[PF] What is the best Tank build?

[Xaragos]

I am trying to help a friend make a character for our group that is need of a good tank. What does the playground recommend as the best Tank builds out there for a character starting at level 1 planning on playing all the way to 20.

[Teh_das]

Check out the Oradin, it's a good healer and a fantastic tank, with the ability to heal itself significantly as a swift action.

[Elricaltovilla]

What books/allowed content is available?

[AvatarVecna]

If you're looking for a mundane solution, either a weapon-and-shield fighter or a reach weapon fighter can do quite nicely. Focus your feats on offense and your items on a mix of offense and defense; in particular, you want your fighter to focus on combat maneuvers and locking down enemies rather than pure damage. There's some neat tricks you can use to throw together an AoO monster who can lock down a rather wide area; add that to the fighter's high AC, defense-focused items, and high HP, and you've got a winner.

[(Un)Inspired]

Pathfinder isn't really the sort of game that "tanks " work in very well.

There's aren't really a selection of abilities that will force any enemy to attack you and doing enough damage to trivialize even the highest players HP is unbelievably simple. The same goes for attack pluses and AC.

I think the best you can hope for is layering large numbers of miss chances on you character and acquiring a means of taking standard actions on another characters turn.

To that end I believe wizards are the best tank in Pathfinder.

[Xaragos]

All sources are available for use :)

[Extra Anchovies]

To that end I believe wizards are the best tank in Pathfinder.

Indeed. The best way to go about area denial is to lay down BFC from ranged. I like Goblin Alchemists for this; since the fog cloud/stinking cloud/acid fog/incendiary cloud bomb discoveries form clouds of radius = 2x bomb radius, you can combine them with Rocket Bombs for 40-ft. radius clouds. Even a non-goblin with the discovery that changes base radius to 10 feet is pretty solid, but there's nothing quite like filling the entire dungeon with burning gas.

If you want mundane, a reach lockdown build is as good as you're gonna get. The keystone of any tank is the ability to 1) take lots of hits and 2) pull aggro away from the rest of the party. Only the first can be reliably done without third-party material.

ETA: If third-party is in, take a look at the Warder from Dreamscarred Press's Path of War (the whole of which is on the SRD). Focus on the Iron Tortoise discipline, and pick up a few maneuvers from Golden Lion for action economy manipulation. If you're familiar with ToB you'll quickly get the hang of PoW, because it's a third-party ToB reimagining.

[(Un)Inspired]

Indeed. The best way to go about area denial is to lay down BFC from ranged. I like Goblin Alchemists for this; since the fog cloud/stinking cloud/acid fog/incendiary cloud bomb discoveries form clouds of radius = 2x bomb radius, you can combine them with Rocket Bombs for 40-ft. radius clouds. Even a non-goblin with the discovery that changes base radius to 10 feet is pretty solid, but there's nothing quite like filling the entire dungeon with burning gas.

If you want mundane, a reach lockdown build is as good as you're gonna get. The keystone of any tank is the ability to 1) take lots of hits and 2) pull aggro away from the rest of the party. Only the first can be reliably done without third-party material.

ETA: If third-party is in, take a look at the Warder from Dreamscarred Press's Path of War (the whole of which is on the SRD). Focus on the Iron Tortoise discipline, and pick up a few maneuvers from Golden Lion for action economy manipulation. If you're familiar with ToB you'll quickly get the hang of PoW, because it's a third-party ToB reimagining.

How do you go about doing number 1?

[Extra Anchovies]

How do you go about doing number 1?

Any/all of the following:

High armor class
Miss chances (preferably non-concealment, so you're still targetable)
Damage reduction
Fast healing
Self-healing that doesn't hurt your action economy (e.g. Lay on Hands)

[Elricaltovilla]

All sources are available for use :)

Okay now, when you say all sources, does that include 3rd party? Because, frankly, the only real "tank" class in the game is the 3rd part Warder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder) class from Dreamscarred Press's Path of War. The Warder has challenge abilities, a focus on heavy armor with high AC and saves, and access to reactionary abilities which protect both herself and her allies. There's a link to a guide for the Warder and the other DSP classes in my sig.

