Challenge : Can you make a wizard better at being a monk than a monk himself?

[Synar]

Title say it all : we all know that wizards are better at being wizards than monks are, but can you craft a wizard that best a monk not only at being a martial artist, but at being a monk while still being a wizard on the side?
Can you build a wizard that shows why T1 are called T1, and refute the niche system? Can you make irrelevantMonkdays once and for all?

If you think you're up to this task, please post your builds (including, of course, spell selection and ways to get your buff on) in this brand new challenge!


To respect the challenge, you should try to as much as possible be a single-classed wizard (prestige and multi-classing is not banned, but a negative point proportional to its use), be as efficient a martial artist as you can, and replicate as much features of the monk you manage (yes, some are obvious)!

Your build may include any datas you think are relevant, from class levels and feats to spells and equipment.
And if there are enough participants, we might even get to voting!

:smallbiggrin:

And as always, playground, go wild!

[(Un)Inspired]

I think the spells Haste, Heroics, Heroism, and Greater Mighty Wallop alone make any wizard better at being a monk than any monk.

[RolandDeschain]

I think the spells Haste, Heroics, Heroism, and Greater Mighty Wallop alone make any wizard better at being a monk than any monk.


In addition to this, if you wanna punch stuff, couldn't you just cast:

Fist of Stone
Blood wind

Punch stuff hard and do it from 20 ft away.

[Synar]

Maybe, but could you make your martial artist wizard EVEN BETTER?

Also defences, ways to be buffed at the right time, ...

[(Un)Inspired]

Also defences, ways to be buffed at the right time, ...

Craft contingency and celerity essentially makes both of these non-issues.

[Synar]

Craft contingency and celerity essentially makes both of these non-issues.

Uh, I should have precised that some things should be left out of the equation : namely loops, action economy-breakers, PAO shenanigans, and theoritical optimization. Because if everything boils down to ice assassins, ever, that just isn't fun. And ultimately, we're here to have fun, right?

[(Un)Inspired]

Uh, I should have precised that some things should be left out of the equation : namely loops, action economy-breakers, PAO shenanigans, and theoritical optimization. Because if everything boils down to ice assassins, ever, that just isn't fun. And ultimately, we're here to have fun, right?

What do you define as action economy breaking? The things I posted aren't, on their own, examples of TO.

[aleucard]

You could make an Expert a better Monk than a Monk with just WBL. A (probably Easy-Bake, but there are other methods) Wizard can, with the right spells at hand, compare favorably to a Monk with WBL while bare-ass naked. There's probably at least 3 different things that could be Binded at every CR available that are better monks than characters with equal CL in Monk.

Part of the problem is that a sizable chunk of the things that are interesting in the class are A) frontloaded and B) only interesting with the addition of things not available to straight monks. The rest can be reasonably replicated at each level with probably a fraction of WBL, if not actually improved. It doesn't matter if you have no dead levels if the things populating those levels are all either featherweight crap or only at their most effective to multiclassers.

EDIT: I will admit that a sizable chunk of the best builds that are Monk-related have dips into Monk (maybe as much as 6 levels), but dips they remain. They are the stick that the cotton candy you actually eat is formed around. Without the cotton candy, it's glorified litter.

[Doc_Maynot]

Shapeshift (Zodar)->(Su) Wish-> Scroll of Ice Assassin Designating an Aleax of a (Half-Minotaur Arthasian) Talashador Monk?

[Mato]

Q: Can you make a wizard better at being a monk than a monk himself?
A: Apparently not.


I think the spells Haste, Heroics, Heroism, and Greater Mighty Wallop alone make any wizard better at being a monk than any monk.Your "monk" offensives abilities is provoking an attack of opportunity with every attack to deal 1d8 damage.
With poor bab.
And the lowest possible hp.
And without ac bonuses.


Craft contingency and celerity essentially makes both of these non-issues.Celerity doesn't work if you're flat-footed, you wouldn't let a handful of marbles be the death of your almighty gamebreaking wizard now would you, specially after all those months and dozens of lost levels setting up thousands contingencies against simply being hit.


What do you define as action economy breaking? The things I posted aren't, on their own, examples of TO.According to his post, celerity.


You could make an Expert a better Monk than a Monk with just WBL.Psst, I think the thread is asking how, not your opinion that it can be done.

But I agree, monk dips stop at the 6th level of monk, the 7th level of monk is too powerful to use in game.


Shapeshift (Zodar)->(Su) Wish-> Scroll of Ice Assassin Designating an Aleax of a (Half-Minotaur Arthasian) Talashador Monk?Is "ice assassin" the only answer you can get on these forums these days?

[Doc_Maynot]

Is "ice assassin" the only answer you can get on these forums these days?

Fine I guess you can make a simulacrum of one instead.
I was just aiming to get that answer out of the way, should have made it in blue.

[Mato]

I was just aiming to get that answer out of the way, should have made it in blue.Someone already beat you to it :p

The OP already learned to ban it by the 6th post.

[Nightraiderx]

I shall take the challenge on and make a build, but it shall take time.

I will also attempt to stick to what the OP said and use wizard 20.

[heavyfuel]

Get a staple Gish build like Wizard 5/Swiftblade 9/Spellsword 1/Abju Champ 5. Substitute one level at least for a level of Human Paragon for class skills similar to the monk. Get Able Learner and Superior Unarmed Strike for your feats.

If you're going Wizard 20. You're better at lv7, which is when Polymorph comes online. Get Martial Wizard and the same feats.

There. You just built a guy that can hit unarmed better than the Monk, use his all of his skills because you have so many skill points unlike him, being just as fast, and getting the Monk capstone 19 levels earlier. All that while casting at least 8th level spells along your career.

You're better at being a Monk than a Monk.

However, this isn't saying much, as very few things in the game are as powerful as Wizards, even one that is sacrificing caster levels.

Also, Monks do have a purpose. It's a weak class for optimizers to play at a table were people play mid-op Clerics, Wizards and Druids.

[Troacctid]

Use the martial wizard variant from Unearthed Arcana to get your bonus feats. Haste covers the speed bonus and flurry. Monk's Belt gives you unarmed damage and unarmored AC. Now just add Tenser's Transformation and suddenly you're doing it all with a better chassis, too.

[(Un)Inspired]

Q: Can you make a wizard better at being a monk than a monk himself?
A: Apparently not.

Your "monk" offensives abilities is provoking an attack of opportunity with every attack to deal 1d8 damage.
With poor bab.
And the lowest possible hp.
And without ac bonuses.

