Fluff: where'd the magic item shops go?

[Xetheral]

To those who have the DMG:

Is there any guidance on the fluff explanation for the disappearance of magic item shops from the Realms? I'd thought they were doing a magic item reset (suggested by Callin in an earlier thread of mine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?369290-Setting-Continuity-Magic-Items)), but it sounds like one can still find "old" magic items in the AL games, so I guess that's out. I haven't heard anyone talking about loot tables including newly-inert former magic items.

If the number of magic items hasn't been drastically reduced, is there a plausible in-game reason to give to characters for why magic items can no longer be easily bought and sold?

[Giant2005]

I haven't read the DMG, so everything I am about to say could very well be wrong but from the way I understand it, you are applying lore from earlier versions of the game to a version of the game that doesn't support it.
It isn't the same game and it isn't entirely the same setting. The magic items and shops haven't disappeared, because in 5e's setting magic shops have never existed. Magic items have never been plentiful enough to support that kind of industry.

[Shadow]

I haven't read the DMG, so everything I am about to say could very well be wrong but from the way I understand it, you are applying lore from earlier versions of the game to a version of the game that doesn't support it.
It isn't the same game and it isn't entirely the same setting. The magic items and shops haven't disappeared, because in 5e's setting magic shops have never existed. Magic items have never been plentiful enough to support that kind of industry.

This.
5e is a new game located in familiar settings. Magic item shops were a part of another game that was played in the same setting. But they were part of that other game, not part of the setting.

[Xetheral]

I haven't read the DMG, so everything I am about to say could very well be wrong but from the way I understand it, you are applying lore from earlier versions of the game to a version of the game that doesn't support it.
It isn't the same game and it isn't entirely the same setting. The magic items and shops haven't disappeared, because in 5e's setting magic shops have never existed. Magic items have never been plentiful enough to support that kind of industry.


This.
5e is a new game located in familiar settings. Magic item shops were a part of another game that was played in the same setting. But they were part of that other game, not part of the setting.

I have to hope you're both wrong (but I fear you aren't). I'm frustrated by the idea that in order to make my homebrew D&D setting compatible with 5e I have to either throw out all the economic work I've done in the past decade+ or radically houserule the magic item assumptions of 5e. If anyone knows of anything in the DMG that helps, please let me know!

[GiantOctopodes]

I haven't read the DMG, so everything I am about to say could very well be wrong but from the way I understand it, you are applying lore from earlier versions of the game to a version of the game that doesn't support it.
It isn't the same game and it isn't entirely the same setting. The magic items and shops haven't disappeared, because in 5e's setting magic shops have never existed. Magic items have never been plentiful enough to support that kind of industry.

Not to talk about the wrong game in this forum, but I feel it's relevant to the discussion- the mechanics of the game has Never really supported the purchase and sale of magic items. If you consider, creating magic items in 3.P costs XP. An invaluable resource only gained by adventuring. Meaning that every creator of magic items is themselves an adventurer, or overcame some kind of challenge, or did *something* to get that XP. They are then burning a portion of their own personal power and soul to craft an item. And then they are trading that item for gold. Why? What can they get with that gold, that is more valuable than the magic item itself, not to mention the XP that was consumed to get it? Beyond that too, the amount of XP costs mean that someone could not reliably pump out the same kind of magic item. It would be unrealistic for a magic item shop to consistently be restocked with wands of fireball, because how is the person creating them regaining XP fast enough to continue that process?

This is echoed in the lore- in all the Forgotten Realms books, I have never once encountered where a magic item was simply purchased from a shop. Taken off a slain foe? Sure. Crafted for personal use? Absolutely. Given as a reward for great deeds, as a gift in payment for services, or something of that nature? Plenty of times. But never has it been where someone has said "I would like to pay you to make me a magic item", and even if it did occur, it would be on a commissioned basis, not for generic sale. Can you imagine burning all that XP, then just having the item in question sitting on a shelf and hoping you can actually sell it?

The whole thing just never fit with my view of the universe, but that's just me.

In terms of your specific concern, you can easily refluff as needed. Your idea of a cataclysmic event rendering all magic items inert would fit perfectly with the described issue. In addition, it would have far reaching economic implications (always fun), a clear cut reason why more items aren't being made (what if they go inert again?), and because rumors are out there that not all magic items went inert, and some are still good, it introduces a great opportunity to have people pawning off "genuine" magic weapons which are just weapons with Nystul's Magic Aura on them. To me, it seems like you could really use this as an opportunity to enhance the world. Best of luck!

[Eslin]

Not to talk about the wrong game in this forum, but I feel it's relevant to the discussion- the mechanics of the game has Never really supported the purchase and sale of magic items. If you consider, creating magic items in 3.P costs XP. An invaluable resource only gained by adventuring. Meaning that every creator of magic items is themselves an adventurer, or overcame some kind of challenge, or did *something* to get that XP. They are then burning a portion of their own personal power and soul to craft an item. And then they are trading that item for gold. Why? What can they get with that gold, that is more valuable than the magic item itself, not to mention the XP that was consumed to get it? Beyond that too, the amount of XP costs mean that someone could not reliably pump out the same kind of magic item. It would be unrealistic for a magic item shop to consistently be restocked with wands of fireball, because how is the person creating them regaining XP fast enough to continue that process?

