Ruethgar
2014-12-04, 09:03 PM
So I have been searching for a while now on the prices of land or the typical amount of land granted to a noble and finally found official content(though old in DrMag #80) giving a low end of 40 ha(630x630 meters, about half of what's north of 97th St. Central Park) to support a manor. Unfortunately no prices on the land, but just take a level of Aristocrat, kill your family who might lay claim to it and call it yours. How would the playground develop that much land?
To make it a bit more challenging, provide examples for how you would develop it and be sustainable in E6 and E3.
E3
Character: Prince Charming
32pt buy Str 8 Dex 12 Con 12 Wis 14 Int 10 Cha 24
LN Magic Blooded Unseelie Lesser Aasimar
Martial Monk 1/Marshal 1(for diplomancy)/Aristocrat 1
Monk: Leadership(via the Commander Fighter bonus feat list)
Flaw: Extra Followers
Flaw: Improved Cohort
1st: Practiced Cohort
Marshal: Skill Focus(Diplomacy)
3rd: Inspirational Leadership
Skills: Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Perform(Oratory), Bluff
Cha +6, lvl 3, feats +4, fairness +1, special power +1, aloof -1, stronghold +2, moves -1= 15
48 people should be enough for a thorp granted they are retrained properly. My DM rules that 90% of the followers are commoners(42), 5% experts(2), 3% warriors(1) and only 2% are PC classed(1). He talks his way out of most fights with a nice +18 to all charisma checks(21 to diplomacy). He can generate an average of 21g/week after taxes, 3g/week going to the community(if not more should he choose it) if he is traveling around to "prosperous cities" and can quickly become a very well known(although still lesser) noble.
Followers of Note:
Bob level 3 Commoner is the builder.
Peasant Array Str 10 Dex 11 Con 11 Wis 10 Int 11 Cha 10
LN Human
Flaw: Extraordinary Artisan
Flaw: Exceptional Artisan
1st: Create Device(Scroll)
Human: Magical Artisan(Extraordinary)
3rd: Magical Artisan(Exceptional)
Very nice for all your cheap mundane crafting needs, 58% reduction in time and money.
Simon Petrikov level Wizard 1/Human Paragon 2 is a Whispering Way mage.
Peasant Array Str 9 Dex 9 Con 12 Wis 12 Int 12 Cha 5
NG Middle Aged Arctic Human
Flaw(Pathetic Charisma): Magical Training(Minor Move, Unseen Servant, Alter Self)
Flaw(Pathetic Charisma): Precocious Apprentice(Distilled Joy)
1st: Endurance
Wizard: Scribe Scroll
Human: Enduring Life
3rd: Lasting Life
Paragon: Brew Potion
This is your money maker. By choosing Whispering Way spells for Precocious and Magical Training he gains access to higher level spells at the cost of a negative level on casting. Although feats bypass learning prerequisites, he still can't learn whispering spells as a part of his normal wizardry. He delays the negative level for 1 minute in which time he has to make a standard action DC 8 Will save to prevent taking it. Summon Monster I:Elysian Thrush goes very well with Distilled Joy and now you have a crafting farm.
The Four Seconds all the level 2 Commoners are common magi.
Peasant Array Str 10 Dex 9 Con 11 Wis 10 Int 13 Cha 10
N Deep Imaskari
Flaw: Magical Training(A lot)
Flaw: Precocious Apprentice(Mostly Utility to fuel Simon's Brew Potion)
1st: Scribe Scroll
The Common Merchant 5 level 1 Commoners
Peasant Array Str 10 Dex 11 Con 11 Wis 10 Int 11 Cha 10
LN Human
Flaw: Skill Focus
Flaw: Mercantile Background
1st: Laborious Training
Human: Apprentice Crafter
Craft check average of 21 for 50g/week from the craftsmen. Tax 25% for 6g/week for local causes.