Celerity doesn't work if you're flat-footed, you wouldn't let a handful of marbles be the death of your almighty gamebreaking wizard now would you, specially after all those months and dozens of lost levels setting up thousands contingencies against simply being hit.


It seems that you are a little confused my friend. Let me see if I can help.

Flat footed ness doesn't matter for celerity if the celerity is coming from a crafted contingency spell. I'm not sure where these lost levels your talking about are coming from. Setting up clever catch-all contingencies isn't that difficult nor does it require thousands of them. I can explain in more detail if you like but I think it's relatively self evident.

I'm not totally sure why you think the wizard is only doing 1d8 damage per hit and is provoking opportunity attacks with each attempt. The spell heroics prevents either of these things from occurring.

I'm not sure why hp and AC are issues when attacks can be avoided outright but things like false life a channelled life they'd should give a wizard more thane bought temp hp to effectively have more hit points than a monk.

Alter self, polymorph, Mage armor; AC bonuses are fairly trivial for a wizard to come by.

Low baby is certainly something my brief wizard example has but heroism, haste and polymorph can give it both a greater attack plus and more attack than a monk can have.

I hope I've helped you by explaining what I wrote a little further but if things are still unclear I'd be happy to expand on them for you.

[NotScaryBats]

Expeditious Retreat gives you the movement bonus, too!!

[(Un)Inspired]

Expeditious Retreat gives you the movement bonus, too!!

Yeah but I don't think that stacks with haste

[NotScaryBats]

Y'know, Haste does cover the move speed bonus, you're right.

[(Un)Inspired]

Y'know, Haste does cover the move speed bonus, you're right.

I like the way you're thinking though. Expeditious Retreat was actually the first spell that came to my mind.

[Nightraiderx]

Use the martial wizard variant from Unearthed Arcana to get your bonus feats. Haste covers the speed bonus and flurry. Monk's Belt gives you unarmed damage and unarmored AC. Now just add Tenser's Transformation and suddenly you're doing it all with a better chassis, too.

Haste, and Tenser's Need to add those, also threw in persist spell so some of the lower level buffs can be thrown on.

Nothing was said about not using adaptable scorpion Kama's to offset the attack penalty, good monks would not pass up on scorpion Kama's so easily.

Superior unarmed Strike feat and mage armor, greater can cover it and instead you can buy a belt of battle (monk's belt will lower your unarmed strike damage)

Dimension Door, straight forward

Persisted Bloodwind for the better range with unarmed strikes.
Arcane Strike to boost attack and damage.

Bite of the were-rat persisted, now you have a +12 enhancmement bonus to dex.

Fairy-Initiate for +Int to HP.

Reserves and Quick recovery to break CL caps on stuff (I felt polymorph spells would make it too easy)

Heroics feat for (twf or snap kick)

Wraithstrike to hit even easier AC's

Ruin Delver's Fortune for evasion

Any touch spell can be used with an unarmed strike, so now it can do better than the dragonblooded monk alt.
Greater/Superior Invisibility, now it has a better effect than the 5th level monk substitution that gives monk 50% concealment.
Synostodweomer spell now can heal burning points similar to the monk's self heal.

[(Un)Inspired]

Haste, and Tenser's Need to add those, also threw in persist spell so some of the lower level buffs can be thrown on.

Nothing was said about not using adaptable scorpion Kama's to offset the attack penalty, good monks would not pass up on scorpion Kama's so easily.

Superior unarmed Strike feat and mage armor, greater can cover it and instead you can buy a belt of battle (monk's belt will lower your unarmed strike damage)

Dimension Door, straight forward

Persisted Bloodwind for the better range with unarmed strikes.
Arcane Strike to boost attack and damage.

Bite of the were-rat persisted, now you have a +12 enhancmement bonus to dex.

Fairy-Initiate for +Int to HP.

Reserves and Quick recovery to break CL caps on stuff (I felt polymorph spells would make it too easy)

Heroics feat for (twf or snap kick)

Wraithstrike to hit even easier AC's

Ruin Delver's Fortune for evasion

Any touch spell can be used with an unarmed strike, so now it can do better than the dragonblooded monk alt.
Greater/Superior Invisibility, now it has a better effect than the 5th level monk substitution that gives monk 50% concealment.
Synostodweomer spell now can heal burning points similar to the monk's self heal.

I would avoid tensers transformation ( if you use it then you can't case those D. Doors) instead slack the skillful weapon enhancement into you weapon and you match the monk's medium bab.

[Mato]

I shall take the challenge on and make a build, but it shall take time.I like the cut of his jib.


If you're going Wizard 20. You're better at lv7, which is when Polymorph comes online. Get Martial Wizard and the same feats.

There. You just built a guy that can hit unarmed better than the Monk, use his all of his skills because you have so many skill points unlike him, being just as fast, and getting the Monk capstone 19 levels earlier. All that while casting at least 8th level spells along your career.A much more serious attempt than before. I like it, but to push you forward some more. Superior unarmed strike stops at 2d6, progressed to colossal you have 8d6 to damage. That's an average of 26 damage, it's almost half the colossal monk's 12d8 (54 avg). Polymorph isn't available at the 1st level either for you to hold a 19 level difference.

You seem pretty reliant on polymorph making up the difference, which form would you use?


Use the martial wizard variant from Unearthed Arcana to get your bonus feats. Haste covers the speed bonus and flurry. Monk's Belt gives you unarmed damage and unarmored AC. Now just add Tenser's Transformation and suddenly you're doing it all with a better chassis, too.Now that you have committed to using tenser's transformation, removing really the only class feature a wizard has, are you saying choosing great items is better than someone who own nothing?

How does that truly contribute?


I'm not sure where these lost levels your talking about are coming from. Setting up clever catch-all contingencies isn't that difficult nor does it require thousands of them.Craft contingent spell is like any other crafting feat requiring you to pay gold and experiences points. Since you didn't say anything else it can only be assumed your character is naked and unarmed, entirely relaying on multiple crafted contingencies to win (sic massive xp loss). And the 1d8 comment as because without improved unarmed strike you provoke attacks of opportunity, without superior unarmed strike your unarmed strike deals 1d3, taken to colossal that's 1d8.

I do appreciate the second attempt for provide some details through, it's what the original poster wanted and I admit I'm interested. Not in heavyfuel's example, but to see just how much of an expenditure it would take for magic to replace another class.


I think for a bench test of sorts you should consider covering as many traits of the monk as you would expect them to have. As a minor list to help.

Damage
The monk can easily obtain 12d8+str+wsa in the higher levels. He has two additional attacks from flurry and is extremely likely to take snap kick giving him six attacks per round. You need to reliably deal 324+ damage per round with at least 108+ damage when responding to an attack of opportunity. This is not a charging-related figure.

