Stalwart Battle Sorcerer - worth it?

[LentilNinja]

I've been wanting to make a Sorcerer (or a CHA caster who gets Summon Monster IV) whos not bad in melee (EDIT: and has some blasty options. I like the sound of a Reserve feat). I was raking through things and found this in "The Gish Handbook":



Gish-in-a-can Options

Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 20 (SRD, Complete Mage): Apply Battle Sorcerer first, then apply Stalwart Sorcerer. Here's the trick: Battle Sorcerers only have one spell known of their highest level at all times. Stalwart Sorcerers lose a spell known of their highest level only, but it's to a minimum of one. Therefore, you can combine the ACFs for no further penalty to spell progression. The result is that you still have the spell quantity problem of a Battle Sorcerer, but in exchange, you get 3/4 BAB, proficiency with two martial weapons, Weapon Focus with one of them, Armored Casting in light armor, and a d8+2 hit die. That's basically a d12. The result is a somewhat limited caster that isn't terrible in melee. Good enough for me.


While I think the trade sounds good, I've seen plenty of people saying Battle/Stalwart isn't worth it. However, I've not been sure if they mean the two together or separately.
So, whats the verdict? I'm not looking for a powerful character, just one who can cast spells and still do work in melee too. I've looked into "Sorcadin" (I don't like it personally) and it lead me to what I think should be called "Sorcader" which goes into JPM. I'm not sure which I'd be better off with, since JPM isn't allowed for Evil characters.

[Xerlith]

Well, a Bard20 outcasts and outfights this, so there you have it.

[Extra Anchovies]

SBS is good if you don't want to do much in the way of multiclassing, and is an easy way to make sure you get ninths. It's enough to hold up in actual gameplay. Otherwise, [caster] 4/ 2/JPM 1/Abjurant Champion 4/JPM +9 is pretty solid. 16/20 casting, 18 BAB.


Well, a Bard20 outcasts and outfights this, so there you have it.

Bard 20 does not outcast someone with ninth-level Sor/Wiz spells. [I]Shapechange > almost anything a 20th-level bard can do with their standard action.

At least, that's what I think. If you want to try to convince me otherwise regarding the "superiority" of Bard 20, please explain your reasoning.

[LentilNinja]

Well, a Bard20 outcasts and outfights this, so there you have it.

Apart from wanting a few blasting options (which I didn't initially specify but I don't feel they're too important), I'm surprised at how right that statement is.

[heavyfuel]

While this combo doesn't really work by RAW (Stalwart can't be applied to Battle Sorcerer because it's a different class than the Sorcerer), even if your DM allows for it, it's a poor choice.

You lose a great amount of spells known and per day for some HP and 5 BAB... Wearing armor is pretty useless once you get Extended Mage Armor.

A better choice for Gishing with Sorcerer is to go Sorc 6 / Swiftblade X/ Abjurant Champion 5

You get better BAB, better survivability despite HP (because Swiftblade's miss chance and Abju Champ's AC), cool features. You also get more spells, although it takes a bit longer to get them.

[Xuldarinar]

Ultimately, is it what you want? Do you feel the trade is worth it?



I know it isn't pure Cha, and I cannot believe I am going to suggest this one, but if you want full spontaneous casting with access to summon monster spells and some capability with a blade, why not favored soul? They get weapon specialization as well as focus, all good saves, no loss in casting for their attributes, and the cleric selection of spells is fine for someone who wants to summon things. Unless you specifically want arcane, or mind having a wisdom score above 10, I personally think it would work. All you lose out on is you draw from a different selection than the sorcerer and you don't get as much health. Armor wise, Favored Souls are proficient with medium and have no inherent problem with heavy armor.

[LentilNinja]

this combo doesn't really work by RAW (Stalwart can't be applied to Battle Sorcerer because it's a different class than the Sorcerer)

It doesn't? Ah, thats a shame. I was unaware of that, and I like to keep my group strict by RAW standards.


I know it isn't pure Cha, and I cannot believe I am going to suggest this one, but if you want full spontaneous casting with access to summon monster spells and some capability with a blade, why not favored soul?

..I-I.. wha..?


