7 feats by level 5...

[WeaselGuy]

Working on a project, and need to get the prerequisites for a Raptoran to get Weapon Master at level 5, in order to enter the PrC at 6. Here's what that entails:
Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus and Whirlwind Attack.
Now, I can get 7 feats, The problem is that both Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack both require BAB +4.
I'm looking at 4 levels of Fighter (pretty much required to get all those feats), and need either another full BAB class that gives me one of those feats as a class feature, or lets me pick a bonus feat from a list that includes one of those feats.

Anything come to mind?

EDIT: PROBLEM SOLVED, THANKS ALL FOR THE HELP!!
For the people who aren't going to read the whole thread, I'm going to do a Dark Chaos Shuffle at level 5 so that my LE Raptoran can go Fighter 4/Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Weapon Master 7/Disciple of Dispater 8

[Curmudgeon]

You're looking at shenanigans here. You can get a Dark Chaos Shuffle performed on one feat for 4,900 gp, which is about half the money you've got available at level 5.

[Telonius]

Variant Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) from Unearthed Arcana trades sneak attack for Fighter Feats. It's only 3/4 BAB, but if you take it at 5th it won't matter.

[WeaselGuy]

You're looking at shenanigans here. You can get a Dark Chaos Shuffle performed on one feat for 4,900 gp, which is about half the money you've got available at level 5.

How would that work?


Variant Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) from Unearthed Arcana trades sneak attack for Fighter Feats. It's only 3/4 BAB, but if you take it at 5th it won't matter.

I thought about feat rogue, but I need BAB +5 to hit Weapon Master at 6th level.

[OldTrees1]

You either need +4 BAB at 3th level and 1 feat at both 4th and 5th level or 2 feats and +4 BAB at 5th level. The second is possible with Dark Chaos Shuffle. The first is possible with Human Fighter 4 / Martial Rogue 1 as Telonius recommends.

If you need +5 BAB at 5th level, then your only option is Dark Chaos Shuffle (pay for 1 casting of Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos in that order).

[heavyfuel]

How would that work?

Grab any feat you have, such as the 4 Weapon Proficiencies elves get. Pay someone to use Embrace the Dark Chaos on you, and it becomes another feat from a limited list. Pay them again to cast Shun the Dark Chaos on you and you lose the former feat in exchange from a feat (any feat, but you still have to qualify for them)

[Curmudgeon]

How would that work?
All that's needed is a bit of gp and XP, and the services of an NPC spellcaster:

The spell Embrace the Dark Chaos (Fiendish Codex I, page 92) swaps an existing feat for an Abyssal Heritor feat (see Fiendish Codex I, page 82) the subject qualifies for.
The spell Shun the Dark Chaos (Fiendish Codex I, page 95) swaps an existing Abyssal Heritor feat for any other feat the subject qualifies for.
The cost for spellcasting services is 2,450 gp each casting, which puts it safely inside the 3,000 gp limit for easy access (above that amount the rules say "that spell is not generally available" from an NPC spellcaster)

[OldTrees1]

Why do you need to start Weapon Master at 6th? Are there any later classes of which you could slide one level earlier?

[Seffbasilisk]

If you can talk to your DM about it, you might be able to take flaws after level 1. If you can pick up two flaws at level five, that's two feats at +5 BAB you can strike off your christmas list.

Alternatively, there's the Chaos shuffle, the fighter line (or varients thereof), or if you really want to dig into books, there's a few ways to get Dodge without spending a feat on it. I personally prefer the Desert Wind Dodge.

[Telonius]

Yeah, you *could* double-dip some of the Fighter variants (from Dragon Magazine and the like) for an extra bonus feat, but that's not completely kosher.

[Curmudgeon]

You're talking about Exotic Weapon Master (Complete Warrior), right? That officially replaced the 3.0 Weapon Master prestige class (Sword and Fist). There's an initial list of 3.0 ⇒ 3.5 changes from rules supplements here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x).

[WeaselGuy]

Grab any feat you have, such as the 4 Weapon Proficiencies elves get. Pay someone to use Embrace the Dark Chaos on you, and it becomes another feat from a limited list. Pay them again to cast Shun the Dark Chaos on you and you lose the former feat in exchange from a feat (any feat, but you still have to qualify for them)

So, since this is for a Raptoran, I can do the Embrace the Dark Chaos to ditch his Footbow Proficiency, at level 5, to gain, say, Demonic Skin, then Shun the Dark Chaos to ditch Demonic Skin and gain Whirlwind Attack. I like it. It works. Thanks!

