DMG and Scrolls

[Glarnog]

Are there rules for PCs making them? Or buying them? Is there a formula, even if it's a rules variant? I'm mainly interested in wizards spells of 1st to 3rd.
Thanks

[pwykersotz]

I too am very keen to know this.

[MaxWilson]

Are there rules for PCs making them? Or buying them? Is there a formula, even if it's a rules variant? I'm mainly interested in wizards spells of 1st to 3rd.
Thanks

There are rules but they are underpowered. Scrolls count as magic items with a rarity and a DC governed by their spell level. I'm AFB but I know that a 9th level spell scroll is Legendary, and therefore costs 500,000 gp and 54 years to create. 1st and 2nd level spells are probably more feasible (probably 2 days per scroll and 50 gp) but still pretty bad compared to anything permanent.

You're better off creating your own rules for scribing spells.

[Glarnog]

Thanks. I'll ask the DM.

I was more interested in adding spells to my Wiz's spellbook to help make up for the lack of spellbooks as loot.

Though always having a few differnt scrolls for specfic problems is the second reason.

[odigity]

There are rules but they are underpowered. Scrolls count as magic items with a rarity and a DC governed by their spell level. I'm AFB but I know that a 9th level spell scroll is Legendary, and therefore costs 500,000 gp and 54 years to create. 1st and 2nd level spells are probably more feasible (probably 2 days per scroll and 50 gp) but still pretty bad compared to anything permanent.

You're better off creating your own rules for scribing spells.

What. The. Frell.

[pwykersotz]

What. The. Frell.

I'm a fan of these guidelines, at least compared to 3.5. I'd rather the game be balanced away from spell supplements but still allow them if needed. Scrolls of Wish and True Polymorph being trivial for a low level party to obtain always annoyed me.

It might be too far in the opposite direction, but that remains to be seen.

[Daishain]

I'm a fan of these guidelines, at least compared to 3.5. I'd rather the game be balanced away from spell supplements but still allow them if needed. Scrolls of Wish and True Polymorph being trivial for a low level party to obtain always annoyed me.

It might be too far in the opposite direction, but that remains to be seen.
54 years to make a single use item...

During that time period, the maker could have cast the spell in question (since the crafter must be able to cast it to make the scroll in the first place) 19,710 times, and certainly has a million or so much more productive things to do with their time and energy. Who the flipping hell would ever bother?

I can see that kind of effort being put into something truly legendary, an artifact of incredible power intended to safeguard a kingdom for generations to come, but a bloody scroll?

I agree that magic items should not be as trivially common as they were in 3.x, but this is ridiculous.

[Oscredwin]

Wouldn't a scroll of wish allow you to cast wish without the risk of burning out? I could see elven wizards (or lich wizards, or other long lived types) with either very long term goals or no specific plans making a couple of these just in case.

[TripleD]

Who the flipping hell would ever bother?


Munchkin Answer?

Elf spends 540 years creating 10 wish/power word kill/etc scrolls.
Casts "Wish" to be de-aged of the 540 years.
Barring DM wish-bending, you now have your youth back and 10 free wishes to boot.
Repeat until wish fizzles out.



I can see that kind of effort being put into something truly legendary, an artifact of incredible power intended to safeguard a kingdom for generations to come, but a bloody scroll?


Depends. Are there still ways for lower level, or entirely non-caster, characters to cast high level spells? If so, I can see people going nuts over a scroll like this in a world where even mid-level casters are supposed to be a rarity.

[MaxWilson]

I can see that kind of effort being put into something truly legendary, an artifact of incredible power intended to safeguard a kingdom for generations to come, but a ------ scroll?

It gets worse. Forging a Wand of Web and a Scroll of Web take exactly the same time by RAW and have the same cost--they're both Uncommon items. But the scroll is usable only once, and the wand is usable up to 7 times per day and recharges (1d6+1/day I think). The scroll has the minor advantage that you can scribe it into your spellbook, and doesn't require attunement, but I don't think that is good enough to make up for the fact that the wand gives you infinity more uses.


Elf spends 540 years creating 10 wish/power word kill/etc scrolls.
Casts "Wish" to be de-aged of the 540 years.
Barring DM wish-bending, you now have your youth back and 10 free wishes to boot.
Repeat until wish fizzles out.

Those 10 "free" wishes cost you 5,000,000 gp. On the other hand, you can use Wish to create a younger Clone (8th level) of yourself without needing to use a variant Wish. On the gripping hand, aging 540 years is less problematic and more reversible than missing out on 540 years of history/adventure/etc. This plan is basically a way to exit the campaign permanently. (Barring Sphinx lair tricks of course.)

[archaeo]

During that time period, the maker could have cast the spell in question (since the crafter must be able to cast it to make the scroll in the first place) 19,710 times, and certainly has a million or so much more productive things to do with their time and energy. Who the flipping hell would ever bother?