They get weapon specialization as well as focus, all good saves, no loss in casting for their attributes, and the cleric selection of spells is fine for someone who wants to summon things. Unless you specifically want arcane, or mind having a wisdom score above 10, I personally think it would work. All you lose out on is you draw from a different selection than the sorcerer and you don't get as much health. Armor wise, Favored Souls are proficient with medium and have no inherent problem with heavy armor.

Joking aside, you actually make a good point there. As I mentioned in a previous comment though (which I'll just add to the start), I did want some blasty options. Then again, Favored Souls would get Inflict spells which isn't elemental damage. Kinda like some of those reserved feats, but I'd have to check the spell list again.
I can't believe I'M saying this, but I'll.. consider it. (would rather play bard tbh)

[Extra Anchovies]

You lose a great amount of spells known and per day for some HP and 5 BAB... Wearing armor is pretty useless once you get Extended Mage Armor.

Excuse me? I'd prefer my +1 Soulfire Proof Against Transmutation mithral Full Plate (with, of course, Magic Vestment applied) to your Greater Mage Armor. Not only is the plate strictly better (+13 AC vs at most +11 from AbjChamp), but it gives me immunity to pretty much every insta-kill out there (negative energy, energy drain, death effects, polymorph/other form-altering effects, and death spells). Mage Armor can't give armor abilities, can't even approach the AC boost of actual armor without Abjurant Champion levels, and doesn't function at all in an AMF (as opposed to real armor, which very much does). All it costs me is two feats (Medium Armor Proficiency and Battle Caster), but since AbjChamp costs Combat Casting (which, if you know how to cast properly, is kind of just a feat tax), it's only a one-feat disadvantage.

You do, however, have a good point about swiftblade. Vanilla sorcerer 5 can't meet its prereqs by 6 (BAB +4), but Battle Sorcerer 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 is a very solid setup and my favorite for those who don't like being encumbered by armor. BAB +19 and 17/20 casting.

[heavyfuel]

It doesn't? Ah, thats a shame. I was unaware of that, and I like to keep my group strict by RAW standards.


Yes, unfortunately (or not), Variant classes apply only to classes of the same name.


Excuse me? I'd prefer my +1 Soulfire Proof Against Transmutation mithral Full Plate (with, of course, Magic Vestment applied) to your Greater Mage Armor. Not only is the plate strictly better (+13 AC vs at most +11 from AbjChamp), but it gives me immunity to pretty much every insta-kill out there (negative energy, energy drain, death effects, polymorph/other form-altering effects, and death spells). Mage Armor can't give armor abilities, can't even approach the AC boost of actual armor without Abjurant Champion levels, and doesn't function at all in an AMF (as opposed to real armor, which very much does). All it costs me is two feats (Medium Armor Proficiency and Battle Caster), but since AbjChamp costs Combat Casting (which, if you know how to cast properly, is kind of just a feat tax), it's only a one-feat disadvantage.

You can get all that with a Mithral Githcraft Chainchirt with Tristledown Padding. The 4 extra AC you get from the Full plate become less usefull when you get access to Luminous Armor (remember that -4 to melee attacks) and useless with Greater Luminous Armor. Even with a Wand to restore the Str damage, it's cheaper because Mithral light armor costs 8k GP less than mithral heavy armor. By the time you reach lv20 (so your Magic Vestment gives +5), AC doesn't matter anyway

[Rebel7284]

While this combo doesn't really work by RAW (Stalwart can't be applied to Battle Sorcerer because it's a different class than the Sorcerer), even if your DM allows for it, it's a poor choice.

You lose a great amount of spells known and per day for some HP and 5 BAB... Wearing armor is pretty useless once you get Extended Mage Armor.

A better choice for Gishing with Sorcerer is to go Sorc 6 / Swiftblade X/ Abjurant Champion 5

You get better BAB, better survivability despite HP (because Swiftblade's miss chance and Abju Champ's AC), cool features. You also get more spells, although it takes a bit longer to get them.

Battle Sorcerer is listed under the heading of Sorcerer Variant. I don't think treating it as a different class is warranted. Would you also rule that Cloistered Clerics do not count as clerics and thus can't get the benefit of any domain that does X for each cleric level?

An even better example is MONK VARIANT: FIGHTING STYLES
Clearly, fighting styles is not a new class name! It's just a variant of the monk!

Same way SORCERER VARIANT: BATTLE SORCERER is not actually creating a new class named Battle Sorcerer.