Now, if you don't have access to 3rd party material, Oradin (Paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin)/Oracle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle) multiclass) builds are a good way to go, but they're more about damage mitigation than actually forcing the enemy to target you. There are guides to building an Oradin available on the net in places.

Cavaliers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier) have access to challenge abilities, but their class features aren't that great and they have really limited usage.

Warpriests (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/warpriest) can make decent tanks, since they have self healing and buffing for survivability, and can use spells to force enemies to attack them but they'll be pretty limited in the per day department.

If you have some way of forcing enemies to target you, the Barbarian (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian) can use the Come and Get Me (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/come-and-get-me-ex) rage power to punish enemies for attacking him. But that won't come online til 12th level and the barbarian suffers from not having native access to healing.

Those are probably the "best" options in Pathfinder, although some of them I'm loathe to even call options.

[(Un)Inspired]

Any/all of the following:

High armor class
Miss chances (preferably non-concealment, so you're still targetable)
Damage reduction
Fast healing
Self-healing that doesn't hurt your action economy (e.g. Lay on Hands)


How does a mundane get their AC to the point that they can reliably avoid touch attacks?

How's does a mundane get high miss chances that aren't concealment?

I don't think fast healing or lay on hands help when damage can kill a player in one turn.

I'd really like to know how to take care of these problems on a mundane cause if they're possible then I'd like to fill in this whole in my knowledge.

[grarrrg]

the barbarian suffers from not having native access to healing.

Not true in fact, but true enough in spirit.
There are 2 Rage Powers that heal, and 1 that grants Temp HP.
Renewed Vigor is a 1/_day_ power, and Regenerative Vigor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/regenerative-vigor-ex) gives Fast Healing, but only triggers after using Renewed Vigor.
Energy Absorption (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/energy-absorption-su) is actually pretty freaking sweet... _when_ it triggers.


Anywho, as long as we are talking about Tank Barbarians, you can't go wrong with Invulnerable Rager (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/invulnerable-rager) + Improved Stalwart (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/improved-stalwart).

[Ellowryn]

How does a mundane get their AC to the point that they can reliably avoid touch attacks?

How's does a mundane get high miss chances that aren't concealment?

I don't think fast healing or lay on hands help when damage can kill a player in one turn.

I'd really like to know how to take care of these problems on a mundane cause if they're possible then I'd like to fill in this whole in my knowledge.

If you are in a campaign that focuses on BBEG's that target touch Ac with enough damage to kill you outright then NO, there is nothing you can do as a mundane to offset this. Ever.

I am also thirding (forthing?) Warder. Thanks to the mark ability, along with several iron tortoise maneuvers, you can force opponents to target you even if you have concealment. There is also a discipline that you can get access to called silver crane that gives you healing strikes.

[Feint's End]

Well there are are a few classes which work fairly well as tanks since they actually have "tanking mechanics". They are third party which might be a problem. It is Dreamscarred Press though is considered widely to be balanced better than Paizo material.

I'm talking about the Warder from Path of War and the Psychic Warrior with the Protector Archetype. Both of those can actually "tank" in that they have mechanics to protect their allies. Warder is maybe a bit simpler but Psychic Warrior has some powerful options too and has better offense.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

The best 'Tank' build I've seen is an Order of the Dragon cavalier, with a whole bunch of teamwork feats that encourage people to be close to him, Bodyguard, a trait that does something similar, and Antagonize. Don't know how it comes out, but in practical play it works wonderfully. Also a good skillmonkey.

[GreyBlack]

My current build is a Ranger (shapeshifter) 3/barbarian (beast totem/superstitious) 17, focusing on combat maneuvers (mostly bull rushing, but recently took grappling). I dish out so much damage and control the battlefield so well that the enemy has to focus on me. Between making 5 attacks on a charge (currently level 13) and using my knockback to control where my enemies go, I'd call it a decent tanky build.

