Crafting Rules Vs. Poisons

[drawingfreak]

A player wants his rogue (lvl 5 Arcane Trickster) to use more poisons, but according to RAW it takes days or weeks to craft a single dose of poison (depending on gp cost and available resources). We both agree that while this might make sense for down time wherein we include the time needed to forage/hunt for ingredients, it is rediculous if you want to craft while in the field.

What would you do for crafting poisons while in the field? Short rest? Long rest? Do the poisons need to ferment properly?

[DanyBallon]

As for myself, I wouldn't allow crafting poison, or crafting at all for that matters, in the field, as it requires concentration, delicate manipulations and the like. Also poisons are extremely dangerous to manipulate. If you need poison, you should either spend some downtime creating doses, or go by the doses you think you'll need in the field.

If you really wish to implement poison crafting, increase the DC by 5 and all failure are critical failure (as when you miss your check by more than 5). This could be applied to all crafting in the field.

[GiantOctopodes]

A player wants his rogue (lvl 5 Arcane Trickster) to use more poisons, but according to RAW it takes days or weeks to craft a single dose of poison (depending on gp cost and available resources). We both agree that while this might make sense for down time wherein we include the time needed to forage/hunt for ingredients, it is rediculous if you want to craft while in the field.

What would you do for crafting poisons while in the field? Short rest? Long rest? Do the poisons need to ferment properly?

I'm not a fan of the crafting rules whatsoever, they really don't make sense to me. That two doses of Torpor would take nearly as long to make as a suit of plate mail, that both would take nearly a year of time to make, and that one dose of it would cost as much as a headband of intellect (or other uncommon magic items) tells me that the costs and time for poisons, plate, magic items, etc is way out of whack. It actually takes far less time, from what I hear, to make a set of magical plate than it does a set of regular plate mail, and costs less too.

From the other perspective all it takes is a giant poisonous serpent (or someone with a 3rd level spell to use "Call Animals") and you have unlimited serpent venom, which despite taking *minutes* to craft costs 1/3 as much as something that takes *months* to craft. If you have a druid or ranger buddy at 5th level, in a week or less (possibly a single day if you're that good / that lucky on your knowledge nature checks) you could make enough serpent venom to sell it and just buy the aforementioned Torpor. Again, something is out of whack.

Personally, I'd increase the amount crafted per day to 25 GP instead of 5, cut the costs for all poisons in half, disallow the selling of poisons at all, and make it selective which poisons are available for purchase. In terms of him using poison more, as indicated there are plenty of ways to get infinite serpent venom, so it's the other poisons that are in question. I'd probably have the player complete a quest of some kind to get the recipe, then have days of activity count towards whatever crafting the person wants to do on that day as it's assumed they find the time to work on it somehow, probably during short rests. Under the proposed system above, the rogue could undergo a quest (probably a pretty epic one) to learn how to create drow sleep poison. After completing that quest, he could create one dose of Drow sleep poison every 4 days, and it would cost him 50GP, and once made he could not sell it, so it would only be useful for personal use / to give to the party. Once the recipe for Wyvern poison was found (late in the career, presumably), it would take 24 days to make one dose, and cost 300GP to create.

Keep in mind that all of that is just spitballing, I've only started my work on poisons as a rogue myself, so I can't yet speak to what impact the proposed rules would have on late game balance.

[Vogonjeltz]

From the other perspective all it takes is a giant poisonous serpent (or someone with a 3rd level spell to use "Call Animals") and you have unlimited serpent venom, which despite taking *minutes* to craft costs 1/3 as much as something that takes *months* to craft. If you have a druid or ranger buddy at 5th level, in a week or less (possibly a single day if you're that good / that lucky on your knowledge nature checks) you could make enough serpent venom to sell it and just buy the aforementioned Torpor. Again, something is out of whack.

I thought harvesting requires the animal to be dead or incapacitated?

When the fey from Conjure Animals (there is no Call Animals spell, so I assume you meant that) reach 0 hit points they disappear. So, if I am recalling the rule on harvesting correctly, there is no way to get poison from those animals. Also, the spell only lasts 1 hour, so the poison (which would only exist because of the spell) would disappear after 1 hour anyway.

