Nature's Wrath + Ensnaring Strike = redundant nonsense

[odigity]

Third level Oath of Ancients Paladin gets two nearly identical abilities:

Nature’s Wrath. You can use your Channel Divinity to invoke primeval forces to ensnare a foe. As an action, you can cause spectral vines to spring up and reach for a creature within 10 feet of you that you can see. The creature must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (its choice) or be restrained. While restrained by the vines, the creature repeats the saving throw at the end of each of its turns. On a success, it frees itself and the vines vanish.

Ensnaring Strike
1st-level conjuration
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
The next time you hit a creature with a weapon attack before this spell ends, a writhing mass of thorny vines appears at the point of impact, and the target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be restrained by the magical vines until the spell ends. A Large or larger creature has advantage on this saving throw. If the target succeeds on the save, the vines shrivel away.
While restrained by this spell, the target takes 1d6 piercing damage at the start of each of its turns. A creature restrained by the vines or one that can touch the creature can use its action to make a Strength check against your spell save DC. On a success, the target is freed.
At Higher Levels. If you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 1st

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Why? They both kinda suck, and they're nearly identical. How is this sane/fair? Have any of you houseruled a change to fix this?

[Gwendol]

They're different: one is a casting on which you need to concentrate, then hit an enemy. The other is essentially a short range spell.

[odigity]

one is a casting on which you need to concentrate, then hit an enemy. The other is essentially a short range spell.

One requires your action, is absurdly short range, and gives your foe a choice of saves, which happens again each round.

The other requires Concentration (which most other Paladin spells also compete for), gives advantage to Large creatures (the ones you most want to ensnare), also lets the foe re-check every round, but ALSO lets his friend do it for him if he's not strong enough.

They both suck on top of being almost identical in purpose and means.


They're different

Not very.

[Gwendol]

Well, if you, as a paladin, choose to champion nature, instead of righteous vengeance or unswerving devotion to a cause, you should suffer from it ;-)

Yeah, compared with what the other oaths give, this is not quite the same. The channel divinity ability is a reaction however, which makes it more useful than you seem to think.

[odigity]

Well, if you, as a paladin, choose to champion nature, instead of righteous vengeance or unswerving devotion to a cause, you should suffer from it ;-)

It gets better. Oath of Ancients gets useful AoE spells later. It's just the 3rd lvl features that suck balls.


The channel divinity ability is a reaction however, which makes it more useful than you seem to think.

Nope. Action.

[Gwendol]

You're right, action. It was nerfed before release, for some unfathomable reason.

[Tarvil]

Well, it's nothing scary. Paladin gave some better spells, so it's no need using ensnaring strike. But I agree that Nature's Wrath is bad. Maybe if it had better range and save type was player choice (at least at the first turn) i would see more use. But hey, OotA Paladin still rock, with of without it ;).

[odigity]

But hey, OotA Paladin still rock, with of without it ;).

No doubt. While levels 1 and 3 (Ancients) sucks, level 2 is awesome enough to almost make up for it, and levels 4 and 5 are both going to be fantastic for me. Still, would like to make the argument for swapping out Nature's Wrath for a better option that doesn't just duplicate the same effect you could already do as a bonus action via Ensnaring Strike. I'd happily take one of the other two Oath's CD abilities, especially Sacred Weapon.

[Gwendol]

You can always ask your DM about it.

[odigity]

You can always ask your DM about it.

Of course, but I like to post things here for discussion before having the real one. Make sure I'm not crazy.

[danweasel]

No doubt. While levels 1 and 3 (Ancients) sucks, level 2 is awesome enough to almost make up for it, and levels 4 and 5 are both going to be fantastic for me. Still, would like to make the argument for swapping out Nature's Wrath for a better option that doesn't just duplicate the same effect you could already do as a bonus action via Ensnaring Strike. I'd happily take one of the other two Oath's CD abilities, especially Sacred Weapon.

It is a little weird to have them so similar. A cleaner solution might just be to ask to replace Ensnaring Strike with another spell that still fits the theme. Probably easier to clear by your DM too. The only other tweak I'd ask for/propose is to make Nature's Wrath just a Strength save (aligning it to Ensaring Strike).

[Mechaviking]

Hmm, pre release it did pretty solid damage on top of being an AOE at range, so yeah it went through the fully-automatic-nerf-o-matic and came back in shreds.

[Daishain]

I'd happily take one of the other two Oath's CD abilities, especially Sacred Weapon.
Agreed, although it would be appropriate to tweak it to match fluff.