[OldTrees1]

If you can talk to your DM about it, you might be able to take flaws after level 1. If you can pick up two flaws at level five, that's two feats at +5 BAB you can strike off your christmas list.

Doh. Thanks for pointing that out. We don't need 5 levels of Full BAB and Bonus feats to do this legitly. We only need 2 levels of Full BAB and Bonus feats and 3 levels of Full BAB.

Human with 2 flaws Barbarian 3 / Fighter 2 gets feats at 1111345 which satisfies the OP's requirements and frees up the first 3 levels to be any full BAB classes.

[WeaselGuy]

Why do you need to start Weapon Master at 6th? Are there any later classes of which you could slide one level earlier?

It's for gooddragon1's Raptoran Grim Reaper concept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?386674-Let-s-build-the-grim-reaper-(as-a-martial-character)). My plan was to do Fighter/Crusader/Disciple of Dispater/Weapon Master, but I realized I needed both Weapon Master 7 and Disciple of Dispater 8 to make it work, thus necessitating taking Weapon Master before Disciple of Dispater, and pulling off entry after only 5 levels of whatever comes before it.


You're talking about Exotic Weapon Master (Complete Warrior), right? That officially replaced the 3.0 Weapon Master prestige class (Sword and Fist). There's an initial list of 3.0 ⇒ 3.5 changes from rules supplements here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x).

Yeah, I knew that WM was replaced by EWM, but I mean, this is the Grim Reaper here. He's gonna be cheesy... Plus, I don't really think taking a 10 level build and compressing it down to 3 levels of weapon tricks is really comparable, and as a DM, I normally allow my players to use 3.0 stuff like that, as long as something with the exact same name isn't updated.

[Extra Anchovies]

If DCFS is available, consider two Monk levels. Three feats (Improved Unarmed Strike and the monk bonus feats), and +3 to all of your saves.

Also, Psychic Warrior gets two bonus feats in the first two levels.

[OldTrees1]

It's for gooddragon1's Raptoran Grim Reaper concept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?386674-Let-s-build-the-grim-reaper-(as-a-martial-character)). My plan was to do Fighter/Crusader/Disciple of Dispater/Weapon Master, but I realized I needed both Weapon Master 7 and Disciple of Dispater 8 to make it work, thus necessitating taking Weapon Master before Disciple of Dispater, and pulling off entry after only 5 levels of whatever comes before it.

Oh. So your race is locked in? Only Raptorian and Dragonborn get the expanded Dive Attack and Dragonborn does not mesh with Dispater. That eliminates the Human Crusader 3 / Fighter 2 option.

Unless you are starting at high enough level to be a Human and pay for flight. You won't get the expanded Dive Attack but this would fly with DMs that ban/nerf Dark Chaos Shuffle.

[WeaselGuy]

If DCFS is available, consider two Monk levels. Three feats (Improved Unarmed Strike and the monk bonus feats), and +3 to all of your saves.

Also, Psychic Warrior gets two bonus feats in the first two levels.

Again, I need 5 BAB by level 5, to get into Weapon Master at 6. So, that begs the question, what FULL BAB CLASS should I dip at level 5?

[heavyfuel]

So, since this is for a Raptoran, I can do the Embrace the Dark Chaos to ditch his Footbow Proficiency, at level 5, to gain, say, Demonic Skin, then Shun the Dark Chaos to ditch Demonic Skin and gain Whirlwind Attack. I like it. It works. Thanks!

Doesn't work for Raptoran because Weapon Familiarity isn't a feat. You can, however, trade away Armor and Shield proficiencies from classes such as the Fighter

Also, while you like it, but your DM may not.

Chaos Shuffling is pretty much as cheesy as you get besides Aleax of Ice Assassins and Pun Pun. I'd seriously recommend checking with him first, and even then, you should make sure other players are ok with it as well.

[WeaselGuy]

Doesn't work for Raptoran because Weapon Familiarity isn't a feat. You can, however, trade away Armor and Shield proficiencies from classes such as the Fighter

Also, while you like it, but your DM may not.

Chaos Shuffling is pretty much as cheesy as you get besides Aleax of Ice Assassins and Pun Pun. I'd seriously recommend checking with him first, and even then, you should make sure other players are ok with it as well.

1) Didn't realize counting a racial weapon as a martial weapon didn't count as Martial Weapon Proficiency, but that's cool, the guy isn't wearing armor, so I'll just shuffle out those proficiencies like you suggested.
2) It's a proof of concept for gooddragon1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?386674-Let-s-build-the-grim-reaper-(as-a-martial-character)), so it'd have to either fly through his DM, or through him specifically.