I think variants are exactly that. A small modification to the base class due to specialization of the individual.

Overall, I think the Stallwart+Battle Sorcerer is fairly reasonable for a gish. You get your spells slightly earlier than most gish builds even if you ultimately get less of them. Losing on class features hurts though.

[heavyfuel]

Battle Sorcerer is listed under the heading of Sorcerer Variant. I don't think treating it as a different class is warranted. Would you also rule that Cloistered Clerics do not count as clerics and thus can't get the benefit of any domain that does X for each cleric level?

An even better example is MONK VARIANT: FIGHTING STYLES
Clearly, fighting styles is not a new class name! It's just a variant of the monk!

Same way SORCERER VARIANT: BATTLE SORCERER is not actually creating a new class named Battle Sorcerer.

I think variants are exactly that. A small modification to the base class due to specialization of the individual.

Overall, I think the Stallwart+Battle Sorcerer is fairly reasonable for a gish. You get your spells slightly earlier than most gish builds even if you ultimately get less of them. Losing on class features hurts though.

How I would rule doesn't really matter, what matters when giving advice about the RAW is how the RAW works, which is precise language.

If you really want to know my opinion, I rule these things on a case by case basis. S+B Sorcerer I say it's fine, simply because it's far weaker than the Sorcerer, same thing for the Monk because they need all the help they can get. Clerics, however, are already incredibly versatile, and the major weakness of the Cloistered Version (poor BAB) is easily fixed with Divine Power, they also get lots of skills points and an awesome Domain for free, so I'd rule that most things that requires "Cleric" don't work for "Cloistered Clerics", although I might allow some things. Like I said, case by case basis.

[Rebel7284]

How I would rule doesn't really matter, what matters when giving advice about the RAW is how the RAW works, which is precise language.

If you really want to know my opinion, I rule these things on a case by case basis. S+B Sorcerer I say it's fine, simply because it's far weaker than the Sorcerer, same thing for the Monk because they need all the help they can get. Clerics, however, are already incredibly versatile, and the major weakness of the Cloistered Version (poor BAB) is easily fixed with Divine Power, they also get lots of skills points and an awesome Domain for free, so I'd rule that most things that requires "Cleric" don't work for "Cloistered Clerics", although I might allow some things. Like I said, case by case basis.

If you are going by RAW, can you please tell me what rules passage makes you think that a variant class counts as a different class?

[Kraken]

All it costs me is two feats (Medium Armor Proficiency and Battle Caster)

I'm not so sure only medium proficiency is required. Mithril full plate isn't medium armor, it's treated as medium for movement purposes and "other limitations." The language is vague enough that you've got an argument, but I think you need heavy armor proficiency to wear it without penalty.


Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal that is lighter than iron but just as hard. When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonus is increased by 2, and armor check penalties are lessened by 3 (to a minimum of 0).

An item made from mithral weighs half as much as the same item made from other metals. In the case of weapons, this lighter weight does not change a weapon’s size category or the ease with which it can be wielded (whether it is light, one-handed, or two-handed). Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral. (A longsword can be a mithral weapon, while a scythe cannot be.)

Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.

Mithral has 30 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 15.

[LentilNinja]

Checked with DM and he allows SB Sorcerer. I'd still like to weigh it up compared to other options, though.

[heavyfuel]

If you are going by RAW, can you please tell me what rules passage makes you think that a variant class counts as a different class?

I'll post the full argument when I get home. The basic premise is that save for explicit exceptions, when a feature, feat, ACF mentions something like "Cleric", it can't be applied to the "Cloistered Cleric" because despite both classes having "Cleric" in their name, they're different classes.


I'm not so sure only medium proficiency is required. Mithril full plate isn't medium armor, it's treated as medium for movement purposes and "other limitations." The language is vague enough that you've got an argument, but I think you need heavy armor proficiency to wear it without penalty.

I dunno... "Requiring a feat to not recieve a major penalty" seems like a limitation for me. I suppose it varies from DM to DM

[Darkweave31]

Not worth it. Why not enjoy a nice prestige class with class features instead of a few extra hit points and a lot less spells?

The major problem with them is that they don't give any further benefits if you take a prestige class (almost universally better than sorcerer 20), but their penalties continue to apply.