Mobility
You need 5 ranks in balance, reliably beat a dc 15 tumble check, and have a high land speed to move around the battle field with some some confidence. Easy teleportation would work as a substitution of course.

Stealth
Invisibility is only 1/2 the equation, you also need to overcome listen checks. Blink, displacement, and mirror image are a must if anyone mentions the monk has any alternative class features.

Protection
Do you have immunity to poison or disease? Undeath can help.
You'll need easily ignored damage reduction, semi-decent spell resistance and a way to heal your self.
Don't forget the wizard's fortitude and reflex saves are already 6 points behind the monk's.

The often forgot traits
You need ethereal jaunt, dimensional door, tongues, evasion, feather fall, with reservations of friendly fire, shapechange, save or die(s), and bonus d6s to your damage. Often overlooked but they require precious spell slots to be dedicated to them.

At the end of it all, will a build have enough spells per day to cover everything for four unexpected encounters or not? I'd recomend a method to persist your listed buffs as well.

[(Un)Inspired]

A much more serious attempt than before. I like it, but to push you forward some more. Superior unarmed strike stops at 2d6, progressed to colossal you have 8d6 to damage. That's an average of 26 damage, it's almost half the colossal monk's 12d8 (54 avg). Polymorph isn't available at the 1st level either for you to hold a 19 level difference.



Craft contingent spell is like any other crafting feat requiring you to pay gold and experiences points. Since you didn't say anything else it can only be assumed your character is naked and unarmed, entirely relaying on multiple crafted contingencies to win (sic massive xp loss). And the 1d8 comment as because without improved unarmed strike you provoke attacks of opportunity, without superior unarmed strike your unarmed strike deals 1d3, taken to colossal that's 1d8.

I do appreciate the second attempt for provide some details through, it's what the original poster wanted and I admit I'm interested. Not in heavyfuel's example, but to see just how much of an expenditure it would take for magic to replace another class.


I think for a bench test of sorts you should consider covering as many traits of the monk as you would expect them to have. As a minor list to help.

Damage
The monk can easily obtain 12d8+str+wsa in the higher levels. He has two additional attacks from flurry and is extremely likely to take snap kick giving him six attacks per round. You need to reliably deal 324+ damage per round with at least 108+ damage when responding to an attack of opportunity. This is not a charging-related figure.

Mobility
You need 5 ranks in balance, reliably beat a dc 15 tumble check, and have a high land speed to move around the battle field with some some confidence. Easy teleportation would work as a substitution of course.

Stealth
Invisibility is only 1/2 the equation, you also need to overcome listen checks. Blink, displacement, and mirror image are a must if anyone mentions the monk has any alternative class features.

Protection
Do you have immunity to poison or disease? Undeath can help.
You'll need easily ignored damage reduction, semi-decent spell resistance and a way to heal your self.
Don't forget the wizard's fortitude and reflex saves are already 6 points behind the monk's.

The often forgot traits
You need ethereal jaunt, dimensional door, tongues, evasion, feather fall, with reservations of friendly fire, shapechange, save or die(s), and bonus d6s to your damage. Often overlooked but they require precious spell slots to be dedicated to them.

At the end of it all, will a build have enough spells per day to cover everything for four unexpected encounters or not? I'd recomend a method to persist your listed buffs as well.

I not sure if it's fair to assume that a monk is going to have colossal sized damage. I'm not sure how a monk would achieve this using their class features but I may be mistaken.

You're totally right that I didn't talk about techniques for avoiding dealing with the cost of crafting contingent spells. I assumed that a wizard would things like a thought bottles.

[atemu1234]

Stick improved and superior unarmed strike on a gish build. Done.

[Troacctid]

Transformation temporarily suppresses your class features for 1 round/level. It doesn't remove them. You know what does remove your spellcasting ability? Taking 20 levels of Monk and no levels in a spellcasting class. Just saying.

Transformation isn't even the best way to emulate a martial class. It's just the most obvious way.

[Threadnaught]

I'd recomend a method to persist your listed buffs as well.

Necropolitan Gray Elf with Faerie Mysteries Initiate for bonus HP, go Necropolitan in Demiplane created via Genesis with the help of an 8th level Dread Necromancer and 1st level Enhanced Undead Necromancer, while Fell Energize and Desecrate are in effect on the Demiplane. Obviously you must be level 17 or 18 at this point.

The following is DM dependant, but easily argued with a Dictionary.
By being created on the Demiplane, you become Native to your own Demiplane, Planar Bubble can be activated on yourself to bring a piece of your Demiplane into whatever Plane you're on, have it put as many Metamagic Feats onto your Spells as you want, including Persist for any Buffs.


If the DM allows this, then you're sorted. If you can get Genesis before this level (and I know there are those who can), even better.

Yeah, "if" the DM allows it, like if the DM has all Monks as Proficient with their Unarmed Strike.

[Magma Armor0]

just to be clear, is the Monk's Belt allowed? seems like it's literally just "Staple half of a monk around your waist."

[Nightraiderx]

question: what point buy should I use as a basis? would 32 pb be accurate?

[Kazyan]

Yeah, "if" the DM allows it, like if the DM has all Monks as Proficient with their Unarmed Strike.

How are those things even remotely equivalent?

[RoboEmperor]

1. Polymorph + Tenser's Transformation. You punch harder, and you land more hits
2. Ungodly number of magical weapons/clothing. Monks can use weapons, and +10 equivalent weapons > monk's flurries. That + greater magic weapon for a +15 equivalent weapon. Depends on the DM and whether customized equipment are for sale. If they're not wizards are better
3. If you absolutely have to be a human puncher, just grab unarmed strike, tenser's transformation, and every single buff spell you have access to. You will out fight a monk, but if the monk has access to the same buffs then he'll be the stronger. But really, what kind of monk has access to buffs?
a. Spider Skin
b. Greater Mage Armor
c. +4 to attribute spells
d. Displacement
e. Greater Invisibility
f. Tenser's Transformation
g. Greater Mirror Image
h. Iron Body (why not? You're just gonna be punching)
i. stoneskin
j. greater heroism

That's all I got for now. With all these buffs there is no doubt you will win 1v1 v.s. a monk in a punching contest. In fact only half of them is probably needed.

There's a reason why people whine that wizards outfight fighters. Monks are no exception.

If you want no limit, pun-pun yourself into a super monk warrior.

[(Un)Inspired]

Why do people keep suggestion Transformation?

Casting Transformation mean taking a wizard's one (tremendous) advantage and throwing it on the toilet.

Even a monk can cast dimensional door.

