Playing a necromancer without being a necromancer?

[apachea]

Hey guys, so I am in a custom campaign with a large group of people (multiple DMs run multiple groups) and in this world they have banned Leadership and all forms of Necromancy - at least the category of spells. I am wondering if there is a way to get around this and be able to make/control undead or people in general? I am a paladin and I just got turn undead (just turned level 4). The rules they allow are a bit homebrew so I am a neutral paladin. I noticed that it says for Turn Undead that neutral clerics can use negative energy to command undead. Since this is a mildly homebrew pally for the most part they treat me as a cleric in this regard. Are there other ways to do something like this or prestige classes that dont use necromancy but are of the sorts? I don't necessarily want to be evil but I wouldn't mind having people to control haha.

Thanks!

[A_S]

What exactly do you mean by "all forms of Necromancy"...just the spell school?

If so, there are various abilities that might let you raise your own undead without casting spells: The Bone Knight PrC (Five Nations) can summon a skeletal steed and raise zombies and skeletons as spell-like abilities.
Characters killed by negative levels return as Wights. You might be able to get your hands on a way to deliver negative levels without casting Necromancy spells, for instance via the Fell Drain metamagic feat (Libris Mortis) or the Soul Eater PrC (BoVD).
The Fell Animate feat raises enemies killed by your spells as zombies.
As you mentioned, if you have access to Rebuke Undead, you can take control of pre-existing undead with Rebuke attempts.
Some undead (such as Shadows and Vampires) create spawn under their command. If you can ever gain control of such a creature via whichever method, you can get it to make your undead for you. The Master of Shrouds PrC (Libris Mortis) has the ability to summon various incorporeal undead, which might help with this, although it requires some Necromancy spells to qualify, which probably means it'll be unavailable.
I'm sure I've missed some stuff, but that might help get you started.

[atemu1234]

Wasn't bone knight updated in Libris Mortis, too?

[hamishspence]

Wasn't bone knight updated in Libris Mortis, too?I think the one with the undead arm graft is a different PRC - from 3.0 Tome and Blood originally, like the True Necromancer was.

[apachea]

What exactly do you mean by "all forms of Necromancy"...just the spell school?

If so, there are various abilities that might let you raise your own undead without casting spells: The Bone Knight PrC (Five Nations) can summon a skeletal steed and raise zombies and skeletons as spell-like abilities.
Characters killed by negative levels return as Wights. You might be able to get your hands on a way to deliver negative levels without casting Necromancy spells, for instance via the Fell Drain metamagic feat (Libris Mortis) or the Soul Eater PrC (BoVD).
The Fell Animate feat raises enemies killed by your spells as zombies.
As you mentioned, if you have access to Rebuke Undead, you can take control of pre-existing undead with Rebuke attempts.
Some undead (such as Shadows and Vampires) create spawn under their command. If you can ever gain control of such a creature via whichever method, you can get it to make your undead for you. The Master of Shrouds PrC (Libris Mortis) has the ability to summon various incorporeal undead, which might help with this, although it requires some Necromancy spells to qualify, which probably means it'll be unavailable.
I'm sure I've missed some stuff, but that might help get you started.

Thanks for the reply, yes that school of magic. I had looked at the bone knight but I believe some some of their spells are considered in the school of necromancy so I cannot use it. The DM says:

Vile feats must be earned.
Necromancers are banned
No player may be a race, class, template, or feat that bestows Negative levels
Tome of Battle is banned*


although he goes on to say: "If you take undead leadership you may not have the Wight, however if you give up the ability and replace it with Creatures gain a touch attack that uses negative energy to deal....etc etc" so working around the rules might be possible haha.

I cannot seem to find the Fell Animate feat, what book is it in?

(im a fairly new player so im still trying to figure out where everything is haha)

Thanks you guys for the responses!

[Extra Anchovies]

Fell Animate is from Libris Mortis.

Note, however, that since you're in a large group, leadership and necromancy are probably banned because the DMs don't want players to have large groups of minions. Consider carefully whether trying to circumvent this ban is really worthwhile.

[apachea]

Fell Animate is from Libris Mortis.

Note, however, that since you're in a large group, leadership and necromancy are probably banned because the DMs don't want players to have large groups of minions. Consider carefully whether trying to circumvent this ban is really worthwhile.

This is absolutely true. I guess I wasn't thinking that large of a scale. Maybe just one (two max).

Alternate question. Is there a class that can speak with the dead to try and offer them a deal of sorts? Or like on the brink of death (but not dead as to not raise them) to give them some of my power to avenge themselves but be under my control? haha

[Andezzar]

I would first ask the DM why the necromancy school is banned. If the DM does not wish you to have minions of any form you might actually be fine with a necromancer (i.e. specialist wizard using all the debuffs in the necromancy school). If there is some other reason like necormancy does not exist in that world, or everyone kills practitioners of any form of necormancy on sight, you probably shouldn't try to circumvent the restriction.

[WeaselGuy]

This is absolutely true. I guess I wasn't thinking that large of a scale. Maybe just one (two max).

