New Rogue Archetype: The Thug

[Human Paragon 3]

There's no good archetype for your standard-issue thug yet, so I homebrewed this. I'm a little worried it's not strong enough.



Rogue Archetype: Thug

Dirty Fighter

When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain the ability to sneak attack with any weapon you are proficient with, even those without the finesse or ranged property.

Intimidating Presence

Starting at 3rd level, you become more intimidating to people around you. You have advantage on Cha (Intimidation) checks made against unarmed opponents.

Extortion

Starting at 9th level, you are able to force people into giving you what you want. If you successfully use the intimidation skill against a creature that can see you, you can treat that creature as indifferent if it was hostile and friendly if it was indifferent. (Your DM will adjudicate what these attitudes mean.) For the next minute, you and your allies have advantage on persuasion checks made against that creature. After a minute has passed, the creature realizes it was coerced and becomes hostile toward you. Some individuals may try to seek revenge.


No Holds Barred

By 13th level, you have mastered the technique of causing pain with no remorse. You deal an extra die of weapon damage whenever you hit a creature that is blinded, prone, incapacitated, or frightened.

Armor of Doubt

When you reach 17th level, as long as you have not taken damage in combat, enemies have disadvantage on attack rolls made against you. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.

[MadBear]

I like it. It seems like a great attempt at creating your stereotypical thug rogue.

At first I thought the 3rd level ability was underpowered, but it's true advantage is hidden in the ability to wield any non-finesse weapon for sneak attack.

[bloodshed343]

Instead of all weapons, it should just be the great club. I'd suggest another feature in place of Armor of Doubt, which is incredibly op.

Something like:

"Bigga Beata": Increases greatclub damage die to d10. Maybe later add:

"Put Some Nailz Innit" changes great club damage to pierce and increases the damage die to d12.

[Human Paragon 3]

Instead of all weapons, it should just be the great club. I'd suggest another feature in place of Armor of Doubt, which is incredibly op.

Something like:

"Bigga Beata": Increases greatclub damage die to d10. Maybe later add:

"Put Some Nailz Innit" changes great club damage to pierce and increases the damage die to d12.

Do you really think the 9th level power is OP? If you take damage from any source in combat, it stops working. It also doesn't work on undead, constructs, or any other creature type immune to fear.

[Human Paragon 3]

At first I thought the 3rd level ability was underpowered, but it's true advantage is hidden in the ability to wield any non-finesse weapon for sneak attack.

Including improvised weapons if you have the Tavern Brawler feat.

What did you think the ability did before you realized it allowed you to SA with non-finesse weapons?

[MadBear]

Including improvised weapons if you have the Tavern Brawler feat.

What did you think the ability did before you realized it allowed you to SA with non-finesse weapons?

At first glance, I just thought the 3rd level ability added intimidating presence. (What you wrote was clear, I just skim a bit)

[Regulas]

I might consider adding on medium armor prof. Since you won't be Dex based anymore you are loosing out on AC in exchange for any gain from bigger weapons.

Otherwise I like it. Particularly like how it allows for an "opportunist" type fighter.

[Yagyujubei]

it might be nice to give them some way to disarm enemies so they have better control over the use of the intimidating presence feature as a fun battle tactic.

like you could disarm a guy then intimidate him into surrendering or running away mid battle.

in general though I really like what you have and think the balance is actually quite good.

[Human Paragon 3]

I might consider adding on medium armor prof. Since you won't be Dex based anymore you are loosing out on AC in exchange for any gain from bigger weapons.

I like where your head's at. Do you think it's OK to just toss medium armor on top of everything?

If the archetype doesn't grant medium armor, they'd have to find another way to get it (i.e. through a feat, race, or multiclass choice).

[Selkirk]

i like it ..lots of flavor here. would be cool to incorporate some brawling stuff too...like sucker punch or haymaker (maybe at low levels fist attacks would make sense).

[Human Paragon 3]

i like it ..lots of flavor here. would be cool to incorporate some brawling stuff too...like sucker punch or haymaker (maybe at low levels fist attacks would make sense).

I'd just recommend taking the Tavern Brawler feat. It pairs very well with the archetype.

[Selkirk]

I'd just recommend taking the Tavern Brawler feat. It pairs very well with the archetype.

that does work pretty well :smallcool:...but still there are so many fun things contained within. leg whip , eyepoke , dirt in face ... even biting :D. dragonborn thug could be pretty vicious.

[Regulas]

I like where your head's at. Do you think it's OK to just toss medium armor on top of everything?

If the archetype doesn't grant medium armor, they'd have to find another way to get it (i.e. through a feat, race, or multiclass choice).

