Tonight something amazing happened

[silveralen]

Tonight, during our weekly game of DnD, something absolutely amazing happened.

Our DM apparently decided to railroad us into being captured by tossing an adult green dragon (cr 15) at a four person party of level 8. To show my annoyance for such heavy handed railroading (and because I was moderately bored with my current character), I refused to back down when offered the chance, fully expecting to die.

Then I discovered something ground breaking, the wonders of bounded accuracy. We drove it away, somehow winning the encounter.

Sure, half the party ended up unconscious, one almost died, we burned all a days worth of abilities in a single encounter, and we got a healthy dose of luck (thank every god in this world or the next for good con saves), but it worked. Even with the DM fudging things slightly in favor of the dragon.

I'm not quite sure what this says about the edition, but actually beating the odds? It feels cool.

Still I'm curious, is this a strength of a weakness of the edition, in people's opinion?

[Darksidebro]

I had a similar experience in that the Group I was DMing (3 3rd level characters) defeated a Young Adult green dragon. The Dragon was meant to Flee and fly away when reduced to 1/2 HP, but the characters were relentless and after many rounds of combat and One Character (Dwarf Paladin/Cleric) clinging to it's back and attacking it's wings as it tried to get away they actually defeated it. I was astonished.

The only Roll I fudged in the whole encounter was giving a Con-Save to the Monk when he would've been instant killed by massive damage from failing the Dex Save against the dragon's poison breath. I just couldn't see the character he'd worked so hard on a backstory for go down like that.

[EvilAnagram]

Cool. As far as I'm concerned, anything that rewards decent tactics and bravery with feeling awesome is a win.

[Iolo Morganwg]

My players, (x5 level seven,) flat out killed an adult white dragon at our Saturday game. Burned through all their abilities, but still, damn impressive!

[MaxWilson]

I'm not quite sure what this says about the edition, but actually beating the odds? It feels cool.

Still I'm curious, is this a strength of a weakness of the edition, in people's opinion?

Definitely a strength. Beating something that outmatches you by a factor of two feels amazing. (It helps that CR is already skewed in the PCs' favor, but that doesn't change how amazing it feels.)

[odigity]

(3 3rd level characters) ... (Dwarf Paladin/Cleric)

He's third level, and he's got levels in both Paladin and Cleric already? So... he needs Str, Con, Wis, Cha, and still would benefit from Dex?

Can you explain this build some more? What order did he take his levels, and what's his plan?

[Valefor Rathan]

Now would be the perfect time for the group to be captured. Exhausted, beat up, bloody, no ready abilities...::Maniacal laugh, maniacal laugh::

But seriously, that sounds awesome. I'm almost always a fan of taking the DM Plot-Express off the rails if it gets heavy handed and taking on a dragon and surviving is the icing on the cake.

[Galen]

I'm not quite sure what this says about the edition, but actually beating the odds? It feels cool.I don't think it specifically says anything about the edition. In 3.5 it's possible for an optimized level 8 party to beat an adult green as well. But good job winning and making your DM sweat!

[silveralen]

I don't think it specifically says anything about the edition. In 3.5 it's possible for an optimized level 8 party to beat an adult green as well. But good job winning and making your DM sweat!

Optimized means very different things for this and 3.5 though. Optimized 3.5, at level 8 at least, would consist of 2-4 classes and ton of feats taken from probably 3+ different splat books. These characters aren't even that optimized by the standards of 5e.

[Rallicus]

For players it's pretty awesome. However as a DM it makes for difficult encounter building.

I think my party's most difficult encounter was an 'easy' CR 1 at level 2. Nearly killed the Warlock.

Their recent 'boss' fight, which was a homebrew werewolf that could conceivably be considered a CR 4 encounter, was so one sided it almost hurt. They were all level 3.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan (since I'm a DM). It seems to favor mobs over single encounters as well. On my tablet atm, so I don't know for sure, but I think an underleveled encounter with several wrymlings could have potentially caused more of a challenge.

[Nargrakhan]

Optimized means very different things for this and 3.5 though. Optimized 3.5, at level 8 at least, would consist of 2-4 classes and ton of feats taken from probably 3+ different splat books. These characters aren't even that optimized by the standards of 5e.

+1

Not needing total system mastery and a PHD in game theory and mathematics to make heroes that actually feel heroic, is pretty damn awesome.