I kind of like the idea of the OOTA channel involving becoming a literal beacon of hope like their oath urges them to be, bolstering friendlies in the area in some way for a time. However, I'm coming up with blanks at the moment on stuff that would be crunch worthy without being OP.

[Regulas]

I think the main point of having the paladin ability is just so that you can save your con for other abilities like any self buffs you might have. Also despite the save nature, restrained is not exactly that bad of a status it does give everyone advantage on attack rolls until they make there save, and they basically have to pick str and not dex since if they fail that first check they get disadvantage on the Dex saves.



Well, if you, as a paladin, choose to champion nature, instead of righteous vengeance or unswerving devotion to a cause, you should suffer from it ;-)

Also isn't there oath about like Joy and stuff and not nature? Oath Pallies I don't believe are so much explicitly protectors of nature, they are "Fey" Paladins and Fey rather just tend to be in tune with nature.

Really this is the path for your Arthurian knights, and notably for the classic Green Knight. Lady in the Lake is clearly a nymph.

[Gwendol]

Except Galahad, he must a Devotion paladin.

[Scirocco]

There is one advantage to the CD vs spell: It's a CD option and therefore recharges on a short rest vs. a spell that doesn't.

[Ziegander]

Isn't restrained speed = 0ft, disadvantage on all attacks and strength and dexterity checks AND advantage on all attacks made against?

[Daishain]

Isn't restrained speed = 0ft, disadvantage on all attacks and strength and dexterity checks AND advantage on all attacks made against?

Oh its a good condition to impose. The issue is that the channel divinity ability in question is a much weaker version of a spell that the OOTA paladin gets automatically and doesn't even need to prepare.

The CD version is very easily resisted and doesn't even have the ongoing damage rider effect of the spell.

[Regulas]

Oh its a good condition to impose. The issue is that the channel divinity ability in question is a much weaker version of a spell that the OOTA paladin gets automatically and doesn't even need to prepare.

The CD version is very easily resisted and doesn't even have the ongoing damage rider effect of the spell.

As I mentioned the main point of the Nature's Wrath would appear to be the fact that it doesn't take concentration allowing you to maintain another spell.

[odigity]

Exactly. Crappy range, takes an action, and probably won't stick because of the easy saves.

I'd rather spend that round making three divine smite attacks with my polearm and just eliminate the threat.

[EvilAnagram]

Have it target three enemies? That way you aren't wasting your action on something terrible, you get to exercise decent control at short range, and you have a better chance of succeeding in binding someone.

That all said, its short range isn't a big deal. Paladins are short-range combatants, and Nature's Wrath is decent as a way to keep some slippery ******* from escaping. If you use this to keep an enemy wizard from fleeing, then move right up on top of him so that when his turn comes up he thinks twice about casting at your squishier friends.

[Regulas]

Exactly. Crappy range, takes an action, and probably won't stick because of the easy saves.

I'd rather spend that round making three divine smite attacks with my polearm and just eliminate the threat.

Well assuming it's a boss certainly, but you are using a lot of smites there.

For example a fighters action surge is great.. but people often seem to forget it's once per short rest.

[Daishain]

That all said, its short range isn't a big deal. Paladins are short-range combatants, and Nature's Wrath is decent as a way to keep some slippery ******* from escaping. If you use this to keep an enemy wizard from fleeing, then move right up on top of him so that when his turn comes up he thinks twice about casting at your squishier friends.Thing is, if you're that close already, chances are you've got a means of preventing escape already. Between ensnaring strike, misty step, the paladin's steed, high chances of having the sentinel feat, etc.. Heck, in most cases, just grapple the guy.

It would make sense as a reliable means of temporarily removing a single guy from the fight while you deal with his buddies, but if the odds are against it having any practical effect, you're better off just smacking someone. Possibly using thunderous smite, which does a similar job, only more reliably along with a large amount of damage.

[Mechaviking]

Well assuming it's a boss certainly, but you are using a lot of smites there.

For example a fighters action surge is great.. but people often seem to forget it's once per long rest.

Top Right side of Page 72 short or long rest.

[Vogonjeltz]

Not very.

Ensnaring Strike is useful in that, as a bonus action, you can combine it with melee attacks. However it requires concentration and caps out at 1 minute (10 rounds).

Nature's Wrath is great in that there is no time limit on it. If your opponent can't make their save, they're stuck. It also doesn't give advantage to an opponent on the save, so it is substantially better against Large+ sized opponents. Furthermore, whereas Ensnaring Strike can be ended by someone other than the target, Nature's Wrath can not. Indeed, Ensnaring Strike allows at least 2 checks per turn (1 strength save, 1 strength check by the target) +1 per anyone else who wants to help them to end the effect.

