When does charmed friendship become real friendship? [Archive]

(Un)Inspired

2014-12-04, 06:00 PM

When the DM reveals that your Wand of Charm Person was actually just a Wand of Guidance and the friendship was real all along.

Beautiful. We can all learn from your lesson Troacctid

unseenmage

2014-12-04, 07:08 PM

When the DM reveals that your Wand of Charm Person was actually just a Wand of Guidance and the friendship was real all along.

Ahhh, maaan. That's good.

Sadly for my purposes it is less useful as my situation involves an Aberration player psionically charming an Aberration. As two tentacle monsters they're compatible allies, that the player is Good and the monster is Evil makes things complicated.

Still though, whew. Good answer.

TheCrowing1432

2014-12-04, 07:12 PM

charmed friendship huh?

it seems

*puts on shades*

Friendship is magic.

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

(Un)Inspired

2014-12-04, 07:15 PM

charmed friendship huh?

it seems

*puts on shades*

Friendship is magic.

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Damn I don't even watch that show and I still think that's a pretty good joke.

This threat is golden.

TheCrowing1432

2014-12-04, 07:26 PM

In all seriousness though, according to RAW nothing happens when Charm Person ends, so presumably, their attitude, which in Charm Persons case is friendly, would remain the same.

Pyon

2014-12-04, 07:40 PM

In all seriousness though, according to RAW nothing happens when Charm Person ends, so presumably, their attitude, which in Charm Persons case is friendly, would remain the same.

But does it say anything about if they remember everything that happened?

My thoughts are if the subject keeps their memories and they legitimately had good times together and shared awesome moments like roller coaster riders and the spellcaster saved the subject's life or something of the sort: their attitude might change. They'll be a bit mad that you put them under a spell, but they might forgive you.

TheCrowing1432

2014-12-04, 07:58 PM

But does it say anything about if they remember everything that happened?

My thoughts are if the subject keeps their memories and they legitimately had good times together and shared awesome moments like roller coaster riders and the spellcaster saved the subject's life or something of the sort: their attitude might change. They'll be a bit mad that you put them under a spell, but they might forgive you.

But would they know they're under a spell? I mean they did fail the will save.

I hate to use the books for this, but Regis had a gem of charm person that he uses quite often and the people he used it on didnt remember or realize what had happened until they were told by others.

I know the books arent the game, but i think its a relevant example.

atemu1234

2014-12-04, 08:15 PM

But would they know they're under a spell? I mean they did fail the will save.

I hate to use the books for this, but Regis had a gem of charm person that he uses quite often and the people he used it on didnt remember or realize what had happened until they were told by others.

I know the books arent the game, but i think its a relevant example.

"I don't know, Tom. It just seems like the magic has left."

ZamielVanWeber

2014-12-04, 08:22 PM

But does it say anything about if they remember everything that happened?

My thoughts are if the subject keeps their memories and they legitimately had good times together and shared awesome moments like roller coaster riders and the spellcaster saved the subject's life or something of the sort: their attitude might change. They'll be a bit mad that you put them under a spell, but they might forgive you.

Even if I had good times, if I knew that I was charmed I would murder them in their sleep first chance I got and never look back. Magical compulsion represents a pretty severe violation of person.

My best guess mechanically is that it would default to whatever their attitude was before they were charmed, so you would use diplomacy off of that. If the DM rules they remembered being charmed that would probably lower their attitude/provide a circumstance penalty and if they don't remember being charmed would raise their attitude/provide a circumstance bonus.

Pyon

2014-12-04, 08:29 PM

Even if I had good times, if I knew that I was charmed I would murder them in their sleep first chance I got and never look back. Magical compulsion represents a pretty severe violation of person.

My best guess mechanically is that it would default to whatever their attitude was before they were charmed, so you would use diplomacy off of that. If the DM rules they remembered being charmed that would probably lower their attitude/provide a circumstance penalty and if they don't remember being charmed would raise their attitude/provide a circumstance bonus.

I'm not saying jump straight into best friends. The best way is probably some morality system like in Fallout NV, where you can be loved but people remember you killed a bunch of people once and that wasn't cool at all. And it also depends on the personality of the person.... So ultimately:

It's up to the DM as everything :P

Der_DWSage

2014-12-04, 08:37 PM

Sadly, the best jokes have already been taken. Accursed friendly Ninja.