[GiantOctopodes]

I thought harvesting requires the animal to be dead or incapacitated?

When the fey from Conjure Animals (there is no Call Animals spell, so I assume you meant that) reach 0 hit points they disappear. So, if I am recalling the rule on harvesting correctly, there is no way to get poison from those animals. Also, the spell only lasts 1 hour, so the poison (which would only exist because of the spell) would disappear after 1 hour anyway.

Indeed it does, but you are incapacitated when you are unconscious, so you can just have the entirely friendly fey go to sleep and get it done. And why would the poison disappear when the fey are gone? It's not like the poison from a snake or spider stops working when the beast is dead and gone. It wouldn't exist without the snake or spider, but it is not reliant on that creature to continue existing. Why would the fey have poison that acts any differently?

And besides, this is all somewhat moot, if you don't believe that you can harvest venom from conjured animals or are arguing that you would disallow such a thing in your game, it doesn't really change any of my points, as you have not argued that it is impossible to just keep a giant poisonous snake in a cage and harvest venom from it on a regular basis.

(As an entirely useless aside, what would you then say about a druid wild shaping into a giant poisonous snake and then being stunned, paralyzed or petrified (the other ways to become incapacitated, and I would like to point out I think it's *really* funny that you can't perform a harmless procedure on a willing companion like milking them when they're awake, but you can perform it on them per the rules when they've turned into stone...) and then harvesting venom from them? In your game would the venom change into something else when the Druid wild shaped back, like saliva?)

[Blacky the Blackball]

A player wants his rogue (lvl 5 Arcane Trickster) to use more poisons, but according to RAW it takes days or weeks to craft a single dose of poison (depending on gp cost and available resources). We both agree that while this might make sense for down time wherein we include the time needed to forage/hunt for ingredients, it is rediculous if you want to craft while in the field.

What would you do for crafting poisons while in the field? Short rest? Long rest? Do the poisons need to ferment properly?

I wouldn't allow crafting poisons, or crafting anything for that matter, in the field.

If the character doesn't want to spend the time making poisons for themselves, they can let someone else do all the work and spend their money buying poisons from them instead.

If I were feeling generous, I'd rule that a Fabricate spell would be able to make a poison out of its ingredients - but since that's not on the Arcane Trickster list your rogue would have to get a wizard friend to cast it (and the wizard would also need to have proficiency with a poisoners kit).

[JoeJ]

I wouldn't allow crafting poisons, or crafting anything for that matter, in the field.

If the character doesn't want to spend the time making poisons for themselves, they can let someone else do all the work and spend their money buying poisons from them instead.

If I were feeling generous, I'd rule that a Fabricate spell would be able to make a poison out of its ingredients - but since that's not on the Arcane Trickster list your rogue would have to get a wizard friend to cast it (and the wizard would also need to have proficiency with a poisoners kit).

At 20th level an Arcane Trickster can learn Fabricate, but otherwise your point holds.

[GiantOctopodes]

I wouldn't allow crafting poisons, or crafting anything for that matter, in the field.

If the character doesn't want to spend the time making poisons for themselves, they can let someone else do all the work and spend their money buying poisons from them instead.

If I were feeling generous, I'd rule that a Fabricate spell would be able to make a poison out of its ingredients - but since that's not on the Arcane Trickster list your rogue would have to get a wizard friend to cast it (and the wizard would also need to have proficiency with a poisoners kit).

The thing about it is that the current crafting rules aren't really viable- after every major campaign arc, either the person in question says "ok, I spend the next 3 years crafting back up my poison supplies", and you say "sounds good, what does the rest of the party do over the next 3 years?", or you find a way to allow crafting without requiring months or years of downtime to build a stockpile large enough for personal use. The thing about it, too, is that the adventurers can earn *way* more than the amount of gold they save (2.5 GP per day of crafting spent) by adventuring, so unless the character is playing from a fluff perspective of a survivalist who works only with crafted or found supplies, there is no reason for them to ever actually do that. They are far better off adventuring and just buying the poison (not to mention the XP they gain), so you're really saying at that point that you either don't want them to use poison, want them to pay full price for poison, or want them to commonly have months of downtime.

