Speculation Why have they neutered the Warlock down so much? [Archive]

silveralen

2014-12-02, 08:25 AM

One of the problems with 3.5 warlock (not that there was any real shortage) was that he was built so differently from everything else that balancing him was difficult. So in this and the last edition, he was brought more in line with the other classes, if only to make balance easier. He is still very unique compared to the other classes, being the only short rest caster, the best cantrip user, and having the only collection of at will spells besides a lvl 18 wizard.

Now, his fairly lackluster spell list doesn't do him any favors (and, going by the DMG his spell list was intentionally made weak) and sometimes it'd be nice to break up his higher level slots into a few lower level slots, but he is actually close to the other classes in power this edition, while he really really wasn't in 3.5.

What makes you feel he was weakened? Reduced in uniqueness perhaps, but overall he probably came out better for it.

Now, if you wanted to make something even more like 3.5 warlock you could, by removing his spellcasting progression and replacing it with more invocations, but that's difficult to balance. Personally I'd focus more on at will lvl 1-2 spells, with the lvl 2 ones coming fairly late, and having all such spells be cast at whatever level his pact magic normally would be. The PHB already covers a lot of the options, but it wouldn't be hard to add a few more.

Then you just need to determine how to balance additional EB addons, which is a bit more difficult to judge.

For spell shapes, things like cone wouldn't be hard too hard to keep balanced, say 1 to 4 d10 to people in 15ft cone, +cha to each with AB, reflex save to avoid. That's basically at will burning hands, with no half damage guarantee (at least, I wouldn't have it, going by normal cantrip rules). You could also do a similar line variation, wouldn't bother with a chain version as the default basically does something similar as is.

For additional essences, don't let them stack with the knockback invocation, and probably allow saves against anything more potent than a plain knockback. A slow, like ray of frost, might be fine without a save, and it could change damage to cold as well. Or dealing fire damage and setting enemies a flame, giving them a saving throw to end the effect each turn or take a small (1d6?) amount of damage. Those are fairly reasonable to model as is. The one that dealt acid damage and ignore spell resistance could be added to bypass magic resistance, but that might be a step too far this edition.

The powerful ones that can blind/confuse for a turn on a failed save are trickier. Nothing like that as an at will exists at this moment (to my knowledge) until very high levels. So you could level lock it, or hope needing to both land an attack and have the enemy fail a save keeps it in check, or somehow keep it from being spread to too many targets (only works with normal EB if the target gets hit by at least two blasts etc). Honestly, this edition just doesn't have anything comparable, so I personally would avoid many of these.

At the end of the day, warlock doesn't really need such changes, but if you wanted something you could pull it off. It'd be a little odd to see a character who doesn't really need rests at all in an edition where even fighter has rechargeable abilities, but if it works for you give it a shot.

Chaosvii7

2014-12-02, 09:20 AM

Actually the only thing I truly miss about the old Warlock was the Baleful Utterance. The blast shaping is there, just not as diverse as it was before. Makes sense, as Eldritch Blast is only a cantrip and ends up bringing considerable power to the table all it's own at later levels. But I do enjoy this warlock more than the others, and this is definitely tied for my favorite class of 5e with the Bard.

ghost_warlock

2014-12-02, 11:45 AM

Blast shapes could easily be homebrewed. It won't be overpowered so long as there's a limit on the number of times per day/encounter you can use them. For instance, you could make a cone-shaped blast invocation that requires you to be 5th level or higher to take the invocation and requires you expend a spell slot when you use the invocation. Eldritch blast would then be a cone that deals the appropriate number of d10s (2d10 at 5th, 3d10 at 11th, 4d10 at 17th) to every creature in the cone, allowing a Dex save to take half damage.

Likewise, baleful utterance could be an at-will invocation that requires the warlock to be a certain level before they can take the invocation. Ascendant Step is another invocation that mimics a 2nd-level spell so 9th level seems fair.

Although I wouldn't argue that the warlock class is weak, I do feel that the lists of invocations and class spells are pretty thin. I expect WotC will be filling them out more once they start churning out splatbooks.

Regulas

2014-12-02, 01:57 PM

Warlock damage is fully competitive in 5e, they do have less versatility in there blasts now but the repleat spell list means that you get plenty of tools all the same so all in all they work out quite well. They are basically a kind of "arcane archer" type in this.

FaerieGodfather

2014-12-02, 02:32 PM

Warlocks in 3e and 4e were balanced against 3e and 4e Wizards. 5e Warlocks are balanced against 5e Wizards, who have much less damage capacity and ability to end encounters without fighting.

Yagyujubei

2014-12-02, 03:31 PM

the only thing that bugs me about warlock is how their pact spells don't work like cleric or paladin domain/oath spells.

I mean the other two classes straight up get every single spell listed for free, and can cast them without expending spell slots which is insane. I think Lock should at least get all their pact spells without spending spells known. giving them free casts like clerics get would make them way too strong but I don't think having the option to prepare from the list for free is unbalanced.

Inevitability

2014-12-02, 03:32 PM

Warlocks in 3e and 4e were balanced against 3e and 4e Wizards.

Actually, both in 3.5 and 4e wizards were stronger. Large gap in 3.5, small one in 4e.

Ninjadeadbeard

2014-12-02, 03:50 PM

Thugorp

2014-12-02, 03:55 PM

You do realize that Warlocks regenerate spell slots at a short rest, right?

Yes but so do wizards. Wizards get half of thier spell slots back every short rest. Wizards also have a many more spell slots than do Warlocs. so they end up getting about the same number of spell slots back each level.

My problem with this is that getting spells back is treated as being the warlocks one trick(I play a warlock btws) but in reality they are no better at it than a wizard is, plus they know fewer spells, plus they have almost no spell slots(wich would be o.k. if they were the only ones to be ables to regain them), plus everyone else can do endless cantripe casting now and sometimes deal more damage than them doing it. ... so ... where is the coolness. It is in the fluff which is why I picked a warlock but it would be really really nice if some of it was also in the crunch.

GWJ_DanyBoy

2014-12-02, 03:57 PM

Yes but so do wizards. Wizards get half of thier spell slots back every short rest.

They can only do their arcane recovery once a day, and it's half their wizard level in slots, not half their slots.

