Pointless musing: The warrior of 20

[Jowgen]

Throwing feasibility aside, lets imagine a character with exactly a +20 modifier in every category.

He gets +20 to hit, +20 to damage, +20 saves, +20 skills, +20 hp/level, +20 Initiative... basically, imagine a character with no BAB/base saves/feats/armor/skill points but simply a flat +20 modifier on all his ability scores, which he can always apply (e.g. no denied dex, use skills untrained, etc.).

Now that you're imagining this weird thing, here's my question:

In a campaign from level 1 to 20, how far could this character go? At what point would the 20 no longer be enough?


Disclaimer: there is no point to this exercise.

[Magma Armor0]

Is his HP 20 as well? That might not work out so well for him/her. That is, are they actually taking levels in classes? Or just running with the 20s?

[The Viscount]

Assuming you somehow level up and gain more HD, very very early. Lack of feats will really bring the pain, because it means all you can really do is attack. Without points for skilltricks or maneuvers you can't even easily apply Iajutsu focus. Lack of iteratives from no BAB means you're basically just charging every round. Also with no armor there's little to stop normal monsters from ripping you apart at low levels.

[Red Fel]

Assuming you somehow level up and gain more HD, very very early. Lack of feats will really bring the pain, because it means all you can really do is attack. Without points for skilltricks or maneuvers you can't even easily apply Iajutsu focus. Lack of iteratives from no BAB means you're basically just charging every round. Also with no armor there's little to stop normal monsters from ripping you apart at low levels.

So much this.

Mind you, in a non-combat adventure, he'd last a good long while. Being able to easily tackle DC 20 challenges on skill checks is a boon. But when it comes down to combat, he has painfully little utility. No iteratives, as pointed out. No spells or abilities, at least from what you've said. No feats, which hurts him more. All he can do is hit one enemy per round, and that only once. His AC doesn't scale well either, which hurts too (although his +20 to ability scores keeps him afloat a fair while early on).

He may be able to withstand some early hits, and his saves may be decent, but he won't be a sufficient threat to actually do anything.

[mashlagoo1982]

Throwing feasibility aside, lets imagine a character with exactly a +20 modifier in every category.

He gets +20 to hit, +20 to damage, +20 saves, +20 skills, +20 hp/level, +20 Initiative... basically, imagine a character with no BAB/base saves/feats/armor/skill points but simply a flat +20 modifier on all his ability scores, which he can always apply (e.g. no denied dex, use skills untrained, etc.).

Now that you're imagining this weird thing, here's my question:

In a campaign from level 1 to 20, how far could this character go? At what point would the 20 no longer be enough?


Disclaimer: there is no point to this exercise.

Does this character gain anything besides hp upon leveling up?

Also, is this character prohibited from using weapons and armor... or is it simply lack of proficiency?

[Jowgen]

HP would be 20 per level on the dot, as he'd still be levelling up, even though class benefits (including dice to roll for HP) would be simply non-existent.

I don't think AC would be a problem early on, as he can always apply his +20 Dex to AC; so it's really when his flat 30 AC becomes obsolete in the face of things that hit too hard/don't care about AC.

No re-iteratives, feats and no spell-casting of any variety do hurt. Although technically, he could get a second attack at least from an off-hand weapon.

Either way his offensive power would just be laughable at later levels, although no one's considered his survivability yet. His 20/level HP and +20 flat save bonuses do strike me as something that would keep him alive at least a good number of levels past the point where his damage output becomes inconsequential.

What I'm curious about is at what level these "no-longer-enough"s come into play.


Does this character gain anything besides hp upon leveling up?

Not really. I suppose he would count as having HD equal to his levels. I'm not sure whether it would be in the interest of this pointless exercise to give him WBL, as that would make this more of a "what can you do with just items" kind of thread. If WBL was included as a Level-dependent benefit, the rule would be that nothing he buys is capable of changing his +20 modifiers. He'd still have +20 to-hit/damage, same hp, same saves and same skill-modifiers regardless of what items he has

EDIT: Proficiency is a non-factor as he simple has +20 to hit and to AC. So I suppose that gives him an edge in terms of using weapons but makes armor mostly pointless.