This is echoed in the lore- in all the Forgotten Realms books, I have never once encountered where a magic item was simply purchased from a shop. Taken off a slain foe? Sure. Crafted for personal use? Absolutely. Given as a reward for great deeds, as a gift in payment for services, or something of that nature? Plenty of times. But never has it been where someone has said "I would like to pay you to make me a magic item", and even if it did occur, it would be on a commissioned basis, not for generic sale. Can you imagine burning all that XP, then just having the item in question sitting on a shelf and hoping you can actually sell it?

The whole thing just never fit with my view of the universe, but that's just me.

In terms of your specific concern, you can easily refluff as needed. Your idea of a cataclysmic event rendering all magic items inert would fit perfectly with the described issue. In addition, it would have far reaching economic implications (always fun), a clear cut reason why more items aren't being made (what if they go inert again?), and because rumors are out there that not all magic items went inert, and some are still good, it introduces a great opportunity to have people pawning off "genuine" magic weapons which are just weapons with Nystul's Magic Aura on them. To me, it seems like you could really use this as an opportunity to enhance the world. Best of luck!

Experience wise, I assumed the shops were either run by artificers or use a method like distilled joy or liquid pain to harvest crafting experience.

These days, I assume those shops exist anyway, but not as a store - more of a high class auction service.

[JoeJ]

Experience wise, I assumed the shops were either run by artificers or use a method like distilled joy or liquid pain to harvest crafting experience.

These days, I assume those shops exist anyway, but not as a store - more of a high class auction service.

In my games I've always run magic shops as selling potions, scrolls, and spell components. Some of them will also act as brokers for more powerful items; getting paid to bring a buyer and a seller together.

[silveralen]

Experience wise, I assumed the shops were either run by artificers or use a method like distilled joy or liquid pain to harvest crafting experience.

These days, I assume those shops exist anyway, but not as a store - more of a high class auction service.

I mean, those only officially existed in one setting, the one where magic items will likely remain assumed due to the nature of the world. Magic item economy honestly never should have existed in any setting but that one.

However OP, if your custom setting supports it? Keep it. No reason not to.

[SiuiS]

I have to hope you're both wrong (but I fear you aren't). I'm frustrated by the idea that in order to make my homebrew D&D setting compatible with 5e I have to either throw out all the economic work I've done in the past decade+ or radically houserule the magic item assumptions of 5e. If anyone knows of anything in the DMG that helps, please let me know!

5e is designed to be houseruled like this. Go for it.


Experience wise, I assumed the shops were either run by artificers or use a method like distilled joy or liquid pain to harvest crafting experience.

These days, I assume those shops exist anyway, but not as a store - more of a high class auction service.

Distilled joy and liquid pain aren't part of the setting of D&D, they are part of a very specific niche ruleset of D&D. Best not to assume they exist as such.

My own usual method is a far-flung trading service. Adventurers become famous and their gear does too. They make it known to vendors what they're looking for and what they're willing to part with, and the vendors gossip like magpies with each other and eek out business deals. If an item a person wants is on the market, it'll be available in a few weeks (faster if they can magically expedite things), and if not, then someone will let them know when it is.

Starting and solidifying this intraworld service is going to be the point of my next PC actually.

[Mrmox42]

You could rule that most of the magic items actually are not magic at all, and that the magic item salesmen are more like peddlers of the supposedly arcane, who may on occasion own an actual magic thingamabob, but most of the times just have mastercrafted things and right-out fake stuff.

So the shops are still there, selling (mostly) real magic potions and scrolls, and a host of other things that may or (mostly) may not be magic.

Or you could keep your fluff and let the magic emporioums sell all the magic items in the DMG. Why not? Its your campaign, and if that campaign suffers too much from loosing ye olde magick shoppes, then keep them. :smallsmile:

[Xetheral]

In terms of your specific concern, you can easily refluff as needed. Your idea of a cataclysmic event rendering all magic items inert would fit perfectly with the described issue. In addition, it would have far reaching economic implications (always fun), a clear cut reason why more items aren't being made (what if they go inert again?), and because rumors are out there that not all magic items went inert, and some are still good, it introduces a great opportunity to have people pawning off "genuine" magic weapons which are just weapons with Nystul's Magic Aura on them. To me, it seems like you could really use this as an opportunity to enhance the world. Best of luck!

It could work. I once had an epic-level ritual disable divination magic world-wide in order to destabilize a diviner-ruled tyrannical oligarchy, so I guess there is precedent for a ritual world-wide Disjunction to take out the magic item economy that underlies the balance of power in a neighboring Empire.

Still, unless I fast-forward the world timeline it means drastically reducing the value of raiding ancient ruins for the foreseeable future. Adventuring would focus more on the political upheaval, so I have to be certain I'm comfortable running a couple political-based campaigns in a row. This wasn't really the direction I wanted to take the world either.


However OP, if your custom setting supports it? Keep it. No reason not to.


5e is designed to be houseruled like this. Go for it.


