Epic Spells: Setting Minimum Spellcraft DC

[Crake]

So... setting a minimum spellcraft DC on epic spells, how much does this change it? I'm thinking something in the realm of 21 (the level epic spells become available). If I recall correctly, part of the big thing about epic spells is that they're so easy to set to 0 DC, allowing them to be instantly researched, cost free, while still allowing world-changing events.

Setting a minimum DC for them seems appropriate in this case, especially since I recall reading somewhere that spells were designed around a similar system, where 9th level spells had a spellcraft DC of 17, 8ths had a DC of 15 etc etc, so technically a 0DC epic spell is supposed to be a cantrip or something.

Anyway, this would mean that epic spells universally take time and money to make, so you cant just have an aresenal of infinite 0DC epic spells at your disposal for no cost, and infinite versatility.

Thoughts?

[Tvtyrant]

The problem isn't that the DC is 0, it is that DC lowering shenanigans means any DC that isn't impossible to meet is over powered. Chain gating solars means I would simply lower the DC to 21 using Solars or long casting time + rapid time dimension bubble and still do whatever I want. The real trick is to cap how many DC modifiers can be added, so you can only add -100 to the DC or so. However much the "or so" is will tell you how strong the casting is going to be.

[atemu1234]

And the problem isn't just lowering the DC it's also boosting your bonus on the check; by the time you reach epic level like that you have +200,000 on your check anyway (exaggeration). Epic Incantatrixes take TO to a new level.

[ericgrau]

Then you have to worry about insanely powerful spells with a DC of only 21. The DM should reign in the mitigating factors by limiting them to things that are actually drawbacks. Epic spells are so customizable that there isn't a good way to keep the DM out of them anyway. This will mean that epic spells aren't that great even compared to a 10th+ level spell (or even an 8th or 9th level spell earlier on), but good, you only paid a feat for them anyway. The neat part is having your own unique spell that doesn't work the same way as regular ones. IIRC they bust anti-magic fields most of the time for example, and they have other unique mechanics.

[Chronos]

One idea that I've had is to allow unlimited mitigation, like it is now, but to calculate the cost (in GP and XP) to research one before the mitigating factors are applied. So mitigation will make it easier to use in the heat of battle, but you still have to shell out to get a very powerful spell, and because of the limit on how much XP you can spend at once, you can't get spells above some power below some minimum level at all.

[Emperor Tippy]

Then you have to worry about insanely powerful spells with a DC of only 21. The DM should reign in the mitigating factors by limiting them to things that are actually drawbacks. Epic spells are so customizable that there isn't a good way to keep the DM out of them anyway. This will mean that epic spells aren't that great even compared to a 10th+ level spell (or even an 8th or 9th level spell earlier on), but good, you only paid a feat for them anyway. The neat part is having your own unique spell that doesn't work the same way as regular ones. IIRC they bust anti-magic fields most of the time for example, and they have other unique mechanics.

This makes them totally pointless.

And no, Epic spells that aren't mitigated to nothing have a fairly high cost in GP and XP.

The point of Epic Magic is to do things that are EPIC. To raise continents from the ocean, to enchant entire cities at once, to summon forth entire flights of dragons, to turn individuals into walking blizzards, to fling enemies into orbit, to cause the sky to rain fire over a two mile radius for twenty hours, etc.; those are WotC made Epic Spells.

Want to enchant an entire forest so that any living creature with less than five HD who enters it is instantly slain and raised as a zombie? That is a fine epic spell.

Want to cut an entire world off from extraplanar travel? That is a perfectly fine epic spell.

Want to make a commoner into a walking nuke that will incinerate anything that comes within five miles of him and will never die? That is a perfectly fine epic spell.

The issue with Epic Spells is not the scope of what they can do but the fact that either the spellcraft DC's are so absurdly high that no one can ever cast or create them, or they are so easy to mitigate that only an utter fool has to invest much of anything into them.

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Solve that issue and you solve the problem with Epic Spells, nothing else really does much at all.

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Personally I am a fan of adding things like "To cast this spell requires the captured souls of a hundred Great Wyrm Red Dragons" to a spell that will incinerate a continent or "To cast this spell requires the soul container of thirteen Lich's" to cast a spell that will kill every creature that sets foot in a forest.