[animewatcha]

Through caster level shenanigans, wizard 20 Gates in a 21+ monk that follows his commands while flying outside the movement range of the mato's monk. To add insult to injury, said gate can be metamagic'ed to be quicken'ed, twinned, repeated, etc.

Wizards play this game on their terms, not on Mato's terms.

Heck, 20 wizards turns INTO 20 monk AND has spellcasting ( as an insult ).

[RoboEmperor]

Why do people keep suggestion Transformation?

Casting Transformation mean taking a wizard's one (tremendous) advantage and throwing it on the toilet.

Even a monk can cast dimensional door.

The guy said "be a better monk" and a spellcasting wizard is not a monk, so arguably in combat the wizard is restricted to punching things, so the wizard cannot use his "advantage" in this scenario. Otherwise the thread would be called "How a wizard is so much better than a monk"

Also with fly, overland flight, etc, you don't need to teleport around. By your logic a monk has access to every single spell in the game with UMD.

I forgot to mention, with polymorph, you can turn into a 15hd monk, and still retain all of your spellcasting ability. So 15hd monk + all the buffs, there ya go. A wizard being a better monk.

[DMVerdandi]

I would take a wizard
-Give him the martial wizard ACF
-Eidetic spellcaster
-Spontaneous divination

Use fighter feats to get unarmed feats
get arcane disciple and pick up divine power
Greater mighty wallop, Greater Mage Armor, Wraithstrike, So on and so forth.

Pick up fiery blast for hadouken.

Done.

[ben-zayb]

Imitating Monk features is just a third of the criteria. The first two can be accomplished : first one is a given, then second one with the right spell choices and feats.

What can single-classed monks supposedly do? What are their party roles?

DPR
Skirmisher
Grappler/Tripper
BFC(?)
Scout
Sneak
Stun/SoD(?)
Becoming tough as nails to harm (and to help via SR:Y magic)


If your Wizard can do all of those when it matters, then that seems good enough for its purpose.

[Mato]

Wizards play this game on their terms, not on Mato's terms.
It's not my terms, did you see the thread title?

Can you make a wizard better at being a monk than a monk himself?
Shooting a fireball isn't a wizard being a monk, it's a wizard being a wizard. And a wizard with haste and transformation isn't better than a monk, it's worse than a commoner no matter how many items you load on it. The original poster has also limited copying the monk (ice assassin) which probably means gate is out too and no action breaking so celerity is out too.

So, can you make a wizard better or can you only list a few spells hope for the best? Like DMVerdandi ends with so on and so forth, ok but how is that better if you plan on spending a standard action casting divine power for every encounter? It doesn't actually answer the question, it just assumes mentioning a few spells, ignoring cost, duration, effectiveness is enough to cover an entire class with a huge elephant in the room holding a neon sign that says "What about the other things besides damage?"

So, can you make a wizard better at being a monk than a monk or do I have to continue feeding you hints and teach you how because you can't?

[Threadnaught]

How are those things even remotely equivalent?

It's something that could be referred to as applying common sense to the rules.

Monks are awesome at punching things, but they're terrible at punching things.
Something born/created on another Plane is a native to the Material Plane because of it's species, no matter where they were born/created.

Otherwise you could visit every afterlife and cast Dismissal on everyone who died and it's like a cheap True Resurrection.
Creatures gain the Extraplanar Subtype when on any Plane other than their Plane of origin. If they are Outsiders, they have the Native Subtype when on their Plane of origin.


Sometimes the rules don't go into enough detail to explain what happens and in this case, we have scarce details about what happens when a creature is born on another Plane to the majority of its species.

[Magma Armor0]

Imitating Monk features is just a third of the criteria. The first two can be accomplished : first one is a given, then second one with the right spell choices and feats.

What can single-classed monks supposedly do? What are their party roles?

DPR
Skirmisher
Grappler/Tripper
BFC(?)
Scout
Sneak
Stun/SoD(?)
Becoming tough as nails to harm (and to help via SR:Y magic)


If your Wizard can do all of those when it matters, then that seems good enough for its purpose.

Okay, let's try.

Haste spell emulates flurry.
Monk Belt gives us IUS and Wis to AC. Enlarge person then pumps the size, which in turn increases the damage of unarmed strikes.

Stunning fist replaced by color spray at low levels, and other save or sucks abound.

Polymorph into....giant squid is the usual grappler, right? (I've never built a wizard before.)


Invisibility and expeditious retreat give us sneaky scouting abilities.

What am I missing?

Keep in mind this is just preliminary.

[Mato]

What am I missing?A couple things but it's starting to take shape.

So far, in combination, you've got the martial wizard which takes improved/superior unarmed strike and any 3 fighter feats, greater mighty wallop (#rd). Unarmed at this point is still significantly lower but getting there. Since you cannot persist haste (3rd) you're looking at a few slots spent there, there is a personal swift version but that's all the ranger list I think, so how would that problem be solved?

I solved the minors for you, ethereal jaunt (7th), dimensional door (4th), tongues (3rd), evasion (ring of, 40,000 gold), feather fall (1st) to cover most of the miscellaneous class features a monk has. Regarding ACFs like spell reflection you'll need friendly fire (4th), wild monk means shapechange/polymorph (9th/4th), the extra d6s means wreath of flames (2nd), with at least one save or die and a few slots dedicated to save or suck.

You still need healing, undead & negative energy probably works the best but warforged & repair can work, stealth, mobility, various levels of protection such as enhanced saves and spell resistance. All of these things come with feat and spell slot costs, mostly spells of course, and then you still have the stuff I missed like grappling.

There is only so many resources in a single build and it when you really try to make the wizard really cover the monk do those limitations become apparent and the puzzle of fitting everything together takes it's shape.

[aleucard]

I have an idea to make this more coherent.

The people who are in favor of the Monk here make a Monk build up to level 20, 32 point buy (you technically can use higher, but the Wizard has equal access), WBL (ditto), and equal access to the books (equal number of accessed books (default is PHB, DMG, MM, and the SRD; Dragon Magazine is all considered one book but is only accessible to the Wizard if the Monk uses it (you pull anything from one, both of you have blanket access)). Tell us the key things regarding the class and anything you think is useful, and the Wizards team is tasked with replicating (not just obviating) those things to at least "good enough" status. If there's a disagreement on the utility of a certain thing, then the readers (not the builders) vote on it.

EDIT: In case you're wondering, I'm wanting the Monk team to make the first one because they'd logically have more appreciation for the various nuances of the class, and can bring them to the attention of the rest of us.

