The evil Pallylock: build possibilities?

[Yagyujubei]

I'm about to leave work and get my book so I can get the specifics myself, but I'm gonna be starting a mid level evil campaign so i wanna roll the much anticipated evil pally/warlock. the two breakpoints for me seem like PLD17/WLK3 for mainly pld with EB goodies, and WLK13/PLD7 for a bladelock with aura and smites.

any other builds ppl can think of, or pros and cons for those splits? I'm not super well versed in pally and have never played one before so I don't really know what the big cutoff levels and best features are...

[Madfellow]

I'm about to leave work and get my book so I can get the specifics myself, but I'm gonna be starting a mid level evil campaign so i wanna roll the much anticipated evil pally/warlock. the two breakpoints for me seem like PLD17/WLK3 for mainly pld with EB goodies, and WLK13/PLD7 for a bladelock with aura and smites.

any other builds ppl can think of, or pros and cons for those splits? I'm not super well versed in pally and have never played one before so I don't really know what the big cutoff levels and best features are...

Generally speaking I don't like to see odd numbers when splitting up class levels like that, because it means you're giving up an Ability Score Increase/Feat.

What level is the campaign starting at, and do you know how many levels you're going to get by the end of it?

[Giant2005]

Warlock and Paladin don't really synergize very well... Their important class features arrive late enough that they are virtually mutually exclusive with each other.
At a minimum, Paladin 7 should be mandatory for the +cha to damage. With that in mind, you have to choose what is more important to you: +1D8 damage per attack from Paladin 11 or +cha to damage from Warlock 12. If you take the Warlock 12 option, that only leaves 1 level remaining which may as well go on Paladin for the ASI. If you take the Paladin 11 option, you have 9 levels left, none of which would be benefitted by being a Warlock. You are better off going with Pally 11 and Sorc or Bard for the remaining levels for the extra spell slots - you could even do Pally 12, Sorc/Bard 5, Fighter/Rogue 3 and end up with all of the useful Paladin abilities, more caster levels than a straight Paladin and the benefits of Rogue or Fighter 3.

[bloodshed343]

8/12 pally/warlock is a good split. The important bits are Hex, EB, agonizing blast, etc. You can be a ranged blaster or a melee lock. Pact of the tome might be better than pact of the blade though.

[Pramxnim]

Seems like you want a melee focused character then. What level will you be starting at exactly? Whatever your answer, I recommend 6 levels of Pally before any Warlock levels. That way you get +Cha mod to saves and Extra Attack, the two most awesome features for a front liner. Then you may want to get your 7th Pally level too for the damage aura before going into Warlock.

2 levels of Warlock give you 2 spell slots you can Smite with as well as Agonizing Eldritch Blasts for a ranged option. 3 levels bump those spell slots to lvl 2 for more dmg on Smite.

If you want spell casting past 5th lvl go warlock past 11. Otherwise go Pally to 11th for improved smite. I think an 11/9 split is good, but 13 Warlock/ 7 Pally is fine too.

[SliceandDiceKid]

I'd advise you to go heavier Paladin. The d8 per hit is pretty much cha to damage. The difference is statistically negligible, even if the cha is more consistent.

Dipping warlock is great for refreshing spell slots, but I'd advise no more than 3 levels. And that cuts off aura improved range. Stick with paladin for better healing, more slots, and put some smackdown on those baddies!

[Totema]

"Pallylock"? I preferred calling them Waradins. :smalltongue:

[odigity]

Generally speaking I don't like to see odd numbers when splitting up class levels like that, because it means you're giving up an Ability Score Increase/Feat.

I know what you mean, but you have to compare the value of the ASI/Feat to the feature you're losing, including how much you subjectively value each for your char (not just which is more optimized mathematically).

Though I find it odd they're going Warlock 13 / Paladin 7. I'm planning on going Paladin 13 / Warlock 7, because I want 4th lvl spells from each, and being able to use Warlock slots to cast Ice Storm (Oath of Ancients) all day long. :)


Warlock and Paladin don't really synergize very well... Their important class features arrive late enough that they are virtually mutually exclusive with each other.

Disagree. They both get great features in the early levels. In fact, Warlock is probably one of the three most popular 2 lvl dips in 5e. Warlock synergizes with anything Cha-based or SAD (like Rogue) better than anything. It's the dipping class.

[pwykersotz]

My personal breakpoint for Paladin is either level 11 or 12 depending on the importance of the feat/asi to your build. If you do Paladin 11/Warlock 9 you get 5th level slots and an extra invocation compared to Paladin 12/Warlock 8. If you go pure paladin up to the breakpoint, you have an excellent, competitive character during the entire leveling process, and then EB comes online with 3 beams as soon as you get it.

