Oversized arrows do Not Work

[Arael666]

I always read about shrink item and oversized arrows abuse, then about 15 minutes ago a thought ocurred to me: the damage an arrow inflicts when lauched is linked to the bow/crossbow, not the arrow itself. The arrow or bolt only inflict damage by themselves when used in melee, as SRD states:


Arrows
An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (-4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier ×2). Arrows come in a leather quiver that holds 20 arrows. An arrow that hits its target is destroyed; one that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.


Bolts
A crossbow bolt used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (-4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (crit ×2). Bolts come in a wooden case that holds 10 bolts (or 5, for a repeating crossbow). A bolt that hits its target is destroyed; one that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

The players handbook table 7-5 shows arrows as having no damage whatsoever:

http://i.imgur.com/mDpPbxH.png

Even the spell lauch bolt states: "You cast this spell on a crossbow bolt, causing it to fly at a target of your choice as if you had fired it from a light crossbow, using a ranged attack roll."

So, by RAW, it doesn't matter if your arrow/bolt is the size of a coin or a house, as long as it was fired from a longbow/light crossbow it will do 1d8 damage. Am I missing something here? Did anyone else said this before me, was refuted, and now I'm just wasting my and the playground's time?

[Uncle Pine]

IIRC the trick with shrink item is to drop shrinked Colossal balls of stone/steel/osmium on your enemy to deal tons of damage (no save).
Then there's the Eschew Material Launch Bolt trick, which doesn't work because some people (like myself) completely forget to read the "as if you had fired it" line.

[Doc_Maynot]

Thank you! You would not know how many people I've had to mention this to when they try that with Launch Bolt.

[Arael666]

IIRC the trick with shrink item is to drop shrinked Colossal balls of stone/steel/osmium on your enemy to deal tons of damage (no save).
Then there's the Eschew Material Launch Bolt trick, which doesn't work because some people (like myself) completely forget to read the "as if you had fired it" line.

While that is true the trick was also largely used with arrows and bolts, and what struck me was the thought that "the bow does damage, not the arrow". Falling object damage is completely unrelated with what I'm trying to discuss.

[Chronos]

This is why you use shrunken darts, not shrunken arrows. Thrown weapons do damage based on their size when they hit.

[Inevitability]

This is why you use shrunken darts, not shrunken arrows. Thrown weapons do damage based on their size when they hit.

Wouldn't shrunken javelins be better?

[Heliomance]

Even the spell lauch bolt states: "You cast this spell on a crossbow bolt, causing it to fly at a target of your choice as if you had fired it from a light crossbow, using a ranged attack roll."

So, by RAW, it doesn't matter if your arrow/bolt is the size of a coin or a house, as long as it was fired from a longbow/light crossbow it will do 1d8 damage. Am I missing something here? Did anyone else said this before me, was refuted, and now I'm just wasting my and the playground's time?

As far as Launch Bolt goes, I don't see anything in there stating that it's a medium light crossbow. A light crossbow sized appropriately for the projectile it's firing is an entirely valid reading.

[Urpriest]

As far as Launch Bolt goes, I don't see anything in there stating that it's a medium light crossbow. A light crossbow sized appropriately for the projectile it's firing is an entirely valid reading.

It doesn't say that either. Technically, it should be read as "a light crossbow of an unspecified size that will be specified in the errata document."

[Arael666]

As far as Launch Bolt goes, I don't see anything in there stating that it's a medium light crossbow. A light crossbow sized appropriately for the projectile it's firing is an entirely valid reading.


It doesn't say that either. Technically, it should be read as "a light crossbow of an unspecified size that will be specified in the errata document."

Actualy, the only valid reading I see is "a medium light crossbow sized apropriately to the caster". I know the designers were thinking "medium size light crossbow" but that reading just makes more sence.

Anyway, since no one seems to be willing to discuss the topic that was raised in the original post, am I right to assume my reading is correct? The damage is linked to the size of the bow/crossbow not arrow/bolt.

[Malak'ai]

That's how I'd rule it if it came up in my game.

[Heliomance]

Actualy, the only valid reading I see is "a medium light crossbow sized apropriately to the caster". I know the designers were thinking "medium size light crossbow" but that reading just makes more sence.

