate, great spells, and a full BAB at level 7. The Druid get's great buff spells, an animal companion, wildshape, and decent control spells.

These are all build independent qualities. You get them simply for being the class, without sacrificing anything. Infinite flexibility, given the wizards abilitiy to do anything, the cleric's casting, and the druid's morphing.

The other classes are left with a handful of feats and some class abilities that are only useful in some situations.


To fix casters, fix their ability to do anything. To do that, greatly limit their access to spells, instead of just handing it to them without making them sacrifice anything.

Thoughtbot360
2007-04-02, 11:37 PM
Disabling the classes who prepare spells without having level based spells known would severely limit their power.

For instance, you're typical level 20 fighter gets around 15 feats, all level dependent and unalterable once chosen. A wizard, though, can put whatever spell he wants into his spellbook, and as many different ones as he likes.

Druids and Clerics automatically have access to whatever spells are accessible to their respective levels.

For every other class, they are entirely dependent on a very small subset of possibilities, each dependent on the last such subset they chose.

Feat chains totally gimp non-casters. Every class but wizard, cleric and druid, is a 'build'. The wizard doesn't need a build, since he has access to spells of such power and magnitude, he can do anything. The cleric gets full plate, great spells, and a full BAB at level 7. The Druid get's great buff spells, an animal companion, wildshape, and decent control spells.

These are all build independent qualities. You get them simply for being the class, without sacrificing anything. Infinite flexibility, given the wizards abilitiy to do anything, the cleric's casting, and the druid's morphing.

The other classes are left with a handful of feats and some class abilities that are only useful in some situations.


To fix casters, fix their ability to do anything. To do that, greatly limit their access to spells, instead of just handing it to them without making them sacrifice anything.

Ah, that is what Elements of Magic actually does. It allows for increbidle variety bewteen casters (and within a single caster's repitoire), but unless the mage has two rounds to be doing _nothing_ but casting a spell he will stick to a small handful of signature spells (its only a few more spells than the fighter has feats, even less if the mage has very low intelligence!) .
Now, there are rules for him to cast from a spell book, but that spellbook is filled not with the mages own spells, but those belonging to another mage! The book will contain only with the signature spells that NPC mage choose to record in that book (but EOM mages don't need spellbooks to cast their own spells, they do so entirely from memory).

You will not carry a spellbook with a collection of your spells, but rather one of your grandfather's, or one you stole, or one you simply copied from classes in the magic academy. Actually whatever is in spellbooks you ever get are determined entirely by the DM. All you need to keep this under control is tighten the

All that being said of Elements of Magic spellbooks, its important to note that EOM mages may either devote MP they could have spontaneously used (like a sorcerer) to preparing a spell in the spell book (which will still be difficult if they do not have all the spell lists the spell uses as that requires a caster check) or the mage may cast spontaneously from a book if they have not prepared a spell, which requires a caster check even if they do have all the spell lists. Casting from a book is only useful if the mage cannot emulate the spell himself due to a limit on his spell lists or his maximum MP.

All of this might go over your head but basically a 20th Elements mage has these options:

Improving any of the 45 (out of 225) and creating a spell on the fly: Two full rounds, limited to 5 ft. adjustments, but generally is much more flexible than any book of spells (although you might have a spell written in a book that you can't quite emulate yourself)

Casting an unprepared spell from the book of some other mage: One full round action, caster check

Casting a prepared spell from a book that is simply over your MP limit or uses a metamagic feat you don't have: Standard action, must pay MP during your hour of study in the morning. (MP you could have spent on any spell you could have cast independently on a spell that might have been more useful)

Casting a prepared spell that uses spell lists you don't know: Standard action, caster check.

Casting one of your 20 + Intelligence modifier signature spells: Standard action, simple.

Uses a wand or something: uhh....well magic items are expensive and stealable, right? It basically has the same problems as a normal wand.

The point is: Its nigh impossible to learn every spell in existence in this system, and "doing everything" is pretty tough, too! For the most part, you are limited to your 20 signature spells versus the 200+ you would learn in the PHB. Elements of magic was designed with 3.0 and 3.5 D&D in mind, and I really think its worth the $9 to take a look. And thats why I keep mentioning it. Damn, I wish I was receiving a regular paycheck from E.N. Publishing...

Edit: Actually, nevermind. People won't stop talking about the 40 million other PrCs, races, and how the warblade outperforms the fighter on every level, so I'll obsess over which over system of spellcasting I want! So nyah-nyah.

Belteshazzar
2007-04-03, 12:38 AM
Just My two cents on how Knock is overpowered but Shouldn't that spell be rather noisy to cast even with silent casting. I mean the name of the spell is Knock shouldn't it make a deep sonorous clanging noise as every lock withing range is forcibly banged open. That would be embarrassing to cast during a stealth mission. The only result I can imagine in any decent dungeon would be similar to what happened in Lord of the Rings when that stupid hobbit dropped a rock down a mineshaft in an orc infested cave.