3.5 Build a challenger to a Tainted Scholar?

[graeylin]

Playing for fun in an arena challenge game, and a player snagged up a WONDERFUL contender: A Wizard/Tainted Scholar/Inantratix. He's hellborn (i think... +0 outsider, no con score or something), and he's kicking butt.

Basically, the TS allows him to increase his casting stat to near infinite levels, because he's immune to the taint damage. And, it seems he can cast spells and the more he casts, the more he can cast again (TS ability?). Mostly now, he enters the arena, starts sandstorms and walling people off, and then picks them apart with blasty spells that require DC 60's or so to pass. I am sure with all the spells he has, he has more tactics (flight, invisibility, etc.), but he hasn't needed them yet.

He is a 9th level PC (he's leveled up through the arena challenges). However, a new PC will have to be 6th level (so that's a challenge too... the new PC could take on folks for a bit before going H2H, and gain a couple levels, possibly).

So, looking for something that could at least challenge him a bit, and make him sweat, without it being Pun-Pun. 3.5 material, ANY WOTC printed material (so Dragon Magazine is allowed), but NO TEMPLATES. And, you have 6K starting gold.

Cheese is allowed, but I am sure that piling it as high as Pun-Pun will draw cries of "foul", so I would like to limit it to playable optimization, and not have theoretical ops.

[Renen]

You cant beat him.
Here's why:
1) He will go first, because celerity
2) He will 1shot you with a save or die effect (you will NOT save)
3) if you live past round 1, you wont have NEARLY enough time to fina a way to kill him.
Blasting is obviously out.
His saves are too high to hit, and thats even if you can get past:
Illusions, invisibilities, possible invulnerabilities, contingencies, etc. Oh, and there are so many ways to do "stat x to saves, or other defense".

So the only way to win is Pun Pun, or similar cheese. Why? Because TS is already at pun-pun level cheese.
Trust me.

[graeylin]

Yeah, i was kind of afraid TS with the ignore the penalty ability was close to Pun-Pun.

sigh.

Can we come up with anything that can even get close? He's challenged up to three other PC's at a time. So, maybe some psion cheese, and another Tainted Scholar (can they be dispellers?)...

could something stand toe to toe and counterspell him? And let the allies move in and do something?

[Vhaidara]

I would like to limit it to playable optimization, and not have theoretical ops.

Disqualify him on these grounds :smalltongue:

[Renen]

Yeah, i was kind of afraid TS with the ignore the penalty ability was close to Pun-Pun.

sigh.

Can we come up with anything that can even get close? He's challenged up to three other PC's at a time. So, maybe some psion cheese, and another Tainted Scholar (can they be dispellers?)...

could something stand toe to toe and counterspell him? And let the allies move in and do something?

Welll... you can try getting planar shepard. He is still invincible, but you can choose a custon time plane with faaaaaaaast time.

Or you know... diplomancy a god and tell em to end his existence.

[Flickerdart]

I'm betting he hasn't thought of antimagic precautions. Buy a scroll, get some method of Ex flight, and eat him alive.

[Renen]

I bet he has. Heck, a simple tinfoil hat beats AMF

[Doc_Maynot]

Crafted and paid for Contingent Spell of Ocular Trait Removal, targeting the Taint Suppression ability of the next tainted sorcerer to target you with a spell.
If it hits, they should be insta-gibbed due to having forced him to take all the taint damage before he even can cast a spell on you.
If not: try, try again.

[Flickerdart]

I bet he has. Heck, a simple tinfoil hat beats AMF
I suspect that the player just looked up "what is the strongest D&D build" and picked one that seemed cool. Plus, tinfoil hat is not a win condition - all it does is break LoE/LoS, but unless he has a contingency of the "when my hat deploys, teleport me out" variety (in which case he probably counts as forfeiting, unless it's a Dimension Door somewhere nearby), you can just immediately punch through the hat and eat him alive.

[graeylin]

So, level 5 druid, 1 planar shephard? I'll look into that, thanks.

Ocular Trait Removal? I have no idea where to find that spell/ability. Can you point me in some direction?

[Doc_Maynot]

So, level 5 druid, 1 planar shephard? I'll look into that, thanks.

Ocular Trait Removal? I have no idea where to find that spell/ability. Can you point me in some direction?