MaxWilson

2014-12-02, 04:07 PM

My problem with this is that getting spells back is treated as being the warlocks one trick(I play a warlock btws) but in reality they are no better at it than a wizard is, plus they know fewer spells, plus they have almost no spell slots(wich would be o.k. if they were the only ones to be ables to regain them), plus everyone else can do endless cantripe casting now and sometimes deal more damage than them doing it. ... so ... where is the coolness. It is in the fluff which is why I picked a warlock but it would be really really nice if some of it was also in the crunch.

Nobody beats warlocks on cantrip damage. Sharpshooter/GWM fighters can beat warlock with weapon damage, but nobody beats them on spell damage. Even an level 14 Invoker using Maximize does only 35 damage per round (times hit percentage), whereas the warlock (using Hex) does 42 damage per round (times per percentage) plus push effects, at a potentially far greater range.

Frenth Alunril

2014-12-02, 05:10 PM

FaerieGodfather

2014-12-02, 05:19 PM

Actually, both in 3.5 and 4e wizards were stronger. Large gap in 3.5, small one in 4e.

Sure. I'm not saying they were ideally balanced, but that they were supposed to be-- the 5e Warlock is weaker than the 3.5e and 4e versions because it's supposed to be balanced against a much weaker Wizard.

Yagyujubei

2014-12-02, 05:46 PM

I'm pretty sure the cleric and paladin still use slots when casting their domain/oath spells, they are just "always prepared" not free to cast like cantrips.

Domain spells

Each domain has a list of spells—its domain spells—
that you gain at the cleric levels noted in the domain
description. Once you gain a domain spell, you always
have it prepared, and it doesn’t count against the
number of spells you can prepare each day.

to me, that says your domain spells are separate from the spells you prepare in your slots.

Pinnacle

2014-12-02, 06:08 PM

5E casters don't prepare spells in slots.
A cleric prepares level + Wis mod spells, plus domain spells. They then cast spells with their slots.

MaxWilson

2014-12-02, 06:21 PM

I'm pretty sure the cleric and paladin still use slots when casting their domain/oath spells, they are just "always prepared" not free to cast like cantrips.

Right, but we're not talking about slots, we're talking about spells known/prepared. Warlocks can choose spells off their patron list, but it counts against their spells known (and therefore prepared, like a sorc), which is usually a low number, 2 for a 1st level warlock. Clerics get level + WIS + (Domain Spells), so typically 6 at first level including Domain spells. Clerics and druids have substantially more flexibility than warlocks for this reason.

Ashrym

2014-12-02, 07:09 PM

Domain spells

Each domain has a list of spells—its domain spells—
that you gain at the cleric levels noted in the domain
description. Once you gain a domain spell, you always
have it prepared, and it doesn’t count against the
number of spells you can prepare each day.

to me, that says your domain spells are separate from the spells you prepare in your slots.

That just means they have more prepared. It's always prepared and doesn't count against the level plus ability modifier for spell preparation.

That means at 20th level with 20 caster ability score a paladin has 25 spells prepared to spend his slots on, a cleric has 35 spells to spend slots on, and a land circle druid has 33 spells prepared to spend slots on. At no point did the number of spell slots change, only spells prepared, which is separate from preparation.

A prepared spell cannot be cast without a slot available to cast it and there is no separate slot mechanic for those spells.

Warlocks are do not prepare spells at all like those other 3 classes, do not use divine spells like those other 3 classes, and do not use or contribute to the spell progression tables like those other 3 classes there's no reason to believe they should simply add additional spells known simply because those other 3 classes work that way.

So far, I prefer warlocks to wizards or sorcerers because of all the at-will abilities available and short rest mechanic they use.

Thugorp

2014-12-03, 01:17 AM

Nobody beats warlocks on cantrip damage. Sharpshooter/GWM fighters can beat warlock with weapon damage, but nobody beats them on spell damage. Even an level 14 Invoker using Maximize does only 35 damage per round (times hit percentage), whereas the warlock (using Hex) does 42 damage per round (times per percentage) plus push effects, at a potentially far greater range.

Hex isn't a cantripe, it is a first level spell which affects only one person at a time, and is only one spell on a list of first level spells that warlocks might get three of(MIGHT if they don't take a bond spell). There are lots of warlocks who might not take the spell because it doesn't fit with thier character. Plus casting it in the first place presents it's own problems, consider that it is a spell that has you giving up 1 round of combat to do 1d6 additional damage to 1 target on your following turns, a target which might or might not be conciouse the next turn(sleep spells every caster's got them) and at 14th level I could be casting ray of death or circle of death or flesh to stone... compared to 1d6 extra damage those seem like better options since I only get 3 spells slots to use. most of the time my cantripes will be no better than anyone elses, on average Eldritch blast being cast by a level 14 warlock deas 15damage. Assuming 16 charisma and the selection of the right invocation(Agonizing Blast) this might get bossted to 24 damage(if you pick Agonizing Blast). Actually now that I have mathed it all out I am not sure where your 42 damage is coming form even with Hex a 14th level warlock is dealing an average of 24 damage or 33 damage if he has also taken Agonizing Blast. A maximized invoker does 35; 35 every time I assume since that is the point of maximize. In the end even if I take every boost I can get I am still most of the time not the most efective cantripist and even coming close is based largely on taking both of two optional selections.

So far, I prefer warlocks to wizards or sorcerers because of all the at-will abilities available and short rest mechanic they use.

It is true that they have a short rest mechanic where he will regain his spell slots each short rest, but lets compair that to a wizard. To be fair to both I will be compairing 10th level characters since this is the exact mid level. A 10th level wizard has fifteen non-cantripe spell slots and then will regain up to 5 spell slots at some point during the day for a total of 20 spell slots. The 10th level Warlock starts his day with 2 spell slots and will regain up to 2 spell slots with each short rest. For the Warlock to get as many spell slots as the Wizard he would have to short rest 9 times. That isn't going to happen. During an adventure people usually rest 3 or 4 times so on average the Warlock will get eight to ten spell slots. and that's assuming he didn't try to hord any as this would actually decrees the number of slots he would cast. All and all even with his ability to regain spell slots at short rests he will rarely get as many spell slots as the Wizard.