Only time when it might be worth it is at low levels, and even then...
BAB isn't that different, maybe +1 over normal sorcerer
HP are definitely increased
weapon and armor proficiency is nice, nothing major
Spellcasting is hit very hard (compare benefits of light armor and HP vs defensive spells you could have chosen instead)

[Ellowryn]

As for weather or not variants of classes are completely separate classes, checking in Unearthed Arcana it seems to be entirely up to the DM. Although most of the variants are written in such a way that without them counting as their basic classes then many of their class features don't work correctly, for example C Clerics and their domains and turning/rebuking, barbarians and their rage, and bards with their bardic music and knowledge.

Of course if you wanted to allow good things for tier 3 and less classes you could, as DM, allow only such classes to be able to have their features work correctly while tier 1 and 2 classes don't, but even core only non-variant tier 1's are still better than any variant tier 3's and below.

[Ethelesin]

I apologize if this is not in line with the topic at hand but i wanted to toss my hat in the ring nonetheless, and provide an int focused alternative.

Human wizard5/KnightPhantom3/AbjurantChampion5/KnightPhantom+7

Take Militia and combat casting at level 1, grab still spell at either level 3 or 5 and make sure to grab 4 ranks in ride.

17BaB and 19/20 casting. Not too shabby if i do say so myself.

[Grim Reader]

Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 20 is entirely playable in group without a very high optimization level. However, in most cases, SBS 19 is more enjoyable. By which I mean that 1 level of some class that lets you loosen the incredibly tight "spells known" of the SBS makes for much more enjoyable play.

A dip of Sand Shaper, for example, nets you over 40 spells known. Including a line of Summons, blasty spells (How many opponents resist Dehydration damage?) and gishy spells like Bulls strength, often at a lower level than normal.

Or Mage of the Arcane Order. Spellpool I adds a lot of utility.

The Sand Shaper option is also open to a Favoured Soul. But its much more finicky to enter.

[Fouredged Sword]

You are better off going into PRC's with gishy abilities rather than losing so much to your alt class features. Once you PRC out, you lose all the benefits of battle sorcerer and keep all the penalties.

Consider instead

Sorcerer 6 / Ruthar 3 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 6. Good defensive abilities and decent melee without losing a single spell known or caster level.

[Extra Anchovies]

The Sand Shaper option is also open to a Favoured Soul. But its much more finicky to enter.

Not much more finicky. It's one feat away, thanks to Southern Magician (from some FR book).

[Seerow]

Personally, I am a fan of SBS. Yes, you lose a ton of versatility in terms of the lost spells known, and that can be painful... but if what you are looking for is a fighter with a handful of tricks up his sleeve, the SBS really does hit the mark.

Also whoever it was that said straight Bard 20 outfights and outcasts SBS, I'd like to see some proof of that. SBS still has 7th-9th level spells, and full access to the Wizard/Sorc spell list (read: most of the buffs and mobility options that a gish is going to really want), while having a d12 effective hit die and the same BAB as the Bard. The Bard has Bardic Music to offset some of that... but unless you're blowing half your feats into it Bardic Music isn't going to compete with the buffs the Wizard spell list can provide. And if you are blowing half your feats into it, those are feats the SBS can have into other things.

My only real complaint is that as someone else mentioned if you prestige out you do not continue to progress any of the benefits, but do continue to hold onto all of the penalties, which makes it a generally inferior pick for any multiclass build unless being used for an earlier entry (Swiftblade was already mentioned). Even then though, if you are playing from low level and not just talking about the theoretical build at level 20, the extra combat ability and survivability at low levels is going to be very attractive. That extra HP and armor is going to be a major advantage until level 5-6, which incidentally is around the same time you would be prestiging out.



edit:

Sorcerer 6 / Ruthar 3 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 6. Good defensive abilities and decent melee without losing a single spell known or caster level.


So now our baseline for a gish is "build that has Abjurant Champion" in it?

[Extra Anchovies]

So now our baseline for a gish is "build that has Abjurant Champion" in it?

That's not a gish, it's only BAB +13. I set the line for "gish" at BAB +15 and 15/20 casting.

[Xerlith]

That's not a gish, it's only BAB +13. I set the line for "gish" at BAB +15 and 15/20 casting.

