No room for Rapid Shot...

[WeaselGuy]

Working on a Master Thrower build, and I need Rapid Shot, but don't really have room for it. Are there any items out that that give it as a bonus feat while worn, similar to how Gloves of the Balanced Hand give Two-Weapon Fighting?

[AvatarVecna]

Without more information, I can't suggest any way of working it into your build. For instance, if you don't have Bloodstorm Blade 4, you're wasting your time, since you're going to need tons of enchanted weapons just to compare to other mundane characters. If you do have it, there's probably some feat you're taking that's not as good for your build as Rapid Shot is, but without seeing the build, I couldn't say for sure what Rapid Shot should replace.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

[WeaselGuy]

I really just wanted to know if there was an item for giving Rapid Shot, but since you asked, here's the build. No Bloodstorm Blade, but no ToB allowed, so there's that.

Nezumi Rokugan Ninja 5/Master Thrower 5/Ninja Spy 10

Strength 16
Dexterity 18
Constitution 16
Intelligence 16
Wisdom 13
Charisma 10

1 Ninja 1 0/0/2 Sneak Attack +1d6, Ninja Dodge +1 Point Blank Shot
2 Ninja 2 0/0/3 Poison Use
3 Ninja 3 1/1/3 Sneak Attack +2d6, Uncanny Dodge Weapon Focus (Shuriken)
4 Ninja 4 1/1/4 Speed of Darkness
5 Ninja 5 1/1/4 Sneak Attack +3d6, Ninja Dodge +2
6 M.T. 6 1/3/4 Quick Draw, Thrown Weapon Trick Precise Shot
7 M.T. 7 1/4/4 Evasion
8 M.T. 8 2/4/5 Thrown Weapon Trick
9 M.T. 9 2/5/5 Snatch Arrows Far Shot
10 M.T. 10 2/5/5 Critical Throw, Thrown Weapon Trick
11 Spy 10 4/7/7 Exotic Weapon, Ki Breath, Poison Use
12 Spy 11 5/8/8 Slow Fall (20), Improved Evasion, Sneak Attack +4d6 Craven
13 Spy 12 5/8/8 Exotic Weapon, Acrobatics (10), Leap of the Clouds
14 Spy 13 6/9/9 Slow Fall (30), Hide in Plain Sight
15 Spy 13 6/9/9 Water Walk, Sneak Attack +5d6 Needle Strike
16 Spy 14 7/10/10 Exotic Weapon, Slow Fall (50)
17 Spy 15 7/10/10 Thousand Faces, Acrobatics (20)
18 Spy 16 8/11/11 Poison Immunity, Sneak Attack +6d6 Improved Critical (Shuriken)
19 Spy 16 8/11/11 Exotic Weapon, Slippery Mind
20 Spy 17 9/12/12 Abundant Step

I haven't chosen my thrown weapon tricks, or my exotic weapon proficiencies, but I know I'll be taking Palm Throw and probably Double Toss Weak Spot. We're starting at level 12, with WBL, and my DM ruled that if I use Aurorum Returning Shuriken, they return to me at the end of the round beginning of the next round and reform the round after during the round, meaning if I have 10 of them, and throw 5 on round 1, the broken pieces return to me at the end of round 1 beginning of round 2, on round 2 I throw my other 5, at the end of round 2 beginning of round 3 those pieces return to me and the pieces from round 1's 5 shuriken reform, allowing me to throw them at the beginning of round 3. Obviously, I need to do a little bit of math to figure out exactly how many shuriken I will need so that I don't run out in future levels.

Additionally, I realize this build isn't the most OP that I could do, but it has flavor. I could switch my race from Nezumi to Strongheart Halfling, use the bonus feat at level 1 to grab Weapon Finesse and then dip Whisperknife at level 11 for Rapid Shot and Improved Uncanny Dodge, then take 9 levels of Ninja Spy, but I don't want to be a Halfling, I want to be a Nezumi!

Also, I've read both the Ninja Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2823.0#top), and the Guide to Silly Shuriken (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10419.0), and even perused making your opponent flat-footed (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12405)...

[Snowbluff]

Take a level of Drow Fighter.

[AvatarVecna]

I really just wanted to know if there was an item for giving Rapid Shot, but since you asked, here's the build. No Bloodstorm Blade, but no ToB allowed, so there's that.

Well! In that case, welcome to the wonderfully strange world of thrown weapon combat, my friend! So, some good news: Rapid Shot is far superior to Weapon Focus (Shuriken); that's my recommendation. And unfortunately, I don't know any way of getting Rapid Shot via items (although I'm sure there's plenty of ways to get attack bonuses, so that's something).

Now for the bad news.