Shadow

2014-12-03, 01:26 AM

all that

1. Hex is a bonus action to cast, so you aren't wasting anything on it.
2. Hex lasts as long as you concentrate, and can switch targets during that time, so it doesn't matter if your target dies. Just pick a new target.
3. Hex applies on each hit. Every blast from EB is a separate attack roll, so each blast is a different hit.
4. That makes each agonizing blast deal 1d10+1d6+5 with max Cha, which averages to 5.5+3.5+5=14(*4)=56 at 20th level. At 14th level, which is what was referenced there, you'd be dealing 42 on average if all 3 hit.

Warlocks are far and away the ranged magic cantrip damage dealing champions, hands down.

The wizard in your example doesn't get five SLOTS back, he gets five LEVELS of spell slots back. That can be three 1st level slots and a 2nd level slot, or it can be a single 5th level slot. If he always uses it on his highest level slot, he only gets that one slot back, ever, until he reaches 19th level where he can get one 9th level slot and one 1st level slot (totaling ten, which is half his level).

Basically every single thing you typed was incorrect.

As to the OP: Warlocks in 5e are extremely powerful.... if your group makes good use of short rests. The more short rests the group takes, the more powerful the warlock is.
If you go by what is expected, wherein the group takes a short rest every two or three encounters (about twice per day) then he is balanced extremely well vs the other casters.
If your group lacks the time to take short rests, or simply chooses not to, then he feels a bit weak in comparison.

MaxWilson

2014-12-03, 02:09 AM

most of the time my cantripes will be no better than anyone elses, on average Eldritch blast being cast by a level 14 warlock deas 15damage. Assuming 16 charisma and the selection of the right invocation(Agonizing Blast) this might get bossted to 24 damage(if you pick Agonizing Blast). Actually now that I have mathed it all out I am not sure where your 42 damage is coming form even with Hex a 14th level warlock is dealing an average of 24 damage or 33 damage if he has also taken Agonizing Blast. A maximized invoker does 35; 35 every time I assume since that is the point of maximize. In the end even if I take every boost I can get I am still most of the time not the most efective cantripist and even coming close is based largely on taking both of two optional selections.

1.) Of course you take Agonizing Blast. Why wouldn't you? It's the single best feature of the Warlock class.
2.) The math for a 14th level warlock is like this: 1d10 (each Eldritch Blast bolt) + 1d6 (Hex) + 5 (CHA bonus -- assuming 20 CHA) = 5.5 + 3.5 + 5 = 14 points of damage per hit. A 14th level character who hits with all three bolts will do 14 * 3 = 42 points of damage, which is more than the 35 the Invoker can do with a Maximized cantrip.
3.) Yes, there are sometimes cases where you can't/won't use Hex, and in these cases you'll do only 31.5 point of damage. By the same token, the Invoker doesn't always want to Maximize his cantrips, either because he's saving up for a maximized Meteor Swarm or something (if 17th+ level) or because his DM thinks maximizing cantrips for free is cheese. If he doesn't Maximize, he does only 3d10+5 = 21.5 points of damage with his cantrip.
4.) If the wizard is an Enchanter or Illusionist or something, his cantrips do only 16.5 points of damage.
5.) The Warlock is doing Force damage, which almost nothing can resist, but the wizard is doing Fire damage for his 3d10, which lots of things resist, or else he is accepting an even lower damage like 3d8 for necrotic damage, which is low enough to be almost irrelevant.

Warlock is hands-down better at at-will damage than a wizard is. Wizards, however, are better at stuff like Web and Confusion.

Ashrym

2014-12-03, 03:08 AM

It is true that they have a short rest mechanic where he will regain his spell slots each short rest, but lets compair that to a wizard. To be fair to both I will be compairing 10th level characters since this is the exact mid level. A 10th level wizard has fifteen non-cantripe spell slots and then will regain up to 5 spell slots at some point during the day for a total of 20 spell slots. The 10th level Warlock starts his day with 2 spell slots and will regain up to 2 spell slots with each short rest. For the Warlock to get as many spell slots as the Wizard he would have to short rest 9 times. That isn't going to happen. During an adventure people usually rest 3 or 4 times so on average the Warlock will get eight to ten spell slots. and that's assuming he didn't try to hord any as this would actually decrees the number of slots he would cast. All and all even with his ability to regain spell slots at short rests he will rarely get as many spell slots as the Wizard.

The standard is 2 short rests for DM guidelines. The warlock has better at-will's including some first and second level spells at that level and that's something a long ways away for the wizard when spell mastery is acquired, and those 2 warlock slots are always cast in the highest level slots. That means 6 fifth level spells when the wizard only has 2, or 3 using arcane recovery for a 5th level slot, or half what the warlock has. The short rest mechanic means more of the highest level spell slot available, usually, and better at-will options puts warlocks in a good place. Going tome is even better in the comparison for book of ancient secrets for similar ritual mechanics.

It doesn't matter if the wizard has more slots when the warlock has more of the best slots and better at-wills when both will be using at-wills regardless throughout the typical day.

The wizard in your example doesn't get five SLOTS back, he gets five LEVELS of spell slots back. That can be three 1st level slots and a 2nd level slot, or it can be a single 5th level slot. If he always uses it on his highest level slot, he only gets that one slot back, ever, until he reaches 19th level where he can get one 9th level slot and one 1st level slot (totaling ten, which is half his level).

A slight correction: Wizards and druids cannot renew spell slots higher than fifth level with arcane or natural recovery. At 19th level the wizard could recover 2 fifth level spells once by using a short rest.

Of course, if we're talking that high of level the warlock has 12 fifth level spell slots after 2 short rests, which is a lot.

Shadow

2014-12-03, 03:17 AM

A slight correction: Wizards and druids cannot renew spell slots higher than fifth level with arcane or natural recovery. At 19th level the wizard could recover 2 fifth level spells once by using a short rest.

Ah, yeah, I had forgotten that they were limited to 5th for recovery.

Gwendol

2014-12-03, 03:26 AM

Sure. I'm not saying they were ideally balanced, but that they were supposed to be-- the 5e Warlock is weaker than the 3.5e and 4e versions because it's supposed to be balanced against a much weaker Wizard.

It's not weaker. The 3.5 Warlock is well below the 3.5 bard in power and versatility. The 3.5 warlock was not balanced against the wizard (nothing, barring other full casters, is).