Ocular Spell is a metamagic that turns a touch attack into a 30ft ray, Trait Removal is a 5th level Wiz/Sorc Spell (Why you pay for the crafted contingent spell) that removes one extradorinary or supernatural ability of your choice from the target. (Have to make a Touch attack, beat SR, and their Fort Save. I realize it's a hail mary, but just keep trying it until it sticks.)

Ocular Spell is from Lords of Madness IIRC, and Trait Removal is a spell from Serpent Kingdoms.
As far as I see, it's like your only chance.

[Renen]

Yeh, neither of those will work. While I cant be quite sure if its the same build I seen before, since OP said its wizard...
but I saw one thats Sorcerer before (or maybe it WAS a wizard but keyed off off CHA somehow).

He then had the mark of nessus.

Now go look up that feat, and then remember how high his CHA is... the re-read the feat.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Wait, color me confused, but doesn't Tainted Scholar only give you immunity to the physical effects of taint? Unless he is a necropolitan that massive taint score will drive him permanently insane.

[Renen]

So? he only needs to be a killing machine.
And I think having the [evil] tag also does things...

[ZamielVanWeber]

Self destructing due to taint acquisition is a definite possibility. Either way the more information the better.

[graeylin]

Yes, Renen, he might have been sorcerer... and he definitely has the mark of Nessus.

[Renen]

How to tell you need pun pun: your enemy makes you roll a will save if you target him with anything thats a spell or "attack".
Though "I go make a deal with Asmo" would be a legit method in a normal campaign, to make asmo revoke his protection

[One Step Two]

Okay, this idea might be a little clunky, but here's how we go:

Psionic Artificer 6, with a Djore of Ego whip, and the Transdimensional Power Metapsionic feat, and Psicrystal Affinity.
The tricky part, is getting to the ethereal plane, hiring a caster, or aquiring a power stone should be within their wealth, and I mean for a good while, not just for a few rounds. Plane shift would be ideal.

See, this is less of an arena challenger, and more an assassin. Using a Psicrystal with Mindsight hidden as a plain old rock in the arena. And using the telepathic link that it shares information about what is happening in the arena. The Artificer is laying flat 2-3 feet inside/under the ground. Their actions every other turn is to Stand up, Shoot the wizard with the Djore Ego Whip using Metapsionic Spell trigger to make it transdimensional, and then fall Prone back into the ground as a free action, effectively removing them from sight, then spending the alternate turns gaining their psionic focus back. Should the wizard have Resillient sphere perpared for a ready action, this would be your only problem, but he cannot engage you if he does so, and your own readied action to escape. Magic missiles are handled with a Shield spell from a scroll, or a brooch of shielding.

Burn his charisma to nothing. I assume a knockout is enough to account for a victory in the arena? Let another combatant coup de grace him if necessary, otherwise use another, cheaper, djore to whittle down his hit points.

Enjoy!

[sreservoir]

would lucid dreaming help here

[Renen]

Xept you know... to make any "attack" vs him u need to pass an impossibly high will save...

[One Step Two]

Xept you know... to make any "attack" vs him u need to pass an impossibly high will save...

The attack is save for half. You'll be pinging him for 1-2 points of damage each time, unless he has Mettle somehow. Depending on how stats have been done, I imagine he has dumped charisma as an optimised wizard.

Edit: Does Tainted scholar grant SR?

[Extra Anchovies]

Basically, the TS allows him to increase his casting stat to near infinite levels, because he's immune to the taint damage.

This is false. He's immune to physical taint effects. Not to mental taint effects. Half his taint score is still applied as a penalty to wisdom.

[One Step Two]

This is false. He's immune to physical taint effects. Not to mental taint effects. Half his taint score is still applied as a penalty to wisdom.

Awesome, looks like my plan of attrition through mental stat damaged worked after all! Though not necessariy through my actions.

[Renen]

Ok so just to make sure:
I say that
1) You have to roll a will save vs any attack done to him (or spell cast or SP ability) you dont actually care? Because its irrelevamt what you are trying to do. If you are "attacking" him you gotta roll a will save or not be able to attack period.
2) He has [Evil] subtype (Which lets him ignore taint)

When I say those 2 things none of you care. Right?

