Bucklers and bows

[Draak_Grafula]

From the SRD:

__________________________________________________ _________________
Buckler
This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll) while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.

__________________________________________________ _________________


I can't figure out wether you keep or lose the AC bonus from your buckler when you're using a bow in that round.

Anyone? thanks

[daggaz]

I would say they make a clear point of differentiating between bows and other weapons, here. So the AC penalty applies to other weapons, not bows.

[Neo]

yeah, it only applies to off-hand weapons when wielding with that shield arm. If you have a picky DM then just put it on whichever arm holds the bow, leaving the pulling arm free.

[Ryuuk]

In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.

I always thought that that line made it clear that if your arm was involved in the attack you lost the shield bonus to AC for that round. Both your hands are used, either holding the bow are pulling it back. Since they´re busy doing that, then you can´t really use them to defend yourself with the buckler.
This is just the way I´ve seen it though.

[Little_Rudo]

You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it.

This line here is what makes me think that you get the buckler's AC while using a bow, even if a bow does require you to use your off-hand. I mean, it seems like this sentence is pointing out that bows and crossbows are exceptions to that.

[Clementx]

Look at Bows. See how they are two-handed? That means you need to use two hands to use them. You lose the buckler's AC (which is not the penalty they are talking about in the first line- they are referring to the attack penalty, surprise surprise). It is still worth it to carry a buckler as an archer, even before getting Improved Buckler Defense, since its free AC in the rounds you don't make a shot.

[the_tick_rules]

i say it would. Holding the bow steady would prevent you from being able to block with it. But that's why the made the feat improved buckler defense. the attack penalties stay but you keep the AC if you use that hand.

[Draak_Grafula]

yeah, it only applies to off-hand weapons when wielding with that shield arm. If you have a picky DM then just put it on whichever arm holds the bow, leaving the pulling arm free.

lol, I think the picky DM would be me in this case. :smalltongue: I'm making NPCs and was wondering if there might be alear explanation. :) I had considered most off the arguments made above and I'm gonna go with you losing the AC bonus when using a bow. It seems most logical to me. Unless someone here comes with a clear piece of RAW that convinces me otherwise.

Thanks for responding everyone.

[Inigo_Carmine]

In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.

I always thought that that line made it clear that if your arm was involved in the attack you lost the shield bonus to AC for that round. Both your hands are used, either holding the bow are pulling it back. Since they´re busy doing that, then you can´t really use them to defend yourself with the buckler.
This is just the way I´ve seen it though.

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner.



Originally Posted by SRD
You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it.
This line here is what makes me think that you get the buckler's AC while using a bow, even if a bow does require you to use your off-hand. I mean, it seems like this sentence is pointing out that bows and crossbows are exceptions to that.



Remember that the difference between a bonus and a penalty are distinct in D&D. Not getting a bonus (the armor bonus) is in no way, shape or form related to a penalty. It is just the lack of a bonus.

[Desaril]

Rules interpretation is so difficult with d20, because the designers often put partially contradictory statements in a single paragraph without much explanation.

The rule says you can wield the bow without penalty, but then explains about penalties for other weapons. It then jumps to the rules regarding the AC bonus. It's confusing.

It would be simpler if they put the general rule: You cannot use a weapon with the arm/hand using a shield. You can use a weapon in the same hand/arm which bears a buckler. If you do so, you suffer a -1 penalty to attack rolls. Bows and crossbows are an exception and you do not suffer that penalty to attacks. In any case, if you use your buckler hand to assist in an attack, you lose the AC bonus for the rest of the round.

I think the key phrase is the "in any case". I think that negates the apparent exception for bows (although I don't think the exception applied to the AC bonus anyway).

[El Jaspero, the Pirate King]

From the SRD:
You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it.

Actually the crucial word for me there is "carrying", as opposed to "using". In my mind they're saying "you don't have to take the buckler off to wield one of these ranged weapons", not "you can use a buckler to defend yourself while wielding one of these ranged weapons".

I'd always applied the -1 to hit only with melee weapons, but having reread the text I clearly got that wrong. Well, sucks to be my players.

[Clementx]

Considering, "wearing" is all you need to use a shield, your revelation makes no sense. You lose the AC bonus, you don't take a penalty to hit with bows.

[Matthew]

Hmmn. I would have to agree Ryuuk here. Using a Bow or Cross Bow in two hands would result in the loss of its AC Bonus.

[nooblade]

If its magical do you keep the magic bonus? That could be beneficial for wielding a two handed weapon, regardless of the penalty. But with a bow there wouldn't be any drawbacks (teehee).

[Clementx]

You lose all the AC, not just the base. Alternate enchantments still work.

[Draak_Grafula]

Whats odd though is this. You can not actively defend yourself with shields while using that arm for an attack. Thats reasonable. But when you are flatfooted, you do not lose your shield bonus to AC.

I know I'm being picky here and I won't change anything in my game now i've discovered this inconsistency. But it's still odd when you think about it.

[AriesOmega]

I rule that if you are firing a bow with a buckler you do not cash in on the ac bonus. Same with crossbow unless you are firing one handed...in that case you keep your ac.

Does this make sense to you all?

[Arbitrarity]

Take improved buckler defense, from CWar. Otherwise, I'd say you lose it.