There's a line in the description of the Master Thrower fluff that goes something like this: "Master Throwers are just fools who have invented a fighting style centered around cleverly disarming themselves." This is, unfortunately, a very apt description in normal 3.5 games: enchanting weapons is both necessary and expensive for mundane characters such as yourself; without either a way to temporarily enchant weapons or a way to return them to you.

The returning weapon property only returns the weapon to you at the beginning of the next round; what this means mechanically is that in order to be effective, you need a number of magic returning thrown weapons equal to your number of attacks, or you're not getting your class feature's worth. This can quickly add up in costs; the reason I suggest Bloodstorm Blade 4 is that it reduces the number of weapons you need to 2, and you don't need the returning enchantment on either one.

But wait, it gets even worse! You've chosen to be a shuriken specialist; shuriken are thrown weapons that, for all intents and purposes, are ammunition. This makes them easy to draw, and cheap to enchant. Unfortunately, ammunition is easy to lose and/or destroy when you throw it: it's a 50% chance of losing it when you miss, and a 100% chance of destroying it if you hit. That means that the super-powerful Adamantine Shuriken with +10 worth of magical enchantments that cost you 4k+ gold pieces? As soon as you throw it, just assume you'll never see it again, because odds are you won't.

Seriously, talk with your DM about this: by RAW, your super-magical adamantine ammunition is automatically destroyed by impact if it hits the target. That's bull****. Try to get your DM to houserule a couple things: A) magical and/or special material ammunition isn't destroyed or lost, and B) Returning weapons return to you after they hit, instead of at the beginning of your next turn. The second point is important, but if you can only get your DM to agree to one of them, get them to agree to the first: otherwise, get ready for a career of WBL oppression.

[WeaselGuy]

Well! In that case, welcome to the wonderfully strange world of thrown weapon combat, my friend! So, some good news: Rapid Shot is far superior to Weapon Focus (Shuriken); that's my recommendation. And unfortunately, I don't know any way of getting Rapid Shot via items (although I'm sure there's plenty of ways to get attack bonuses, so that's something).

Now for the bad news.

There's a line in the description of the Master Thrower fluff that goes something like this: "Master Throwers are just fools who have invented a fighting style centered around cleverly disarming themselves." This is, unfortunately, a very apt description in normal 3.5 games: enchanting weapons is both necessary and expensive for mundane characters such as yourself; without either a way to temporarily enchant weapons or a way to return them to you.

The returning weapon property only returns the weapon to you at the beginning of the next round; what this means mechanically is that in order to be effective, you need a number of magic returning thrown weapons equal to your number of attacks, or you're not getting your class feature's worth. This can quickly add up in costs; the reason I suggest Bloodstorm Blade 4 is that it reduces the number of weapons you need to 2, and you don't need the returning enchantment on either one.

But wait, it gets even worse! You've chosen to be a shuriken specialist; shuriken are thrown weapons that, for all intents and purposes, are ammunition. This makes them easy to draw, and cheap to enchant. Unfortunately, ammunition is easy to lose and/or destroy when you throw it: it's a 50% chance of losing it when you miss, and a 100% chance of destroying it if you hit. That means that the super-powerful Adamantine Shuriken with +10 worth of magical enchantments that cost you 4k+ gold pieces? As soon as you throw it, just assume you'll never see it again, because odds are you won't.

Seriously, talk with your DM about this: by RAW, your super-magical adamantine ammunition is automatically destroyed by impact if it hits the target. That's bull****. Try to get your DM to houserule a couple things: A) magical and/or special material ammunition isn't destroyed or lost, and B) Returning weapons return to you after they hit, instead of at the beginning of your next turn. The second point is important, but if you can only get your DM to agree to one of them, get them to agree to the first: otherwise, get ready for a career of WBL oppression.

Yeah, I already spoke to my DM about this, it got lost in the edits I put in after posting the first time probably...

my DM ruled that if I use Aurorum Returning Shuriken, they return to me at the end of the round and reform the round after

And with regards to the cost of them, that's where Shuriken shine. I can grab 10 Aurorum +1 Returning Distance Shuriken for only 4400 gp, cheaper than a +2 Dagger. What I really need to figure out is exactly how many Shuriken I need to buy so that I'm set for the rest of my career, given that I don't know if I'll be able to find my preferred weapon on the open market >.>

Also, with regards to WF(Shuriken), I need it to get into Master Thrower.


Take a level of Drow Fighter.

I know where you're going with that, the racial substitution that doesn't require a race, to add Dex as damage to Dex-denied opponents, at the expense of heavy armor and tower shield proficiency. Now is where I argue the value of gaining a feat in exchange for a d6 of sneak attack and a bonus to dodge AC, since it will replacing my 5th level of Ninja...