Also, as another rule, the more the Monk team sticks to Monk levels only, the more the Wizard team has to stick to Wizard levels only. Equal numbers of non-Monk and Non-Wizard classes can be taken, but the Monk team sets the max amount.

[torrasque666]

I have an idea to make this more coherent.

The people who are in favor of the Monk here make a Monk build up to level 20, 32 point buy (you technically can use higher, but the Wizard has equal access), WBL (ditto), and equal access to the books (equal number of accessed books (default is PHB, DMG, MM, and the SRD; Dragon Magazine is all considered one book but is only accessible to the Wizard if the Monk uses it (you pull anything from one, both of you have blanket access)). Tell us the key things regarding the class and anything you think is useful, and the Wizards team is tasked with replicating (not just obviating) those things to at least "good enough" status. If there's a disagreement on the utility of a certain thing, then the readers (not the builders) vote on it.

EDIT: In case you're wondering, I'm wanting the Monk team to make the first one because they'd logically have more appreciation for the various nuances of the class, and can bring them to the attention of the rest of us.

Also, as another rule, the more the Monk team sticks to Monk levels only, the more the Wizard team has to stick to Wizard levels only. Equal numbers of non-Monk and Non-Wizard classes can be taken, but the Monk team sets the max amount.
I am in favor of this challenge. If I had any skill in monk building I'd join in, simply because I hate wizards and want to feed them their spellbook for once.



Monk Belt gives us IUS and Wis to AC. Enlarge person then pumps the size, which in turn increases the damage of unarmed strikes.

Nitpick, Monk's Belt gives you the damage of a 5th level monk. IUS is not damage. Hence, you don't get IUS just for putting on a rope belt.

[Mato]

That might be too much of a vs thread which I don't think anyone really wants.

You could chart the monk's features out then score a build based on how many things they cover.
Ability scores: you thought a normal monk was mad...
Base attack: divine power (divine only)
Monk's higher saves:
Monk's balance & tumble to avoid attacks of opportunity:
Monk's hide & move silently:
Monk's grapple:
3 Bonus feats: martial wizard gives 5.
AC bonus: monk's belt.
Flurry of blows/unarmed strike: improved/greater unarmed strike, greater mighty wallop (3rd), haste (3rd*).
Evasion: magic item
Improved evasion:
Still mind:
Ki strike(adamantine):
Slow fall: feather fall (1st)
Purity of body: undead?
Wholeness of body:
Diamond body: undead?
Abundant step: dimensional door (4th)
Diamond soul: spell resistance (5th*)
Quivering palm: a 9th level save or die.
Timeless body: dragonwrought kobold.
Tongue of the sun and moon: tongues (3rd*)
Empty body: ethereal jaunt (7th)
Perfect self: shapechange (9th*)?
=====
Some possible alternative class features to plan for
Decisive strike:
Draconic fist and holy strike: wreath of flames (2nd*)
Invisible Fist: blink (3rd*)
Locate creature:
Resistant Body:
Shadow blend:
Spell reflection: friendly fire (4th*)
Wall walker: spider climb (2nd*)
=====
Dragon's variants (that I know of)
Chaos: additional attacks
Holy: turn undead, smite evil, aura of courage
Sidewinder: obtain sneak attack
Wild: shapechange to match shape (9th*)
I tried marking all the spells you'll need to cast several times during the day with an asterisk. Four encounters per day is a good means to suggest you'll need at least four prepared spells of each at the minimum (and you're goal is to be better than the monk, not match it). Persist as I keep saying would be an enormous boon.

New hint, a dragonwrought kobold is immune to psychical penalties from aging. I figured you guys would get hung up on that one for quite a while.

[Bluydee]

Both teams make Monk 1/Wizard 19. Done.

[Mato]

Both teams make Monk 1/Wizard 19. Done.Needs more enlightened fist. ;)

[ben-zayb]

I'm wondering...does the standard monk in this thought exercise allowed WBL mancy to make his 2d10 fists significantly relevant? Is the monk in this case playing pseudocaster as well with wands, scrolls, etc?

[aleucard]

I'm wondering...does the standard monk in this thought exercise allowed WBL mancy to make his 2d10 fists significantly relevant? Is the monk in this case playing pseudocaster as well with wands, scrolls, etc?

I'm going to try and break this up into as many unique parts as I can come up with.

Monks have the WBL of whatever level they end up operating at, from level 7 (most are in agreement that Wizards have problems with keeping up normally prior to this point, so this looks like a valid point of origin) to level 20 (because Level 21 begins Epic, and that is a clusterf@#$ I don't think any of us is willing to get involved in).

If a Monk uses some method to breach WBL, then the Wizard is allowed to use that method as well. If they get access earlier, then they are allowed to use that method earlier. We can call each level to need 1 year to achieve, so as to extrapolate exactly how much GP is obtained from the method by time of measurement, or we can just call it functionally infinite (save for whichever gets access first being considered to have more) and have done with that (because holy [BLEEP] that's a lot of math).

If a Monk uses a specific item from a book, that is considered one book that the Monk has used, and thus counts for determining how much of the 3.5 library can be brought into play.

If a Monk uses custom item rules (or some relative, like homebrew items), the Wizard is allowed to use those same mechanics. If using homebrew items, determine the price by comparing to equally powerful items and, if there are multiple, take the average. Assume a smart DM with a mind towards balancing the Op-Level of both sides.

The Monk is advised to keep the caster-replication by way of WBL to an absolute minimum, since at that point an equally-leveled Expert could probably do the same or better, and then we're not gauging the Monk class are we?

[ZamielVanWeber]

If they are Outsiders, they have the Native Subtype when on their Plane of origin..

Off topic, sorry, but this is wrong. The native subtype refers specifically to outsiders native to the material plane. A balor on the Abyss is an outsider. An balor on the material is an outsider (extraplanar). A janni on the material is an outsider (native) and a janni on the Abyss is an outsider (native, extraplanar).

[Threadnaught]

Off topic, sorry, but this is wrong. The native subtype refers specifically to outsiders native to the material plane.

But then what happens to an Elf born in Celestia? Do they still have the Extraplanar Subtype when on their native Plane?

[Grim Portent]

But then what happens to an Elf born in Celestia? Do they still have the Extraplanar Subtype when on their native Plane?

If memory serves they count as native (not [Native]) when on Celestia but are Humanoid (Elf, Extraplanar) on any other plane.

[atemu1234]

But then what happens to an Elf born in Celestia? Do they still have the Extraplanar Subtype when on their native Plane?

No clue; more oft than not I ignore extraplanar rules.

[Synar]

question: what point buy should I use as a basis? would 32 pb be accurate?

Yeah, it should be fine.
And all books are fine.