[Giant2005]

Disagree. They both get great features in the early levels. In fact, Warlock is probably one of the three most popular 2 lvl dips in 5e. Warlock synergizes with anything Cha-based or SAD (like Rogue) better than anything. It's the dipping class.
Yes Warlocks are great for dipping, just not for Paladins.
The low level dip in Warlock gives you little more than a great ranged attack. None of the Paladin's abilities work at range and none of what you get from the Warlock works in melee (Excluding the level 12 +chamod to damage whihc won't factor into a dip). Neither class has little more than a change of focus to offer the other class and dedicating levels to a style that isn't your strength will always leave you weaker than someone that mastered their style.
Having said that, Warlock levels do have one thing to offer which is beneficial to the Paladin and that is Hellish Rebuke. Hellish Rebuke offers more damage per level of the spell slot used than any of the Paladin's Smites so it is far more efficient to use spell slots on that than it is smiting. The problem in this case is that the Oathbreaker Paladin (Which to OP is discussing) gets that spell at level 3 without requiring Warlock levels.

[Yagyujubei]

yeah but getting that strong ranged option give paladin alot of versatility for when they're not up in the enemies face. My campaign I have been told will be starting at level 10 or 11 and going all the way to 20 assuming people don't punk out, and will be an evil campaign so I'm counting on a necro to benefit from the paladin aura.

The reason I was thinking warlock 13 was because I was at least going to 12 in either class for the ASI when I split, and getting the 7th level slot seemed potentially more useful than another feat/bump depending upon what my rolls are.

but yeah....improved divine smite... 11/9 might be the way to go here, but it seems like to really make full use of that I'll need the polearm master/sentinel combo...so then 12/8 might be the better choice for the 5th feat...but then I lose 5th level spell slots...such hard choices ><

[Giant2005]

Are you pretty set on Warlock?
You could get your 5th level spells (and higher) by taking those 8 levels in another full casting class - you might want to consider having those Necromancer levels yourself! It would make your madness even worse in theory but you don't really need too much Int as long as you stick to Wizard spells that don't require saves and leave all the combat abilities to your Pally skills. You would just need a minimum of 13 to be able to multi into the Wizard class.
Other options are Bard/Sorc and Monk.
Bard/Sorc don't really do too much to enhance your Pally abilities other than give you a lot more spell slots to play with (12 Paladin/8 Sorc/Bard would have spell slots all the way up to level 7 which is the perfect level for a max strength Elemental Weapon spell). I'd probably recommend Bard because they bring a lot more to the table than Sorcs for a non-dedicated caster.
Monk is the other option and it too would seem to add to your MAD issue but you can pretty much ignore the Monk abilities as long as you have the 13 Dex and Wis required to take the class in the first place. If you can take Monk, you can continue using Plate (And a shield if that is your wish) and whatever weapon you want without losing too much of the Monk stuff. Basically the real draw to being a Monk is Flurry of Blows which you can use while armored and with any weapon equipped for an extra two attacks per turn. However taking Monk levels will seriously hurt your spell slots (12 Pally/8 Monk will only have a total of 10 spell slots spread between levels 1-3) so you might want to take less Monk levels and add a few full spellcaster levels to increase those slots and try to balance out how many spell slots you want vs Ki points.

[Yagyujubei]

well I was thinking of playing a fiend bladelock style with Armor of Agathys and Flame shield while I waded around the battle and sliced stuff up.

I just thought Paladin would add alot of tankiness/versatility/party support and what have you.

[Scirocco]

Assuming you're allowed to burn your Pact Magic slots to power Smite, it does give you two "free" Smites per short rest. But by RAW that seems to be on shaky ground.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Assuming you're allowed to burn your Pact Magic slots to power Smite, it does give you two "free" Smites per short rest. But by RAW that seems to be on shaky ground.

Does it seem to be on shaky ground? The text regarding pact magic under multiclassing clearly indicates to me that the slots are meant to be interchangeable. This edition nurtures multiclassing more than any other edition, and tries to seemlessly weave abilities together in a (attempted) balanced manner.

It's not broken, it doesn't clearly defy the rules, and it makes the player feel awesome.

[Giant2005]

Does it seem to be on shaky ground? The text regarding pact magic under multiclassing clearly indicates to me that the slots are meant to be interchangeable. This edition nurtures multiclassing more than any other edition, and tries to seemlessly weave abilities together in a (attempted) balanced manner.

It's not broken, it doesn't clearly defy the rules, and it makes the player feel awesome.

I think he considers it shaky ground on the basis that the Paladin's Smite ability specifically states "Paladin Spell Slots".

[SliceandDiceKid]

I think he considers it shaky ground on the basis that the Paladin's Smite ability specifically states "Paladin Spell Slots".

Has anyone had an issue with this yet at a table? I can see this not being allowed, based on strict RAW, but then all other class slots are subject to this ruling too, right? Not just pact magic, as stated.

Either way, I'd allow it and I don't personally know a DM who wouldn't.

[pwykersotz]

I think he considers it shaky ground on the basis that the Paladin's Smite ability specifically states "Paladin Spell Slots".

That text regarding "Paladin spell slots" was clarified to be redundant. It has no special meaning. Here's (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/502856220537913345) the first tweet, and here's (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/537012576555528194) the second where he almost rules opposite then corrects himself.