[OldTrees1]

1) Didn't realize counting a racial weapon as a martial weapon didn't count as Martial Weapon Proficiency, but that's cool, the guy isn't wearing armor, so I'll just shuffle out those proficiencies like you suggested.
2) It's a proof of concept for gooddragon1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?386674-Let-s-build-the-grim-reaper-(as-a-martial-character)), so it'd have to either fly through his DM, or through him specifically.

By what level does it need to be a Raptorian? Is between levels 9 and 10 good enough?
Between levels 9 and 10 (between qualifying for Disciple of Dispater and taking a level in Disciple of Dispater) we can turn from Human into Raptorian. This loses one of our feats for Weapon Master. By taking that feat at level 12 (3 levels of Disciple of Dispater) we retroactively requalify for Weapon Master.

[WeaselGuy]

By what level does it need to be a Raptorian? Is between levels 9 and 10 good enough?
Between levels 9 and 10 (between qualifying for Disciple of Dispater and taking a level in Disciple of Dispater) we can turn from Human into Raptorian. This loses one of our feats for Weapon Master. By taking that feat at level 12 (3 levels of Disciple of Dispater) we retroactively requalify for Weapon Master.

Uhh... 1) How are you going to switch from Human to Raptoran? and 2) This is just a theorycrafting exercise for me, so I layered on the cheese like a 7 layer lasagna. I used a flaw at level 1 to snag 3 feats then.

[Mato]

Working on a project, and need to get the prerequisites for Weapon Master at level 5Human fighter 6 / weapons master 1?
Psychic fighter 6? Cobra strike monk 6? fighter 2 / psychic fighter 2 / monk 2?
Just use flaws?
Sign your soul away?
Wand of heroics?
Worship an elder evil and dark chaos shuffle?

There is a lot of answers and I bet I didn't give them all so pick one.

[WeaselGuy]

Human fighter 6 / weapons master 1?
Psychic fighter 6? Cobra strike monk 6? fighter 2 / psychic fighter 2 / monk 2?
Just use flaws?
Sign your soul away?
Wand of heroics?
Worship an elder evil and dark chaos shuffle?

There is a lot of answers and I bet I didn't give them all so pick one.

The first 2 won't work, already using a flaw and it wasn't enough, the concept doesn't permit the signing away of my soul, explain the wand for me, and finally, I ended up doing the Dark Chaos Shuffle, but not the Elder Evil worship bit.

[OldTrees1]

Uhh... 1) How are you going to switch from Human to Raptoran? and 2) This is just a theorycrafting exercise for me, so I layered on the cheese like a 7 layer lasagna. I used a flaw at level 1 to snag 3 feats then.

Changing Race is available in several places. I prefer using Savage Species rituals.

Although worshiping an Elder Evil removes the need to start as Human.

[WeaselGuy]

Changing Race is available in several places. I prefer using Savage Species rituals.

Hmm. I see... Well, it would solve the issue of using a flaw, assuming flaws aren't allowed.

[OldTrees1]

Hmm. I see... Well, it would solve the issue of using a flaw, assuming flaws aren't allowed.

^I think Shuffle would be banned long before flaws.

[Rebel7284]

Serpent Armor gives you Combat Reflexes.
Armor of Mobility gives you Mobility.
Titan Bloodline gives you dodge.

So

Full BAB 3/Fighter 2
1. Weapon Focus
3. Combat Expertise
F1. Spring Attack
F2. Whirlwind Attack

On one hand, you don't have to abuse feat shuffling.

On the other hand, you are above wealth by level anyway with Serpent Armor being so expensive and enchanting it with mobility probably doesn't help (although you can use some of those oriental adventures under-armor things).

[WeaselGuy]

Serpent Armor gives you Combat Reflexes.
Armor of Mobility gives you Mobility.
Titan Bloodline gives you dodge.

So

Full BAB 3/Fighter 2
1. Weapon Focus
3. Combat Expertise
F1. Spring Attack
F2. Whirlwind Attack

On one hand, you don't have to abuse feat shuffling.

On the other hand, you are above wealth by level anyway with Serpent Armor being so expensive and enchanting it with mobility probably doesn't help (although you can use some of those oriental adventures under-armor things).

The problem with both these and the wand of heroics, is that you can't qualify for feats and prestige classes through the use of items or temporary gains.