I can see that kind of effort being put into something truly legendary, an artifact of incredible power intended to safeguard a kingdom for generations to come, but a bloody scroll?

Admittedly, this is a gamist solution to the crafting problem, and it leads to some wacky stuff like this, but 50+ years is just a portion of the life of a long-lived race.

I'd also have no problem with a setting in which large groups of casters in the distant past collaborated on incredibly powerful scrolls and whatnot.

Or a setting in which creating magical items is possible for PCs, who are mainly trained as adventurers, but is extremely difficult, whereas people who have trained their entire lives as magical scribes or crafters can accomplish the same feats much more efficiently.

I mean, which is all to say that you can find narrative justifications for this mechanic without too much trouble.


It gets worse. Forging a Wand of Web and a Scroll of Web take exactly the same time by RAW and have the same cost--they're both Uncommon items. But the scroll is usable only once, and the wand is usable up to 7 times per day and recharges (1d6+1/day I think). The scroll has the minor advantage that you can scribe it into your spellbook, and doesn't require attunement, but I don't think that is good enough to make up for the fact that the wand gives you infinity more uses.

My emphasis. This is not exactly a "minor advantage." Consider it instead as a one-time copying mechanism sent forward into the future, which is an interesting plot device if used properly.


Those 10 "free" wishes cost you 5,000,000 gp. On the other hand, you can use Wish to create a younger Clone (8th level) of yourself without needing to use a variant Wish. On the gripping hand, aging 540 years is less problematic and more reversible than missing out on 540 years of history/adventure/etc. This plan is basically a way to exit the campaign permanently. (Barring Sphinx lair tricks of course.)

I think, given the price of goods we know about, somebody with 5 million gold probably can afford to take a trip to find a sphinx and get some time travel on.

[MaxWilson]

My emphasis. This is not exactly a "minor advantage." Consider it instead as a one-time copying mechanism sent forward into the future, which is an interesting plot device if used properly.

Think about the scenario. Scribing is only a very minor advantage from the crafter's perspective. Consider that if you are creating a scroll with the intent to allow others to copy it, you could simply create a copy (bypassing scrolls altogether), which would save you 400 gp and 20 days of effort, and has no chance of failure on the part of the person doing the copying. Basically, you never want to reverse-engineer spells from scrolls if you can possibly help it, and therefore you will never scribe scrolls with the intent of having them reverse-engineered instead of cast.

Wand of Web is a flatly superior use of your crafting time to Scroll of Web. QED.

[mr_odd]

I don't think that 5e wants players to be making anything magical, and I am okay with this. Scrolls, wands, etc. should be handed out as loot in my opinion, or able to buy in low level spells. If a player really wants to play a character who specializes in making something magical, then I will work with that player to come up with something satisfying. Otherwise, they'll only find Scrolls or wands as loot or low level ones in shops.

[archaeo]

Think about the scenario. Scribing is only a very minor advantage from the crafter's perspective. Consider that if you are creating a scroll with the intent to allow others to copy it, you could simply create a copy (bypassing scrolls altogether), which would save you 400 gp and 20 days of effort, and has no chance of failure on the part of the person doing the copying. Basically, you never want to reverse-engineer spells from scrolls if you can possibly help it, and therefore you will never scribe scrolls with the intent of having them reverse-engineered instead of cast.

Wand of Web is a flatly superior use of your crafting time to Scroll of Web. QED.

In a setting in which casters jealously guard their secrets, I could see the casters preferring to create copies that can only be used once while keeping their spellbooks absurdly close/well-guarded.

I could also see these casters preferring to avoid creating wands, especially in civilizations where the casters don't want the common people rising up against them. A scroll is a good way to share a bit of power with your minions without giving it to them wholesale.

Admittedly, however, this is all just narrative justification for the crafting rules, which seem designed mostly to be pretty simplistic and non-granular.

[MaxWilson]

In a setting in which casters jealously guard their secrets, I could see the casters preferring to create copies that can only be used once while keeping their spellbooks absurdly close/well-guarded.

You're undermining your own argument here. If you want to guard your secrets, a wand is better than a scroll because it can't be copied, as opposed to requiring an Arcana check to copy (like a scroll) or being freely copyable (like a spellbook).

There just isn't any non-ridiculous scenario where you want to scribe a Scroll of Web, unless you don't have the formula for Wand of Web. (Ob DavidWeber: Same way that you never want to create a matchlock musket when you have the technology for flintlock rifles.)

[Mellack]

In a setting in which casters jealously guard their secrets, I could see the casters preferring to create copies that can only be used once while keeping their spellbooks absurdly close/well-guarded.

I could also see these casters preferring to avoid creating wands, especially in civilizations where the casters don't want the common people rising up against them. A scroll is a good way to share a bit of power with your minions without giving it to them wholesale.

Admittedly, however, this is all just narrative justification for the crafting rules, which seem designed mostly to be pretty simplistic and non-granular.