The Common Little Man 5 level 1 Commoners
Peasant Array Str 10 Dex 11 Con 11 Wis 10 Int 11 Cha 10
N Forest Gnome
Flaw: Animal Friends
Flaw: Animal Affinity
1st: Handle Animal
Magebred Servals will keep vermin at bay as normal cats would, you don't have to spend nearly as much from taxes on the animals protecting you, and you have 10 of them which should be enough for a regular guard. With the grand leader there to help train, Handle Animal +15 is enough to easily train the beasties. On average the gnomes produce 3g/week in local taxes.
Servals 10
Str 16 Dex 19 Con 15 Wis 12 Int 2 Cha 7
Flaw: Skill Focus(Spot)
Flaw: Extra Tricks
1st: Open Minded
Magebred: Alertness, Swift Breed
Skills: Balance +8, Hide +12, Climb +8, Jump +12, Move Silently +10, Listen +12, Spot +9
Tricks: Guard, Herd, Defend, Attack, Subdue, Down, Assist Defend, Alert, Come, Stay
I'm sure you could mash those tricks up into a trained for purpose package to defend an area(though Herd pretty much covers that).
Father Hive Mind level 1 Commoner
Peasant Array Str 10 Dex 11 Con 11 Wis 13 Int 10 Cha 12
LE Lesser Aasimar
Flaw: Apprentice (Philosopher)
Flaw: Fell Conspiracy
1st: Research
The Clergy 4 level 1 Commoners
Peasant Array Str 10 Dex 11 Con 10 Wis 11 Int 10 Cha 13
LN Magic Blooded Human
Flaw: God Touched
Flaw: Divine Channeler
1st: Minor Divine Spellcasting
Human: Magical Training
Average 7s/week in local taxes.
The Others 25 level 1 Commoners
Peasant Array Str 10 Dex 11 Con 11 Wis 11 Int 10 Cha 10
LN Human
Flaw: Skill Focus(Profession or Craft)
Flaw: Open Minded
1st: Apprentice: Woodsman
Human: Skill Focus(Survival)
Skills into Survival, Profession and 5 into flavor. Survival +9 means they can automatically feed themselves. Nets 25g per week in local taxes.
Money:
Assuming 25% tax a little over half of which is national and about a 10% tithe to the church and the church paying taxes.
Income:
Taxes: 34g/week
Stronghold: 1g/week
Prince: 3g/week
Church: 5g/week
Builder's Fund: 30g/week
Total: 73g/week
Costs:
Guards: 7g/day(least we can do is feed the kitties)
Tax Collector: 6g/week
Building: 25g/week
Savings: 5g/week
Citizen Costs: Average
Taxes: 2g/week
Rent to Own: 1g/week
Common Meals: 2g/week
Misc. Supplies: 1g/week
Savings: 1g/week
Builder's Fund: 1g/week
The buildings are owned mostly by the merchants though the land is yours, so the tenants do have to rent to buy the buildings for about 20years. The rent prices are maximized Sharn rent for a poor house. Renting an inn room is only 4s more so it seems a fair estimate. The food is assuming you make your own most of the time and 1.3g to spend on ale or tavern meals.
Land:
2075ft across, so 415 squares. Lets give a buffer of 87.5 ft on each side so now nice and even at 300 squares. A simple home for 6 costs 900g before adjustments and takes a 6x6 area. Lets put 4 between them for 10x10. For the above thorp you need 8 of these houses for 7200g add on a few bathrooms for a total of 8800g and 100x10ft used. I'm going to assume you're building it yourself, in temperate plains, near no town, controlling arable land and a goat herd, you own the land by being a noble but lets give you a break and say your cousin claims it as well, your builder is actually spearheading the mission, so total discount 65%. 3119g gets you a village(which the 5 merchants above can pay for half of out of pocket).
Let's get the other basics out of the way, these aren't 100% needed per se, but make the village seem more like a village.
Armory and Smithy ~340
Chapel Library and Study ~575
Jailhouse and Prison Cell(2) ~500
Shop(5) ~675
Tavern and Stable ~640
Storage(2) ~170
Workplace(5) ~840)
Total with Discount: 3934g and your stronghold income increases to 2.3g/week
Simon, the Clergy and the Four Seconds can all take the Grass Growth side effect on one or two of their spells meaning that the farmers will mostly be harvesting grasses: grain, sugarcane, bamboo and so forth. This lessens farmland and grazing area greatly since these crops are now a near infinite resource.