[Aegis013]

What I'm curious about is at what level these "no-longer-enough"s come into play.

That depends on the optimization level of the game. I'm going to use the D&D published modules I have to say they would generally not be enough to successfully complete or meaningfully assist a group for a "good" completion of adventures after around level 10, but from levels 1 to 7 or 8 or so, he'd range from super powerful to reasonably helpful.

I say this, because I occasionally run modules for to see if character builds can solo them (usually it's surprisingly easy with a reasonably optimized T2 or better), and modules at level 11+ are where you start running into things like "Protect the village from this monster... he has at-will force cage, he force cages you and then crushes the village. You still eventually kill the monster, sure, but you didn't protect the village"

Other things you encounter are dragons and spellcasters, which this character will likely struggle to fight. Especially if he his speed is 20 too.


In a game at the optimization level I'm used to DMing for IRL? He'd fall behind more rapidly. Probably becoming obsolete in combat by level 8. He'd still do reasonably well in skill-monkey and role-play situations (+10 from stat[probably higher if he uses 20 point buy with +20 to stats], +20 to skill makes for some very nice skill bonuses - add in Guidance of the Avatar and Divine Insight and you're rocking the skill-monkey world). Class features are really important.

By late levels, he'd fall behind even there, probably around 13-14, he'd be entirely obsolete mechanically.

Just my opinion, but there you go.

[The Viscount]

While a normal AC of 30 is indeed difficult, being rendered flatfooted renders that back down to 20. As for TWF, would penalties from it be ignored to keep the +20? If so it is an advantage, but raises the monk problem. As for survivability, consider how many monsters have many HD (and thus lots of hp) for their CR. These monsters are still sometimes taken down by solo PCs. As for saves, there are always those effects without them.

[Magma Armor0]

Okay, so we get +20hp per level and an AC of 30. Are we part of a party? Because this acctually sounds like a decent Fighter. Trip checks should be cake with a +20 STR.

Also is that a 20 base save plus the ability mods? A total 40 in all saves? We are not failing saves for a while. Probably ever, against CR appropriate encounters.

[Jack_Simth]

If WBL was included as a Level-dependent benefit, the rule would be that nothing he buys is capable of changing his +20 modifiers. He'd still have +20 to-hit/damage, same hp, same saves and same skill-modifiers regardless of what items he has

EDIT: Proficiency is a non-factor as he simple has +20 to hit and to AC. So I suppose that gives him an edge in terms of using weapons but makes armor mostly pointless.

Hmm.

Well, his HP means he can soak hits pretty much until the rest of the party wipes the floor with the encounter. As to making people target him?

At low levels, his attack modifier, AC, and HP means that he makes a good Fighter. His skill modifier means he makes a very good skill monkey (other than the lack of trapfinding).

At medium levels, his attack bonus hasn't improved, and a fighter surpasses him... although he's still quite tank-like (mostly due to HP), and still a reasonable skillmonkey (other than the lack of trapfinding).

At high levels? If you don't include wealth, he's quite durable but can't contribute. However, if you DO include wealth: His +20 UMD means he can use any wand on a nat-1 (Spell trigger, flat DC 20). Staves, too (they're spell trigger items, this is mentioned as part of the Use Magic Device description). Considering he's rocking a +20 ability modifier, and a magic staff uses your modifier if it's higher than the minimum for the spell, few things will save vs. one of those. So a Staff of Transmutation, in his hands, means a DC 35 Fort save or Lose 25 times vs. anything without SR. A Staff of Conjouration in his hands is a Fort save DC 33 or suck 50 times. The Staff of Enchantment's Mass Suggestion is a DC 36 Will save or Lose 16 times (or use the Suggestion for a DC 33 Will save or lose 50 times, perhaps a DC 32 Will save or lose 50 times from Hideous Laughter, instead). A Staff of Illusion's Rainbow Pattern, a Staff of Necromancy's Ghoul Touch (or Halt Undead), a Staff of Power's Hold Monster... and that's just Core. A basic Primary Caster, at 20th, for a 9th level spell is likely to have a save DC in the neighborhood of 32 (18 rolled casting stat, +2 Racial, +5 Level, +5 Inherent, +6 Item=36, a +13 modifier; 9th level spell= DC 32 [+ feats, less common items, ageing effects, etcetera, but I'm ignoring those here])... which matches what he's getting out of Hideous Laughter from a staff of Enchantment. That's using his modifiers - it's not like he's leveraging a Lawful Evil Candle of Invocation for neigh-limitless Wishes or anything cheesy here. This is not something a normal Rogue could do with an investment in Use Magic Device.