[Extra Anchovies]

Ok so just to make sure:
I say that
1) You have to roll a will save vs any attack done to him (or spell cast or SP ability) you dont actually care? Because its irrelevamt what you are trying to do. If you are "attacking" him you gotta roll a will save or not be able to attack period.
2) He has [Evil] subtype (Which lets him ignore taint)

When I say those 2 things none of you care. Right?

Oh, this is the HoH taint system. Well.

Evil subtype, you say? Let's see what HoH has to say on [evil] creatures and taint.

Creatures with the Evil subtype and undead creatures are immune to any negative effects from taint. They automatically have effective corruption and depravity scores equal to one-half their Charisma score, +1 for undead or +2 for outsiders. They take no penalties due to these taint scores, but they can use them to qualify for feats or prestige classes (see Chapter 5).

They automatically have effective corruption and depravity scores equal to one-half their Charisma score, +1 for undead or +2 for outsiders.
Whoops. Note that it doesn't say that your effective taint score has a minimum of one-half your Charisma score, it says your effective taint score equals one-half your Charisma score. Can't go up or down. And since that's your effective taint score, that number is used for all taint-based things, regardless of what your actual taint score may be.

Sorry to disappoint, but the Tainted Scholar Evil-subtype trick simply doesn't work.

[ahenobarbi]

What are arena conditions? A sneaky could work well (if you pump your hide & move silently high enough enemy can not know where you are while you kite him to death. But because of the "no templates" rule it will be really painful to gain Hide in Plain Sight at ECL 6 so it might not work well.

Fiend of Possession (relevant handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7518.0)) build might work well: posses various object until enemy runs out of spells (it will happen if you don't let him rest - while his taint increases when he casts spells he doesn't actually get new spell slots until he rests - and that you can prevent) then finish him off.

[Renen]

Oh, this is the HoH taint system. Well.

Evil subtype, you say? Let's see what HoH has to say on [evil] creatures and taint.


Whoops. Note that it doesn't say that your effective taint score has a minimum of one-half your Charisma score, it says your effective taint score equals one-half your Charisma score. Can't go up or down. And since that's your effective taint score, that number is used for all taint-based things, regardless of what your actual taint score may be.

Sorry to disappoint, but the Tainted Scholar Evil-subtype trick simply doesn't work.

Thats one way of thinking. The other is as presented. Both can be argued. But it seems that yours isnt the one used.

But you know... looking at the post... how does he increase the actual casting stat though...

[lord_khaine]

Alright, sounds like an aplication of the rules has made this challenge a lot more doable..?

Now we just need to find a way for a level 6-8 character to defeat a level 9 wizard without using to much stiny cheese.

[Renen]

Well, as I pointed out "the rules" can be applied either way. And in this game the DM is applying them in a way that isnt "favorable"

[Necroticplague]

How about the Symbiot template? Have the Guest be a half-red dragon, half black dragon spellwarped half-fey greenbound phase wasp (with its feat swapped for something more useful), with the Host being a Gheden Human. Then, have the resultant character take the Troll-Blooded and Tireless feats. Even if he has a whole ton of spells, this should be able to win by sheer attrition (simply put: He takes damage. You don't). you might want to dip Forsaker to increase your SR by 11 points, which should help with SoD.

Edit:Crap, missed the part about no templates.

[ahenobarbi]

Edit:Crap, missed the part about no templates.


Yeah, it messes up so many nice builds (for example a nice sneak: Dark Necropolitan Shadow Gnome Rogue x/ Factotum y / Mindbender 1 with Darkstalker, Mindsight and Lifesight). Pity.

[Vhaidara]

But you know... looking at the post... how does he increase the actual casting stat though...

He doesn't boost the actual casting stat. The point of TS is that you get to use your Taint score for your casting stat.

[Extra Anchovies]

He doesn't boost the actual casting stat. The point of TS is that you get to use your Taint score for your casting stat.

And as per Heroes of Horror, regardless of his actual taint score, his effective taint score is one-half his Charisma modifier. So this player is (from how I read it) misapplying the rules. OP should check with the DM/judges/arbitrator on this one.

[Renen]

Anchovies, he isnt misapplying the rules.
Some people just interpret the "1/2 your CHA score" as a starting position from which taint can go up still. It IS a quite valid view.

[One Step Two]

Anchovies, he isnt misapplying the rules.
Some people just interpret the "1/2 your CHA score" as a starting position from which taint can go up still. It IS a quite valid view.