I looked at the business rules in DMGII... all NPCs would die of starvation. Even optimizing it, you cannot manage to even break even on a level one without some serious shenanigans.
To make it a bit more challenging, provide examples for how you would develop it and be sustainable in E6 and E3.
E3
Character: Prince Charming
32pt buy Str 8 Dex 12 Con 12 Wis 14 Int 10 Cha 24
LN Magic Blooded Unseelie Lesser Aasimar
Martial Monk 1/Marshal 1(for diplomancy)/Aristocrat 1
Monk: Leadership(via the Commander Fighter bonus feat list)
Flaw: Extra Followers
Flaw: Improved Cohort
1st: Practiced Cohort
Marshal: Skill Focus(Diplomacy)
3rd: Inspirational Leadership
Skills: Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Perform(Oratory), Bluff
Cha +6, lvl 3, feats +4, fairness +1, special power +1, aloof -1, stronghold +2, moves -1= 15
48 people should be enough for a thorp granted they are retrained properly. My DM rules that 90% of the followers are commoners(42), 5% experts(2), 3% warriors(1) and only 2% are PC classed(1). He talks his way out of most fights with a nice +18 to all charisma checks(21 to diplomacy). He can generate an average of 21g/week after taxes, 3g/week going to the community(if not more should he choose it) if he is traveling around to "prosperous cities" and can quickly become a very well known(although still lesser) noble.
Followers of Note:
Bob level 3 Commoner is the builder.
Peasant Array Str 10 Dex 11 Con 11 Wis 10 Int 11 Cha 10
LN Human
Flaw: Extraordinary Artisan
Flaw: Exceptional Artisan
1st: Create Device(Scroll)
Human: Magical Artisan(Extraordinary)
3rd: Magical Artisan(Exceptional)
Very nice for all your cheap mundane crafting needs, 58% reduction in time and money.
Simon Petrikov level Wizard 1/Human Paragon 2 is a Whispering Way mage.
Peasant Array Str 9 Dex 9 Con 12 Wis 12 Int 12 Cha 5
NG Middle Aged Arctic Human
Flaw(Pathetic Charisma): Magical Training(Minor Move, Unseen Servant, Alter Self)
Flaw(Pathetic Charisma): Precocious Apprentice(Distilled Joy)
1st: Endurance
Wizard: Scribe Scroll
Human: Enduring Life
3rd: Lasting Life
Paragon: Brew Potion
This is your money maker. By choosing Whispering Way spells for Precocious and Magical Training he gains access to higher level spells at the cost of a negative level on casting. Although feats bypass learning prerequisites, he still can't learn whispering spells as a part of his normal wizardry. He delays the negative level for 1 minute in which time he has to make a standard action DC 8 Will save to prevent taking it. Summon Monster I:Elysian Thrush goes very well with Distilled Joy and now you have a crafting farm.
The Four Seconds all the level 2 Commoners are common magi.
Peasant Array Str 10 Dex 9 Con 11 Wis 10 Int 13 Cha 10
N Deep Imaskari
Flaw: Magical Training(A lot)
Flaw: Precocious Apprentice(Mostly Utility to fuel Simon's Brew Potion)
1st: Scribe Scroll
The Common Merchant 5 level 1 Commoners
Peasant Array Str 10 Dex 11 Con 11 Wis 10 Int 11 Cha 10
LN Human
Flaw: Skill Focus
Flaw: Mercantile Background
1st: Laborious Training
Human: Apprentice Crafter
Craft check average of 21 for 50g/week from the craftsmen. Tax 25% for 6g/week for local causes.
The Common Little Man 5 level 1 Commoners
Peasant Array Str 10 Dex 11 Con 11 Wis 10 Int 11 Cha 10
N Forest Gnome
Flaw: Animal Friends
Flaw: Animal Affinity
1st: Handle Animal
Magebred Servals will keep vermin at bay as normal cats would, you don't have to spend nearly as much from taxes on the animals protecting you, and you have 10 of them which should be enough for a regular guard. With the grand leader there to help train, Handle Animal +15 is enough to easily train the beasties. On average the gnomes produce 3g/week in local taxes.