So, basically, if we swap IotSV to Eldritch Knight or something, this works. And at that point, a straight-up Sorc6/EK2/AC5/EK+7 is strictly better.




Also whoever it was that said straight Bard 20 outfights and outcasts SBS, I'd like to see some proof of that. SBS still has 7th-9th level spells, and full access to the Wizard/Sorc spell list (read: most of the buffs and mobility options that a gish is going to really want), while having a d12 effective hit die and the same BAB as the Bard. The Bard has Bardic Music to offset some of that... but unless you're blowing half your feats into it Bardic Music isn't going to compete with the buffs the Wizard spell list can provide. And if you are blowing half your feats into it, those are feats the SBS can have into other things.


'Twas me. And I was talking mainly about the playable (4-12ish) levels. True, the Sorcerer gets 7th-9th level spells, but as they're a Stalwart Battle one, it's very late and little. Most of the time (pre-14?), the Bard has the same amount of spells/day and a comparable amount of spells known, while casting from a better gish-centered list.

About feats: Well, there are only two feats needed for the Bard to perform well in combat, that is Song of the Heart (which can be taken at 3rd level without burning feats) and Dragonfire Inspiration (Silverbrow human qualification takes care of the dragonblood subtype). So that's a net worth of one feat and a race lock-in (Human, Silverbrow). If we want a GREAT performance, then yes, Words of Creation also take a feat slot. That is, still, only two feats behind the SBS.

What bard has going for itself is the fact that he can still work as a force multiplicator with the DFI affecting the whole party.

Now, a bard benefits also from an Echoblade, has a better skill list (UMD further allows to cast spells from outside the normal capacity - I'm not actually making a point out of it because it's not a class ability per se).

[Seerow]

'Twas me. And I was talking mainly about the playable (4-12ish) levels. True, the Sorcerer gets 7th-9th level spells, but as they're a Stalwart Battle one, it's very late. Most of the time (pre-14?), the Bard has the same amount of spells/day and a comparable amount of spells known, while casting from a better gish-centered list.


If we're talking about levels 4-12, that's the levels where 2-3 feats is the majority of what you have. At every level above 5, Sorcerer has access to at least one full spell level higher than the Bard. By the top end of your "playable" range the Sorcerer is 2 spell levels ahead.

Also Bard having the better gish centered list? Yeah no. Bard does get some nice gish spells, but every one that comes to mind that I've checked (including nice lower level ones like Bladeweave, Haste, and [Greater] Mirror Image) is shared with the Wizard/Sorc list, and the SBS will get them before the Bard and be able to cast more often. Meanwhile Sorc gets access to stuff like the Polymorph line, Bite of X, Heart of _____, and so on that the Bard has no access to.

And of course if you are looking at the lower levels (2-4) where the Bard's casting is even with the Sorcerer's, those are the levels where the Sorcerer's extra hit points are going to matter the most, and an extra 5-10 hp is the difference between being super squishy and a front line warrior.


The Bard has an advantage for party buffing from bardic music. But as far as outcasting and outfighting? Not even close, no matter what level you are looking at.

[Xerlith]

If we're talking about levels 4-12, that's the levels where 2-3 feats is the majority of what you have. At every level above 5, Sorcerer has access to at least one full spell level higher than the Bard. By the top end of your "playable" range the Sorcerer is 2 spell levels ahead.


I don't have an exact comparison before me, but I'm pretty sure that the Battle Sorcerer variant loses a spell known/level, with Stalwart sorcerer furthering the loss by one of the highest level. So, going off the Sorcerer chart, the SBS gains his first 2nd level spell at... 7th level? That's a serious downside.

As for your other points, I concede - you raised some valid ones.

[Fax Celestis]

Personally, I am a fan of SBS. Yes, you lose a ton of versatility in terms of the lost spells known, and that can be painful... but if what you are looking for is a fighter with a handful of tricks up his sleeve, the SBS really does hit the mark.

Right. SBS is "fighter-with-some-magic-tricks", not "caster-that-hits-things".

[Seerow]

I don't have an exact comparison before me, but I'm pretty sure that the Battle Sorcerer variant loses a spell known/level, with Stalwart sorcerer furthering the loss by one of the highest level. So, going off the Sorcerer chart, the SBS gains his first 2nd level spell at... 7th level? That's a serious downside.