[Jowgen]

That depends on the optimization level of the game. I'm going to use the D&D published modules I have to say they would generally not be enough to successfully complete or meaningfully assist a group for a "good" completion of adventures after around level 10, but from levels 1 to 7 or 8 or so, he'd range from super powerful to reasonably helpful.

I say this, because I occasionally run modules for to see if character builds can solo them (usually it's surprisingly easy with a reasonably optimized T2 or better), and modules at level 11+ are where you start running into things like "Protect the village from this monster... he has at-will force cage, he force cages you and then crushes the village. You still eventually kill the monster, sure, but you didn't protect the village"

Other things you encounter are dragons and spellcasters, which this character will likely struggle to fight. Especially if he his speed is 20 too.


In a game at the optimization level I'm used to DMing for IRL? He'd fall behind more rapidly. Probably becoming obsolete in combat by level 8. He'd still do reasonably well in skill-monkey and role-play situations (+10 from stat[probably higher if he uses 20 point buy with +20 to stats], +20 to skill makes for some very nice skill bonuses - add in Guidance of the Avatar and Divine Insight and you're rocking the skill-monkey world). Class features are really important.

By late levels, he'd fall behind even there, probably around 13-14, he'd be entirely obsolete mechanically.

Just my opinion, but there you go.

Seems like a very reasonable assessment, although Guidance of the avatar wouldn't work as his modifier is always exactly 20. Hitting DC 30 skill checks by taking 10 is still bound to be enough for most situations where a skill check can help, I think.


While a normal AC of 30 is indeed difficult, being rendered flatfooted renders that back down to 20.

As mentioned in the op, the Warrior of 20 always gets to apply his un-changeable modifier.


Okay, so we get +20hp per level and an AC of 30. Are we part of a party? Because this acctually sounds like a decent Fighter. Trip checks should be cake with a +20 STR.

Also is that a 20 base save plus the ability mods? A total 40 in all saves? We are not failing saves for a while. Probably ever, against CR appropriate encounters.

Trips are a good point. The saves are exactly 20, purely by virtue of his relevant ability scores having +20 modifiers; so he would eventually start failing things with some frequency, not sure when though.

Hmm.

Well, his HP means he can soak hits pretty much until the rest of the party wipes the floor with the encounter. As to making people target him?

At low levels, his attack modifier, AC, and HP means that he makes a good Fighter. His skill modifier means he makes a very good skill monkey (other than the lack of trapfinding).

At medium levels, his attack bonus hasn't improved, and a fighter surpasses him... although he's still quite tank-like (mostly due to HP), and still a reasonable skillmonkey (other than the lack of trapfinding).


At high levels? If you don't include wealth, he's quite durable but can't contribute. However, if you DO include wealth: His +20 UMD means he can use any wand on a nat-1 (Spell trigger, flat DC 20). Staves, too (they're spell trigger items, this is mentioned as part of the Use Magic Device description). Considering he's rocking a +20 ability modifier, and a magic staff uses your modifier if it's higher than the minimum for the spell, few things will save vs. one of those. So a Staff of Transmutation, in his hands, means a DC 35 Fort save or Lose 25 times vs. anything without SR. A Staff of Conjouration in his hands is a Fort save DC 33 or suck 50 times. The Staff of Enchantment's Mass Suggestion is a DC 36 Will save or Lose 16 times (or use the Suggestion for a DC 33 Will save or lose 50 times, perhaps a DC 32 Will save or lose 50 times from Hideous Laughter, instead). A Staff of Illusion's Rainbow Pattern, a Staff of Necromancy's Ghoul Touch (or Halt Undead), a Staff of Power's Hold Monster... and that's just Core. A basic Primary Caster, at 20th, for a 9th level spell is likely to have a save DC in the neighborhood of 32 (18 rolled casting stat, +2 Racial, +5 Level, +5 Inherent, +6 Item=36, a +13 modifier; 9th level spell= DC 32 [+ feats, less common items, ageing effects, etcetera, but I'm ignoring those here])... which matches what he's getting out of Hideous Laughter from a staff of Enchantment. That's using his modifiers - it's not like he's leveraging a Lawful Evil Candle of Invocation for neigh-limitless Wishes or anything cheesy here. This is not something a normal Rogue could do with an investment in Use Magic Device.