[Rebel7284]

Dipping into cloistered cleric for one level with Elf and War domains will give you Point Blank Shot AND weapon focus for free. Although I recall there is some bit of flavor text somewhere that implies that racial domains are usually limited to individuals of that race, so eh?

Also, Horizon Goggles give you Far Shot.

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah, I already spoke to my DM about this, it got lost in the edits I put in after posting the first time probably...

Also, with regards to WF(Shuriken), I need it to get into Master Thrower.

Well that's good. In that case, feel free to go wild with enchantments. That should go well.

Dang...well, without Flaws, or a dip into some sort of Fighter ACF, I don't think you're getting Rapid Shot on this build.

[WeaselGuy]

Dipping into cloistered cleric for one level with Elf and War domains will give you Point Blank Shot AND weapon focus for free. Although I recall there is some bit of flavor text somewhere that implies that racial domains are usually limited to individuals of that race, so eh?

Also, Horizon Goggles give you Far Shot.

Horizon Goggles, beautiful. Thank you very much for thinking outside the box for a solution :D I did the same thing for 2WF and nabbed the Gloves of the Balanced Hand.

Now, I need to figure out how many shuriken I'm throwing in a round. At level 20, I have a 17 BAB, which means 4 right there, +1 each from Rapid Shot and 2WF, bringing me up to 6. Now, with Palm Throw, it says that when using tiny weapons, I can throw 2 of each weapon with a single attack roll. Does this mean that I throw 12 shuriken on every full attack?

[Rubik]

There's any number of feats that can be nabbed via gp expenditure, such as Iron Will (from the Otyugh Hole magical location) and quite a few item and weapon properties, not to mention all of the Armor and Shield Proficiency feats that most classes grant you (check the feat descriptions in the PHB/SRD), the Alertness feat that familiars and psicrystals give you, and so on. Follow up with a purchased Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle (DCFS) to exchange at least one of those feats for the ones you need for your build.

[Jowgen]

If MIC magic item effect stacking rules are in play, I highly recommend adding som Gauntlets of Extended Range onto your Gloves of the Balanced hand, which would cost you 3000 gp. In exchange, you get a range-increment doubling on your shurikens that should stack with Far Shot. 40 ft range increment vs 20 can make a big difference.

Also, consider Helm of the Hunter from MIC in place of the Horizon Goggles. The helm is 1000 gold more expensive, but also gives you +5 Spot and 4 hours of Darkvision/day, which (assuming Nezumi get darkvision) you might be able to "rent" to another party member.

[WeaselGuy]

If MIC magic item effect stacking rules are in play, I highly recommend adding som Gauntlets of Extended Range onto your Gloves of the Balanced hand, which would cost you 3000 gp. In exchange, you get a range-increment doubling on your shurikens that should stack with Far Shot. 40 ft range increment vs 20 can make a big difference.

Also, consider Helm of the Hunter from MIC in place of the Horizon Goggles. The helm is 1000 gold more expensive, but also gives you +5 Spot and 4 hours of Darkvision/day, which (assuming Nezumi get darkvision) you might be able to "rent" to another party member.

I had considered using the extended range gauntlets, but instead went with Aurorum +1 Returning Distance Shuriken, giving me the same 40 ft range. I have to stay within 30 ft in order to get my sneak attack bonus (a must, since shuriken only do 1d2 damage each).

As far as Helm of the Hunter is concerned, I might actually do that. It would replace my Hat of Disguise as well, because of item slots, and cost less than the Goggles and the Hat combined, giving me a little more capital to utilize. With regards to the Darkvision aspect of the Helm, in a surprise move for me, given how often I laud the benefits of Darkvision, the Nezumi don't actually have it, being stuck with *just* Low-Light vision!

Also, I am now looking at the rest of the set pieces to see what I like >.>

[rollforeigninit]

There's also the precise weapon enchantment in the MIC. Pg 40. It'd be more expensive but it would save the feat. To muddy the waters, improved rapid shot is a feat as well if you can shoehorn it in.

[WeaselGuy]

There's also the precise weapon enchantment in the MIC. Pg 40. It'd be more expensive but it would save the feat. To muddy the waters, improved rapid shot is a feat as well if you can shoehorn it in.

Firstly, I need Precise Shot to get into Master thrower.

Secondly, I could probably take Improved Rapid Shot at 18 instead of Darkstalker. I realized that I already get Improved Critical (Shuriken) from Master Thrower 5's Critical Throw.

edit: Unfortunately, IRS requires Manyshot as a prerequisite, and even more unfortunately, Manyshot applies explicitly with arrows, and not thrown weapons :(