Nature's Wrath is clearly superior in almost every way.


The CD version is very easily resisted and doesn't even have the ongoing damage rider effect of the spell.

They're equally resisted, both use the exact same save formula. If Nature's Wrath fails, so would Ensnaring Strike.

[Daishain]

They're equally resisted, both use the exact same save formula. If Nature's Wrath fails, so would Ensnaring Strike.
Str save or Str/Dex save (their choice)

The majority of characters you need this to work on have better dex saves than strength.

[bloodshed343]

Suggested house rule: Nature's Wrath is a 10' cone.

[Ellington]

Nature's Wrath is great in that there is no time limit on it. If your opponent can't make their save, they're stuck.

Good point. I'd advise using on people with disadvantages to their saving throws (poisoned foes, for instance). It's certainly situational but maybe it's not as bad as I thought.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

As Ziegander noted, Restrained is quite the powerful effect, so they put serious limiters on how PCs can impose it. This means attempting to impose it is high risk/high reward.

In play it seemed to work out all right, though I admit small sample size and confirmation bias. A ranger ally successfully landed Ensnaring Strike on the most powerful enemy of a climactic fight, and my fighter subsequently facerolled him. Had the rolls been different it would have been a wasted spell, but the ranger couldn't use other concentration pre-buffs, and if you're attacking a lot the effect goes off pretty quickly.

In all, I could see different uses for Ensnaring Strike and the CD feature, mostly based on resource expenditure and (albeit limited) range. Multiple restraining effects are fine, if a bit one-dimensional. It's not the best set of abilities evar, but no oath has or should have every feature be the greatest.

[Person_Man]

Yeah, its a problem that reoccurs across 3/4/5E D&D. There is a lot of overlap and different ways to accomplish the same things. It's a result of the desire to have a ton of different races, classes, spells, feats, backgrounds, etc.

[Vogonjeltz]

Str save or Str/Dex save (their choice)

The majority of characters you need this to work on have better dex saves than strength.

Restrained creatures have disadvantage on Dexterity saving throws. Granted, this only occurs once they are restrained (and technically the first save is without this benefit, so I suppose it could conceivably be more easily resisted...that being said, most enemies don't have save proficiencies, and str is typically higher than dex, from what I've seen leafing through the MM. So on the whole, it's significantly harder to shake (only 1 save allowed per turn vs 2+ for ensnaring strike).

Nature's Wrath is superior in virtually every way, excluding the action use.

[Daishain]

Restrained creatures have disadvantage on Dexterity saving throws. Granted, this only occurs once they are restrained (and technically the first save is without this benefit, so I suppose it could conceivably be more easily resisted...that being said, most enemies don't have save proficiencies, and str is typically higher than dex, from what I've seen leafing through the MM. So on the whole, it's significantly harder to shake (only 1 save allowed per turn vs 2+ for ensnaring strike).

Nature's Wrath is superior in virtually every way, excluding the action use.You keep saying that, but I'm not seeing it, particularly because the action use is a big disadvantage, especially for a paladin.

You keep assuming that our victim is going to have an ally that has nothing better to do than help him out. Even if he does, assuming we're talking about near identical enemies, it makes no practical difference either way. If it takes six tries to free the ensnared, that is six actions that are not taken against the party, whether its one creature taken out of action for six rounds, or six creatures that are occupied for one round. Hell, the latter situation is usually preferable, since the party is likely to end the encounter in less than the former time frame anyways, and the enemy grouped in one spot makes for easy and plentiful AOE kills.

[Vogonjeltz]

You keep saying that, but I'm not seeing it, particularly because the action use is a big disadvantage, especially for a paladin.

You keep assuming that our victim is going to have an ally that has nothing better to do than help him out. Even if he does, assuming we're talking about near identical enemies, it makes no practical difference either way. If it takes six tries to free the ensnared, that is six actions that are not taken against the party, whether its one creature taken out of action for six rounds, or six creatures that are occupied for one round. Hell, the latter situation is usually preferable, since the party is likely to end the encounter in less than the former time frame anyways, and the enemy grouped in one spot makes for easy and plentiful AOE kills.

Ok let me lay out the differences clearly, it seems I haven't done that well enough:

Save: Strength for both (no difference) or Dex for natures wrath (at disadvantage, and Dex saves are typically worse for creatures than strength)

Also, one save chance allowed per round for the cd ability, 2 allowed for just the spell just for the target. That excludes even the reality that assistance is also possible for the spell, but not the CD ability.

Duration: spell max 1 minute, also requires concentration.
Cd ability is fire and forget, no time limit.