UMD, the ultimate skill, able to turn an ineffectual bag of HP into a Frighteningly powerful caster if he's willing to spend the coin. :smallbiggrin:

[Thrice Dead Cat]

My gut reaction is he stops being a force of nature sans UMD at level 10 at the latest. He'll probably still pass an equal level spellcaster's 4th or 5th level spells from whatever school they have greater spell focus in about 75% of the time, however.

That could go down to as low as 65% against either older spellcasters or races with a extra bonuses to certain schools, like gnomes.

That being said, 6th level spells are possible by 9th level with some cheesy work, but the warrior of 20 still has at least a 50-50 shot against save-based spells here. Things like ego whip and others that don't care if the save succeeds could still ruin his day, so long as they aren't penalties, however.

Edit: Due to how mental pinnacle gives you power points and a manifestor level, if you use circle magic and similar shenanigans a wizard who casts that spell when he has an effective caster level of 60 could one shot him in one round with celerity. Also, whenever greater arcane fusion comes online is the stopping point, even if that does enter TO territory.

[Aegis013]

Seems like a very reasonable assessment, although Guidance of the avatar wouldn't work as his modifier is always exactly 20. Hitting DC 30 skill checks by taking 10 is still bound to be enough for most situations where a skill check can help, I think.

Taking that into account, then he'd still be a decent skill-monkey in low-op (module) setting, but he'd fall off the radar quite a bit earlier than 13-14th level since a level 8-9 character can pull those numbers easily using magic, and can pull double that not quite as easily using magic. So I'd say at that point the Warrior of 20 will become entirely obsolete roughly around 8 in an upper-mid-op scenario. He of course won't be very helpful at all in a high-op scenario; his skills will be obviated by a Cleric at level 3, his combat prowess by a charger at level 6, though I think level 8 is when the class features tend to come online really well (4th level spells for Sorcerer progression casters) and suddenly he's just not helpful anymore, except maybe as a much tankier trap activator instead of using animals out of bags of tricks or similar.

[ericgrau]

To confuse matters further, he also gets a +20 to his UMD checks which is enough to use all wands and staffs forever. Plus low level scrolls. He is never truly out of the game. He only reaches a point where he's entirely reliant on items which aren't as strong as actual casting. He starts as a great fighter & skillmonkey, then becomes a great gish, then ends as a mediocre caster.

For a while he's even a better caster than a full caster, because his staff save DCs are through the roof. Mult-target SoL's like glitterdust, slow, and so on become scary in his hands, as they change from "SoL", to" just L" 95% of the time. That alone brings him to level 10-15 at least. Gishness probably a little bit further than that. I think he'd be overpowered from levels 1-10, then playable if not good from 11-20, while epic would get iffy. Of course high optimization tricks on those with class levels can drop all of those numbers a bit.

You might think he'd run out of charges but typically you only need 12 uses of a staff per "level up" (level up for everyone else) and after 2-4 levels you can afford a new staff. If he stabs foes from time to time it could last longer than that. Likewise when his huge save DC spell practically ends an encounter in one round. Or if he gets loot faster from taking on higher CR foes.

Take out WBL and it's a matter of how long stabbing stuff and DC ~30 skill checks work. And how generous his party is with utility buffs like fly to extend the usefulness of stabbing stuff.

