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JackMage666
2007-03-27, 12:06 AM
For my next character, I was considering making a Mage Slayer, someone who focuses specifically on killing casters. While very limited sounding, the high BAB and Str should balance him out to make him OK at fighting other things, but he'll really show his colors when fighting spellcasters. Right now, the thigns I've got to build him are -

Human or Dwarf. Possibly Karsite, but it's unlikely (+2 level adjustment scares me, but prove me wrong if you think otherwise)
Starting off as a Ranger with Favored Enemy (Arcanist), from the Complete Mage. This puts a focus on Arcane Casters, but not much of one, and it's better than nothing to start with. I'd like to switch out of Ranger into something else, although I haven't figured out what, considering I need +5 BAB for....
Mage Slayer PrC, as some of it's abilities are quite good for my focus.
The Mage Slayer feat Tree from Complete Arcane, as I cannot see any fault in any of the feats. I mean, cannot cast defensively, their AC buffs drop, AND displacement doesn't work? Can't go wrong with that.
And a Magebane (Complete Arcane) weapon, which of course will be my select weapon for the Mage Slayer PrC's abilities. ALOT of damage to casters.

Anything else I can add to make it stronger? It's ECL 7 right now, with standard wealth, so obviously it won't get anything too strong, yet anyway. I'd like a race with SR, but I don't want the +2 LA that most seem to give for that ability. Am I the only one who thinks SR is overrated and costs way too much? It's basically AC vs. Spells that the Casters has Perfect BAB for.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-27, 12:16 AM
A psychic warrior synchronicity abuser (to deal with quickened spells) AoO build with the thicket of blades stance (to deal with anything else). At higher levels maybe even try to fit in double hit and dual strike, so your readied actions and AoOs have a better chance of interrupting.

At high level all you do is manifest a linked synchronicity (next round you can link synchronicity to some cheap swift power) stand next to the caster with thicket of blades active. If he tries to cast a quickened spell you interrupt him, if he tries to cast a non quickened spell you interrupt him, if he tries to move away you make him stand still ... if he doesn't move away you kill him.

ocato
2007-03-27, 11:16 AM
I am not familiar with mageslayer but you'll want something with evasion/improved evasion and some good reflexes I'd say. Or you could take a page from the Elder Scrolls classes and make your mageslayer like their witch hunter, ie, have access to limited spells for the sake of counterspelling, dispelling, and stunning (fortitude save stuns like soundburst, shout, or greater shout deal a hunk of damage to low hit die having full casters and that stun could make or break a fight with something squishy.) Granted you could probably acquire the counterspelling via ring or dispelling via wand/scroll (maybe start off rogue for UMD and Evasion) so these are all just ideas. Another good reason to consider a high dexterity class like rogue would be a respectable touch AC. You'd put off getting that Mage Slayer PrC if you need +5 BaB but you'd be pretty rough in a fight versus a wizard or sorcerer.

silentknight
2007-03-27, 06:13 PM
I remember a PrC from Complete Warrior called Occult Slayer that might be an option. I don't have the book though, and I don't remember much more than the name.

Aximili
2007-03-27, 06:44 PM
Dragonborn of bahamut (with the senses option)
Dragon Wings Feat tree.
Item of continuous Anti-magic field.

That way you get an Anti-magic field, and both Blindsight and Flying to reach those out of reach. That's as close as you can get, and you still won't reach those that dimension door away (which will be 99% of them).
(Yeah, I know Continuous AMF is not something you suggest in a thread, but hey, maybe someone will get to try it).^^

Darion
2007-03-27, 07:11 PM
If you can suck up a large LA, Varoot Nera from Fiend Folio gives you reflective spellresistance.

Foehunter (from MoW, 3.0 but still good) allows you to pick a favored enemy (arcanist) to get good benefits against, the best of which is the Favored SR (which explicitely stacks with other SR).

Combining either Nerra or Karsite and Foehunter can give you SR most arcanists can't touch (50ish at level 20), with the bonus of either healing or reflecting. Obviosuly, good casters have tricks that SR doesn't stop, but its a good start. Add in evasion/improved evasion/mettle and a Mind Blank item and you're about as good as a non-caster is likely to be.

Stephen_E
2007-03-27, 11:42 PM
I don't have acess to the more recent books, but here are a few points I looked at when I was playing with the concept previously.

Race - Pixie it quite strong. Yes, it has a +4 lev adj, but it has DR10/Cold Iron (Cold Iron weapons are rare and expensive to enchant) Flight, Imp Invisibility (yes, I know that see invisibility is a common spell, but mages don't always have it up, and their mooks almost never have it) and a strong SR - 15 + Class levels. Also it give you strong Dex, Wis and Char, with a livable Str penalty - later in my post you'll see the advantages of these.