SpawnOfMorbo

2014-12-03, 03:37 AM

It's weird. All other classes got boosts in 5e, except for the Warlock which in some ways atually got neutered down. Yeah they got spells, but their Invocations are nearly useless and non unique, and EB is nothing special anymore.

Where are the blast changing invocations, like sickening blast? They should have built upon these great ideas, rather than change the class and remove them entirely.

And what about Baleful Utterence? Was at will shatter really all that powerful that they got rid of it?

Why did they do this you think?

First off, the warlock is on of the best all around classes in the game.

And actually coming from 4e, the martial classes got nerfed big time.

Just take a look at all the things you can do as a martial character in 4e and compare them to 5e. In 5e they essentially took at the martial classes and turned them into strikers because for whatever reason giving martials interesting options breaks people's minds. Even the Battle master doesn't have squat compared to a second level 4e martial.

The warlock got changed up but can still do a ton of interesting and useful stuff. Hardly neutered like the non casters.

Dalebert

2014-12-03, 11:45 AM

4. That makes each agonizing blast deal 1d10+1d6+5 with max Cha, which averages to 5.5+3.5+5=14(*4)=56 at 20th level. At 14th level, which is what was referenced there, you'd be dealing 42 on average if all 3 hit.

Warlocks are far and away the ranged magic cantrip damage dealing champions, hands down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4PSlqt4BQ

I don't actually have a problem with warlocks power level compared to other classes. If anything, they are a bit OP in certain respects. For instance, it bugs me that they made some of their invocations into the ability to know more spells which makes them potentially better than sorcerers in that respect when sorcerers are focused on spells.

Invocations have a certain feel. They're supposed to be powers. EB and other powers in 3.5 were different in that they didn't have verbal components. I nice perk for silence or stealth. That's gone now. I think that they wanted to go the route of keeping things simple so they made the mechanics of all magic be spells, so I mostly am forgiving about this change. It just bugs me to take a spells known slot and make that interchangeable with an invocation.

#1 It makes warlocks able to know more spells than a sorcerer which doesn't seem right to sorcerers.
#2 Just add those invocations to their spell list for crying out loud and make them give up their limited spells known slots for them. Warlocks are supposed to hit hard and have things they can do a lot but be less versatile. This makes them potentially more versatile on top of the other perks they have over sorcerers.
#3 It doesn't fit for an invocation which should be more like powers. Devil's Sight and Eldritch Sight seem more invocationy than casting a spell using a slot once per day.

The only other peeve I have with warlocks is not so much they have too few invocation choices as they made them so disproportionate in usefulness such that it seems to me most warlocks are going to pick the same ones and be much alike. So they have fewer viable choices in a sense. But these are definitely peeves and not beefs. Overall, I think they did pretty well designing the class. If anything, I feel like sorcerers got the short end of the stick in 5e but I haven't analyzed them that closely and I'm sure some folks here will school me on how I'm wrong about that. :smallredface:

Quarterling

2014-12-03, 12:54 PM

it seems to me the more I play with the Warlock that they are stunningly consistent at specialized jobs.

for some examples I've seen/done:

1.you could make a lower level pact of blade warlock that can see in magical darkness at fifth level you could fight someone for ten rounds of combat with advantage on all YOUR attacks while they have disadvantage that's huge.

2.you could make and infiltrator that has disguise self up constantly and could invade any group reliably with the actor feat you could deceive just about anyone murder someone go around a corner and change your face.

3.A warlock scout is the best scout in the game easily. having an invisible pixie with their stupid stealth modifier constantly around is very good

and regardless of what you are good or bad at you have access to agonizing blast giving you access to the most powerful damage cantrip in the game to always fall back on. Point being if your thinking warlocks are standard casters you're dead wrong, they're designed to be specialist and frankly they are incredible at it.

not to mention they have patron features which are plain juicy by any means, being immune to certain spell effects and gaining resistances to different damage types, the 14th level abilities range from decent fey save-or-suck ability, the fiend is a very nice ability with no save, and the great old one gives you access to the best enthrall ability in the game, seriously that enthrall ability in myopinion is almost stronger than some classes 20th level abilities.

Dalebert

2014-12-03, 01:11 PM

... and the great old one gives you access to the best enthrall ability in the game, seriously that enthrall ability in myopinion is almost stronger than some classes 20th level abilities.

Depends a lot on how loosely the DM interprets the charmed condition. Based on some people's (overly-strict IMHO) interpretation as I've heard it here, the word "thrall" is completely out of place.

Quarterling

2014-12-03, 01:45 PM

MaxWilson

2014-12-03, 02:22 PM

I suppose that is DM centric but the way the book reads it should be a dangerous ability, if you can see through their mind and the effect is called create thrall, IMO if a DM nerfs it to the point of uselessness he's being a little unfair. I could understand a reasonable nerf of it like making it dependent on what you enthrall that'd make sense.

I think it's a bug in RAW. In my games I plan to make it a permanent Dominate effect, to match the telepathic communication. Simple inability-to-attack-me doesn't match the flavour text of the ability.

Quarterling

2014-12-03, 02:31 PM

I think it's a bug in RAW. In my games I plan to make it a permanent Dominate effect, to match the telepathic communication. Simple inability-to-attack-me doesn't match the flavour text of the ability.

Exactly what I'm thinking. Flavor-wise You just took a creature and exposed them to the unfathomable horror that is a primordial terror like Cthulhu and shattered their mind and rebuilt it to your liking, it should be your slave.

ghost_warlock

2014-12-03, 07:12 PM

The only other peeve I have with warlocks is not so much they have too few invocation choices as they made them so disproportionate in usefulness such that it seems to me most warlocks are going to pick the same ones and be much alike. So they have fewer viable choices in a sense.

This is my biggest problem with the warlock class. Too many of the invocations are poorly-executed additions to the spell list. If they were going to make spells into invocations, they should be at-will like ascendant step or visions of distant realms. Making an invocation burn one of your spell slots and be only usable once per day is trash, even for something like polymorph.

I'll probably end up taking sculptor of flesh for most of my warlock builds, but it's more because you run out of decent invocations to choose from pretty quickly. After agonizing blast, repelling blast, book of ancient secrets, and devil's sight it seems you mostly choose crap to fill a slot until you get to the higher level invocations at level 15. The only exception is if you have a build that absolutely needs to, say, be able to levitate at will (at the cost of your Concentration...I'll pass, thanks).

it seems to me the more I play with the Warlock that they are stunningly consistent at specialized jobs.