Also, sorry everyone for the late posting, I kind of though that no one would be interested considering the first answers. :smallbiggrin:
And thanks Mato for having managed the thread.


However, I guess I should maybe correct a case of bad wording : the goal is to create the best (and more original) martial artist you can using a wizard, not just one better than a monk. Beating the monk is only one part of the challenge.
And spellcasting in combat may be fine, as long as you believe you keep a martial artist flavor.


P.S.:About action economy breakers, I was not thinking of celerity, but of casting one hundreds spells with one free action becase "Contigency!". I mean, it would be a nice tactic in itself, if the whole power of wizards in this forums didn't seem to repose on that one feat. Also ice assassin and simulacrum. Come on, try coming up with some more original tools.

[Mato]

And thanks Mato for having managed the thread.No problem, I have a huge interest in the thread.

Of course, I was going to try cranking up the end submission for my own diabolical purposes. The BBEG is a monk? Really? Maybe. :smallamused:

[Nightraiderx]

Well Mato, here's what I have so far (in note form) Only way a wizard is going to out-monk a monk is through deliberate use of persist spell.

Dragon-Blooded Human Necropolitan
Martial, Eidiatic Wizard 5/Ultimate Magus 10/Abjurrant champ 4
cL 26 HD 19
HP
12 + 18 x 6.5 + int modifier (+12) x 19 = 357 HP

Ac: 10 + 6 (greater mage armor) + 9 (persisted shield) + 10 natural (zodar) +5 deflection (zodar) + 7 dex = 47 Ac

Touch Ac 37
FF Ac 40

saves:
Fort 5+8 (ruin delver's fortune)= 13 (no con) = 13 (before items)
Ref 5+8 (ruin delver's fortune) =13 (+7 dex) = 20 (before items)
Will 15+8 (ruin delver's fortune) =23 (+8 wis) = 31 (before items)


Strength 7 (25 Zodar) + 16 enhancement (Bite of the Werebear) + 8 size (righteous might) = 49 (+19) Str
Dex 8 (16 Zodar) +6 (enhancement) = 24 (+7 Dex)
con 5 (-)
Int 18 (+5) level (+5) book (+6) enhancement = 34 (+12)
Wis 16 (+4) book (+6) enhancement = 26 (+8)
cha 16 (+4) book (+6) enhancement = 26 (+8)

Spontaneous Divination
H Arcane Disciple (competition Domain)
1 Fairy initiate: Passions
W1. Improved Unarmed Strike
3 Extend Spell
Spontaneous Divination
6: Reserves of Strength
9: Practical Metamagic (persist)
B14: Quicken Spell
15: Arcane Strike
18: Snap Kick

Spells
1 4+3 =7
2 4+3 =7 [Heroics]
3 4+3 =7 [Mighty Wallop, Greater] [Magic Weapon, Greater] [Magic Weapon, Greater]
4 4+3 =7 [Persisted Divine Power]
5 4+2 =6 [4 UM] [Persisted True Sight] [Persisted Righteous Might]
6 4+2 =6 [4 UM] [Spectral Touch]
7 4+2 =6 [Persisted Bite of the Werebear] [Ethereal Jaunt] [Synostodweomer]
8 4+2 =6
9 4+1 =5 [Persisted Haste] [Persisted Shapechange]

5+int 1st Nerveskitter, Shield
4 2nd Heroics (two-weapon fighting), Wraithstrike
4 3rd Tongues, Haste,Greater Mighty Wallop, Magic Weapon (Greater)
4 4th
4 5th
4 6th Spectral Touch,
4 7th Synostodweomer, Bite of the Werebear, Ethereal jaunt
4 8th Invisibility, Superior Invisibility, Mind Blank (still mind),
4 9th Shapechange, Time Stop,

12 extra spells known

8 Spells Persisted by Ultimate Magus
4 Divine Power
7 Bite of the Werebear
9 Shapechange (Zodar Str 25/Dex 16 construct)
4 Ruin Delver's Fortune (x3) (Luck bonus to fort/ref/will, evasion, immune poison, immune to fear)
5 Righteous Might (Size bonuses)
5 True Sight (scouting along with using greater invisibility to scout when needed)

Regular Persisted:
Haste (3rd) [9th level slot]
Shield (1st) [7th level slot]

Hour long spells:
Mage Armor: Greater (+6 Ac)



Items Bought so far:
Golves of Balance (Two weapon fighting, becomes greater twf)
Book of Intelligence +5
Book of charisma +4
Book of wisdom +4


Full attack sequence [Dual Wield Scorpion Kama's (made into gauntlets for style)]
Base Attack 19/14/9/4
Magic Weapon cast twice on scorpion kama gauntlets (+6 enhancement bonus)
Str +19
Improved Two-weapon fighting 17/17/12/12/9/4
Snap Kick + TWF 15/15/15/12/12/9/4
Haste buff: 15/15/15/15/12/12/9/4

Full unarmed Attack bonus attack
40/40/40/40/35/35/30/25

(Touch attacks if using wraith strike)

Damage:
8d6 (collosal) +19 +6 +5 (collision enhancement) = 56 main hand strike / 46 Off hand Strike

Full damage
56 X 8 + 46 x 2 = 540 damage if every strike connects.

(Note character does have power attack from bite of the wearbear)

[Threadnaught]

If memory serves they count as native (not [Native]) when on Celestia but are Humanoid (Elf, Extraplanar) on any other plane.

And that is the kind of logic I'd attempt to use with becoming Undead on another Plane.


Entirely because the rules aren't too specific in this regard.

[aleucard]

As far as actual builds go, I think we should have the people who are on Team Monk make a build first, so we have an idea of what we're supposed to beat. This also lets said team set the parameters, so we aren't working on entirely separate optimization levels.

[Darkweave31]

Going to need a clarification on what is considered TO here, because one person's TO is another's favorite build.

Mostly interested in fueling metamagic right now since the options available will greatly effect the builds and spell selection.

A) Casting planar bubble on an animated object created on a demiplane with enhanced magic (persist, extend, etc.)... This is my personal favorite (well, a similar rendition of it)
B) Incantatrix/spelldancer/etc
C) Circle Magic
D) Divine Metamagic

[aleucard]

Going to need a clarification on what is considered TO here, because one person's TO is another's favorite build.

Mostly interested in fueling metamagic right now since the options available will greatly effect the builds and spell selection.

A) Casting planar bubble on an animated object created on a demiplane with enhanced magic (persist, extend, etc.)... This is my personal favorite (well, a similar rendition of it)
B) Incantatrix/spelldancer/etc
C) Circle Magic
D) Divine Metamagic

It's considered TO on the Wizard's side if it takes more Op-Fu than the proposed Monk build. Monk build has the sky as the limit, but the builders should remember that certain things are universal and we're testing the Monk Class first and foremost.

