Qs: Dueling + Two Weapon Fighting, Object Interactions, Smite decision time

[odigity]

Another gaming sessions brings a new set of questions:

Q1) Can you combine the benefits of the Dueling style with Two-Weapon Fighting?

My friend is playing a Rogue, about to multiclass Fighter, and wants to use Two-Weapon Fighting to throw a dagger with his off-hand while wielding a Shortsword. He also wants to take the Dueling fighting style and have it apply to the Shortsword. So, the question is, do you have to have the dagger in hand to trigger the ability to use your bonus action to attack with it? If so, can he take the Attack action while only holding the Shortsword, attack with it and gain the damage bonus from Dueling, then draw a dagger as part of the Attack action (but after making the attack) in order to enable the bonus action from TWF?

Two-Weapon Fighting says:

"When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative."

Dueling says:

"When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon."

Q2: How many free object interactions can you get in one round?

From PHB189:

"Interacting with Objects Around You
Here are a few examples of the sorts of thing you can do intandem with your movement and action:
* draw or sheathe a sword
* ..."

From PHB193:

"Use An Object
You normally interact with an object while doing something else, such as when you draw a sword as part of an attack. When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action. This action is also useful when you want to interact with more than one object on your turn."

The most conservative reading of these two sections is that you get one free object interaction on your turn, period, and that it can be used during your Movement or Action (not Bonus action, and no mention of Reaction).

A looser reading of the "with your movement and action" phrase from PHB189 might stretch that to two object interactions, one during each of those two things. But even that is questionable.

So, is that correct? And if you want to be a mad dagger thrower, how do you get around this?

Q3: Can you roll weapon dmg before deciding to Divine Smite?

The text for Divine Smite says:

"Starting at 2nd level, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can expend one paladin spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon’s damage."

Nothing specific about timing.

[danweasel]

Another gaming sessions brings a new set of questions:

Q1) Can you combine the benefits of the Dueling style with Two-Weapon Fighting?

"When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative."

Dueling says:

"When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon."


I don't think the timing is ambiguous: "When you take the Attack action...you can use a bonus action to attack with a...weapon that you're holding..."

At the moment you take the attack action you're going to qualify for that bonus action or not. I don't see how you can finish the attack, draw a new weapon, then say that you're still currently "taking the attack action." You already finished that.

The way Dueling is written you don't need to check whether the condition (no other weapon) holds until the damage roll, but as soon as the damage roll is completed, the action is over and you no longer qualify for the TWF bonus.

Now, you could probably reverse the weapons and have it work. A dagger in your main hand, a shortsword in your offhand. Throw the dagger, gaining the benefit of TWF since at the moment you attack you are holding two weapons. Now you have a bonus action to use: your offhand shortsword. Dueling will apply since at the time of the damage roll you have no other weapon.



Q2: How many free object interactions can you get in one round?

From PHB189:

"Interacting with Objects Around You
Here are a few examples of the sorts of thing you can do intandem with your movement and action:
* draw or sheathe a sword
* ..."

From PHB193:

"Use An Object
You normally interact with an object while doing something else, such as when you draw a sword as part of an attack. When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action. This action is also useful when you want to interact with more than one object on your turn."



"when you want to interact with more than one object on your turn" seems as clear as it can be. It doesn't say "more than one object during your movement phase" it says "on your turn" which encompasses everything you do on your, well, turn.

As far as a Fighter wanting to use all his attacks to throw daggers galore, have him grab all four daggers from their sheathes at once, then throw them one at a time? That's a common enough trope, and "fish a few coins from your belt pouch" in the object interaction list implies that a single interaction could be with multiple similar items in close proximity.



Q3: Can you roll weapon dmg before deciding to Divine Smite?

The text for Divine Smite says:

"Starting at 2nd level, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can expend one paladin spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon’s damage."

Nothing specific about timing.


"when you hit" is specific enough. Not "when you damage" or "after you damage" or "whenever you want." Did the DM check your roll+bonus against the creature's AC and say: "you hit the creature, roll damage"? That's when you hit, make the decision.

[odigity]

Now, you could probably reverse the weapons and have it work. A dagger in your main hand, a shortsword in your offhand. Throw the dagger, gaining the benefit of TWF since at the moment you attack you are holding two weapons. Now you have a bonus action to use: your offhand shortsword. Dueling will apply since at the time of the damage roll you have no other weapon.

That's brilliant, though I'd reverse your reversal:

Shortsword in primary hand, Dagger in off-hand; declare Attack action, then immediately use Bonus action to throw the dagger, then perform your Attack action's attacks with Shortsword benefiting from Dueling. You can use the Bonus action at any time during or after your Attack action, I believe.

Of course if he's going dual dagger, the order and hand-assignments doesn't matter.


As far as a Fighter wanting to use all his attacks to throw daggers galore, have him grab all four daggers from their sheathes at once, then throw them one at a time? That's a common enough trope, and "fish a few coins from your belt pouch" in the object interaction list implies that a single interaction could be with multiple similar items in close proximity.

That's also an interesting and plausible arguemnt.