[Crake]

This makes them totally pointless.

And no, Epic spells that aren't mitigated to nothing have a fairly high cost in GP and XP.

The point of Epic Magic is to do things that are EPIC. To raise continents from the ocean, to enchant entire cities at once, to summon forth entire flights of dragons, to turn individuals into walking blizzards, to fling enemies into orbit, to cause the sky to rain fire over a two mile radius for twenty hours, etc.; those are WotC made Epic Spells.

Want to enchant an entire forest so that any living creature with less than five HD who enters it is instantly slain and raised as a zombie? That is a fine epic spell.

Want to cut an entire world off from extraplanar travel? That is a perfectly fine epic spell.

Want to make a commoner into a walking nuke that will incinerate anything that comes within five miles of him and will never die? That is a perfectly fine epic spell.

The issue with Epic Spells is not the scope of what they can do but the fact that either the spellcraft DC's are so absurdly high that no one can ever cast or create them, or they are so easy to mitigate that only an utter fool has to invest much of anything into them.

---
Solve that issue and you solve the problem with Epic Spells, nothing else really does much at all.

---
Personally I am a fan of adding things like "To cast this spell requires the captured souls of a hundred Great Wyrm Red Dragons" to a spell that will incinerate a continent or "To cast this spell requires the soul container of thirteen Lich's" to cast a spell that will kill every creature that sets foot in a forest.

That's a pretty good summary of epic spells.

What if mitigation could only ever reduce the DC to a logarithmic scale, so spellcraft DCs would plateau out after mitigation is taken into account? That way the spells with higher base DCs can still be mitigated down to a point, but weaker spells could still be mitigated to very cheap levels. I'm imagining a plateau around perhaps 80-100?

[ericgrau]

Why do you want to shatter multiverses for a single epic feat? It's like complaining that level 9s aren't broken enough.

I didn't say not to mitigate them either. But rather to enforce costs that actually matter.

[Necroticplague]

I don't really see why the ability to instantly research them is that powerful. Normally, if a spell has a DC of zero, it either takes to long to cast that the saved research time is neglibable, or requires so many other casters to use their spell slots that you need to spend a whole ton of time gathering the proper casters. Either way, you'd spend more time loopholing your way to DC 0 then you probably would if your researched the dang thing as normal. As for XP costs of research? Irrelevant, because at Epic levels, Thought Bottle and the XP to use them are tiny compared to the vast amount you have.

Though a good step I've seen towards balancing epic spells is modifying how durations work. In my experience, the most useful epic spells are "Transform+heal into 'myself, but with the [ability] of a(n) creature'". Even as permanent, this would be acceptable because it can get dispelled or disjoined or negated through various means. However, as an instantaneous change, it's simply trading the downtime of casting it for a permanent buff.

[Tvtyrant]

Why do you want to shatter multiverses for a single epic feat? It's like complaining that level 9s aren't broken enough.

I didn't say not to mitigate them either. But rather to enforce costs that actually matter.

I think it is for the classical "big spells" myself. Creating Mythallars, raising mountain range, creating floating continents, etc. The closest thing a 9th level spell has to making a mountain is Raise Volcano, which requires tons of time and makes a tiny hill.

[Andion Isurand]

Epic Level Handbook, pages 71 to 102
Any portion of text that mentions "final Spellcraft DC" is amended as follows:
"The final Spellcraft DC of any given epic spell, must match or exceed the single highest Base Spellcraft DC found among the seeds it incorporates."

Some House Rules / Errata (http://magerune.blogspot.com/2011/10/houserules-and-custom-errata.html)

[ZamielVanWeber]

Want to cut an entire world off from extraplanar travel? That is a perfectly fine epic spell.


I had a setting that involved something like this, sadly the game sort of disintegrated because it was a blast while it lasted.

The minimum DC has to set to be high enough to be difficult, but eventually that won't matter. They will catch up and they will use whatever outrageous effect they want to in the end. That is the nature of epic spells. I personally just make ones myself and make them the subject of quests and such.