[Mato]

Well Mato, here's what I have so far (in note form) Only way a wizard is going to out-monk a monk is through deliberate use of persist spell.

It looks pretty good. I think the list form before would be a nice score sheet and I know you hit up most of them. :)

[ericgrau]

I think this should involve a full build and distinguishing hour/level, 10 min/level and rnd/level buffs. Hour/level you can have up 24 hours so they can be added directly into your stats. 10 min/level not as often, and rnd/level you only get half the time unless you waste a round of attacks. So the net gain is not as high on 10 min/level and rnd/level and they need to be distinguished from hour/level. Persist and quicken might be nice work-arounds though.

EDIT: Nightraiderx seems to have it covered though with liberal persist. Nice

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Just for reference, here's (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=13119) what the gold standard for a grapple-focused wizard was 8 years ago or so, with nothing TO or really cheesy. That was posted probably before a bunch of FR splats came out, shortly after Spell Compendium came out, and definitely before ToB came out, and doesn't use up very many resources to be amazing at grappling, so it should be pretty trivial to add on other stuff to meet this challenge.

Here goes:

Start with a dragonwrought kobold martial wizard 19/spelldancer 1 using the same grappling spells and feats from the above link. Using Mato's benchmarks:


Damage
The monk can easily obtain 12d8+str+wsa in the higher levels. He has two additional attacks from flurry and is extremely likely to take snap kick giving him six attacks per round. You need to reliably deal 324+ damage per round with at least 108+ damage when responding to an attack of opportunity. This is not a charging-related figure.

Girallon's blessing from SpC gets you up to four claws at full BAB for 1d4+Str plus rend for 2d4+1.5*Str. Evard's menacing tentacles from PHB2 give you two more attacks for 1d8+Str, made as free actions on your turn, and two more AoOs. Flaying tendrils from CMage gives you four more attacks for 1d4+Str, obviously as secondary attacks after your claws. Greater mighty wallop boosts those up to Colossal damage, for 3d6 claws and tendrils and 6d6 tentacles. So that's 10 attacks at [full BAB]/[full BAB]/[full BAB]/[full BAB]/[full BAB]/[full BAB]/[full BAB-5]/[full BAB-5]. The wizard's full BAB is behind the monk's by 5, but casting bite of the werebear for a +16 enhancement bonus to Str makes us come out ahead by +3...and that incidentally grants him two more claws and a bite (at -2, as if he had Multiattack) and a virtual Power Attack.

Assuming a starting Str of 16, we have an attack routine of +21/+21/+21/+21/+21/+21/+19/+16/+16/+16/+16 for damage of 8*(3d6+10) + 4*(6d6+10) + (12d6+5) + (1d4+15), for an average of 164+124+47+17 = 352 on a full attack (385, if he Power Attacks for -3 to match the monk's BAB, but I'm assuming the monk would have a Str enhancement item so it's a wash). That beats the monk's average damage by a good 30 points.

He can AoO with his bite for 12d6+5, which only averages 47, but the tentacles can each make an individual AoO against the same provoking opportunity (as they are specifically their own creatures with their own actions) for another 2*(3d6+10), average 41 together, and the wizard can give himself Snap Kick with heroics in addition to the Superior Unarmed Strike he presumably already has as an unarmed grappler for another attack at 8d6+5, average 33. That totals 121 average damage on an AoO, once again beating the monk, this time by ~20 points.


Mobility
You need 5 ranks in balance, reliably beat a dc 15 tumble check, and have a high land speed to move around the battle field with some some confidence. Easy teleportation would work as a substitution of course.

Greater dimension door (SpC) for a 75-foot teleport as a move action each round covers this easily, though it does have the drawback of not letting you attack after the teleport, so flight of the dragon (SpC) + greater wings of air (SpC) for a fly speed of 180 (perfect) should suffice to let him move aroud quickly without needing to Balance and Tumble everywhere.


Stealth
Invisibility is only 1/2 the equation, you also need to overcome listen checks. Blink, displacement, and mirror image are a must if anyone mentions the monk has any alternative class features.

Alter self into a skulk (RoD) + nightstalker's transformation (SpC) gives you a +20 Hide and +13 Move Silently, on top of the benefits of invisibility, and at high levels superior invisibility completely masks sight, sound, and scent.


Protection
Do you have immunity to poison or disease? Undeath can help.

Or just veil of undeath (SpC).


You'll need easily ignored damage reduction,[quote]

As the frost (PHB2) grants DR 10/magic and piercing (on top of cold immunity and a damaging cold aura). I hope that's not too difficult to ignore?

[quote] semi-decent spell resistance

The same level the monk gets his SR 10+level, the wizard can cast spell resistance by way of limited wish for SR 12+level.


and a way to heal your self.

Synostodweomer (SpC) works, if very inefficiently, but since the monk maxes out at 40 HP healed per day we can easily beat that with summon monster VII for 1d3 bralani eladrin with two cure serious wounds per day each at CL 6 (average 55 HP healed). Or use a few other summons with heals, or Arcane Discipline (Healing) with its one cure light wounds, cure moderate wounds, and cure serious wounds per day (average 57 HP healed at CL 20), or use a few false lifes per day to avoid the need for healing, or heal offensively with vampiric touch, or pick up one of the many cheap self-healing items in MIC...really, self-healing is easy for anyone.


Don't forget the wizard's fortitude and reflex saves are already 6 points behind the monk's.

Superior resistance (SpC) makes up for that gap (while boosting the wizard's already-prodigious Will saves).


The often forgot traits
You need ethereal jaunt, dimensional door, tongues, evasion, feather fall, with reservations of friendly fire, shapechange, save or die(s), and bonus d6s to your damage. Often overlooked but they require precious spell slots to be dedicated to them.

Ethereal jaunt, dimension door, tongues, feather fall, and shapechange are on the wizard list already, Evasion comes by the abovementioned nightstalker's transformation or by ruin delver's fortune (SpC), he doesn't need bonus damage to outdo the monk, and he has his choice of SoDs.


Use Spelldancer to persist all buffs (except nightstalker's transformation since that shuts down your spells, just cast that when needed for stealth and use ruin delver's fortune when an unexpected need for Evasion comes up), and there you have it.

The wizard needs to spend 11 feats (1 for Dragonwrought, 4 to qualify for Spelldancer, 2 on Extend and Persist Spell, 2 on Improved and Superior Unarmed Strike, 2 on Improved Grapple and Aberration Blood), which he can get with his 7 normal level feats and 5 martial wizard bonus feats with 1 feat slot left to spare.