Or you could keep your fluff and let the magic emporioums sell all the magic items in the DMG. Why not? Its your campaign, and if that campaign suffers too much from loosing ye olde magick shoppes, then keep them. :smallsmile:

One of the chief difficulties is the pricing system. The one described in the DMG (as described by early owners) is woefully insufficient to support the somewhat-detailed magic-item economy that underpins the political structure in my world. I'm daunted by the work it will take to develop one from scratch, particularly since I can't simply extrapolate from the also-inadequate crafting rules. I'll also have to decide if, as long as I'm tinkering with magic items, if I also want to tinker with the assumptions about how many items the players are likely to have, since as a group my players tend to love magic item shopping.

Perhaps I can come up with a scaling factor from 3.5 prices. Alternatively, perhaps I can wait and see what they do to maintain continuity in the Eberron setting (if they bother), and adapt that solution. Still, I'm not terribly eager to wait and hope it works in my setting too... I did that for the past couple months with the DMG, only to be disappointed.

Thanks everyone for the helpful responses! If anyone else has ideas I'd love to hear them. I'm particularly interested in ideas on how to transition from a high number of items per adventurer to a low number of items per adventurer without needing to change the total number of items in circulation in the setting (and thus not needing to change the number of items available to adventurers to purchase in any one location). I mean, I could simply increase the number of adventurers, but I'm already at the high end of what's plausible.

[Yoroichi]

It feels better for me that magic items are rarer but that does not necessarily exclude magic item shops from the setting.

This could be an opportunity to enrich your setting.

A magic item shop could be run by a warlock who has a pact and is getting all his stuff from the "other side".

A magic item shop could be one that started buying magic items from adventurers because it had a lot of common gold, and it sets its own prices and creates its own market. They could even trade items.

Another idea is that all the temples can sell divine scrolls through their divine power and some magic items that are granted by the deity in order to make some profit and keep the temples going or something -_-

Not having specific item shops, is a gift to the DM to create a gold dump that is WAS needed in 3.x in order to keep the balance in check.

[Gwendol]

Likely, you can apply real world pricing incentives now, rather than the hamfisted 3.5 guidelines. Have the players haggle for price :-) Or barter.

[Xetheral]

Likely, you can apply real world pricing incentives now, rather than the hamfisted 3.5 guidelines. Have the players haggle for price :-) Or barter.

I've already adapted 3.5 pricing to make it seem more organic to the players (although depending on the mood of the group and the pacing of the session, sometimes I skip my added level of detail), but I somehow need a base price to work with.

-----

Also, for reference, there aren't any "ye olde magic shoppes" per se, but my setting requires a robust, fairly-liquid magic item economy to function in its current form. If adventurers assume they can't sell their loot, or if the number of items in circulation falls too far, then some of the narrative justifications for the political structure fall apart. (And sure, I could make a new justification for the same structure, but that would require some sort of cataclysm to provoke the transition unless I wanted to simply retcon the explanation.) Mostly magic items are sold either to a powerful cartel for well-below normal prices, or in a great market that has its own system of gather information and diplomacy checks to find a willing buyer. It's not the shops I'm trying to preserve, but the notion (and system support for the idea) that magic items are fungible commodities.

[Totema]

I have to hope you're both wrong (but I fear you aren't). I'm frustrated by the idea that in order to make my homebrew D&D setting compatible with 5e I have to either throw out all the economic work I've done in the past decade+ or radically houserule the magic item assumptions of 5e. If anyone knows of anything in the DMG that helps, please let me know!

Just an idea: Why not make the catastrophic economic collapse the focal point of your next campaign?

[Xetheral]

Just an idea: Why not make the catastrophic economic collapse the focal point of your next campaign?

I'm thinking about it, but frankly, I don't think I want to. It would make the work put into the politics and economics of the setting in the last 10+ years useful only as background material. If I'm going to sacrifice that effort anyway, I'd rather pick a less-explored part of the setting and build it to be lower-magic with tales of the far-off magical utopia. That way at least I'd have something to fall back on if I get fed up with 5th and decide to return to 3.5.

[DCraw]

I've already adapted 3.5 pricing to make it seem more organic to the players (although depending on the mood of the group and the pacing of the session, sometimes I skip my added level of detail), but I somehow need a base price to work with.

-----

Also, for reference, there aren't any "ye olde magic shoppes" per se, but my setting requires a robust, fairly-liquid magic item economy to function in its current form. If adventurers assume they can't sell their loot, or if the number of items in circulation falls too far, then some of the narrative justifications for the political structure fall apart. (And sure, I could make a new justification for the same structure, but that would require some sort of cataclysm to provoke the transition unless I wanted to simply retcon the explanation.) Mostly magic items are sold either to a powerful cartel for well-below normal prices, or in a great market that has its own system of gather information and diplomacy checks to find a willing buyer. It's not the shops I'm trying to preserve, but the notion (and system support for the idea) that magic items are fungible commodities.