Seriously, the spell has exactly two reasons it might be considered better (damage and bonus action to use).

[Daishain]

Ok let me lay out the differences clearly, it seems I haven't done that well enough:

Save: Strength for both (no difference) or Dex for natures wrath (at disadvantage, and Dex saves are typically worse for creatures than strength)

Also, one save chance allowed per round for the cd ability, 2 allowed for just the spell just for the target. That excludes even the reality that assistance is also possible for the spell, but not the CD ability.

Duration: spell max 1 minute, also requires concentration.
Cd ability is fire and forget, no time limit.

Seriously, the spell has exactly two reasons it might be considered better (damage and bonus action to use).
In order then:
-not for the effect to have an impact at all. That first save is the most critical, and allowing a greater range of options generally reduces the odds of it landing. Regardless, it is more often the high dex enemies that you want to pin, the high Str ones are generally limited in movement already unless running away. Slight advantage to spell

-Incorrect. Without outside assistance the number of saves allowed is the same. Once upon casting/chanelling and once per turn using action. With outside assistance you're occupying even more enemies than normal which is a good thing as I mentioned before. Slight advantage to spell

-Partly irrelevant. Very, very few combats last beyond 10 rounds, so the duration is of no concern in nearly all cases. By the time 10 rounds are up, the guy is almost guaranteed to have passed the check anyways. Concentration is a bigger issue, but even high level Paladins don't cast many spells, and keeping a guy occupied is worthwhile. Slight advantage to CD.

P.S. You forgot range. CD is limited to ten feet. Ensnaring strike is only limited by the range of the weapon used. Any well prepared paladin is going to have a ranged weapon as backup, most likely a couple javelins if they don't have the dex for a longbow. 10' vs 30'(or 120' with disadvantage to hit, bear in mind the spell isn't wasted on a miss). This especially a difference if the reason you need to snare the target involves them running away or otherwise being out of reach. Advantage to spell.

[Yakk]

Make nature's wrath target any number of creatures within 10' of you.

The target, or an ally, can spend an action to get another save.

[Vogonjeltz]

In order then:
-not for the effect to have an impact at all. That first save is the most critical, and allowing a greater range of options generally reduces the odds of it landing. Regardless, it is more often the high dex enemies that you want to pin, the high Str ones are generally limited in movement already unless running away. Slight advantage to spell

-Incorrect. Without outside assistance the number of saves allowed is the same. Once upon casting/chanelling and once per turn using action. With outside assistance you're occupying even more enemies than normal which is a good thing as I mentioned before. Slight advantage to spell

-Partly irrelevant. Very, very few combats last beyond 10 rounds, so the duration is of no concern in nearly all cases. By the time 10 rounds are up, the guy is almost guaranteed to have passed the check anyways. Concentration is a bigger issue, but even high level Paladins don't cast many spells, and keeping a guy occupied is worthwhile. Slight advantage to CD.

P.S. You forgot range. CD is limited to ten feet. Ensnaring strike is only limited by the range of the weapon used. Any well prepared paladin is going to have a ranged weapon as backup, most likely a couple javelins if they don't have the dex for a longbow. 10' vs 30'(or 120' with disadvantage to hit, bear in mind the spell isn't wasted on a miss). This especially a difference if the reason you need to snare the target involves them running away or otherwise being out of reach. Advantage to spell.


What the what? The Spell's multiple saves is like having advantage on the save, and they literally get advantage if the target is large+. The CD ability is completely better as a direct consequence.

Paladins need concentration for smites, this is very much a big deal. Ensnaring strike is better suited to a Ranger. Also, because the spell has to be cast prior to an attack landing, the actual duration of the spell is likely less than 10 rounds. So, I disagree with you, CD is much better on this count.

[Daishain]

What the what? The Spell's multiple saves is like having advantage on the save, and they literally get advantage if the target is large+. The CD ability is completely better as a direct consequence.

Paladins need concentration for smites, this is very much a big deal. Ensnaring strike is better suited to a Ranger. Also, because the spell has to be cast prior to an attack landing, the actual duration of the spell is likely less than 10 rounds. So, I disagree with you, CD is much better on this count.
Whether we're talking about the ES or CD, every single save after the one to avoid the initial effect costs someone's action, rendering that character all but useless for the round. Generally speaking, having a bunch of people out of action for a single round is usually more worthwhile than a single person out of action for a bunch of rounds. The only case where it is advantageous for someone to spend time helping an ensnared buddy out is if said buddy is significantly stronger by some metric.

If its anything less than 9 rounds, which still is more than enough, your paladin has bigger problems to worry about than duration. Hitting someone is not that hard.