He needs to spend just half his daily allotment of spells (24 persisted buffs [the 18 mentioned above plus the standard greater mage armor, displacement, etc.] plus let's say at most 2 buffs per encounter that we don't want to persist, for 32 spells per day of the 64 spells a 20th-level wizard with a 36 Int [18 base + 2 racial + 5 level + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement] gets) on being a monk++, leaving him a good 28 spells per day for utility and generally "being a wizard".

----------------------

Now, let's look at Mato's "grading" spoiler and see how this wizard did. Well, there are a few other factors to duplicating a monk in there (which I would consider superficial or less important) that can be covered as well with a few tweaks.

This wizard has spent only 20% of WBL, and that on Int-boosters, to prove that this can all be done through class features alone; swapping out the headband of intellect +6 for a belt of magnificence +6 and planar binding a genie for +5 inherent to all scores covers Mato's MAD concerns (not that a monk is getting a +6 enhancement bonus to all of his physical stats, since he'll need to buy a ton of other gear to shore up his other weaknesses).

Worrying about Decisive Strike isn't too much of an issue, as the monk's full attack damage stays basically the same (if not drops) while a mass snake's swiftness will handle doubling the wizard's AoO damage if he really really needs that.

This wizard doesn't fully duplicate the Holy Monk ACF, but Smite Evil doesn't add enough damage to out-damage this wizard, veil of undeath covers fear immunity, and since the monk can't either boost Turn Undead to stupidly high effective cleric levels for its intended usage or abuse Divine Metamagic there's nothing the wizard needs to do to out-match it; basic blasting spells and disintegrat will handle undead just fine.

Ninja edit: After writing this all up, I noticed that Nightraiderx has already provided an excellent build stub, which I didn't catch before seeing ericgrau's edit since I skimmed over his spoiler. :smallredface: The spell loadouts look pretty similar, by the nature of the challenge, but I think this build stub is different enough to have been worth writing up.

[animewatcha]

Wizard shapechanges into 20 monk. Gaining the monk abilities. Spells and buffs added to enhance atleast most features chasing perfection for the MADness and saving on belt of Magnificence. Haste adding to attack rolls, extra attack for 'full attack', little extra speed, little extra AC. One of the biggest monk negating things is Flight. Many of the buffs ( like overland flight and fly are cast prior to save an action in combat ). Monk usually requires melee. It is usually wise to priorly prepare to prevent piss-poor performance. Wizard does that ahead and sometimes uses own opponent's thing against them. People casually mention spells and what not because many have a long duration ( 10 min / level or heck hour / level ) or heck can be cast in battle in safety.

Monks have to rely on feats / magic items to emulate effects that can be duplicated by spells. Taking up equipment slots and money that can be hard for them to earn on a reliable basis while a wizard ports to enemy camp and blasts them to kingdom come to take their stuff several times a day then ports back to own demiplane or whatever.

Also, action economy breaking is not so much the celerity thing ( once in a while ), but more the crusader infinite turn thing ( dunno how this is done, but seen it mentioned a few times ) or persistent time stop ( WOTC screwing up RAW ).

Also, monk doing 12d8 per punch requires significant investment on non-monk things. Might as well be 'monk begging spellcaster to help him fight spellcaster'.

Sidenote- This team monk and team wizard thing. You are gonna need to upfront on certain combinations to be banned. Shapechange one of the main big things. Also, you got the alter self thing to turn into the ancestor dwarf statue thing from 3.5 archive article with the 18 Natural armor. Scintillating scales spell from draconomicon ( I believe this is the source, spell that turns natural armor into deflection ac ) so wind up with 18 deflection ( monk ac bonus with crack, cocaine, esctasy, etc. ).

[Nightraiderx]

EDIT: Nightraiderx seems to have it covered though with liberal persist. Nice



Ninja edit: After writing this all up, I noticed that Nightraiderx has already provided an excellent build stub, which I didn't catch before seeing ericgrau's edit since I skimmed over his spoiler. :smallredface: The spell loadouts look pretty similar, by the nature of the challenge, but I think this build stub is different enough to have been worth writing up.


:smallredface: oh your guys, I am horrible with wizards and I only know to buff and smack face with things. It's not completely finished and my spell system mastery isn't as high as everyone else here. I did take the liberty of adding the suggestions but there are a few things I am missing:

SOD: Can't seem to find a suitable 9th for it.
Spell Resistance: The spell mentioned is a cleric/ domain spell, I'm not sure how to transfer on that. (already a bit limited being undead and finding a god that fits the glory domain I think i had).

I used zodar for the physical stats and the defensive stats, not the wish abuse, also immunities due to contruct (immune to disease) and used mind blank to cover still mind. Not sure how subtype works with shapchange.

[Darkweave31]

Isn't the purpose of this thread to create a wizard that best fits the role of martial artist rather than one that can copy all of the monk's class features? Or did I misinterpret Synar when he clarified:


the goal is to create the best (and more original) martial artist you can using a wizard, not just one better than a monk.

[animewatcha]

And one of the best ways to learn about it would be to copy everything and see how spells and such would interact with it. Like blood wind with flurry of blows.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Isn't the purpose of this thread to create a wizard that best fits the role of martial artist rather than one that can copy all of the monk's class features? Or did I misinterpret Synar when he clarified:

I was going with the original challenge to out-monk the monk because it's what everyone else was talking about for the first half of the thread, and it's a fun challenge to try to squeeze in all the monk's random abilities.

Also because "best martial artist" is so incredibly subjective that we'd need some criteria for "best" to be specified before trying to build it. Does "best" mean most flashy, most lethal, most versatile? Should it look like it came out of an anime, a Chinese drama, or a Jackie Chan movie? Out-martial-artist-ing a monk with any one of those concepts would be pretty straightforward, but we need to know which to build towards first.

[Synar]

I was going with the original challenge to out-monk the monk because it's what everyone else was talking about for the first half of the thread, and it's a fun challenge to try to squeeze in all the monk's random abilities.

Also because "best martial artist" is so incredibly subjective that we'd need some criteria for "best" to be specified before trying to build it. Does "best" mean most flashy, most lethal, most versatile? Should it look like it came out of an anime, a Chinese drama, or a Jackie Chan movie? Out-martial-artist-ing a monk with any one of those concepts would be pretty straightforward, but we need to know which to build towards first.

The one you prefer! You're free!
But more seriously, I agree than basing oneself on a milestone can help for reference : there, the monk.
And thanks guys for all the participation!