I do question the power, and it really depends on the relative power of the weapon usage, though valor bards get it as an addon for them. And there are trad-offs like sneak penalty and having no use for high dex (which further hurts normally roguish things), so you basically just become a type of unique fighter, that is far more my style then any of the other ones.

Also note that as far as power goes the better weapons damage buff doesn't scale since you don't get multiple attacks.

For this archetype I picture the "cunning brute", the character who seems a bit like a thickset brutish fighter, but whom actually relies heavily on cunning and cleverness and knows how to take advantage of his size strength and intimidating nature.

You can try running some math but ultimately would probably have to just try it out.

[bloodshed343]

Do you really think the 9th level power is OP? If you take damage from any source in combat, it stops working. It also doesn't work on undead, constructs, or any other creature type immune to fear.

It works out to about +5 ac against the majority of enemies in the game.

A large selling point of 5e was that low level mooks could still challenge a high level character in numbers. This can give you an effective 25 ac. That's the same as a god. Those cr 1 or 2 nooks will only hit on a nat 20. You, in all likelihood, won't take any damage unless every enemy is focusing on you. If you have any sort of Frontline tank soaking up hits or use your roguish talents to disengage, then it's likely you'll never take damage at all.

Also, thugs don't use halberds. Give them sneak attack with great clubs and improvised weapons.

Maybe add extra attack as a 9th level feature.

[Regulas]

It works out to about +5 ac against the majority of enemies in the game.

A large selling point of 5e was that low level mooks could still challenge a high level character in numbers. This can give you an effective 25 ac. That's the same as a god. Those cr 1 or 2 nooks will only hit on a nat 20. You, in all likelihood, won't take any damage unless every enemy is focusing on you. If you have any sort of Frontline tank soaking up hits or use your roguish talents to disengage, then it's likely you'll never take damage at all.

Also, thugs don't use halberds. Give them sneak attack with great clubs and improvised weapons.

Maybe add extra attack as a 9th level feature.

What is your thing with clubs? It's just odd.

Also for the bonus to AC, that's as much up to the DM as anything. As soon as he takes any damage at all he looses it's benefit so it's only really OP if the DM avoids getting around it.

You could always make it so it instead of being until he takes damage make them take a cha (intimidate) save or else they have disadvantage. Save on every attack until they succeed one.

[Yagyujubei]

I know right? and aside from the clubs i can't take anyone who says/writes the words "Bigga Beata" and "Put Some Nailz Innit" seriously

[bloodshed343]

I'm of the opinion that I should never be taken seriously.

Also, all thugs are orks.

[EvilAnagram]

Flavor-wise, what does this accomplish that a STR-Thief or a Champion with a Criminal background does not?

[Regulas]

Flavor-wise, what does this accomplish that a STR-Thief or a Champion with a Criminal background does not?

Flavour wise what can be accomplished by a rogue, barbarian, paladin, or Hunter-Ranger that a fighter cannot? Why are there multiple Arcane classes? Why are there clerics AND druids?

These kinds of subclasses are about the flavour of the mechanics moreso then pure flavour by itself. So the point here would be to be an opportunistic fighter rather then a flurry of attacks.

In that vein I was thinking for intimidate power at lvl 3: What about instead if when you attack you can make an intimidate check as a bonus action, if you succeed that specific attack gains advantage, but if you fail the target can't be affected again that day.

[Tarvil]

Flavor-wise, what does this accomplish that a STR-Thief or a Champion with a Criminal background does not?

I agree with this. But rather, I would choose Battlemaster with Criminal background. You can sneak, you have easy access to Intimidation skill, you have some maneuvers which can be reflavoured to dirty fighting and can be extremely useful for team rogue in thematic party (for example, extra attack for him).

For me, It perfectly fit that "Thug" should be. No need to homebrew here.

[Gwendol]

I would limit the thug weapon proficiency. I see no reason for them to run around with polearms, for example. Simple weapons should be enough IMO (morningstar, for example).

Instead of the armor of doubt ability, I'd like to see something triggering off of sneak attack, like forcing a condition. Knee-cap busting or hamstring-cutting for example, halving the opponent speed.

[Regulas]

I would limit the thug weapon proficiency. I see no reason for them to run around with polearms, for example. Simple weapons should be enough IMO (morningstar, for example).

Instead of the armor of doubt ability, I'd like to see something triggering off of sneak attack, like forcing a condition. Knee-cap busting or hamstring-cutting for example, halving the opponent speed.

You are forgetting that they havn't gained any weapon profeciencies beyond a normal rogue.

[Gwendol]

Right, got side tracked by the ensuing discussion.