If magic items are a fungible commodity in your campaign setting, then they are - DMG be damned.\

In practical terms, you could keep feeding the PCs the same sale prices as they had in 3.5 without breaking anything too important. As for availability to purchase, you could either homebrew a solution (likely based on a scale factor from 3.5) or you could steer your campaign in such a direction that they were cut off from their usual dealers (although they can still find a buying agent). If they want magic items, let them RP haggling for it with a mysterious street vendor. Heck this could even provide an interesting campaign hook if you're creative enough with it.

[Justin Sane]

One possible alternative is to have expiration dates on magic items. Not all of them, mind you, just the ones that would logically be most commonly used (+1 sword no, magical lamp with Continual Flame yes). This creates a market demand by making sure that, eventually, you'll get return customers.

[Occasional Sage]

Not to talk about the wrong game in this forum, but I feel it's relevant to the discussion- the mechanics of the game has Never really supported the purchase and sale of magic items. If you consider, creating magic items in 3.P costs XP. An invaluable resource only gained by adventuring. Meaning that every creator of magic items is themselves an adventurer, or overcame some kind of challenge, or did *something* to get that XP. They are then burning a portion of their own personal power and soul to craft an item. And then they are trading that item for gold.

Not entirely correct. In 3.0 and 3.5 crafting burned XP, but that cost was removed in Pathfinder.



This is echoed in the lore- in all the Forgotten Realms books, I have never once encountered where a magic item was simply purchased from a shop. Taken off a slain foe? Sure. Crafted for personal use? Absolutely. Given as a reward for great deeds, as a gift in payment for services, or something of that nature? Plenty of times. But never has it been where someone has said "I would like to pay you to make me a magic item", and even if it did occur, it would be on a commissioned basis, not for generic sale. Can you imagine burning all that XP, then just having the item in question sitting on a shelf and hoping you can actually sell it?


For what it's worth, on of Gygax's novels featured a dwarf-run magic item shop in Greyhawk. Can't remember the book title, it's the one featuring Gord facing off against a demon.

[Fwiffo86]

I have to hope you're both wrong (but I fear you aren't). I'm frustrated by the idea that in order to make my homebrew D&D setting compatible with 5e I have to either throw out all the economic work I've done in the past decade+ or radically houserule the magic item assumptions of 5e. If anyone knows of anything in the DMG that helps, please let me know!

A possible solution would be to swap out the Magic Item economy with a "Technology" economy. Something in the realm of functional "magic" items that operate of off advanced technology (think somewhat twiggy steampunk stuff). You get to keep the "magic" items, they still cost alot, but they now come with malfunction numbers or such.

I'm suggesting this, because it worked pretty well for me.

Just a thought to save yourself a decade of economic turmoil.

[Daishain]

Additionally, you should be aware that the DMG fully supports the kind of magic item economy you have in mind. It just isn't the default option anymore and there are going to be some changes to the set up.

The specific inventory of magic item shops are going to be quite different, mostly +1 level enchantments with the occasional rare item. And all of it would be quite well guarded and priced more heavily than the equivalent in previous editions would be. Ultimately, unless looking for something quite simple and generic, obtaining a magic item via a store becomes a bit more like commissioning a job or asking around for a unique collector's curio.

Regarding the XP in crafting, I've always thought of that as a gameist rule to keep people from just taking a few years downtime to crank out everything they could possibly need. It makes no sense for the craftsmen to have to make the same sacrifice. That or XP for NPCs is more like a steadily refilling reservoir, and PCs just get it in bursts due to the unusual challenges they face.

[EccentricCircle]

One interesting thing the DMG does say is that the ability to make magic items used to be much more common. Constructing items requires a formula, and it specifies that many of them are lost or secret. They are not really available to the man on the street but adventurers might find them as part of an adventure or in a treasure hoard. Magic items are literally called out as being antiques from a bygone age, which are now far more rare and valuable than they once were.
We usually think of very long periods of time being required for things to become lost, so you have to search ancient ruins for this sort of thing, but actually so long as something is outside of living memory it can be consigned to the past. Depending on how much time has passed in the forgotten realms the magic shops no longer exist because of some sort of gradual cultural change and are now products of a bygone age, albeit not a very ancient one.

So to spin that into a campaign:

The last of the Old Masters of Artifice lived almost a hundred years ago and they have taken many of their secrets to the grave. For a time the apprentices of the Old Masters aspired to equal or surpass the works of their teachers, but they were doomed to failure. They lacked the Genius of men like Antracorus and Ario Da Calosa. What was more they refused to work together. Each apprentice considered themselves to be the one true heir to their teacher, but each had inherited only a fragment of the Master's knowledge. Had they been prepared to work together things might have worked out differently, but the hubris of artificers is beyond compare.

And so the years rolled by and more and more secrets were lost as their guardians passed away, still struggling to equal their teachers. Wizards sought the techniques their grandfathers had used, while the arcane emporiums of old were replaced with auction houses where the rich and powerful vied to outbid one another for items that were once common place. Maybe one day someone will stumble upon Carasalo's lost folio, and decode the secret spells he wove into the immovable rods, or uncover the faded writings of Alacasta's rings. Until then their secrets lie forgotten, and the items that were crafted in their day, especially the Originals, will continue to fetch high prices for many years to come.

[SiuiS]

One of the chief difficulties is the pricing system. The one described in the DMG (as described by early owners) is woefully insufficient to support the somewhat-detailed magic-item economy that underpins the political structure in my world.