"when you hit" is specific enough. Not "when you damage" or "after you damage" or "whenever you want." Did the DM check your roll+bonus against the creature's AC and say: "you hit the creature, roll damage"? That's when you hit, make the decision.

That's what I figured, but wanted to be sure. It's not an unreasonable requirement, though the scenario came up earlier today where I would have wanted to not use Divine Smite after seeing the base damage roll. :)

[Shadow]

That's brilliant, though I'd reverse your reversal:

Shortsword in primary hand, Dagger in off-hand; declare Attack action, then immediately use Bonus action to throw the dagger, then perform your Attack action's attacks with Shortsword benefiting from Dueling. You can use the Bonus action at any time during or after your Attack action, I believe.

That's not what he's saying. He's saying:
Main hand dagger.
Off hand short sword.
Attack and throw dagger.
You were holding the SS when you took the attack action, so you can now use a bonus action to attack with the SS and get dueling because no other weapon is held.

It doesn't say "declaring the attack action," it says "when you take the attack action."
Declaring an attack with the short sword doesn't trigger the bonus, the actual action of attacking with it does. So your example breaks the flow up so that it doesn't work.

[danweasel]

Yeah as far as I'm aware there's no sense in the rules of "declaring an attack action", you just perform the action itself. Some bonus actions can be taken independently of what your normal action (spells with a casting time of one bonus action, for instance), and those can be taken before your normal action, but in this instance you only qualify for the bonus action when you've actually attacked the first time.

[odigity]

That's not what he's saying. He's saying:
Main hand dagger.
Off hand short sword.
Attack and throw dagger.
You were holding the SS when you took the attack action, so you can now use a bonus action to attack with the SS and get dueling because no other weapon is held.

It doesn't say "declaring the attack action," it says "when you take the attack action."
Declaring an attack with the short sword doesn't trigger the bonus, the actual action of attacking with it does. So your example breaks the flow up so that it doesn't work.

That's unfortunate. That won't work with Extra Attack in the mix.

[danweasel]

That's unfortunate. That won't work with Extra Attack in the mix.

I was trying to find a way to make it work RAW, but I can't. Your best bet is probably:

"You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified,"

There are two issues: when *exactly* do you qualify for the bonus if your Attack action involves Extra Attacks, and is it permissible to take a bonus action between the discreet attacks of your Attack action.

1. "when you take the Attack action and attack..." might mean you qualify for the bonus after the first discreet attack has been resolved. It doesn't say "and make all attacks," so you have a good argument here.

2. "you choose when to take a bonus action..." The timing of when you can use the bonus action granted by TWF isn't specified, only the timing of when you qualify for it. But can an multiple attack Action be interrupted in this way? The rules don't say that it can, but neither do they say that it must be resolved in full before anything else can be done. That you're specifically allowed to move between attacks is a boost to the idea that the Attack action doesn't need to be resolved all at once, but it's still not clearly specified either way.

You'll need a ruling from your DM for this to work, especially on point 2.

If allowed, then you can pretty much do what you want: start with a dagger in each hand. Take the Attack action and throw one dagger, qualifying you for your bonus. Use your bonus to throw the other dagger (and gain Dueling's +2 damage!). Draw your shortsword, take all the other attacks you qualify for all with Dueling's +2 damage.

[Shadow]

That's unfortunate. That won't work with Extra Attack in the mix.

Well, to be fair, you are trying to find a way to both TWF and Duel at the same time, while those two things were not intended to play well together to the point where they're mutually exclusive.
The fact that you found a way around the mutually exclusive nature of those two things should be enough.
The fact that it also doesn't play well with extra attack, in my mind, is absolutely a good thing. It's not unfortunate at all as far as I'm concerned.

[odigity]

Well, to be fair, you are trying to find a way to both TWF and Duel at the same time, while those two things were not intended to play well together to the point where they're mutually exclusive.
The fact that you found a way around the mutually exclusive nature of those two things should be enough.
The fact that it also doesn't play well with extra attack, in my mind, is absolutely a good thing. It's not unfortunate at all as far as I'm concerned.

Except TWF kinda sucks, and getting Str/Dex bonus dmg to off-hand attack isn't that hot, and doesn't scale as well as Extra Attacks with a great weapon. Which is why we're working so hard to make a clever build to work around those limitations.

[Shadow]

Except TWF kinda sucks, and getting Str/Dex bonus dmg to off-hand attack isn't that hot, and doesn't scale as well as Extra Attacks with a great weapon. Which is why we're working so hard to make a clever build to work around those limitations.

TWF isn't nearly as bad as people claim.
At our table we use one simple and easy fix for TWF so that it works well. The benefits of using a better weapon from the duel wielder feat and the benefit of getting mod to damage from the style are swapped.
So now anyone can duel wield effectively (mod to damage with a feat) but only fighters and rangers can use better weapons to do so.

It is my opinion that the only reason things aren't this way in the PHB already is because feats are technically listed as optional, and doing it this way removes even the fighter and ranger from getting mod to damage if no feats are allowed, so they were forced to do it the other way.

edit:
As for "Str/Dex bonus dmg to off-hand attack isn't that hot":
Well, mod to damage on that attack is far better than +2 to damage on that one attack.