Allowing fabricate to do in one casting what they take years to do on their own just seems like a slap in the face and a way to demean the character. Note that the Wizard could gain proficiency in a poisoner's kit in the time it takes the Rogue to craft two doses of Torpor, so the proficiency is not a significant hurdle. But that's just my opinion on it.

[Vogonjeltz]

Indeed it does, but you are incapacitated when you are unconscious, so you can just have the entirely friendly fey go to sleep and get it done. And why would the poison disappear when the fey are gone? It's not like the poison from a snake or spider stops working when the beast is dead and gone. It wouldn't exist without the snake or spider, but it is not reliant on that creature to continue existing. Why would the fey have poison that acts any differently?

And besides, this is all somewhat moot, if you don't believe that you can harvest venom from conjured animals or are arguing that you would disallow such a thing in your game, it doesn't really change any of my points, as you have not argued that it is impossible to just keep a giant poisonous snake in a cage and harvest venom from it on a regular basis.

(As an entirely useless aside, what would you then say about a druid wild shaping into a giant poisonous snake and then being stunned, paralyzed or petrified (the other ways to become incapacitated, and I would like to point out I think it's *really* funny that you can't perform a harmless procedure on a willing companion like milking them when they're awake, but you can perform it on them per the rules when they've turned into stone...) and then harvesting venom from them? In your game would the venom change into something else when the Druid wild shaped back, like saliva?)

The rules don't need to say the incapacitated creature can't be stone, because they don't need to say that. If the creature is stone, their poison is too, rendering extraction impossible.

Again, the poison itself is magically existing, so when the casting goes it goes too. Arguably any penalties in place by the continued existence of a magically conjured poison (the poisoned condition, for example) would also end when the spell does.

I'd say as soon as the Wildshape ends, so does the poison, it being only in existence, magically. This isn't a problem in combat because the effect is instantaneous, not lingering after application. And to answer your question, yes, it would likely revert to something harmless like spit.

And it's not impossible to capture a wild animal and harvest from it. It's just very dangerous. I'm only pointing out that it's impossible to magically accrue the poison, the characters must necessarily do all the legwork if they want the benefit.

[GiantOctopodes]

The rules don't need to say the incapacitated creature can't be stone, because they don't need to say that. If the creature is stone, their poison is too, rendering extraction impossible.

Again, the poison itself is magically existing, so when the casting goes it goes too. Arguably any penalties in place by the continued existence of a magically conjured poison (the poisoned condition, for example) would also end when the spell does.

I'd say as soon as the Wildshape ends, so does the poison, it being only in existence, magically. This isn't a problem in combat because the effect is instantaneous, not lingering after application. And to answer your question, yes, it would likely revert to something harmless like spit.

And it's not impossible to capture a wild animal and harvest from it. It's just very dangerous. I'm only pointing out that it's impossible to magically accrue the poison, the characters must necessarily do all the legwork if they want the benefit.

I respectfully disagree. I see no reason why they (the fey or the druid) would not have taken on a form with real venom vs magically transient venom. Just like a form which creates fire (such as a fire elemental) does not have fires caused by it magically extinguished when it changes back, I see no reason why the venom would magically leave a person's body, or the jar it was being held within. I most argree with your wording- "arguably". I can certainly understand your position, and you are free of course to play your game however you like, I just disagree with it. Ultimately the rules don't speak on the subject either way, so the DM is of course as always the final determinant of whether or not it is possible.