[AvatarVecna]

Working on a project, and need to get the prerequisites for Weapon Master at level 5, in order to enter the PrC at 6. Here's what that entails:
Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus and Whirlwind Attack.
Now, I can get 7 feats, The problem is that both Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack both require BAB +4.
I'm looking at 4 levels of Fighter (pretty much required to get all those feats), and need either another full BAB class that gives me one of those feats as a class feature, or lets me pick a bonus feat from a list that includes one of those feats.

Anything come to mind?

Easy.

Human X 3/Fighter 2, as long as X is a full BAB class, like Ranger or Paladin.

Any character gets a feat at 1st and 3rd lvl, so that's two. Humans get a bonus feat, making it three. A 2 level dip into Fighter gets you two Fighter bonus feats (at levels 4 and 5, so you have BAB +4 at both levels), making it five feats, and two flaws at first level makes 7 total feats.

Boom.

[WeaselGuy]

Easy.

Human X 3/Fighter 2, as long as X is a full BAB class, like Ranger or Paladin.

Any character gets a feat at 1st and 3rd lvl, so that's two. Humans get a bonus feat, making it three. A 2 level dip into Fighter gets you two Fighter bonus feats (at levels 4 and 5, so you have BAB +4 at both levels), making it five feats, and two flaws at first level makes 7 total feats.

Boom.

And the only flaw there, as maybe I should have mentioned in the first post instead of further down the thread, is that the character is a Raptoran, and not a Human. Thanks for the input though.

[AvatarVecna]

And the only flaw there, as maybe I should have mentioned in the first post instead of further down the thread, is that the character is a Raptoran, and not a Human. Thanks for the input though.

Well, if flaws are still allowed, it's still doable:

Raptoran Fighter 4/Rogue (UA Martial Rogue ACF) 1

2 Flaw Feats
2 Level Feats
4 Fighter Bonus Feats (one from Rogue lvls)

Hell, you have a feat to spare! Unless flaws aren't allowed either...

[WeaselGuy]

Well, if flaws are still allowed, it's still doable:

Raptoran Fighter 4/Rogue (UA Martial Rogue ACF) 1

2 Flaw Feats
2 Level Feats
4 Fighter Bonus Feats (one from Rogue lvls)

Hell, you have a feat to spare! Unless flaws aren't allowed either...

Still won't work, need 5 BAB by level 5...

[Aegis013]

Probably wouldn't fly, but if Generic Classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm) are available with regular classes, then you could do this:

Crusader or Warblade or Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian 1/Generic Warrior 2/Fighter 2

Flaw1. Combat Reflexes
1. Weapon Focus
GW2. Dodge
GW3. Mobility
3. Combat Expertise
F4. Spring Attack
F5. Whirlwind Attack

It's not considered kosher either, but I figure it's probably no worse than a Prestige Bard/Ranger/Paladin in a game where the base classes also exist.

[Cruiser1]

Titan Bloodline gives you dodge.
Titan Bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#titan) gives you the Power Attack feat. You want Devil Bloodline for Dodge.

The problem with both these and the wand of heroics, is that you can't qualify for feats and prestige classes through the use of items or temporary gains.
Is this true? Ignoring that it's a reasonable houserule to prevent various overpowered builds, is there a rules reference that states this? I know that if you lose a prerequisite for a feat or PrC, then you lose the abilities of that feat or PrC (although even that's sometimes argued as only applying to the PrC's in CW).

[Aegis013]

Is this true?

Don't think so, but it's generally cumbersome and can cause shenaniganry during gameplay. As you say, it'd be a very reasonable houserule.

The FAQ says you can in the case of feats and qualifying with ability score increases from items and the like, and could be extrapolated to other things, but there's also the problem of "You don't, by RAW, choose when you level" so whether you'll have those temporary effects online allowing you to qualify is highly questionable. Then there's the "FAQ isn't RAW" position that many people have for 3.5 material.

[Curmudgeon]

The problem with both these and the wand of heroics, is that you can't qualify for feats and prestige classes through the use of items or temporary gains.
Maybe that's a house rule in your games, but it's not the RAW. Qualification is qualification: you either have it at the instant the DM awards enough XP to level up, or you don't. Temporary qualification can create headaches later when you have feats you can't use, but that's no different from taking Strength damage and no longer qualifying for Power Attack.