So what? You've already done the footwork. Port your existing 3.5 based system in wholesale. You can do that, it'll be fine. :)

[mephnick]

They really should have created a new setting for 5e, or not chosen a setting at all.

Forgotten Realms makes zero sense.

[Person_Man]

They really should have created a new setting for 5e, or not chosen a setting at all.

Forgotten Realms makes zero sense.

It makes zero narrative sense. But for a couple of decades the Forgotten Realms has been the best seller for D&D novels and campaign setting books. They're trying to create an integrated brand, where the core game is directly aligned with the characters in their most popular novels, which in turn will be aligned with campaign setting expansions, miniatures, toys, board games, video games, maybe a cartoon or another low-budget SyFy movies, etc.

[silveralen]

They really should have created a new setting for 5e, or not chosen a setting at all.

Forgotten Realms makes zero sense.

It makes more sense than greyhawk as the default for 4e. Way more.

[Totema]

They really should have created a new setting for 5e, or not chosen a setting at all.

Forgotten Realms makes zero sense.

Going through each edition's mechanics has made FR a bloated mess. I wish they would have the gumption to standardize it a la Eberron but they never seem to.

[Vogonjeltz]

Experience wise, I assumed the shops were either run by artificers or use a method like distilled joy or liquid pain to harvest crafting experience.

These days, I assume those shops exist anyway, but not as a store - more of a high class auction service.

If I recall correctly, the DMG in 3.5 specified that players wouldn't travel to a shop, per se, they would search a town, run down leads, and the like, and maybe, if they were lucky, find someone whose great grandfather had had a magic sword like the one they were looking for, and then buy that.

So, in the strictest sense, there never were magic item shops. Different size cities were just more or less likely to have the particular item the players were looking for. Anyone who collected them would be like a second hand store, not the actual creator.

[Endarire]

Do you want a setting with magic being commonplace a la The Metaphysical Revolution (http://campbellgrege.com/work-listing/the-metaphysical-revolution-dd-3-5-module/)? You're the GM who's put a lot of work into things. You can do it.

For magic things, why not just use the same prices for things as in 3.5? This also means you'd need to award PCs with gold of similar scales to in 3.5. If there's something that seems off price- or effect-wise, take it up with that player one on one.

Alternatively, if ancient magic item creation secrets are 'lost to the dead,' cast speak with dead on the right corpses and have your answer!

[Xetheral]

Additionally, you should be aware that the DMG fully supports the kind of magic item economy you have in mind. It just isn't the default option anymore and there are going to be some changes to the set up.

Wait, there are rules in the DMG to support this? Or are you just saying they don't actually conflict. The "high magic" starting gear table, for example, doesn't exactly inspire confidence that 3.5-style items (and their ensuant economics) are supported.


The specific inventory of magic item shops are going to be quite different, mostly +1 level enchantments with the occasional rare item.

The items themselves being different isn't a continuity problem for me at all... the game mechanics modeling the capabilities of each item are of course going to change with the introduction of a new system.


Regarding the XP in crafting, I've always thought of that as a gameist rule to keep people from just taking a few years downtime to crank out everything they could possibly need. It makes no sense for the craftsmen to have to make the same sacrifice. That or XP for NPCs is more like a steadily refilling reservoir, and PCs just get it in bursts due to the unusual challenges they face.

(Emphasis added.) That's actually exactly what I do. High-level NPC classes aren't rare in my world at all. Everyone slowly earns XP just by living and working. Adventurers just tend to earn it fast.


In practical terms, you could keep feeding the PCs the same sale prices as they had in 3.5 without breaking anything too important.


So what? You've already done the footwork. Port your existing 3.5 based system in wholesale. You can do that, it'll be fine. :)


For magic things, why not just use the same prices for things as in 3.5? This also means you'd need to award PCs with gold of similar scales to in 3.5. If there's something that seems off price- or effect-wise, take it up with that player one on one.

A wholesale 3.5 port? Hmm. I was originally thinking that would sacrifice a bunch of 5e's math, but on reflection I guess I have been arguing in other threads that the mechanical impact of a +1 bonus hasn't changed much across editions. Assuming I'm right, that makes the prospect a lot less daunting. Attunement would still be an issue, but perhaps I could simply ditch that too. (True, I'd be throwing CR out the window completely, but I tend not to rely on it anyway.) Interesting... thanks! My optimism that there is a palatable solution is beginning to return. :)

[MadBear]

I'm not really seeing the problem. 5th edition moved away from having the ye olde magic shoppe, but that doesn't mean you have too. Yes, there's not as much rules support for what you wanted, as there was in the past, and yes that seems intentional. However, as you already stated, you've done all the work already. A quick look at the new items shows that a +1 is a rare find, and a +3 is practically artifact level. Just merge that with the system you created, and boom.... you're done.

Everything else seems like it's pedantically complaining about the move D&D made with magic in this edition. Personally, I find it way better then what I considered to be a stupid "magic economy" where magic was so common that you needed to find it to keep up in the game.