...

and regardless of what you are good or bad at you have access to agonizing blast giving you access to the most powerful damage cantrip in the game to always fall back on.

This is something I've come to appreciate about the warlock class - the same class can be used to model a large assortment of different build concepts. It's definitely no bard, as each of these typically requires a fairly heavy investment of spells known and invocations, but that seems to work out fairly well because you'll always have eldritch blast to fall back on.

In the game I'm going to be playing in starting this Sunday, I've worked with my DM to re-fluff an Old One warlock class as a psion. I'm taking lots of mind-altering and -controlling powers and renaming spells with psionic-sounding names. Eldritch Blast became Concussion Blast, Hex became Psychic Brand, Arms of Hadar became Mental Trauma, Armor or Agathys became Aspect of Bitter Ice, and so on. The only mechanical changes we've made is that Hex and Arms of Hadar are psychic damage and Arms of Hadar is a Wisdom save.

Now I just need to convince my DM to let me make Detect Thoughts into an at-will invocation (probably requiring 7th or 9th level) instead of burning a spell slot for it. :smalltongue:

Dominuce2112

2014-12-04, 01:45 PM

It's weird. All other classes got boosts in 5e, except for the Warlock which in some ways atually got neutered down. Yeah they got spells, but their Invocations are nearly useless and non unique, and EB is nothing special anymore.

Where are the blast changing invocations, like sickening blast? They should have built upon these great ideas, rather than change the class and remove them entirely.

And what about Baleful Utterence? Was at will shatter really all that powerful that they got rid of it?

Why did they do this you think?

Can you show examples of how the other classes got such obvious "boosts" while the warlock for "neutered"? Or how the invocations are useless? Devils sight is amazing, the EB boosts are HUGE and EB itself is one of the most sought after cantrips in the game.

This isnt 3.5. I dont know what youre complaining about.

andhaira

2014-12-05, 06:43 AM

By the way, has anyone experimented with the variant short rest rule in the DMG, where short rests last for 5 min instead of 1 hour? That would be very advantageous for Warlocks, as you can have a short rest after ever encounter without slowing the game down at all, unless if you are chasing someone in game.

ghost_warlock

2014-12-05, 09:06 AM

Can you show examples of how the other classes got such obvious "boosts" while the warlock for "neutered"?

Here's a few just for good measure:

Rogues can Sneak Attack constructs and undead.
Druids can wildshape at 2nd level and basically triple their hp/encounter by doing so.
Barbarians get to add their Con-mod to AC.
Bards can learn a few spells from any other class.
Almost everything about the fighter and monk.
Paladin Cha-mod to saves can potentially affect the entire party.

Dalebert

2014-12-05, 11:50 AM

the only thing that bugs me about warlock is how their pact spells don't work like cleric or paladin domain/oath spells.

Huh. Yeah, that sounds pretty good. I might houserule that.

My DM did just that. Actually he compromised and said we get one of the two at each level without using a spells known slot. I considered it icing as I don't feel like warlocks should have a better spells known than a sorcerer as I've said before. In fact, this entire thread makes me want to start a similar thread about sorcerers. :) I think the proof is in the pudding. Warlocks appear to be one of the most popular classes in 5e so they probably don't suck. It honestly bothers me that they can "know" far more spells than a sorcerer.

It is something of a peeve that they only get 2 slots all the way until 11th level. In theory, their invocations should make up for that but so many of them are just extra spells known with a 1/day limitation and still use one of their very limited slots anyway which completely fails to compensate. I feel like they should either just remain 1/day but not use a slot or just get rid of those invocations altogether and add them to the warlock spell list. I'm actually inclined to house rule something like that.

Can anyone explain to me the thinking behind this? I figure it's some kind of balancing issue but it seems all wonky. For instance, they seem to fear the idea of letting warlocks cast certain spells too often, presumably after every short rest, like bane or polymorph. But aren't those spells of equivalent power to other spells of the same level that a warlock already CAN cast more often? Did they mis-level those spells?

ghost_warlock

2014-12-05, 12:25 PM

It is something of a peeve that they only get 2 slots all the way until 11th level. In theory, their invocations should make up for that but so many of them are just extra spells known with a 1/day limitation and still use one of their very limited slots anyway which completely fails to compensate. I feel like they should either just remain 1/day but not use a slot or just get rid of those invocations altogether and add them to the warlock spell list. I'm actually inclined to house rule something like that.

Can anyone explain to me the thinking behind this? I figure it's some kind of balancing issue but it seems all wonky. For instance, they seem to fear the idea of letting warlocks cast certain spells too often, presumably after every short rest, like bane or polymorph. But aren't those spells of equivalent power to other spells of the same level that a warlock already CAN cast more often? Did they mis-level those spells?

Other than Mire the Mind, Sculptor of Flesh, and (arguably) Minions of Chaos, the effects of pretty much all of these 1/day+spell slot invocations could probably be achieved, or even done better, by just using the native or pact spell lists. Most of them could be duplicated easily enough with an illusion spell - hypnotic pattern or even minor illusion. Furthermore, by the time you can even take most of these invocations (7th-9th) you've already got access to hold person or banishment.

silveralen

2014-12-05, 01:04 PM

Sartharina

2014-12-05, 01:35 PM

The wizard in your example doesn't get five SLOTS back, he gets five LEVELS of spell slots back. That can be three 1st level slots and a 2nd level slot, or it can be a single 5th level slot. If he always uses it on his highest level slot, he only gets that one slot back, ever, until he reaches 19th level where he can get one 9th level slot and one 1st level slot (totaling ten, which is half his level).
Wizards cannot recover any spell slot higher than level 5.

MaxWilson

2014-12-05, 02:46 PM

They seemed to have been worried about giving warlock to good of a spell list due to his short rest recharge. If you read about variant classes and spells I'm the DMG you can tell they considered it a major potential balance issue.

Is it? Probably not. I have a feeling this is another "arcane spells in plate" issue, where they dramatically over value to power of something and thus lock it a bit too tight, hence the invocations using spell slots and being 1 per day.