Weapons - Spiked Chain is very strong. This is because the Mage Slayer feat chain mentioned only works while your opponent is within reach. Against a non-reach weapon the Mage steps back 5' and lets loose (yes, I know you can ready an action, but that only works if you can get adjacent with a single move. Rely on that and you'll have a short career). Another advantage is that you can take a level in Exotic Weaponmaster and gain the ability to deliver Stunning attacks via your Spike Chain. Also with a reach weapon, you can against a ground based mage fly 10' high and threaten his square and all adjacent squares while been out of his reach. This is useful against a Mage whose Concentration is good enough that he figures he can cast, sucking the AOO, and balst you with a touch spell.

Feats: You've already mentioned the Mageslayer feat tree, but it is important to remember that if you use the ability to remove AC buffs, it remove AL spells that increase AC in any way, even if the total effect of the spell is no change, so long as any part of the spell increases the AC the spell goes (Righteous Might, Polymorth, Haste, Cats grace, Owls Wisdom if they have Monk levs) and if you can convince your GM by fast talking or another feat that it includes spelllike/supernatural effects you can drop Druids out of Wildshape (I've never seen a Druid Wild shape inot something that didn't increase his Dex, NAC or decrease his size, all of which are AC boosts) Stunning fist is useful because it's a Fort Save. Not the best save of Wizards. Nothing like watching a Mage say "to hell with it" suck the damage from the AOO and make his concentration ck, only to fail the Fort save and spend the next round going "duh......". Getting it through two levels of Monk is useful in that it also give you Evasion, Combat Relexes and a good touch AC. The Flyby Attack and Great Flyby (Savage Species) tree is nice if you take a Pixie becuase it allows you to be useful in general as well as a antimage (fly in a straight line for upto 1 moves distance, attacking a numer of targets you pass within reach off upto your Dex bonus. No AOOs from those you attack). If that move leaves you within reach of a Mage, that's just to bad for the mage. Power Attack is nice because if you strip the AC buffs off a mage via the Mage Slayer feat tree, you'll probably have BAB to burn, and making it harder for the concentration check caused by AOOs is a good idea.

Classes. - Occult slayer from Complete Arcane has already been mentioned. I just pointed out the strengths of Monk. Hexblade is also worth a dip for Mettle (Evasion for Fort and Will saves) and Arcane Resistance (Char bonus to saves vs spells). If you can pick up further Save boosts via Char it is worth it if if the prereq requirements aren't too steep. Blackguard is one possibility, but I beleive there are others. In general dipping/multiclassing is a good idea. No base class I know of it designed for mageslaying, but many have useful features that are accessible by a quick dip.

BAB: A decent BAB is important, but don't stress to much about losing the occasional level. With the Mageslayer feat tree alowing you to ignore and strip mage AC boosts, a huge BAB isn't critical.

Stephen

marjan
2007-03-28, 12:15 AM
You can also dip in one lvl of Pious Templar. It will give you mettle and has good fortitude and will saves.

Stephen_E
2007-03-28, 12:34 AM
If you go Spiked Chain a 1 lev dip in Swashbuckler for Weapon Finnese means you can reduce your MAD. If you take the Pixie route a further 2 levs of Swashbuckler will give you your Int bonus (and Pixies have a +8 Int stat) as precision damage, making Strength largely irrelevant beyond the 13 needed for Power Attack. Note that the Peirce Magical Concealment from the MageSlayer Tree means the Mages use of concealment to stop precision damage fails.

I'd not recommend the Psychic Warrior route unless your GM is defining Psionics and Magic as completly unrelated. Otherwise your Mageslayer Feat tree makes your psionics useless (the -4 CL will translate to a -4 to the psionic equivalent of CL)

Remember regarding LA + races, that there are rules for buying off the LA at higher levels. It is always worth doing this if the GM allows it.

IIRC a 20 lev Mageslayer build a drew up once was 3 Swashbuckle, 2 Monk, 3 Hexblade (this alows you Wand use) 1 Exotic Weaponmaster, 5 Occult Slayer Pixie +4 adj (I can't remember the last 2 levels. Might've been Fighter for the feats)

Remember the creed of Mageslayers -
"NOTHING that is to the detriment of spellcasters is Cheese!"

Stephen

JackMage666
2007-03-28, 12:49 AM
Well, a pixie LA isn't really wanted, as then I'd have only 3 class levels, and, thus, be very, very squishy.

However, I do love the idea of a Hexblade. The build I'm thinking of now is a Karsite Haxblade/Monk, as it'll give me Mettle and Evasion, as well as a good save stat for all three stats. It will make getting into the Occult Slayer PrC more dificult, as well as remove my (weak) favored enemy bonus, but I think I like that build alot better.