Anyway, since no one seems to be willing to discuss the topic that was raised in the original post, am I right to assume my reading is correct? The damage is linked to the size of the bow/crossbow not arrow/bolt.

"medium light crossbow" and "sized appropriately to the caster" are mutually exclusive in the event where the caster is not medium.

[Arael666]

"medium light crossbow" and "sized appropriately to the caster" are mutually exclusive in the event where the caster is not medium.

Exactly, what I meant is that the designers were thinking that whoever uses the spell will lauch the bolt as if a medium sized light crossbow fired it. But to me, the more appropriate reading would link the spell to the size of the caster (since no specific size was mentioned), thus a large caster would have the bolt lauched as if a large ligh crossbow fired it.

Sorry if my earlier statement was confusing, English is not my first languadge, I usualy write as I think.

[Chronos]

Javelins would be better than darts, except that a colossal-scale javelin is likely to be too big for Shrink Item.

[Urpriest]

Anyway, since no one seems to be willing to discuss the topic that was raised in the original post, am I right to assume my reading is correct? The damage is linked to the size of the bow/crossbow not arrow/bolt.

Your reading is correct, but as I mentioned it makes the Launch Bolt spell completely unusable, since the properties of the Light Crossbow in question are never specified. "What the designers probably intended" is meaningless here: the designers were grown men and women who had played D&D before, they knew that weapons come in multiple sizes.

[georgie_leech]

Your reading is correct, but as I mentioned it makes the Launch Bolt spell completely unusable, since the properties of the Light Crossbow in question are never specified. "What the designers probably intended" is meaningless here: the designers were grown men and women who had played D&D before, they knew that weapons come in multiple sizes.

Grown men and women just as capable as anyone at not realising the assumptions they were making. At least it's a problem that's easily patched by the DM.

[Uncle Pine]

Exactly, what I meant is that the designers were thinking that whoever uses the spell will lauch the bolt as if a medium sized light crossbow fired it. But to me, the more appropriate reading would link the spell to the size of the caster (since no specific size was mentioned), thus a large caster would have the bolt lauched as if a large ligh crossbow fired it.
Actually that isn't what RAW says either. What RAW says is that when you cast Launch Bolt you launch whatever bolt you are using as a material component as if you were firing it with a light crossbow. This means that if you're a Medium caster holding a Large bolt you'll fire a Large bolt with a -2 penalty to hit (because it's an inappropriately sized weapon) and it'll deal damage as a Large bolt. A Large caster with the same bolt would deal the same amount of damage but wouldn't incur in any penalty. Again, a Huge caster could launch the Large bolt (although with a -2 penalty to hit).

[atemu1234]

So we've got people suggesting firing colossal arrows at teeny tiny widdle medium characters. Sounds like my kind of party.

[torrasque666]

Actually that isn't what RAW says either. What RAW says is that when you cast Launch Bolt you launch whatever bolt you are using as a material component as if you were firing it with a light crossbow. This means that if you're a Medium caster holding a Large bolt you'll fire a Large bolt with a -2 penalty to hit (because it's an inappropriately sized weapon) and it'll deal damage as a Large bolt. A Large caster with the same bolt would deal the same amount of damage but wouldn't incur in any penalty. Again, a Huge caster could launch the Large bolt (although with a -2 penalty to hit).

Except that you'll note that bolts themselves deal no damage. the damage is supplied by the firing device(in this case, a crossbow) Look on the appropriate tables in the books. Bolts/Arrows all lack a damage entry. Thus, their only purpose is to limit the archer. Making it a good idea, and apparently a commonly implemented one, to just ignore ammunition.

[Uncle Pine]

Except that you'll note that bolts themselves deal no damage. the damage is supplied by the firing device(in this case, a crossbow) Look on the appropriate tables in the books. Bolts/Arrows all lack a damage entry. Thus, their only purpose is to limit the archer. Making it a good idea, and apparently a commonly implemented one, to just ignore ammunition.
By your interpretation it seems that Launch Bolt would never do damage. You also imply that a character should always use appropriately sized weapons, when there are rules in the very PHB to do differently. Instead, since you fire a Medium bolt with a Medium crossbow and a Large bolt with a Large crossbow, if you use a Large bolt as a material component for Launch Bolt you deal damage as if you had fired it from a Large light crossbow (with the appropriate penalty for using an inappropriately sized weapon, if necessary).