Alternate question. Is there a class that can speak with the dead to try and offer them a deal of sorts? Or like on the brink of death (but not dead as to not raise them) to give them some of my power to avenge themselves but be under my control? haha

That last part right there? That sounds like an awesomely fluffy way to be a non-evil vampire, creating spawn. Kind of a cross between Interview with a Vampire and (I hate to mention it) parts of Twilight.

I don't really know how attached you are to your Paladin, or what direction you're taking him, but the capstone of Shadow Sun Ninja from Bo9S is something to the effect of "if you use this ability so many times that your constitution score hits 0, you die and reform as a vampire 1d4 days later, as an NPC". It also gives a few other nifty abilities, such as Daywalker, or whatever they call it. Basically, sunlight doesn't cook you extra crispy.

I'm sure with a little work, I can come up with a Paladin/Unarmed Swordsage/Shadow Sun Ninja, but that capstone wouldn't occur any earlier than level 15.

edit: Wasn't really that hard. If you take your next level as a Swordsage, with the Unarmed Strike variant, and can shift your alignment to Good within the next level (to qualify for SSN), and dump 8 skill points into Hide, then at level 6 you can start taking levels of Shadow Sun Ninja. Read their capstone, you basically embrace the darkness, and with every unarmed attack you deal damage with, you deliver a negative level to the enemy. 1) if they take negative levels equal to their HD, they die (which I believe triggers them becoming a Wight?) and then 2) when you stop being a shadowy badass, you take con damage equal to the number of negative levels you bestowed. If that kills you, then you die and reform 1d4 days later as a vampire, a champion of evil, and an npc with all of your original abilities, plus the shiny vampire ones, plus the daywalker bit. At this point, you do some Diplomacy with your DM IRL, and say "But dude, at this point, it would be so awesome to keep playing this character, in an effort to redeem his soul!" Or, you know, put on that Cursed Helm of Opposite Alignment that you've been carrying in your Handy Haversack for 8 levels, and turn into a LG Daywalker Paladin/Swordsage/Shadow Sun Ninja.

[apachea]

That last part right there? That sounds like an awesomely fluffy way to be a non-evil vampire, creating spawn. Kind of a cross between Interview with a Vampire and (I hate to mention it) parts of Twilight.

I don't really know how attached you are to your Paladin, or what direction you're taking him, but the capstone of Shadow Sun Ninja from Bo9S is something to the effect of "if you use this ability so many times that your constitution score hits 0, you die and reform as a vampire 1d4 days later, as an NPC". It also gives a few other nifty abilities, such as Daywalker, or whatever they call it. Basically, sunlight doesn't cook you extra crispy.

I'm sure with a little work, I can come up with a Paladin/Unarmed Swordsage/Shadow Sun Ninja, but that capstone wouldn't occur any earlier than level 15.

edit: Wasn't really that hard. If you take your next level as a Swordsage, with the Unarmed Strike variant, and can shift your alignment to Good within the next level (to qualify for SSN), and dump 8 skill points into Hide, then at level 6 you can start taking levels of Shadow Sun Ninja. Read their capstone, you basically embrace the darkness, and with every unarmed attack you deal damage with, you deliver a negative level to the enemy. 1) if they take negative levels equal to their HD, they die (which I believe triggers them becoming a Wight?) and then 2) when you stop being a shadowy badass, you take con damage equal to the number of negative levels you bestowed. If that kills you, then you die and reform 1d4 days later as a vampire, a champion of evil, and an npc with all of your original abilities, plus the shiny vampire ones, plus the daywalker bit. At this point, you do some Diplomacy with your DM IRL, and say "But dude, at this point, it would be so awesome to keep playing this character, in an effort to redeem his soul!" Or, you know, put on that Cursed Helm of Opposite Alignment that you've been carrying in your Handy Haversack for 8 levels, and turn into a LG Daywalker Paladin/Swordsage/Shadow Sun Ninja.

Also the Tome of Battle is a banned book*

but that seems like a crazy cool idea. I shall look into it :D

[WeaselGuy]

Also the Tome of Battle is a banned book*

but that seems like a crazy cool idea. I shall look into it :D

Oh. Well, there is that I suppose lol. Didn't see anything about books allowed/banned...
Also, that build is a modification of one that I have saved for our resident Monk, in case he ever comes to the realization that he's playing an extremely low-op character and wants to up his game, by way of UA-SS/SSN/Bloodclaw Master, and laying waste with a pair of beefed up Scorpion Kama.

[apachea]

Oh. Well, there is that I suppose lol. Didn't see anything about books allowed/banned...
Also, that build is a modification of one that I have saved for our resident Monk, in case he ever comes to the realization that he's playing an extremely low-op character and wants to up his game, by way of UA-SS/SSN/Bloodclaw Master, and laying waste with a pair of beefed up Scorpion Kama.

Yeah that was my bad, I forgot about it until you mentioned it haha

[ShurikVch]

Summon Undead line is not a Necromancy, it's Conjuration
Summons from 3rd (Ghoul), 4th (Ghast), and 5th (Shadow, Vampire Spawn, Wight) levels are can make spawns...

[Baroknik]

If setting specific material is allowed, look into a re-fluffed Horned Harbinger from Faiths and Pantheons (FR). It gets animate dead as a SLA and lots of boosts to it and rebuking limits.