You really do have to be kind of careful. A warlock with Animate Dead, for example, gets insane amounts of undead per day compared to a Necromancer. By 11th level, each short rest he can refresh control over 24 zombies, so it's trivial for him to support 100 zombies/skeletons and still adventure for 8 hours with full spell slots. That's a big swing in power just from adding a single spell to the Warlock spell list. I imagine lesser-but-similar problems could occur from giving them access to Conjure Elemental or Polymorph: basically any spell which lets you be proactive.

Quarterling

2014-12-05, 03:42 PM

You really do have to be kind of careful. A warlock with Animate Dead, for example, gets insane amounts of undead per day compared to a Necromancer. By 11th level, each short rest he can refresh control over 24 zombies, so it's trivial for him to support 100 zombies/skeletons and still adventure for 8 hours with full spell slots. That's a big swing in power just from adding a single spell to the Warlock spell list. I imagine lesser-but-similar problems could occur from giving them access to Conjure Elemental or Polymorph: basically any spell which lets you be proactive.

I feel like the warlock has the same issue as the stormborne cleric they have a powerful channel divinity ability to do max damage on lightening and thunder spells is an amazing ability that's really neutered by the fact that clerics don't get access to higher damage lightening or thunder spells I was really excited about that until i realize they can't even cast lightening bolt. Warlocks can easily be broken with the slightest of tweakings like this. the only thing I think I'd like to tweak is an errata to their single spell invocations allowing them to cast them more based on their level or maybe giving them more utility spells. that being said Warlocks are already very dangerous IMO but I am a little disappointed that several of their invocations are kind of a waste.

Daishain

2014-12-05, 03:55 PM

the great old one gives you access to the best enthrall ability in the game, seriously that enthrall ability in myopinion is almost stronger than some classes 20th level abilities.
If it actually did what it suggests it does yes, but not as it stands. Frankly, right now I would stick it in with the level 1 abilities, under the name "Cause Mild Infatuation"

All Create Thrall does is charm the person. Bear in mind that the only thing the charm condition does in this edition is prevent them from attacking you specifically (nothing stopping them from killing your friends btw), and gives you an edge on diplomacy rolls with them

People are of the opinion that charm was at one point closer to domination, and they failed to reassess Create Thrall when they changed the charm condition to what it is now.

MaxWilson

2014-12-05, 04:04 PM

If it actually did what it suggests it does yes, but not as it stands. Frankly, right now I would stick it in with the level 1 abilities, under the name "Cause Mild Infatuation"

I would name it "Create Telepathic Link." Mostly good for the party rogue when he's going solo, so he can call for help if he gets into trouble.

Dalebert

2014-12-05, 04:05 PM

You really do have to be kind of careful. A warlock with Animate Dead, for example, gets insane amounts of undead per day compared to a Necromancer. By 11th level, each short rest he can refresh control over 24 zombies, so it's trivial for him to support 100 zombies/skeletons and still adventure for 8 hours with full spell slots. That's a big swing in power just from adding a single spell to the Warlock spell list. I imagine lesser-but-similar problems could occur from giving them access to Conjure Elemental or Polymorph: basically any spell which lets you be proactive.

Okay, but you specifically took a spell that seems inherently broken in that it's stackable in the first place. I don't understand why they didn't put a limitation in the spell itself like recasting it releases any other undead under your control. They already give necromancers a boost in their undead hit points and if they wanted they could give them an inherent loophole in how many they control with the spell. In any case, warlocks don't have that spell either on their list or as an invocation.

But how is any other spell listed as a 1/day invocation broken like that? Polymorph lasts an hour. If you rest, it's over and you have to blow another slot to cast it again. I don't see any inherent brokeness to it other than the arbitrary "we think this is a really cool spell for 4th level so we don't want locks casting it too much even though we're okay with them casting any other 4th or 5th level spell as often as they have slots for them."

MaxWilson

2014-12-05, 04:24 PM

Sartharina

2014-12-05, 04:34 PM

silveralen

2014-12-05, 04:39 PM

But the designers aren't cool with it. The DMG specifically calls out the warlock as one class you should be careful about adding spells to, because of that short rest mechanic. The absence of Animate Dead, Polymorph, and Conjure Elemental from their spell list is therefore deliberate. Warlocks get reactive spells for the most part, not proactive spells.

Do I really need to outline how adding summoning spells to the warlock list dramatically alters their available playstyles, or is it sufficiently obvious that adding 200 weapon-resistant HP to the party per short rest is monstrously good?

Oh I agree, there are spells that really don't work on the list. Still, I feel they went overboard, and forcing say polymorph to burn a spell slot in addition to being once a day seems overkill. By the same token, warlock being able to summon undead makes sense, so having an invocation to summon skeletons or whatever, but limiting it either by day or by having old summons expire if new creatures are summoned would work.

MaxWilson

2014-12-05, 04:54 PM

Oh I agree, there are spells that really don't work on the list. Still, I feel they went overboard, and forcing say polymorph to burn a spell slot in addition to being once a day seems overkill. By the same token, warlock being able to summon undead makes sense, so having an invocation to summon skeletons or whatever, but limiting it either by day or by having old summons expire if new creatures are summoned would work.

Well, if you're asking for my opinion, I think I would allow the warlock invocation for Polymorph to simply add Polymorph to their spell list. You've burned an invocation, now you get to play with Giant Apes all day. It's no worse than what a sorcerer can do.

I would not, however, add Polymorph to the warlock spell list without that invocation.

Moon Druids.

Since the impact of Moon Druids on playstyle is well-known, I'll take that as agreement. Warlock would be even better though in combat than a Moon Druid because in addition to having your 1/short rest Fire Elemental like a Moon Druid, you'd have the warlock himself there shooting laser beams from his eyes every round.

P.S. As a total aside, Fire Elementals are one of the only ways for a mid-level wizard to efficiently kill a Rakshasa.

Shadow

2014-12-05, 04:57 PM

But that's precisely why many of those spells have a "once per day and you still use a spell slot" clause. Because warlocks aren't meant to be able to do those things all day long. If they were meant to be able to use those spells all day long, then those spells would be on their list to begin with.

MaxWilson

2014-12-05, 04:59 PM

Shadow

2014-12-05, 05:02 PM

I'm not sure whether you're addressing me or not, but I agree with this statement.