In terms of trying to better illustrate what I mean regarding poison costs and timeframes, I whipped up a shopping list for my Assassin, the amount of poison I feel would be appropriate to craft or obtain throughout the course of his career. Here is what I found:
5-11: 750 days (2 years), 3750 GP
7x Serpent Venom 1400
1x Truth Serum 150
1x Torpor 600
7x Drow Poison 1400
1x Carrion Crawler Mucus 200
3750 GP

11-17: 2190 days (6 years), 10950 GP
7x Wyvern Poison 8400
7x Essence of Ether 2100
1x Pale Tincture 250
1x Carrion Crawler Mucus 200

17-20: 1820 days (5 years), 9100 GP
3x Great Worm Venom 6000
3x Essence of Ether 900
1x Carrion Crawler Mucus 200
1x Burnt Othur Fumes 500
1x Midnight Tears 1500

Total Cost: 23800 GP, 13 years

I don't think that wanting one damage dealing poison and one incapacitating poison per level is excessive, and the utility and variety poisons are mostly one each, so it's not like I'm going crazy with the poison use. It still, under existing costs and timeframes provided by crafting rules, takes away 13 years of the Assassin's life. Even if you take my more generous 25GP per day, it's 2.6 years, but that's why I believe that allowing it to occur during travel (as compared to say crafting armour, which obviously requires a forge, these are after all consumable items) is not in any way shape or form unreasonable. Quite frankly, I can't see anyone actually choosing to bother with crafting poisons, using the existing rules. Harvesting Venom, that's a different thing. You mean to tell me that if I get a Wyvern locked up, I have a consistent source of something that sells for 600GP each? That I can take one dose of a naturally occuring venom from that animal, and trade it for a magic item AND additional gold? Now that is a bit absurd for a one time use item, but heck, who wouldn't do that?

[MaxWilson]

The thing about it is that the current crafting rules aren't really viable- after every major campaign arc, either the person in question says "ok, I spend the next 3 years crafting back up my poison supplies", and you say "sounds good, what does the rest of the party do over the next 3 years?", or you find a way to allow crafting without requiring months or years of downtime to build a stockpile large enough for personal use. The thing about it, too, is that the adventurers can earn *way* more than the amount of gold they save (2.5 GP per day of crafting spent) by adventuring, so unless the character is playing from a fluff perspective of a survivalist who works only with crafted or found supplies, there is no reason for them to ever actually do that.

The bolded statement seems questionable to me because it neglects to factor in the relative probability of not dying while crafting vs. adventuring. Sure, a 1st level hobbit thief can become fantastically rich by looting a dragon's horde... with 0.00001% probability of success.

[Spacehamster]

Crafting in general should be instant or very fast and you could either find the mats out in the world or buy em. But they would not be possible to sell. Cause as the crafting rules are now who would ever use crafting for anything?

[Vogonjeltz]

I respectfully disagree. I see no reason why they (the fey or the druid) would not have taken on a form with real venom vs magically transient venom. Just like a form which creates fire (such as a fire elemental) does not have fires caused by it magically extinguished when it changes back, I see no reason why the venom would magically leave a person's body, or the jar it was being held within. I most argree with your wording- "arguably". I can certainly understand your position, and you are free of course to play your game however you like, I just disagree with it. Ultimately the rules don't speak on the subject either way, so the DM is of course as always the final determinant of whether or not it is possible.

In terms of trying to better illustrate what I mean regarding poison costs and timeframes, I whipped up a shopping list for my Assassin, the amount of poison I feel would be appropriate to craft or obtain throughout the course of his career. Here is what I found:
5-11: 750 days (2 years), 3750 GP
7x Serpent Venom 1400
1x Truth Serum 150
1x Torpor 600
7x Drow Poison 1400
1x Carrion Crawler Mucus 200
3750 GP

11-17: 2190 days (6 years), 10950 GP
7x Wyvern Poison 8400
7x Essence of Ether 2100
1x Pale Tincture 250
1x Carrion Crawler Mucus 200

17-20: 1820 days (5 years), 9100 GP
3x Great Worm Venom 6000
3x Essence of Ether 900
1x Carrion Crawler Mucus 200
1x Burnt Othur Fumes 500
1x Midnight Tears 1500

Total Cost: 23800 GP, 13 years

I don't think that wanting one damage dealing poison and one incapacitating poison per level is excessive, and the utility and variety poisons are mostly one each, so it's not like I'm going crazy with the poison use. It still, under existing costs and timeframes provided by crafting rules, takes away 13 years of the Assassin's life. Even if you take my more generous 25GP per day, it's 2.6 years, but that's why I believe that allowing it to occur during travel (as compared to say crafting armour, which obviously requires a forge, these are after all consumable items) is not in any way shape or form unreasonable. Quite frankly, I can't see anyone actually choosing to bother with crafting poisons, using the existing rules. Harvesting Venom, that's a different thing. You mean to tell me that if I get a Wyvern locked up, I have a consistent source of something that sells for 600GP each? That I can take one dose of a naturally occuring venom from that animal, and trade it for a magic item AND additional gold? Now that is a bit absurd for a one time use item, but heck, who wouldn't do that?