For what it's worth, I think that this is valid, nothing says that which is evil can't get more evil. But could you clarify something for me Renen?



1) You have to roll a will save vs any attack done to him (or spell cast or SP ability) you dont actually care? Because its irrelevamt what you are trying to do. If you are "attacking" him you gotta roll a will save or not be able to attack period.

Can you reference where this comes from? I think I may be skimming my books to keep missing it.

[Renen]

Its the Mark of Nessus feat.

While I was wrong in thinking his taint can be used for it, having high enough CHA score is still a nice way to make the mark work.

[One Step Two]

Its the Mark of Nessus feat.

While I was wrong in thinking his taint can be used for it, having high enough CHA score is still a nice way to make the mark work.

Thanks for that. Okay with in mind, according to the wording of the Mark of Nessus feat, you need to target someone else if you fail the save. You can attempt to attack them again next round, and once you pass the save, you aren't affected by it for 24 hours. Heck, you can even avoid wasting charges on your Djore by shooting someone else by dropping prone, and losing line of sight. Simply trying again next turn.

Now my rough estimates put the DC somewhere in the realm of 23, assuming 18 base Charisma, +2 racial, a +6 item, and +2 from leveling for a total +9 modifier added to 10+1/2 HD. This isn't an easy save, never said it would be, but our artificer has good Will saves, and a use activated item of Empty mind with an augmented ML of 5, means they can boost their will save by +4 as an immediate action. So our artificer with a Good will save and the Empty Mind boost will have a base save of +9, toss in an Owl's wisdom potion beforehand to rock a nice +11 before base wisdom. You should pass the save eventually.

Anything else I need to account for?

[ahenobarbi]

Thanks for that. Okay with in mind, according to the wording of the Mark of Nessus feat, you need to target someone else if you fail the save. You can attempt to attack them again next round, and once you pass the save, you aren't affected by it for 24 hours. Heck, you can even avoid wasting charges on your Djore by shooting someone else by dropping prone, and losing line of sight. Simply trying again next turn.

I'm away from books now but the text of the feat I found on some forum said that if you fail the save you have to pick a different target *or* different action to take. So you could have two wands (one in each hand) if you fail save for attacking with first one try with second. If you fail that saving throw too then try again with the first one. Eventually you'll roll nat 20.

That's a little cheesy but the guy is a Tainted Scholar so in comparison it doesn't look bad.

[Renen]

Well... basically every wizard spell up to the level he can cast. Cuz of his insane taint score he can cast em all

[One Step Two]

Spells that are able to affect a target on the Ethereal Plane from the SRD: Wall of Force, Resillient sphere, Magic Missile. The real problem will likely be a Lesser Globe of Invulnrebility to be honest, but again, this is a fight of attrition, you can afford to wait the 9 rounds for it to expire with a readied action to hit him again the moment it fades.
From the spell compendium: Force Missiles, Force Claw, Orb of Force, Manyjaws et al.

Also, remember that See invisibility doesn't uncover mundane Hide checks. You make no sound on the material plan, and using your ability to partially hide in objects gives you enough cover that his cross-class ranks in Spot (if any) should match your equally poor hide checks, however augmented by your own infusions should be able to match or better him.

I'm not saying this a perfect plan, but it's a solid one, and with luck the trick of constantly dropping into the ground out of his line of sight/effect will keep him confused, specially if you take Psionic Meditation. So on the off turn when you're regaining psionic focus, you can use a second move action to move somewhere else, and hopefully out of his line of sight before you pop up and snipe him again.

[Barbarian Horde]

Nerve skitter (Immediate spell can cast even if flatfooted)<- Set as trigger for High Damage spell contingency. Go first win first

[olelia]

Find a way to become a shambling mound and combat infinite casting stat vs infinite Con.

[graeylin]

Thanks guys, for the ideas so far.

The DM is definitely following the "effective" means 'your starting point' interpretation...

That said, i will explore the mark of nessus wording, to see if there's wiggle room there for different action or second attacks/alternate attacks. That's been a hurdle so far, this might help.

And since we are playing pure cheese... I was thinking of a pixie dragonfire adept, with flyby attack and flyby breath feats. I know the DM will scream about abuse of free attacks, but I will point out *ahem* abuse of Tainted Scholar, and at least, make a point.