I was replying both to you and the post you quoted.
Simply adding a spell via invocation would be too powerful in many cases, and polymorph is definitely one of those cases.
An invocation for polymorph should absolutely come with the 1/day+slot clause.

silveralen

2014-12-05, 05:07 PM

I was replying both to you and the post you quoted.
Simply adding a spell via invocation would be too powerful in many cases, and polymorph is definitely one of those cases.
An invocation for polymorph should absolutely come with the 1/day+slot clause.

Why not just once a day? Why burn the spell slot as well? They already come at a premium for mid level warlock.

MaxWilson

2014-12-05, 05:16 PM

I was replying both to you and the post you quoted.
Simply adding a spell via invocation would be too powerful in many cases, and polymorph is definitely one of those cases.
An invocation for polymorph should absolutely come with the 1/day+slot clause.

Well, I definitely agree that Polymorph shouldn't be on the regular spell list.

I think Sculptor of Flesh is too weak for an invocation and I would therefore drop the 1/long rest restriction, thus allowing you to build a specialized Giant Ape-lock who transforms the wizard into a giant ape for the medium fights, thus allowing the wizard to save on spell slots. I.e. invocations should be awesome and character-defining, and the 1/day ones aren't. An 8th level Sorcerer can create Tyrannosaurus Rexes from party members six times a day, to which this is comparable.

But that would obviously be my own house rule, and only after a bit more thought (and math RE: wizard/sorcerer) than this forum post. Forum posts are non-binding on me as a DM.

Dalebert

2014-12-05, 05:20 PM

Do I really need to outline how adding summoning spells to the warlock list dramatically alters their available playstyles, or is it sufficiently obvious that adding 200 weapon-resistant HP to the party per short rest is monstrously good?

I haven't seen these spells in play much at all so consider this my introduction to how broken these spells can be. Wild Shape and Polymorph both seem a bit broken but then it's nearly as disturbing that a druid can do this with the same frequency and a Sorcerer can do it 3 times a day at 9th lvl which is nearly as bad as a warlock and still have a lot of other spell slots to be doing other non-concentration things during the same combat.

So I understand why they did it but that tends to reinforce my original point--that the spell itself seems kind of broken and that's where the fix needs to go. Still think if they're going to declare it unfit as a warlock spell, they should at least make it not use up a spell slot as it's already 1/day.

Anyhoo, I was only going to take 4 levels of sorcerer on my lock but maybe I should consider 7. :smallwink: I'm actually not that big on polymorph. Maybe I'll change tunes once I've seen it in action.

MaxWilson

2014-12-05, 05:48 PM

Polymorph doesn't scale much past 8th level due to lack of beasts tougher than a Tyrrannosaur. (Also it's problematic from a fluff perspective: how would you even know they exist?) When I said "200 weapon-resistant HP, per short rest" I was referring to Conjure Elemental.

Yes a sorcerer or wizard can polymorph without an invocation, but they don't get Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Spear and Tome of Secrets or whatever it's called. Opportunity cost.

Ohnoeszz

2014-12-05, 06:01 PM

Why not just once a day? Why burn the spell slot as well? They already come at a premium for mid level warlock.

It should be once a day and no slot cost. Once a day will keep it from being abused and the Warlock desperately needs ways to be active while not constantly stressing the low level of spell slots.

I'd like to add that Mask of Many Faces is extremely underrated as an at will ability and this is exactly what I like about warlocks: Making disguise self essentially a cantrip is a fantastic class option that no other class can imitate without expending valuable resources like spell slots or time and disguise kits.

In one game... I talked to a merchant about some magical items that cost too much. After moving on around the corner, I circled back disguised as one of the antagonists to my group and charmed the unsuspecting merchant under my breath before reminding him I was there to collect the items and gold he was holding for me. We left town shortly after much richer.

In another instance... We entered the empty front hall of an Orc keep and could hear/see enemies ahead. I flipped on disguise self as an Orc before casting mirror image and trundling slowly down the main path imitating an Orc patrol. I made it into the armory room, looted a magical sword and dispatched some guards before getting position behind the upcoming fight in the main hall.

Other classes can pull this stuff off as well but it strains their resources more - a wizard may not want to spend one of his last slots to try a social ploy. The ability to stack passive things like mask of many faces, beguiling influence, and the actor feat in a single cohesive package is what makes the Warlock special to me.

MaxWilson

2014-12-05, 06:40 PM

I'd like to add that Mask of Many Faces is extremely underrated as an at will ability and this is exactly what I like about warlocks: Making disguise self essentially a cantrip is a fantastic class option that no other class can imitate without expending valuable resources like spell slots or time and disguise kits.

I agree. It's fantastic for scouting: "I transform to look like a wounded goblin." "I change into the shape of a drow warrior." "I become an officer of the guard." If you've ever read Northworld, you know how fantastically awesome a good disguise generator + intel support can make you. (If you have not read /Northworld/, read this chapter (http://www.baenebooks.com/chapters/0671577875/0671577875.htm?blurb) immediately to get what I'm talking about a lone warrior invades a whole planet full of militaristic murderers, kills/impersonates his way through their defense perimeter, and destroys the planet by turning their own technology against them.)

Disguise Self is arguably a better candidate for wizard Spell Master at 18th level than Shield is, unless you happen to be a plate armor-wearing Fighter 1-Wizard 18.

Also, Hat of Disguise is awesome and anyone who ever finds one should stand up and do the happy dance.

Dalebert

2014-12-05, 06:56 PM

I don't think proper weight is being given to the downside of these slots per short rest. All the way through lvl 10, a lock has just 2 slots in any particular encounter. At 10, other casters have 15 that they can use at any time. Yes, those 2 are high-powered slots but a frequent problem is going to be a drawn-out battle where something goes unexpectedly. It's not that hard for a typical caster to blow through some extra slots for a really tough encounter or make a point to save a slot or two for a Misty Step or some other butt-saver. A warlock's invocations should be what they fall back on for particulary long and/or tough encounters when they're out of slots as they often will find themselves to be. That's when a 1/day spell that's otherwise too powerful to just add to their spell list could be their butt-saver.

We were just in a hobgoblin cave and each fight was making noise that attracted more from down the hall despite all efforts at quick and silent resolutions. A single battle was getting really drawn out and I was tapped out in no time. 2 slots per short rest became 2 slots for the entire dungeon. Sure, opportunity cost for playing something other than a lock but that opportunity cost goes both ways.