[EvilAnagram]

Flavour wise what can be accomplished by a rogue, barbarian, paladin, or Hunter-Ranger that a fighter cannot? Why are there multiple Arcane classes? Why are there clerics AND druids?
This is not really a good point at all. Rogues, Barbarians, Paladins, and Rangers all have distinct flavors from a fighter (Finesse-based skill monkey and opportunistic combatant, primal warrior who flies into uncontrollable rages, knight who draws on divine power to fuel his magic, warrior with strong ties to nature). Clerics derive their powers from gods, Druids from nature. The different arcane classes all have different sources and play quite differently.

The Thug is a big, tough criminal. A STR-based Thief fits that role. A Fighter with a Criminal background fits that role.

[Regulas]

This is not really a good point at all. Rogues, Barbarians, Paladins, and Rangers all have distinct flavors from a fighter (Finesse-based skill monkey and opportunistic combatant, primal warrior who flies into uncontrollable rages, knight who draws on divine power to fuel his magic, warrior with strong ties to nature). Clerics derive their powers from gods, Druids from nature. The different arcane classes all have different sources and play quite differently.

The Thug is a big, tough criminal. A STR-based Thief fits that role. A Fighter with a Criminal background fits that role.

A Thug is an intimidating opportunistic fighter. All of the thief abilities are pretty much wasted meaning that subtype has no purpose since a thug is not focused on dex which is the thiefs speciality. You could just say STR based rogue, but since there is no real sub-type for it hence this build.

A criminal background adds some of the flavour but doesn't get the intimidation benefits, infact a barbarian berserker with criminal background would be closer since it does get an intimidation like ability.

[Quarterling]

the class is amazing idea IMO but I think it should have a different name than thug, maybe brute or something of the like. Thug just sounds more like part of the criminal background than an actual class. If you could figure out a different name I'd be down

[Human Paragon 3]

I suppose it could be a fighter's subclass, too. Just replace the first ability with a sneak attack die or something. Or maybe the ability to grant advantage to an ally within 5 feet as a bonus action.

[bloodshed343]

And thugs use clubs. It's what they do. And I agree with removing Armor of Doubt in favor of "Knock 'em Down" allowing you to prone an enemy when you get your sneak attack. With a bonus action intimidate check to keep them from standing up next turn.

[bloodshed343]

Then add an ability that gives you bonus damage to prone opponents. 1/2/3 extra sneak attack die.

[Human Paragon 3]

Why can't a thug use a sword? Or an axe? Or a war hammer? Are rogues even proficient in greatclub?

[bloodshed343]

It's an intimidation thing. Breaking kneecaps and all that. Any big beatstick would work, that's why I suggest improvised weapons and clubs. War hammers could work too. Rogues should be proficient with great clubs since it's a simple weapon.

[Triclinium]

It's an intimidation thing. Breaking kneecaps and all that. Any big beatstick would work, that's why I suggest improvised weapons and clubs. War hammers could work too. Rogues should be proficient with great clubs since it's a simple weapon.

I fail to see how every bladed weapon is somehow less intimidating than any blunt weapon. TBH I find blades way scarier than clubs and the like.

[bloodshed343]

I fail to see how every bladed weapon is somehow less intimidating than any blunt weapon. TBH I find blades way scarier than clubs and the like.

Swords are noble. They're the weapon of knights and soldiers. They require training. You can't teach someone a lesson with a sword because you'd just kill the guy.

A thug is not noble. A thug is not trained. A thug is a strong-arm, not a soldier. A thug would rather get a message through than leave a corpse, but can kill when they need to. That's why thugs use clubs.

Edit: clubs are also concealable as walking sticks, which is good for a criminal. Swords are not concealable.

[Triclinium]

Swords are noble. They're the weapon of knights and soldiers. They require training. You can't teach someone a lesson with a sword because you'd just kill the guy.

A thug is not noble. A thug is not trained. A thug would rather get a message through than leave a corpse. That's why thugs use clubs.

No. It may be easier to kill someone with a sword than with a club, but it's far from certain. And even if that were true, that makes swords far more intimidating. Most people are more scared of being dead than being hurt.

Swords aren't noble. They are sharpened pieces of metal, exclusively designed for the purpose of harming other beings.

[bloodshed343]

Fine, maybe a fighter turned bandit might use a sword, but the street thug uses a club because it's easier to get, easier to use, easier to replace if they get nicked, and more than suitable. A better way to have a fighter turned bandit is a battle master with the criminal background. Thugs use clubs.

[Human Paragon 3]

Fine, maybe a fighter turned bandit might use a sword, but the street thug uses a club because it's easier to get, easier to use, easier to replace if they get nicked, and more than suitable. A better way to have a fighter turned bandit is a battle master with the criminal background. Thugs use clubs.