As for your other points, I concede - you raised some valid ones.

Except it has the specific wording of "minimum 1". So you get your first 2nd level spell at 4th exactly as you should. That's what makes Stalwart Sorcerer and Battle Sorcerer so great together, Stalwart Sorcerer is basically just a free addition to Battle Sorcerer.

[darksolitaire]

None has yet mentioned Sublime Chord. Bard now casts like sorcerer, has slightly better spell selection due to getting to pick those 5th and 6th level bard spells much earlier, gets to toss skill points around, is handsome like the devil and can sing like an angel.

Bard 8/Eldritch knight 2/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch knight 3

[atemu1234]

As we put it in my group, you traded some of your ability to make the laws of reality your bitch to be able to swing a pointy metal stick. Are you happy?

[Tiri]

As we put it in my group, you traded some of your ability to make the laws of reality your bitch to be able to swing a pointy metal stick. Are you happy?

You could also swing a club or a quarterstaff.

[Sir Chuckles]

As we put it in my group, you traded some of your ability to make the laws of reality your bitch to be able to swing a pointy metal stick. Are you happy?
Yes. Yes I am.

I've played a Stalwart Battle Domain Sorcerer. Made for an...interesting time as a Swiftblade. It was low-op, so the Spinning Halberd build I went with worked well.
So ultimately: there are faaaar better ways of doing what SBS tries to do. At tables where the optimization allows you to pull of ridiculous things like Minotaur Stalwart Battle Sorcerer/Swiftblade, it can be fun and contribute greatly as a beatstick.

@heavyfuel:
Would you, by your ruling that variant classes are different classes, state that Zhentarim Fighter does not qualify for Fighter feats, such as Greater Weapon Focus?

[Kazyan]

Since there's ambiguity about whether the ACFs can be combined that I wasn't aware of beforehand, I'd added a note about that to the handbook.

[Extra Anchovies]

@heavyfuel:
Would you, by your ruling that variant classes are different classes, state that Zhentarim Fighter does not qualify for Fighter feats, such as Greater Weapon Focus?

Those are sub levels, not a class variant.

[Sir Chuckles]

Those are sub levels, not a class variant.

...let's just pretend that I said "Thug Fighter" or "Any of the Dragon Mag Fighters".

[heavyfuel]

@heavyfuel:
Would you, by your ruling that variant classes are different classes, state that Zhentarim Fighter does not qualify for Fighter feats, such as Greater Weapon Focus?

...let's just pretend that I said "Thug Fighter" or "Any of the Dragon Mag Fighters".

Again, it's not a matter of how I would rule. I would rule this as ok. It's a matter that the class name isn't "Fighter", not even "Thug Fighter", it's "Thug". And despite it being a Fighter variant, if something requires X levels of "Fighter", you need, by RAW, to be a "Fighter", not a "Thug".

I understand that most DMs, myself included, ignore this rule at least most of the time. But it still needs to be taken into consideration that the DM of whoever is asking for advice might like to follow it.

[LentilNinja]

Since there's ambiguity about whether the ACFs can be combined that I wasn't aware of beforehand, I'd added a note about that to the handbook.

Oh hey my post accomplished something in someone's guide. Well don't I feel dandy :smallredface:

Anyway, I'm seeing some valid points for both sides. I personally am also on the side that combining ACFs and Class Variants is fair (I once played a replace-all-the-things Ranger) because no DM I know would allow a player to go Fighter 2 / Thug 2 / Corsair (Drag Mag) 2 / Bodyguard 2 / etc you get the idea. Since you wouldn't be allowed to take those, I see the variant as the same class as the original.

[CaPtMalHammer]

I really like stalwart and metamagic specialist variants for sorcerer. not sure about battle because well not something I have dealt with much. as for swiftblade etc. the build is up to you and what is allowed. I know in most my local groups webbased and dragon magazine stuff is not allowed. they tend to keep it to printed book. abjurant champion and eldritch knight are great for this type of build. I think that favored soul almost takes it though over a straight stalwart build but only just. as for stalwart. losing 1 high level spell to gain a weapon focus and 2 hp per level it great. metamagic is better in that you lose the familiar which is a hinderence anyway to gain spontaneous metamagic which is awesome for blasty goodness and even for buffing. quicken is a huge asset.