[Coidzor]

If he can ignore the -10 for rushing Diplomacy then he'll be a fair Diplomancer, not particularly good and not really great, but fair, though without the ability to make people fanatic(he'd need at least a +30 modifier and a roll of 20 to do that, after he got them up to Helpful, first). If his result is always 20 then it'd take him several turns but he'd be able to stop fights and get opponents on his side eventually.

If he's limited to one skill check of each, then I suppose he'd have to exploit Perform as Diplomacy in order to do a one-two combo to get enemies to become indifferent towards him and everyone who isn't overtly hostile to him to become his friend if not ally.

He'd be able to identify a lot of low and some mid-level foes, and he'd be able to hit enemies consistently unti about the middle of mid-levels, I think.

As was pointed out, his UMD checks will be pretty good so he'd make an excellent weapons platform chassis for a crafting character for novaing, since his saves are going to be fair and he'll have the HP to survive a good bit of damage.

He can freely wield a spiked chain for tripping from level 1 since his "always a +20 modifier" would cancel out any nonproficiency penalties. And he can mess around with other kooky, niche exotic weapons that no one would want to spend a profiency on.


At medium levels, his attack bonus hasn't improved, and a fighter surpasses him... although he's still quite tank-like (mostly due to HP), and still a reasonable skillmonkey (other than the lack of trapfinding).

I think the provision that allows him to use his skills may obviate the disadvantages of not having trapfinding. I'm not sure if there's any other areas where the rule really lets him do anything that'd otherwise be impossible with only a skill check. Maybe Craft(Alchemy) without being a spellcaster.


While a normal AC of 30 is indeed difficult, being rendered flatfooted renders that back down to 20. As for TWF, would penalties from it be ignored to keep the +20? If so it is an advantage, but raises the monk problem.

How do you figure? :smallconfused: Being flat-footed doesn't cause you to lose the base 10 from your Armor Class that every creature starts with and then modifies.

TWF means he has one attack with his primary weapon that has a +20 to hit and x1dy1+20 to damage and a secondary weapon that has +20 to hit and x2dy2+20 to damage. So unless he's going with a reach weapon, he's going to want to have an offhand weapon since having a shield does nothing for his AC. Two-handing would be nice with a +20 Strength modifier, but the always 20 rule overwrites that so he'd gain no benefit from two-handing a single weapon as far as I can tell.

[mashlagoo1982]

To confuse matters further, he also gets a +20 to his UMD checks which is enough to use all wands and staffs forever. Plus low level scrolls. He is never truly out of the game. He only reaches a point where he's entirely reliant on items which aren't as strong as actual casting. He starts as a great fighter & skillmonkey, then becomes a great gish, then ends as a mediocre caster.

For a while he's even a better caster than a full caster, because his staff save DCs are through the roof. Mult-target SoL's like glitterdust, slow, and so on become scary in his hands, as they change from "SoL", to" just L" 95% of the time. That alone brings him to level 10-15 at least. Gishness probably a little bit further than that. I think he'd be overpowered from levels 1-10, then playable if not good from 11-20, while epic would get iffy. Of course high optimization tricks on those with class levels can drop all of those numbers a bit.

You might think he'd run out of charges but typically you only need 12 uses of a staff per "level up" (level up for everyone else) and after 2-4 levels you can afford a new staff. If he stabs foes from time to time it could last longer than that. Likewise when his huge save DC spell practically ends an encounter in one round. Or if he gets loot faster from taking on higher CR foes.

Take out WBL and it's a matter of how long stabbing stuff and DC ~30 skill checks work. And how generous his party is with utility buffs like fly to extend the usefulness of stabbing stuff.

This is exactly what I was thinking.

If the character is starting at 1st level and receives WBL, buy the cheapest weapon necessary to keep relevant until the +20 to attack (remember to take into account attack penalty) becomes useless. They will have the HP and AC at lower levels to stay alive. Once AC becomes less useful, they should have enough HP to remain up and swinging.

Save as much wealth as possible, and once attacking with weapons becomes less useful, spend everything on magic items.

Focus on UMD to remain relevant from that point on.

By appearing to be a caster, the character would hopefully be able to draw fire from opponents and soak damage to protect the more squishy targets.
Maybe get a mount (+20 Handle Animal).

Is this character basically a tanky MacGyver?