Please stop talking about clubs. Thugs use the best weapons they can get their hands on, especially ones that are highly paid adventurers.

[Triclinium]

Fine, maybe a fighter turned bandit might use a sword, but the street thug uses a club because it's easier to get, easier to use, easier to replace if they get nicked, and more than suitable. A better way to have a fighter turned bandit is a battle master with the criminal background. Thugs use clubs.

You are welcome to play a thug who uses a club, but claiming that no thug can use a sword? That's just ridiculous. By that logic all assassins use daggers and poison exclusively, and bards don't use any weapons at all because they have instruments. A thug is an archetype that can be filled by many different characters, not all of whom need be members of the National Greatclub Association.

[bloodshed343]

Well, completely separate from the fluff, is the mechanic of rogues taking a one or two level dip in fighter to get polearms. Using sneak attack with polearms is simply the most powerful option for rogues. Not to mention greatsword and great weapon master. It would make the other archetypes obsolete from an optimization stand point.

[Human Paragon 3]

Well, completely separate from the fluff, is the mechanic of rogues taking a one or two level dip in fighter to get polearms. Using sneak attack with polearms is simply the most powerful option for rogues. Not to mention greatsword and great weapon master. It would make the other archetypes obsolete from an optimization stand point.

Can you prove it would be broken? How is a pole arm better than a longbow?

[bloodshed343]

Polearm Master gives you a bonus action attack to make you twice as likely to apply sneak attack without engaging in melee. You could do the same thing dual-wielding whips, but a polearm is strictly better.

Plus, that opportunity attack.

I'm not saying it's broken. I'm saying it's strictly better than any other option. It's like home brewing a new weapon called "bigger greatsword" that is just a greatsword that does 2d8.

If you don't want to limit it to simple weapons, then limit it to martial weapons with the versatile property.

[Human Paragon 3]

Polearm Master gives you a bonus action attack to make you twice as likely to apply sneak attack without engaging in melee. You could do the same thing dual-wielding whips, but a polearm is strictly better.

Plus, that opportunity attack.

I'm not saying it's broken. I'm saying it's strictly better than any other option. It's like home brewing a new weapon called "bigger greatsword" that is just a greatsword that does 2d8.

If you don't want to limit it to simple weapons, then limit it to martial weapons with the versatile property.

I disagree that it is strictly better than any other option. Using a ranged weapon offers better security than a pole arm without spending a feat. Two-weapon fighting offers better damage if you take the feat (using two longswords). Great-weapon fighting offers better damage without the feat and much better damage if you take the power attack feat. You can multi-class as a monk and get a bonus attack with any monk weapon, or three attacks per round using flurry of blows and darts, giving you three sneak attack opportunities instead of two. There are many options which have advantages over pole arm master.

You're also giving up the other thief archetypes for this ability, and fast hands is a great ability. So is the assassin's assassinate ability to auto crit.

You seem to know what "strictly better" means given your bigger greatsword example, but you don't appear to have given this much thought.

[bloodshed343]

Rogues can't use two longswords, great weapon fighting, or polearms without taking the thug Archetype. I forgot about monks, but you'd need a serious dip in monk in order for your martial arts to do more damage than a polearm or a greatsword. At that point, you're playing a monk, not a rogue. And while fast hands and auto-crits are good, neither is as good as armor of doubt.

I think this rogue Archetype is strictly better than the other two when it comes to combat optimization.

[Human Paragon 3]

I made a few changes to the archetype. Here is the new version:


Rogue Archetype: Thug

Dirty Fighter

When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain the ability to sneak attack with any weapon you are proficient with, even those without the finesse or ranged property.

Intimidating Presence

Starting at 3rd level, you become more intimidating to people around you. You have advantage on Cha (Intimidation) checks made against unarmed opponents.

Extortion

Starting at 9th level, you are able to force people into giving you what you want. If you successfully use the intimidation skill against a creature that can see you, you can treat that creature as indifferent if it was hostile and friendly if it was indifferent. (Your DM will adjudicate what these attitudes mean.) For the next minute, you and your allies have advantage on persuasion checks made against that creature. After a minute has passed, the creature realizes it was coerced and becomes hostile toward you. Some individuals may try to seek revenge.


No Holds Barred

By 13th level, you have mastered the technique of causing pain with no remorse. You deal an extra die of weapon damage whenever you hit a creature that is blinded, prone, incapacitated, or frightened.

Armor of Doubt

When you reach 17th level, as long as you have not taken damage in combat, enemies have disadvantage on attack rolls made against you. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.