[Ssalarn]

I think the best tank build using Paizo materials I've seen was a Dirty Fighter half-orc with the Dirty Trick Master feat; he used a reach weapon to threaten a larger area and laid down so many crippling debuffs that it was incredibly difficult for enemies to ignore him, or affect his allies while he was piling the debuffs on.

If 3pp sources are available, the Warder from Dreamscarred Press' Path of War is probably the best class for true MMO style tanking.

Dreamscarred Press' Guru, which is currently in playtest but is pending commercial release sometime in the next few days, has a Philosophy path called the Vayist who can actually range tank remarkably effectively, while also having some options for the skill monkey and/or secondary healer roles.

The Armiger from Rogue Genius Games is also fairly adept at tanking, providing cover to adjacent allies and with several other cool tank abilities.

[Zubrowka74]

I don't know if anyone has run the numbers for a polearm master with feats like Combat Patrol and reach? Like the Dwarven Longhammer (2d6 x3) or the Lucern Hammer (1d12 x2, Brace & Armor sunder)

Yes, combat reflexes makes it pretty much MAD, but heh, we're already talking about the fighter... Nonetheless it gets untypes boni to Brace and AoO that stacks with weapon training, it treats its polearm as having the trip property and gets a tanking feature (+2AC DR 5/- to allies) albeit at a ridiculously high level (19th). Without counting STR or magic, we get +28/+23/+18/+13 to any AoO. Combat Patrol makes the threathened area 10+15 feet, depending how much DEX you can spare, that's several attacks at +28, wasting a full-round.

[Ssalarn]

I don't know if anyone has run the numbers for a polearm master with feats like Combat Patrol and reach? Like the Dwarven Longhammer (2d6 x3) or the Lucern Hammer (1d12 x2, Brace & Armor sunder)

Yes, combat reflexes makes it pretty much MAD, but heh, we're already talking about the fighter... Nonetheless it gets untypes boni to Brace and AoO that stacks with weapon training, it treats its polearm as having the trip property and gets a tanking feature (+2AC DR 5/- to allies) albeit at a ridiculously high level (19th). Without counting STR or magic, we get +28/+23/+18/+13 to any AoO. Combat Patrol makes the threathened area 10+15 feet, depending how much DEX you can spare, that's several attacks at +28, wasting a full-round.

Is that the one that can brace a weapon as an immediate action? I recall being really happy to see that. What if you combo'd it up with a reliable way to boost your size, the Stalwart Defender PrC, and the Lunge feat? You could cover such a big chunk of map that your limited mobility wouldn't be as much of an issue, you'd provide a huge "charge umbrella", and all the stuff that works with Rage cycling should work with your stance.

Alternatively, you get just about everything except the immediate action brace and some feats if you went with a Stonelord; they have better saves and some other options not available to the Fighter, their elemental can be used as a mobile wall or scout, and dwarves are a great tank race all on their own.

[Zubrowka74]

Is that the one that can brace a weapon as an immediate action? I recall being really happy to see that. What if you combo'd it up with a reliable way to boost your size, the Stalwart Defender PrC, and the Lunge feat? You could cover such a big chunk of map that your limited mobility wouldn't be as much of an issue, you'd provide a huge "charge umbrella", and all the stuff that works with Rage cycling should work with your stance.

Alternatively, you get just about everything except the immediate action brace and some feats if you went with a Stonelord; they have better saves and some other options not available to the Fighter, their elemental can be used as a mobile wall or scout, and dwarves are a great tank race all on their own.

So lunge is another +5 on the reach, 30'.

[watchwood]

There's a link to a tanking guide in my sig. It's completely not updated for the expanded classes content, though.

[NightbringerGGZ]

I had a rather fun build that involves a Halfling Cavalier using the Honor Guard, Emissary and Beast Rider archetypes. Use the "Helpful" halfling only trait to boost your Aid Another attempts. Ride a Velociraptor into combat, giving you great movement speed and pounce. Your mount can pick up the Bodyguard archetype, letting it also use defensive feats. I picked Order of the Shield for the bonus Stand Still feat with the effect being applied to any attacks that hit the target.