[With a box]

I think there was a feat that give 4 BAB for PRC entry porpose
Problem is , I makes you need MORE feats

[OldTrees1]

I think there was a feat that give 4 BAB for PRC entry porpose
Problem is , I makes you need MORE feats

The number of feats is not that big an issue. It is the high +4 BAB feats and +5 BAB Preq that are making it hard. You can easily get 2 feats + 5 fighter feats in 5 levels if BAB wasn't an issue (and that is before Human, Flaws, Elder Evil and Shuffle).

[kulosle]

Why do you need spring attack? And be weary of the errata, Improved critical ability applies after all multipliers.

[WeaselGuy]

Why do you need spring attack? And be weary of the errata, Improved critical ability applies after all multipliers.

Weapon Master requires Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus and Whirlwind Attack.
Whirlwind Attack requires Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Combat Expertise.

With regards to the Improved Critical application, does the following math follow through?

From DoD, what we're truly interested in is Iron Power. At level 8 of DoD, our Critical Threat Range triples when using an iron weapon, giving us a range of 17-20 with a x4 modifier, for the scythe. It explicitly stacks with Improved Critical, which when taken at level 15, doubles the critical threat range of a weapon, thereby giving us a range of 13-20. Using the S&F Weapon Master, we got both Increased Multiplier and Ki Critical. Ki Critical increases our critical threat range by another +2, bringing it to 11-20, and Increased Multiplier ups the multiplier to x5. From DoD we also get Greater Iron Hews, allowing us to add +6 damage to an attack we make, as a Divine Bonus.

So, now we get into items and whatnot, in order to figure out how much damage the Reaper can do in a single swing.
At the minimum, I would expect a +5 Scythe, a Manual of Gainful Exercise +5, and either a Belt of Magnificence +6, or a Belt of Giant's Strength +6, either of which giving us +6 Strength. With a starting Strength of 18, and adding +1 to it every 4 levels, you get a 23 Strength by level 20. +6 from the belt, upping it to 29, and +5 from the manual, giving us a grand total of 34, which nets us a +7 +12. Now we factor in Power Attack. With a BAB of 20 at level 20, we can subtract up to that amount, and add twice that amount to damage dealt. We'll assume you'll be using a Ring of Invisibility in order to maximize your chances of getting to the target unseen, and thereby denying their Dex Bonus to AC, making the target a bit easier to hit, and a set of True Strike Gauntlets, giving you +20 to hit on your next attack until the end of next turn, usable 1/day.

So, now we have a +41 to hit (20 from True Strike, 12 from Strength, 5 from weapon enchantment, 2 from Raptoran Dive, 1 from Weapon Focus, 1 from Superior Weapon Focus), and is going to deal 8(Ki Damage)+18(Str and a half, two-handed weapon)+40(power attack)+6(Greater Iron Hews)+2(Weapon Specialization)x2(Raptoran Dive), with a critical threat range of 11-20, and a multiplier of x5.

Chances are, you'll at least hit, dealing, at minimum 148 damage. And if you crit... well, now you're doing, at minimum, 660 damage. I don't know of too many PCs with that many HP...

[kulosle]

No the errata explicitly states that the +2 applies after all multipliers, it even sites improved critical as an example. And multipliers always only multiply the base. So two things that double the same thing only triple the number. So in this case it normally only has 1 number on which it crits. so x3 from the class and x2 from the feat thats a total of x4. so 4 numbers. +2 is 6 numbers. That's critting on 15-20.

[WeaselGuy]

No the errata explicitly states that the +2 applies after all multipliers, it even sites improved critical as an example. And multipliers always only multiply the base. So two things that double the same thing only triple the number. So in this case it normally only has 1 number on which it crits. so x3 from the class and x2 from the feat thats a total of x4. so 4 numbers. +2 is 6 numbers. That's critting on 15-20.

Ok, I can see how that applies... Now how about the part of Weapon Master's Ki Critical, wherein it actually says if you already have the Improved Critical Feat, the threat range is instead increased by 2? Would that then increase it to 13-20? Additionally, does the order in which these effects are gained affect the overall threat range?
I missed the bit where you discussed the +2. My bad.
Also, I need to update that paragraph, as well as the original posting, on the threat range.

[kulosle]

yeah the plus 2 does apply. it moves it from 17-20 to 15-20.

The order you gain them in has no affect.

[WeaselGuy]

yeah the plus 2 does apply. it moves it from 17-20 to 15-20.

The order you gain them in has no affect.

Yeah, sorry for making you repeat yourself :( I can't read sometimes lol... so, check this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?386674-Let-s-build-the-grim-reaper-(as-a-martial-character)&p=18487354#post18487354) out, and tell me if it makes sense?

[kulosle]

Yeah that all seems good.