[TripleD]

Personally, I'm not a huge fan (since I'm a DM). It seems to favor mobs over single encounters as well.

That's what Legendary actions are for, to make lone boss fights more challenging by giving the enemy a bigger chunk of the action economy.

Granted, they were woefully underused I'm the MM. Seriously, I still can't believe Pit Fiends and Balors got nothing.

[Jlooney]

That's what Legendary actions are for, to make lone boss fights more challenging by giving the enemy a bigger chunk of the action economy.

Granted, they were woefully underused I'm the MM. Seriously, I still can't believe Pit Fiends and Balors got nothing.

What about all the lower level demons they command?

[Nargrakhan]

Not all that big a deal anymore. I mean a vampire can have an infinite number of spawn... and have legendary actions to boot.

Honestly though, there's nothing that doesn't stop a DM from giving a Pit Fiend or Balor legendary actions. There's enough examples scattered throughout the MM to just pick and choose a set.

In the reverse, not creatures that have "official" legendary actions might actually have them. You could make a "second-tier" vampire using the stats without legendary actions... sorta like vampire brides who lead the spawns, but are not the actual Vampire Master himself.

[Talderas]

Personally, I'm not a huge fan (since I'm a DM). It seems to favor mobs over single encounters as well.

Action economy is a real thing. It's what makes single monsters less threatening.

[Envyus]

Like I made a legendary Pit Fiend as boss in my game. All was need was giving him some legendary resist and a few legendary actions.

(Mine were 60 ft teleport, Tail attack, and 2 actions cast fireball.) These coupled with the Devil Summoning Variant rule gaving him 6 Bearded Devils for support made for a really good and challenging boss fight.

[Longcat]

I had a similar experience in that the Group I was DMing (3 3rd level characters) defeated a Young Adult green dragon. The Dragon was meant to Flee and fly away when reduced to 1/2 HP, but the characters were relentless and after many rounds of combat and One Character (Dwarf Paladin/Cleric) clinging to it's back and attacking it's wings as it tried to get away they actually defeated it. I was astonished.

The only Roll I fudged in the whole encounter was giving a Con-Save to the Monk when he would've been instant killed by massive damage from failing the Dex Save against the dragon's poison breath. I just couldn't see the character he'd worked so hard on a backstory for go down like that.

I DM'd the exact same fight recently, except my group was four L4 characters. Dragon wins initiative, uses breath weapon, party dead.

And that was after they had cleared Wave Echo Cave.

[Yagyujubei]

hehe, my DM tried to do this to my group too! it was 5 of us at level 4 i think and it was a CR9 young blue dragon, and he was fudging the stats on it HARD. we're talking like 600 foot per turn flight, and as many breath attacks as he wanted (3 in the first 3 turns, and 1 on the 6th).

it was clear he was trying to tpk us, since he didn't actually land the thing once until the very end when it was about to die, but our ranger pretty much soloed the thing using his own attack rounds and our fighters battle maneuver that granted him attacks.

the rest of us just sat there with our thumbs up our rears, and when we finally killed it i really wanted to be like "SUCK IT DM! WE BEAT YOU ******" but that would be rude.

[Darksidebro]

I DM'd the exact same fight recently, except my group was four L4 characters. Dragon wins initiative, uses breath weapon, party dead.

And that was after they had cleared Wave Echo Cave.

Well I should've noted the Party didn't go head on against the dragon. Then they probably would've been Breath Weapon TPK'd. The Party Wizard used Alter Self (Maybe Disguise Self, I'm AFB right now.) to assume the form of a Green Dragonborn and attempted to diplomacy the dragon into assaulting Cragmaw Castle for them by saying there was a "Resistance Mounting to kill you there, and treasure."

The Dwarf Paladin/Cleric had been scaling the Outside of the Tower by then and waited at the top, jumping down onto the Dragon when things when south with the diplomacy. It's worth noting that the dragon did start it's first turn with a Breath Weapon that dropped the Wizard and Monk. The Dwarf then Holy Worded the Wizard as the dragon began trying to get him off it's back. When it was reduced to 1/2 HP it attempted to get away by flying out over Neverwinter Wood with Dwarf still attacking it from it's back. The Wizard ran to the top of the tower and fired at the Dragon several times, even at max range (with the help of the Cleric's Guiding Bolts)

It was refreshing and entertaining to see, and the player's felt awesome.