Servals 10
Str 16 Dex 19 Con 15 Wis 12 Int 2 Cha 7
Flaw: Skill Focus(Spot)
Flaw: Extra Tricks
1st: Open Minded
Magebred: Alertness, Swift Breed
Skills: Balance +8, Hide +12, Climb +8, Jump +12, Move Silently +10, Listen +12, Spot +9
Tricks: Guard, Herd, Defend, Attack, Subdue, Down, Assist Defend, Alert, Come, Stay
I'm sure you could mash those tricks up into a trained for purpose package to defend an area(though Herd pretty much covers that).
Father Hive Mind level 1 Commoner
Peasant Array Str 10 Dex 11 Con 11 Wis 13 Int 10 Cha 12
LE Lesser Aasimar
Flaw: Apprentice (Philosopher)
Flaw: Fell Conspiracy
1st: Research
The Clergy 4 level 1 Commoners
Peasant Array Str 10 Dex 11 Con 10 Wis 11 Int 10 Cha 13
LN Magic Blooded Human
Flaw: God Touched
Flaw: Divine Channeler
1st: Minor Divine Spellcasting
Human: Magical Training
Average 7s/week in local taxes.
The Others 25 level 1 Commoners
Peasant Array Str 10 Dex 11 Con 11 Wis 11 Int 10 Cha 10
LN Human
Flaw: Skill Focus(Profession or Craft)
Flaw: Open Minded
1st: Apprentice: Woodsman
Human: Skill Focus(Survival)
Skills into Survival, Profession and 5 into flavor. Survival +9 means they can automatically feed themselves. Nets 25g per week in local taxes.
Money:
Assuming 25% tax a little over half of which is national and about a 10% tithe to the church and the church paying taxes.
Income:
Taxes: 34g/week
Stronghold: 1g/week
Prince: 3g/week
Church: 5g/week
Builder's Fund: 30g/week
Total: 73g/week
Costs:
Guards: 7g/day(least we can do is feed the kitties)
Tax Collector: 6g/week
Building: 25g/week
Savings: 5g/week
Citizen Costs: Average
Taxes: 2g/week
Rent to Own: 1g/week
Common Meals: 2g/week
Misc. Supplies: 1g/week
Savings: 1g/week
Builder's Fund: 1g/week
The buildings are owned mostly by the merchants though the land is yours, so the tenants do have to rent to buy the buildings for about 20years. The rent prices are maximized Sharn rent for a poor house. Renting an inn room is only 4s more so it seems a fair estimate. The food is assuming you make your own most of the time and 1.3g to spend on ale or tavern meals.
Land:
2075ft across, so 415 squares. Lets give a buffer of 87.5 ft on each side so now nice and even at 300 squares. A simple home for 6 costs 900g before adjustments and takes a 6x6 area. Lets put 4 between them for 10x10. For the above thorp you need 8 of these houses for 7200g add on a few bathrooms for a total of 8800g and 100x10ft used. I'm going to assume you're building it yourself, in temperate plains, near no town, controlling arable land and a goat herd, you own the land by being a noble but lets give you a break and say your cousin claims it as well, your builder is actually spearheading the mission, so total discount 65%. 3119g gets you a village(which the 5 merchants above can pay for half of out of pocket).
Let's get the other basics out of the way, these aren't 100% needed per se, but make the village seem more like a village.
Armory and Smithy ~340
Chapel Library and Study ~575
Jailhouse and Prison Cell(2) ~500
Shop(5) ~675
Tavern and Stable ~640
Storage(2) ~170
Workplace(5) ~840)
Total with Discount: 3934g and your stronghold income increases to 2.3g/week
Simon, the Clergy and the Four Seconds can all take the Grass Growth side effect on one or two of their spells meaning that the farmers will mostly be harvesting grasses: grain, sugarcane, bamboo and so forth. This lessens farmland and grazing area greatly since these crops are now a near infinite resource.
I looked at the business rules in DMGII... all NPCs would die of starvation. Even optimizing it, you cannot manage to even break even on a level one without some serious shenanigans.