Or, if you don't like any of the other suggestions, keep with 3.5, since you've already dedicated the man hours into creating an enjoyable world for yourself and players. I know that as much as I loved my Gestalted Crusader/Incarnate Lawful neutral Dwarven cleric, he just doesn't fit in 5th edition. that's not a bad thing. Then again, my L5R characters don't fit in 3.5, nor does a character from fatal fit anywhere, that's not a flaw in the design. You might need to scrap your economy creation for 5th. If you're not willing to due to the work you've invested (which is understandable), that's your choice. Otherwise, the multiple solutions offered are likely the best you're going to see.

[Pex]

They didn't go anywhere. It's game world/DM specific. The DMG uses a simplistic table to offer a value of magic items based on rarity. The default assumption is a lack of Ye Olde Magik Shoppes but maybe you can find a buyer for an item you have during a long time of downtime. The DMG also mentions various gameworlds - Toril, Oerth, Eberron, etc. and different concepts about magic shops where you can readily trade in magic items. The DMG does not specifically forbid such a thing nor give any notion whatsoever it's a bad idea. There is only a different paradigm going back to pre-3E. 3E & 4E assumed magic shops and a DM specifically had to say otherwise if he didn't want such a thing for the campaign. Pre-3E and 5E say there are no magic shops and a DM specifically has to say otherwise if he wants such a thing for the campaign with 5E having more words telling potential DMs such a thing is possible and ok to do.

[Xetheral]

I'm not really seeing the problem. 5th edition moved away from having the ye olde magic shoppe, but that doesn't mean you have too. Yes, there's not as much rules support for what you wanted, as there was in the past, and yes that seems intentional. However, as you already stated, you've done all the work already. A quick look at the new items shows that a +1 is a rare find, and a +3 is practically artifact level. Just merge that with the system you created, and boom.... you're done.

We posted at almost the same time. I do indeed appreciate people pointing out that a wholesale (or simply extensive) port of the 3.5 mechanics is potentially easier than I was thinking. :)


Everything else seems like it's pedantically complaining about the move D&D made with magic in this edition. Personally, I find it way better then what I considered to be a stupid "magic economy" where magic was so common that you needed to find it to keep up in the game.

Frankly, I too find the idea of what they've done with magic in this edition to be quite appealing. I'd be nothing but excited were it not for (what I consider to be) the resulting continuity problems, both in the Forgotten Realms setting and in my custom setting. Hopefully I did an ok job making sure the thread focused on asking for (and responding to) constructive feedback, but you may well be right that there was an element of frustration in my decision to post in the first place.


They didn't go anywhere. It's game world/DM specific. The DMG uses a simplistic table to offer a value of magic items based on rarity. The default assumption is a lack of Ye Olde Magik Shoppes but maybe you can find a buyer for an item you have during a long time of downtime. The DMG also mentions various gameworlds - Toril, Oerth, Eberron, etc. and different concepts about magic shops where you can readily trade in magic items. The DMG does not specifically forbid such a thing nor give any notion whatsoever it's a bad idea. There is only a different paradigm going back to pre-3E. 3E & 4E assumed magic shops and a DM specifically had to say otherwise if he didn't want such a thing for the campaign. Pre-3E and 5E say there are no magic shops and a DM specifically has to say otherwise if he wants such a thing for the campaign with 5E having more words telling potential DMs such a thing is possible and ok to do.

Permission is all well and good (not that it's necessary), but I'd have preferred more mechanical support.

As for differing paradigms in editions, the shift from 2e to 3e's approach to magic items could be handled by simply forbidding their purchase--it's easy to ignore prices. 3e to 4e didn't have any significant magic-item procurement related changes other than residuum and starting item allocations, both of which were easy to change. 4e to 5e runs into the problem of a lack of coherent prices. Fortunately, thanks to posters in this thread, I'm realizing that it may be easier to houserule than I feared. Still, I'd prefer if the coherent prices were there as a more robust optional rule.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

There's always the good old magic magic item shop. Moves itself around mystically, you don't really buy things for money, and the proprietor is more interested in mind****s than profit.


I have to hope you're both wrong (but I fear you aren't). I'm frustrated by the idea that in order to make my homebrew D&D setting compatible with 5e I have to either throw out all the economic work I've done in the past decade+ or radically houserule the magic item assumptions of 5e. If anyone knows of anything in the DMG that helps, please let me know!
I think you can probably keep your setup, but take a hard look at the items in question. If +1 and +2 magic items were common in your 3.5 economy, you can revise that to be +0 items with minor or situational enchantments. Like arrows that reduce cover AC by one rank, or armor that sizes itself to the wearer (+1 dex mod or pure utility). Such items probably shouldn't count as magic for purposes of overcoming resistances or immunities. In such a fashion magic items can remain common while keeping +1 and above magic items rare and powerful.

[PinkysBrain]

Meaning that every creator of magic items is themselves an adventurer, or overcame some kind of challenge, or did *something* to get that XP. They are then burning a portion of their own personal power and soul to craft an item. And then they are trading that item for gold. Why?

Because they grew out of needing it, same as why players want to trade them in. Most items don't come from the crafters though, they come from the looters. The game has had millenia of high magic, lots of adventures have come and gone ... and the magic items stick around.