[Inchoroi]

Well I should've noted the Party didn't go head on against the dragon. Then they probably would've been Breath Weapon TPK'd. The Party Wizard used Alter Self (Maybe Disguise Self, I'm AFB right now.) to assume the form of a Green Dragonborn and attempted to diplomacy the dragon into assaulting Cragmaw Castle for them by saying there was a "Resistance Mounting to kill you there, and treasure."

The Dwarf Paladin/Cleric had been scaling the Outside of the Tower by then and waited at the top, jumping down onto the Dragon when things when south with the diplomacy. It's worth noting that the dragon did start it's first turn with a Breath Weapon that dropped the Wizard and Monk. The Dwarf then Holy Worded the Wizard as the dragon began trying to get him off it's back. When it was reduced to 1/2 HP it attempted to get away by flying out over Neverwinter Wood with Dwarf still attacking it from it's back. The Wizard ran to the top of the tower and fired at the Dragon several times, even at max range (with the help of the Cleric's Guiding Bolts)

It was refreshing and entertaining to see, and the player's felt awesome.

And this is why I love 5e. DMing my group has been so much more fun since we switched from 4e.

[Longcat]

Well I should've noted the Party didn't go head on against the dragon. Then they probably would've been Breath Weapon TPK'd. The Party Wizard used Alter Self (Maybe Disguise Self, I'm AFB right now.) to assume the form of a Green Dragonborn and attempted to diplomacy the dragon into assaulting Cragmaw Castle for them by saying there was a "Resistance Mounting to kill you there, and treasure."

The Dwarf Paladin/Cleric had been scaling the Outside of the Tower by then and waited at the top, jumping down onto the Dragon when things when south with the diplomacy. It's worth noting that the dragon did start it's first turn with a Breath Weapon that dropped the Wizard and Monk. The Dwarf then Holy Worded the Wizard as the dragon began trying to get him off it's back. When it was reduced to 1/2 HP it attempted to get away by flying out over Neverwinter Wood with Dwarf still attacking it from it's back. The Wizard ran to the top of the tower and fired at the Dragon several times, even at max range (with the help of the Cleric's Guiding Bolts)

It was refreshing and entertaining to see, and the player's felt awesome.

Your group knew what they were getting into. Mine didn't, they tried to clear the town like a dungeon, sticking to the left hand side first. Which resulted in the dragon fight being their third fight or so.

Then again, I run fights like competitive miniature wargames, i. e. unforgiving, highly tactical and zero fudging.

[Tenmujiin]

Well I should've noted the Party didn't go head on against the dragon. Then they probably would've been Breath Weapon TPK'd. The Party Wizard used Alter Self (Maybe Disguise Self, I'm AFB right now.) to assume the form of a Green Dragonborn and attempted to diplomacy the dragon into assaulting Cragmaw Castle for them by saying there was a "Resistance Mounting to kill you there, and treasure."

The Dwarf Paladin/Cleric had been scaling the Outside of the Tower by then and waited at the top, jumping down onto the Dragon when things when south with the diplomacy. It's worth noting that the dragon did start it's first turn with a Breath Weapon that dropped the Wizard and Monk. The Dwarf then Holy Worded the Wizard as the dragon began trying to get him off it's back. When it was reduced to 1/2 HP it attempted to get away by flying out over Neverwinter Wood with Dwarf still attacking it from it's back. The Wizard ran to the top of the tower and fired at the Dragon several times, even at max range (with the help of the Cleric's Guiding Bolts)

It was refreshing and entertaining to see, and the player's felt awesome.

My group had a similar encounter with the dragon at the start of HotDQ, our dwarf paladin had picked up a habit of throwing our halfling rogue at things and this encounter was no different. The rogue was thrown off the ramparts of a castle (3 stories up) they both rolled really well (dm was having the paladin make an athletics check and the rogue make an acrobatics) and the rogue landed inside the dragon's mouth and proceeded to start stabbing (dragon had used its breath weapon on some random guards).

Dragon reaches 1/2 health and the and throws the rogue off and starts flying away, bard remembers he has feather fall as one of his spells as the DM was about to roll falling damage and I gave him the end of a rope with mage hand so we could pull him back in rather than having him float down into an army of cultists.

This was at lv1 and the paladin proceeded to get 1 shot by the half-dragon champion a few in-game minutes later (he survived but only just avoided instant death).