Wild shape is magical, it says so in the ability text, so you have your reason.

[JoeJ]

Crafting in general should be instant or very fast and you could either find the mats out in the world or buy em. But they would not be possible to sell. Cause as the crafting rules are now who would ever use crafting for anything?

Anybody who isn't an adventurer.

[Blacky the Blackball]

The thing about it is that the current crafting rules aren't really viable- after every major campaign arc, either the person in question says "ok, I spend the next 3 years crafting back up my poison supplies", and you say "sounds good, what does the rest of the party do over the next 3 years?", or you find a way to allow crafting without requiring months or years of downtime to build a stockpile large enough for personal use. The thing about it, too, is that the adventurers can earn *way* more than the amount of gold they save (2.5 GP per day of crafting spent) by adventuring, so unless the character is playing from a fluff perspective of a survivalist who works only with crafted or found supplies, there is no reason for them to ever actually do that. They are far better off adventuring and just buying the poison (not to mention the XP they gain), so you're really saying at that point that you either don't want them to use poison, want them to pay full price for poison, or want them to commonly have months of downtime.

The party being better off adventuring and just finding/buying poisons is the system working as designed, and is totally viable. That seems to be fairly clearly the intent of the designers (and the same goes for magic items) and the rules work well to support that intent. It's a roll back to how older editions worked, in that it's only in 3.x and 4e that the PCs making things instead of adventuring and finding/buying things became an issue.

Of course, if you want the PCs to be spending time making things instead of adventuring in your campaign then you're free to house-rule things to make it easier for them - for example by reducing the crafting times. But that doesn't mean the long crafting times are somehow broken or non-viable. They work fine and produce the intended results. It just means that the results they produce are not to your taste.

[GiantOctopodes]

The party being better off adventuring and just finding/buying poisons is the system working as designed, and is totally viable. That seems to be fairly clearly the intent of the designers (and the same goes for magic items) and the rules work well to support that intent. It's a roll back to how older editions worked, in that it's only in 3.x and 4e that the PCs making things instead of adventuring and finding/buying things became an issue.

Of course, if you want the PCs to be spending time making things instead of adventuring in your campaign then you're free to house-rule things to make it easier for them - for example by reducing the crafting times. But that doesn't mean the long crafting times are somehow broken or non-viable. They work fine and produce the intended results. It just means that the results they produce are not to your taste.

That is a totally fair and viable point. My wording should instead have been "The rules aren't condusive to actually supporting the action of PCs crafting items", at which point I think we would be in agreement. I agree that the rules as they exist are totally viable and fine for NPCs crafting, and even provide a great income stream based upon existing measures of standards of living costs detailed in the game. They allow someone to maintain a "comfortable" lifestyle and have half a gold piece left over per day, so it is reasonable that an NPC would use those rules. There is also certainly merit to the lack of risk involved being an incentive for those who are not PCs.

All that being said, if I'm going to allow PCs to craft at all, personally I would rather it be worth their time vs comparable activities they themselves would be engaged in, or allow it to occur simultaneously with those other activities. I also still hold that the fact that you can create 4 different magic items for the same cost and in the same time as one dose of purple worm poison is totally illogical and flies in the face of the supposed rarity of magic items in this system. Of course, you could always disallow crafting magic items, but my larger concern is on relative valuation- in order for magic items to not cost a quarter as much as one dose of a single use consumable, they would need to also not be available for purchase, and in that case, why include them at all? Personally I would rather see the magic items have a cost minimum of 5000, not 500, but that might be just me.

[Spacehamster]

Anybody who isn't an adventurer.

Well then why do crafting rules even exist? To piss ppl off with their clunkyness? -.-