What can they get with that gold, that is more valuable than the magic item itself

More useful items, whine and lasses, hectopeasants.

[Pex]

Permission is all well and good (not that it's necessary), but I'd have preferred more mechanical support.



Some players/DMs need that permission, for good or ill. Before the DMG came out there were a few people on these forums saying 5E should have no magic items at all. With the DMG out, others complain that particular items are in the DMG and shouldn't exist.

[Endarire]

Xetheral: May we get a copy of your rules you worked on for a decade? I'm curious about this industrialized(?) magic setting, and how you handle magic items and spells.

[Xetheral]

Xetheral: May we get a copy of your rules you worked on for a decade? I'm curious about this industrialized(?) magic setting, and how you handle magic items and spells.

In theory I'm putting it all up on a website for my players to use, and then others who were interested could also take a look. In practice, other than a couple of abortive attempts playing around with wikis, I've never made any progress on that goal.

Similarly, I don't have time to do a full workup for the homebrew section of the forum, but I'm happy to send you some of the documentation I give to my players. PM me and we can discuss what you'd find useful.

[Heartspan]

In my setting, there has only ever been ONE magic shop.but that shop is everywhere,and is also run by a madman who sells magic stuff in return fpr cleaning his basement, of things.....

[Argo]

In my world, there is a storefront in every major city, with an unassuming faded blue door, with an equally unassuming brass plaque that simply reads: "CURIOSITIES".

When you enter it, you find yourself in the same magic shop, run by the same weird old wizard.

Because there is only ONE magic shop. It exists in its own plane, outside of any concept of time that we are familiar with. It has anything and everything anyone could ever want, and if it doesn't have it already, there are craftsmen in the back making it right now, it'll be ready tomorrow; or its own party of hired adventurers are off collecting it now, it should be in next week.

The clientele are a bizarre assortment of wizards and adventurers from every plane of existence and quite possibly time period. Armed guards are posted throughout the store to ensure nothing inappropriate happens. Magic weapons, alchemical items, armor are all kept in protective cases that must be opened by an attendant.

Maybe you catch a glimpse of yourself exiting through the door, from some different time.

The shop sells every sort of magic item you could want, but for anything particularly rare or interesting, it will take quite a while for him to find.

It has access points in every large city across the game world. You open the door in Westville and walk in and you're in the same magic shop you entered through the door in Easttown a hundred days ride away.

Somehow, the door remembers who came from where, so there is no way to use the shop as a shortcut between cities / planes. Whenever you exit, you are deposited back where you left, no exceptions.

Sometimes, the old wizard who runs the place will warn you to hide as soon you exit. Moments after hiding, you'll see yourself stroll up and enter the door...

[MadBear]

In my world, there is a storefront in every major city, with an unassuming faded blue door, with an equally unassuming brass plaque that simply reads: "CURIOSITIES".

When you enter it, you find yourself in the same magic shop, run by the same weird old wizard.

Because there is only ONE magic shop. It exists in its own plane, outside of any concept of time that we are familiar with. It has anything and everything anyone could ever want, and if it doesn't have it already, there are craftsmen in the back making it right now, it'll be ready tomorrow; or its own party of hired adventurers are off collecting it now, it should be in next week.

The clientele are a bizarre assortment of wizards and adventurers from every plane of existence and quite possibly time period. Armed guards are posted throughout the store to ensure nothing inappropriate happens. Magic weapons, alchemical items, armor are all kept in protective cases that must be opened by an attendant.

Maybe you catch a glimpse of yourself exiting through the door, from some different time.

The shop sells every sort of magic item you could want, but for anything particularly rare or interesting, it will take quite a while for him to find.

It has access points in every large city across the game world. You open the door in Westville and walk in and you're in the same magic shop you entered through the door in Easttown a hundred days ride away.

Somehow, the door remembers who came from where, so there is no way to use the shop as a shortcut between cities / planes. Whenever you exit, you are deposited back where you left, no exceptions.

Sometimes, the old wizard who runs the place will warn you to hide as soon you exit. Moments after hiding, you'll see yourself stroll up and enter the door...

While I normally hate the idea of a magic shop, you've just described one that I'd absolutely love to see. Thank you Sir.

[Tzi]

An easy fluff is to handwave that in new campaigns. Set the new campaigns a century or two after your one in a previous edition and simply have the lore about ancient stuff and magic shops be colorful fairy tales that everyone knows are embellished.

In my settings I've always battled to have magic items be rare and not sold in retail stores..... XD

Alchemy shops are the only thing coming close.

Magic scrolls being plausibly purchasable in that you can hire scribes to produce one. Considering the printing presses, electricity and automobiles in my settings, its like the last still employable job for a scribe. XD

[silveralen]

In my world, there is a storefront in every major city, with an unassuming faded blue door, with an equally unassuming brass plaque that simply reads: "CURIOSITIES".

When you enter it, you find yourself in the same magic shop, run by the same weird old wizard.

Because there is only ONE magic shop. It exists in its own plane, outside of any concept of time that we are familiar with. It has anything and everything anyone could ever want, and if it doesn't have it already, there are craftsmen in the back making it right now, it'll be ready tomorrow; or its own party of hired adventurers are off collecting it now, it should be in next week.