If the goal is for it to be copied, it is not just once. It either doesn't work at all (they fail the check), or they copy it and now have something that they can copy infinitely. So as long as the first person can copy it successfully, they can share it with all of their friends. A wand would only be useable by a single person.

[archaeo]

You're undermining your own argument here. If you want to guard your secrets, a wand is better than a scroll because it can't be copied, as opposed to requiring an Arcana check to copy (like a scroll) or being freely copyable (like a spellbook).

There just isn't any non-ridiculous scenario where you want to scribe a Scroll of Web, unless you don't have the formula for Wand of Web. (Ob DavidWeber: Same way that you never want to create a matchlock musket when you have the technology for flintlock rifles.)

Presumably, you might need to pass on spells to other spellcasters so that they themselves can use them, rather than just providing a "black box" of a wand. It costs just as much to make that wand of web, but it's still a limited magical item; it can run out of charges, it can be stolen or sundered, etc. A scroll will pass on the complete knowledge of the spell exactly one time. It will also only allow a sufficiently intelligent caster to copy the spell.

That said, I realize the limit of the argument, guys; it's a handwave, a pretty feeble way of justifying some pretty explicitly gamist design. They wanted a simple system to organize magic items and an equally simple system for adjudicating how they can be crafted. The default assumptions here work fine, as long as you don't try to puzzle over it too much.

The better narrative handwave to make is that crafting magic items is something you can only do efficiently if it's your actual career, and not something you do in between hunting dragons or whatever. But I kind of like the idea of spell scrolls serving as a "secure" way of transmitting magical knowledge; I might make it part of my campaign!

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The better narrative handwave to make is that crafting magic items is something you can only do efficiently if it's your actual career, and not something you do in between hunting dragons or whatever. But I kind of like the idea of spell scrolls serving as a "secure" way of transmitting magical knowledge; I might make it part of my campaign!


And this is what I love about the rules and how I prefer my games. Just cause you have magic doesn't mean you know how to make items just as an artisan may be able to craft an item but can't put magic into it.

Way to many people think that just because it's magic means its ok for it to do everything.

[Negflar2099]

There are rules but they are underpowered. Scrolls count as magic items with a rarity and a DC governed by their spell level. I'm AFB but I know that a 9th level spell scroll is Legendary, and therefore costs 500,000 gp and 54 years to create. 1st and 2nd level spells are probably more feasible (probably 2 days per scroll and 50 gp) but still pretty bad compared to anything permanent.

You're better off creating your own rules for scribing spells.

My reading of it seems to indicate that one time magical items cost half as much, so it would only take about 27 years to make that 9th level scroll. Others can help too so if 6, 17th level, characters helped it would only take about 4.5 years. Okay that isn't all that much better but I think scrolls weren't meant to be used for 9th level spells. A 5th level scroll is only 2500gp, or about 100 days for a single character by themselves and about a month for a group of 3 (only one of which needs to able to cast the actual spell, the others just need to meet the level requirement). If I'm reading that right then that's much more reasonable.

[MaxWilson]

My reading of it seems to indicate that one time magical items cost half as much, so it would only take about 27 years to make that 9th level scroll. Others can help too so if 6, 17th level, characters helped it would only take about 4.5 years. Okay that isn't all that much better but I think scrolls weren't meant to be used for 9th level spells. A 5th level scroll is only 2500gp, or about 100 days for a single character by themselves and about a month for a group of 3 (only one of which needs to able to cast the actual spell, the others just need to meet the level requirement). If I'm reading that right then that's much more reasonable.

If I missed a clause in the DMG, it wouldn't be the first time in 5E that I did so. Can you quote the relevant passage?

[Negflar2099]

If I missed a clause in the DMG, it wouldn't be the first time in 5E that I did so. Can you quote the relevant passage?

Okay so in rereading it closer it doesn't specifically say that consumables are half price with regards to creating them. However on page 135 (under Rarity) it says that "The value of a consumable item, such as a potion or scroll, is typically half the value of a permanent item of the same rarity."

If you look at the values in that table they more or less match up with the values of the table given under item creation. While this doesn't exactly say that consumables should be easier to build (as with all things in 5e it's very DM determined) it does point to that idea. In other words if they cost half as much to sell then they should cost half as much to create.

The rest is covered under item creation.

[Dalebert]

Any guidelines on how difficult it is to find a wizard who will let you copy spells, and if so, at what prices? Some class features are affected by the availability of spells. Wizards and their spellbooks are the obvious case but I chose tome warlock for my first character on the assumption I'd be able to get new rituals in a fairly straight-forward manner. That was before the DMG came out. I suppose the 1st and 2nd level ones shouldn't be too difficult to find but I wonder about the higher level ones.

[goldenfoxx]

You could make it that scrolls dont require formula, or that the spell itself is the formula.... finding a formula for a Wand of Web sounds tough .. while the spell is in your spell book.