And...hm. There's not really a RAW answer for this (Especially since RAW says they only treat their attitude [b]as if[/i] it were friendly, not that they're actually friendly.) RAI? I'd say as soon as the Charm wears off so long as you treated them well, but it varies between cases. Did you actually treat them as a friend while charmed, or did you treat them as a disposable meatshield? Did you use it as a foot in the door to actual diplomatic relations, or did you just boss him around with opposed Charisma checks?

Even in the case of, well, people like Zamiel above, the friendliest folk would probably get a 'That wasn't a good thing you did to me, and if you care at all, you'll never do it again' reaction before they go to straight murder. If you use it on murder-hobos...that's a different matter.

ZamielVanWeber

2014-12-04, 08:45 PM

Even in the case of, well, people like Zamiel above, the friendliest folk would probably get a 'That wasn't a good thing you did to me, and if you care at all, you'll never do it again' reaction before they go to straight murder. If you use it on murder-hobos...that's a different matter.

I have bipolar with psychosis, so not being in control of my actions is something I am too familiar with, so I would react badly out of habit. Regardless, people will be ticked as being magically manipulated.

Mr.Cobalt

2014-12-04, 08:49 PM

I would see it mostly being dependent upon whether or not they remember what happened while being charmed and/or what you two did while they were under "Charm Person"- i.e. "YOU USED ME!!!" vs. "You know we probably could have been friends if you just asked..."

TheCrowing1432

2014-12-04, 09:15 PM

Mmm.

Id have to make them make a spellcraft check to understand what happened to them if they failed the will save.

If you charmed a farmer who never delt with magic in his life, theres little reason they would say "you magic'd me"

Even in a setting where magic is common you cant just blame everything on magic.

unseenmage

2014-12-04, 09:18 PM

...

Even in the case of, well, people like Zamiel above, the friendliest folk would probably get a 'That wasn't a good thing you did to me, and if you care at all, you'll never do it again' reaction before they go to straight murder. If you use it on murder-hobos...that's a different matter.
Emphasis mine.

I kind of hate to shake this can of worms but the bolded did make me wonder how alignments would change the equation.
Evil might like being mind controlled, then again there's nothing stopping Good from liking it either under tailored circumstances.

Chaotic might not care, Lawful could be accepting of it it's all done legal like with all the right papers signed and filed.

Then again, the personalities involved might matter more than the alignments. Each DM/game interprets both differently.

TheCrowing1432

2014-12-04, 09:28 PM

Id also like to point to how getting them harmed breaks the enchantment and doing things against their nature causes penalties.

Id say that if the enchantment is forcibly broken, they become aware of what happened.

If they do things against their nature and the enchantment wears off on its own, id say they become suspicious of you and the party.

If they do things that are within their nature and not outside the realm of logical actions that they themselves would take, then id say they dont remember anything, other then the heightened sense of friendliness towards you.

ZamielVanWeber

2014-12-04, 09:29 PM

Evil is the most likely to react violently to being mind controlled/mentally influenced. They would do it happily and just hate to be the victims of it. Lawful would never sign to it (because that is just dumb), but it might be legal in some places to magically coerce subordinates to do your bidding. Chaotic would hate it; chaos is all about freedom and charm and compulsion effects strip the right of a person to choose, at the very least choose how the feel about someone. Good would probably view magical coercion as a more humane punishment/less violent way of ending conflict, but not something to do on a whim.

Der_DWSage

2014-12-04, 10:41 PM

Emphasis mine.

I kind of hate to shake this can of worms but the bolded did make me wonder how alignments would change the equation.
Evil might like being mind controlled, then again there's nothing stopping Good from liking it either under tailored circumstances.

Chaotic might not care, Lawful could be accepting of it it's all done legal like with all the right papers signed and filed.

Stop that train of thought on the tracks. Alignments don't work into this at all, with the potential exception of Chaotic hating it more than others. Individual attitude is what will matter, as well as the circumstances of what you did to them when they were charmed.

(Also, how do you figure that Evil would enjoy being mind-controlled? That is the opposite of what one would expect.)