The clientele are a bizarre assortment of wizards and adventurers from every plane of existence and quite possibly time period. Armed guards are posted throughout the store to ensure nothing inappropriate happens. Magic weapons, alchemical items, armor are all kept in protective cases that must be opened by an attendant.

Maybe you catch a glimpse of yourself exiting through the door, from some different time.

The shop sells every sort of magic item you could want, but for anything particularly rare or interesting, it will take quite a while for him to find.

It has access points in every large city across the game world. You open the door in Westville and walk in and you're in the same magic shop you entered through the door in Easttown a hundred days ride away.

Somehow, the door remembers who came from where, so there is no way to use the shop as a shortcut between cities / planes. Whenever you exit, you are deposited back where you left, no exceptions.

Sometimes, the old wizard who runs the place will warn you to hide as soon you exit. Moments after hiding, you'll see yourself stroll up and enter the door...

It is killing me how familiar this sounds, yet I can't quite figure out why.

[Eslin]

It is killing me how familiar this sounds, yet I can't quite figure out why.

Sounds pretty similar to the magic shop described in The Light Fantastic, if that's any help.

[Daishain]

snip
Sounds awesome, but you might want to have the store owner have a policy about using his store to pass messages around.

[Rallicus]

It is killing me how familiar this sounds, yet I can't quite figure out why.

As far as D&D is concerned, only thing that comes to mind as being even remotely similar is the World Serpent Inn.

[Beleriphon]

Sounds awesome, but you might want to have the store owner have a policy about using his store to pass messages around.

For or against? Because either way its an adventurers paradise. I was actually thinking that it would make a good meeting place if you can arrange meetings on a certain day.

[Daishain]

For or against? Because either way its an adventurers paradise. I was actually thinking that it would make a good meeting place if you can arrange meetings on a certain day.
For the sake of the owner's sanity, probably against. Possibly with the caveat that messages could be passed on for an exorbitant fee.

Otherwise, it is pretty close to the ultimate communication network, but the people using it will just be getting in the way of real customers.

[JAL_1138]

Perhaps, given the temporal weirdness already involved, only one group of adventurers would ever find themselves inside at once, so there'd be no real way to pass a message along without the owner doing it for you or allowing you to leave a note.

[Xetheral]

When it first occurs to the players to try to send such a message through the store, the owner hands them a message from themselves (written in a mix of blood and ink) warning them that it's a bad idea.

[eastmabl]

It makes more sense than greyhawk as the default for 4e. Way more.

Greyhawk wasn't the default setting for 4E. An abbreviated list of its deities were the default options for 3.0/3.5.

The default setting for 4E was Points of Light. The deities used used were a hodge-podge of deities from Greyhawk and FR, along with some reskinned deities from Earth.

[Argo]

When it first occurs to the players to try to send such a message through the store, the owner hands them a message from themselves (written in a mix of blood and ink) warning them that it's a bad idea.

I like this a lot.

But yeah, due to temporal weirdness, you could never arrange a meeting with anyone. Even if you all enter through doors at the same instant, the group coming from one town might be hundreds of years in the past from the group coming from another town.

You could try passing a message to yourself, but maybe every time you enter the shop it is earlier than the last time.

The wizard who runs the shop MIGHT be willing to pass on a message for a fee, but he might be just as likely to forget all about it, pocket your gold, and insist that you are mistaken. Or maybe this time that you came to his shop is before he agreed?

[druid91]

Magic item crafting is actually EASIER than in the past. All it requires is being a spellcaster and of sufficient level to craft that rank. The sales rules are a bit harder to twist to a profit thing... but eh.

[Scarlet Dragon]

Alright so since it hasn't already been stated yet the spoiler contains the suggested value of magic items based on rarity for 5e. Individual items may be more or less expensive than listed with scrolls and potions being approximately half price. You can easily keep your existing magic economy and just modify the prices. The DMG also suggests that if you have higher magic availability you can totally push items down a rarity tier or up if they are less common. They even talk about Eberron and how magic item shops are common there as well as magic items in general so it is cheaper to buy them.




Rarity
Character Level
Value


Common
1+
50-100


Uncommon
1+
101-500


Rare
5+
501-5000


Very Rare
11+
5,001-50,000gp


Legendary
17+
50,001+gp




Edit: Personally I would use the bottom value of a given tier as the likely price someone will get for selling an item to a shop while the upper value being the price it is sold at. Modified by how well the person is at haggling of course.

[bokodasu]

Because there is only ONE magic shop. It exists in its own plane, outside of any concept of time that we are familiar with. It has anything and everything anyone could ever want, and if it doesn't have it already, there are craftsmen in the back making it right now, it'll be ready tomorrow; or its own party of hired adventurers are off collecting it now, it should be in next week.

I ran a campaign set there once! The players were the adventurers who (for one reason or another) procured items for the shop - one week they might be hunting dinosaur eggs in some prehistoric swamp, the next week finding dilithium crystals and dodging laser blasts. It was super fun and incredibly silly, but sadly died an early death due to scheduling conflicts.