JackMage666
2007-03-28, 12:53 AM
Scratch that, I just remembered a few things, and I'd go with Rogue instead of Monk. Saves'll be worse, yeah, but more skills and such will prove infinitely more useful, especially because the Occult Slayer needs a signiture weapon (and it can't be fists).

Stephen_E
2007-03-28, 01:48 AM
Regarding a signature weapon, you need both reach and adjacent AOO capability.
This means either Spiked Chain, Reach weapon + Spiked Gauntlents or Reach + Unarmed attack,

Frankly, without reach you simply aren't going to be effective.

You also need to have a way of getting past the mooks and getting to the Mages. If you don't take a race with flight you need some other way. Relying on Tumble won't really cut it unless your GM is been VERY kind. The speed loss combined with the probable need to tumble through multiple enemies, means until you can reliably make 30+ checks AND have 60'+ movement you won't really cut it.

Stephen

melchizedek
2007-03-28, 02:18 AM
If you aren't too opposed to casting spells yourself, you might go with the Spellthief from Complete Adventurer. Even if you were unwilling to cast the spells yourself, just being able to steal them would be a huge benefit. Unfortunately, if you wanted to take any prestige classes, you'd probably never be able to steal higher level spells. Even so, merely going up high enough to get your +5 BAB (Level 7) would give you a number of very useful abilities against spell casters and the ability to steal up to third level spells.

brian c
2007-03-28, 02:49 AM
Feats: You've already mentioned the Mageslayer feat tree, but it is important to remember that if you use the ability to remove AC buffs, it remove AL spells that increase AC in any way, even if the total effect of the spell is no change, so long as any part of the spell increases the AC the spell goes (Righteous Might, Polymorph, Haste, Cats grace, Owls Wisdom if they have Monk levs) and if you can convince your GM by fast talking or another feat that it includes spelllike/supernatural effects you can drop Druids out of Wildshape (I've never seen a Druid Wild shape inot something that didn't increase his Dex, NAC or decrease his size, all of which are AC boosts)

I call shenanigans.

The description of the feat Pierce Magical Protection says (emphasis mine) "If you deal damage to your opponent, you also instantly and automatically dispel all that opponent's spells and spell effects that grant a bonus to Armor Class."

The way it's worded (that grant a bonus) it should only effect spells that directly give a bonus to Armor Class. It will not dispel Cat's Grace, because although the increase in Dex may lead to an increase in AC, the spell itself does not "grant a bonus to Armor Class". Same thing goes for Owl's Wisdom, Polymorph and Wild Shape. Righteous Might and Haste actually say that they increase AC (it's a direct effect of the spell) so there's a bit more leeway with that but you still might run into a DM who wouldn't allow it.

The Mormegil
2007-03-28, 03:30 AM
There isn't much to say after what Stephen have said, but watch this:
...
-Hell!- Can't figure out the names of the feats, you'll hav to guess out them.
However: Spiked Chain is a must. There is also a feat that makes you use it as a Special Monk Weapon. Take also the feat that allows you to unbalance foes at +4 and the feat (guess it's called Throw Down) that allows you to get an unbalance check everytime you deal more than 10 damages. You'll need a hundred feats, but in the end you gain this: 1st round- charge. You use your feats and decrease his AC to minimum. Then you use Power Attack and Swashbuckler's ability (remember Int and Str ADD together, they don't replace each other) to deal more than 10 damages (Power atack alone gets you a +10, 'cause you use a two-handed weapon) and kick down the spellcaster. He tries to get up? Unless he has many ranks in Tumble, you have an AoO. Thanks to Combat Reflexes you'll have more than one in each turn, so if h tries again, you kick him down again. He tries to cast pinned? You get an AoO and persuade him to silence. He tries to move away on the floor? You have reach and can move to get by him next round. Every time he grants you an AoO you throw him down and ruin his spell. Funny isn't it?
Remember, anyway, that spellcasters are always more powerful than other classes. Unless you become a spellcaster yourself, you'll have to face Walls of Force and Dimensional Doors many times, and you're not going to make it everytime. Don't get me wrong: Hexblad and Monk classes are going to help, just don't be overconfident.

In the end: you need Ranger, Monk, Hexblade, Swashbuckler, Warrior, Exotic Master and Occult Slayer.
Personally: Ranger 1, Monk 2, Hexblade 3, Swashbuckler 3, Warrior 4, Exotic Master 2 and Occult Slayer 5.
Play a human: the bonus feat is always useful.