I'll see if my DM wants to house rule this but if not, I'll probably just avoid these invocations as they don't make sense to me. I'm having enough difficulty trying to manage already very limited resources and the warlock spell list ain't bad without them IMHO. I'll save my precious invocation slots for something "in addition to" versus "instead of" my spell slots.

MaxWilson

2014-12-05, 07:18 PM

I don't think proper weight is being given to the downside of these slots per short rest.

I'm weighting that limitation quite heavily. It's why proactive vs. reactive is important.

And yes, if I were your DM and you wanted to have Sculptor of Flesh be usable 1/day without a spell slot instead of adding Polymorph to your spell list, I would allow that too. I think that makes the invocation be about the right power level.

Thugorp

2014-12-05, 10:39 PM

This all kinda goes to the point of Warlocks being week. In order to make them ballanced almost everyone is making changes to them, like making many of thier invocations take no spell slots or changing what Create Thrall does(which only 1/3ed of warlocks get). Heck even using mirror image to imitate a patrole of orcs takes leeway on the DM's part(I agree with the leeway and when I dm I always alow it) but as raw it only has a few very basic effects.
Also, the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation can't be taken by all warlocks, only warlocks who take the packt of the tolm can take it; Chain and blade warlocks can't.

O.k. I know that sounds winey but... I guess I feel upset about it baceause the selling point of this game was consice simple and painstakingly balanced rules that makes play simple for players and game running desision free for D.M.s to the point where the D.M.G. shouldn't be nessisary. Which is how the D.M. runing my game is playing it pure raw no judgement calls. This is the first time I havn't D.M.ed ever and I wanted to play for a change and was willing to play with a novice D.M. to make that happen I thought, hey a system where the selling point was simplisity clarity and ballance it would be perfect for a novice g.m. ... but... nope. I could list all the things that are writen in shouch a way that they won't be understood and/or used correctly unless you know from past additions what they should be but I know this is getting off topic I will open a new thread for this later instead of draging this one off topic.

JoeJ

2014-12-05, 10:44 PM

O.k. I know that sounds winey but... I guess I feel upset about it baceause the selling point of this game was consice simple and painstakingly balanced rules that makes play simple for players and game running desision free for D.M.s to the point where the D.M.G. shouldn't be nessisary.

When did Wizards say the DM Guide shouldn't be necessary?

MaxWilson

2014-12-05, 10:54 PM

This all kinda goes to the point of Warlocks being week. In order to make them ballanced almost everyone is making changes to them, like making many of thier invocations take no spell slots or changing what Create Thrall does(which only 1/3ed of warlocks get).

Not really. I would tweak Sculptor of Flesh not because warlocks are weak but because that invocation is weak-ish. (The other spell invocations are even weaker.) It makes warlocks broader, not stronger, because there are other good invocations already which are better than that one. Agonizing/Repelling Blast, Eldritch Spear, the ritual secrets one, Mask of Many Faces, Devil's Sight, Ascendant Step all come to mind. (The value of Ascendant Step is dependent on playstyle. In dungeon with 10' ceilings it's pretty worthless; outdoors it's good; with a DM who likes vertical navigation with ladders and cave cliffs and such it's amazing.)

Ideally I'd like all the invocations I offer to warlocks to be good enough to be interesting, and that's why I would tweak the spell-like invocations.

The fundamental rule about balance is that the strength of a set of options (e.g. a class) is based on the best option available to you, not the number of weaker options. If class X can cast nine spells, or choose between nine subclasses, and eight of them are trash and the ninth one is amazingly good, you cannot claim that X is underpowered. You can only claim at most that it is boring and samey.

Dalebert

2014-12-05, 11:48 PM

This all kinda goes to the point of Warlocks being week.

What Max said. I just won't take the invocations that make me use a spell slot for a 1/day spell because I think they are subpar. That just means I'll take something else and there are good options. It goes back to what I said earlier in the thread (I think). It's not that warlocks are weak. In fact they seem to be a popular class for a reason. but I feel like they gave them a bunch of options but most aren't very good so most warlocks are going to pick all the same ones and end up alike.

ghost_warlock

2014-12-06, 06:19 AM

Not really. I would tweak Sculptor of Flesh not because warlocks are weak but because that invocation is weak-ish. (The other spell invocations are even weaker.) It makes warlocks broader, not stronger, because there are other good invocations already which are better than that one. Agonizing/Repelling Blast, Eldritch Spear, the ritual secrets one, Mask of Many Faces, Devil's Sight, Ascendant Step all come to mind. (The value of Ascendant Step is dependent on playstyle. In dungeon with 10' ceilings it's pretty worthless; outdoors it's good; with a DM who likes vertical navigation with ladders and cave cliffs and such it's amazing.)

My beef with ascendant step is that, by the time you can actually take that invocation, I don't see why you wouldn't just cast fly instead. How many times per day do you really need to levitate anyway?

Ideally I'd like all the invocations I offer to warlocks to be good enough to be interesting, and that's why I would tweak the spell-like invocations.

The fundamental rule about balance is that the strength of a set of options (e.g. a class) is based on the best option available to you, not the number of weaker options. If class X can cast nine spells, or choose between nine subclasses, and eight of them are trash and the ninth one is amazingly good, you cannot claim that X is underpowered. You can only claim at most that it is boring and samey.

The problem with these invocations is twofold. For starters, making them only usable once per day and making them burn a spell slot makes them too costly.

The second problem is that they're simply redundant.

Out of all of the 1/day invocations, minions of chaos and sculptor of flesh are the only two that actually broaden the warlock's range and provide benefits that can't more-or-less be duplicated with the native spell list. All of the others are just different variations on the theme of debuffing enemies, which is something warlocks already have plenty of options for between hex, crown of madness, darkness, enthrall, hold person, ray of enfeeblement, fear, hunger of hadar, hypnotic pattern, banishment, blight, and hold monster (without even getting into the charms, other illusions, and the level 6+ spells).

Bewitching whispers, dreadful word, mire the mind, and thief of five fates are far too similar to each other and the other spells already on the warlock spell list. There isn't really any reason why someone wouldn't just take one of these invocations, if any. More than likely mire the mind will be the one chosen since it's available sooner and seems like it'd work out to be the most effective. Sign of ill omen also has the unfortunate issue that, thematically, bestow curse should just be on the warlock spell list in the first place.