The build has a few neat tricks, such as the ability to pick up Combat Patrol at level 5 with Combat Reflexes being the only feat you have to pick up. You get a variety of ways to intercept people attacking your allies and the ability to lock them in place. The build actually favors a pretty high Dex score, so you do wind up with a great AC overall. You can still do decent damage despite that thanks to Lance charges.

[Dr.Bakuga]

I think the best tank build using Paizo materials I've seen was a Dirty Fighter half-orc with the Dirty Trick Master feat; he used a reach weapon to threaten a larger area and laid down so many crippling debuffs that it was incredibly difficult for enemies to ignore him, or affect his allies while he was piling the debuffs on.



Dirty Harry the 1/2-orc Fighter(Dirty Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-orc/dirty-fighter-fighter-orc) and Mutation Warrior (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/mutation-warrior) archetypes)

15 Pointbuy: 17 STR, 12 DEX, 14 CON, 13 INT, 10 WIS, 8 CHA

1st:Endurance(Shaman's Apprentice), Power Attack, Combat Reflexes; Mutagen
2nd:Dodge
3rd:Mobility
4th:Spring Attack, Swap Power Attack for Whirlwind Attack; +1 STR
5th:Combat Reflexes, Maneuver Training(+2 Dirty Trick CMB)
6th:Lunge
7th:Combat Expertise, Discovery: Wings
8th:Improved Dirty Trick, +1 STR
9th:Greater Dirty Trick, Speedy Tricks
10th:Weapon Focus(any reach weapon)
11th:Dirty Trick Master, Discovery: Preserve Organs(25% Fortification)
12th:Greater Weapon Focus(any reach weapon)-, +1 STR
13th:-Open-, Double Tricks
14th:-Open-
15th:-Open-, Discovery: Greater Mutagen
16th:-Open-, +1 STR
17th:-Open-, Triple Tricks
18th:-Open-
19th:-Open-, Discovery: Grand Mutagen
20th:-Open-, +1 INT

The feats from 13th level onward are non-essential to the build.

"Speedy Tricks" allows you to perform a dirty trick maneuver in place of an attack. ANY attack. You get this ability at 9th level.

You can perform a lunging whirlwind attack that applies a greater dirty trick at (9 BAB, +7 STR, +4 improved/greater DT, +2 maneuver training, +4 from a +1 dueling (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dueling%20%28PSF G%29) bardiche and the trait Fate's favored (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/faith-traits/fate-s-favored))..+27 CMB before buffs like Haste, Heroism, Inspire Courage etc.
Your strength score might be higher than 24 at this point -buffs like enlarge person or simple magic items to provide an enhancement bonus to STR might be available at level 9.



At level 13, each dirty trick applies TWO conditions, and each requires a seperate action to remove!

At level 17, each dirty trick applies THREE conditions, and each requires a seperate action to remove!

And the beauty of Dirty Trick Master, the final piece in this puzzle:

Once you hit someone with Nausea or Daze, they cannot take a standard action to rid themselves of whatever condition your Greater Dirty Trick inflicted, so they are practically out of the fight.

Original Build (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/p=40707.html)(without Mutation Warrior)


Alternative "tanks":

Paladin: -> Compel Hostility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/compel-hostility) and Lay on Hands to Heal yourself.

Summoners can use Compel Hostility on their eidolon.


An interesting feat, if you want to provoke a single enemy into attacking you and can optimize your Intimidate skill:
Call out (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/call-out-combat).
This FORCES a duel between you and the target; this allows you to take some immediate-action defenses that aren't otherwise available(dueling dodge, dueling parry, dueling counter, dueling resolve).

[Zubrowka74]

There's a link to a tanking guide in my sig. It's completely not updated for the expanded classes content, though.

You might want to update your guide with all the reach / AoO option discussed here. A lot of good stuff for alternate ways of tanking. Combat patrol, Stand Still and such, while not so strong individually could be good for the right kind of build.