Level by level:
Ranger 1 (I guess skill points are welcome)
-Chosen enemy
-Weapon Proficency (spiked chain)
-Mage Slayer
Monk 1
-Unarmed attack
-Stunning fist
-AC bonus
Monk 2
-Special Monk Weapon (Spiked Chain)
-Combat Reflexes
-Evasion
Swashbuckler 1
-Favourite Weapon (Spiked Chain)
Swashbuckler 2
-Grace +1
Swashbuckler 3
-Accurate Hit
-Combat Expertise
Warrior 1
-Improved Unbalance
Next:
Warrior 2
-Throw Down
Occult Slayer 1
-Power Attack
Occult Slayer 2
Occult Slayer 3
Occult Slayer 4
-Ignore Magic Defenses
Occult Slayer 5
Exotic Master 1
-Stunning
Hexblade 1
-Hexblade curse
-Ignore Magic Occultation
Hexblade 2
Hexblade 3
-Mettle
Exotic Master 2
-Exotic Reach
-Jumping Attack

The Mormegil
2007-03-28, 03:45 AM
Hey! Another idea!
Why don't you go in struggle?
In CW there's a PrC just for that (Master Wrestler?)
Spellcasters don't have much of a Bab or even Str modifier: plus the PrC I just suggested has a few abilities that need a Fortitude save to avoid being put asleep or even killed!
A few things for that: you don't need monk class to fight unarmed. There is a feat in the Book of Seven Swords that grants you the damages of a monk of a size lower, without losing Bab. If you think Evasion is worth a point of Bab, take 2 levels of monk and 4 levels of Hexlade. Taking the 4th level of Hexblade allows you to take the marbelous feat in CAd that makes you SUM the two classes in order to get AC bonuses. You'll have good saves, good Bab, good Struggle modifier and a few feats left to get Mage Slayer and so on. I do stick to the idea reach is good, but if you like this best:
Monk2 Hexblade4 Wrestler5 and then Warrior, or maybe Justicer (CW) if you like it (Str damages every non-lethal damage attack, Nail special ability).

marjan
2007-03-28, 03:52 AM
In CW there's a PrC just for that (Master Wrestler?)
Reaping Mauler.

SumGuy
2007-03-28, 05:05 AM
I thought spiked chains couldnt be monk weapons...yeah, SRD says only club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling

AtomicKitKat
2007-03-28, 05:19 AM
Don't forget the Knight. If you can knock them down within your 10 foot radius(assuming you use a reach weapon), they'll have to spend their whole turn getting up, difficult terrain(can't 5 foot step out, I think?) and so on. Look for the Tar Baby Knight thread on wizards' CO board.

Stephen_E
2007-03-28, 08:54 AM
I thought spiked chains couldnt be monk weapons...yeah, SRD says only club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling

These are the weapons Monks are proficient with, and can Flurry with.
Nothing stops a Monk taking the Exotic Weapon proficincy feat and using a Spiked Chain. As for delivering Stunning attacks via the Spiked Chain. This has nothing to do with been a Monk. The Exotic Weapon Master has a class ability that allow you to use Exotic Weapons to deliver Stunning Attacks, if you have the Stunning Attack feat. While Monks can choose the Stunning Attack as one of their bonus feats, they don't get the ability to deliver said attack with weapons.

Re: AC Bonuses. The feat "automatically dispell all that opponent's spells and spell effects that grant a bonus to Armour Class". Note it does remove "AC Bonuses" which is a specific term, but removes spels/spell effects "that grant a bonus to Armour Class". Because the term "bonus" is not in caps they're referring to ANYTHING that give a positive modifier to your AC, and because the mention "spell effects" it isn't required that the intent of the spell is to give you an AC boost, it's only required that a single effect of the spell increases your AC.

No shenanigans involved.
Besides, remember the motto of the Mage Slayer "NOTHING that is detrimental to spellcasters is cheese!"

One thing I missed for the dedicated Mageslayer.
Take Leadership and get a Beholder Cohort. The Antimagic Eye is a real bonus (remember the motto before responding :smallwink: )

Stephen

brian c
2007-03-28, 09:50 AM
He tries to get up? Unless he has many ranks in Tumble, you have an AoO. Thanks to Combat Reflexes you'll have more than one in each turn, so if h tries again, you kick him down again.

This has been discussed before, but when someone is standing up from prone you may not use your AoO to knock them back down; the AoO comes when the character is still prone, and you can't make someone more prone. You get the AoO; whether or not you hit and whether or not you deal damage the action resolves with the character standing up. RAW is very clear about this.

JackMage666
2007-03-28, 10:11 AM
I understand that, while nothing is cheese, I don't want my DM to throw me out. As well, I'm not fighting fully optimized casters here, so I don't need to follow up with complete optimization. Spiked Chain use requires another feat, unfortunately, so I'm just going to use the Hexblade proficiency to give me a reach weapon to use, and switch back to being a monk so that I haev a close range weapon. I'm trying to keep the classes down to a reasonable number, and I'm sure my DM would hate me for a 1 lvl dip in any class.

oddbovine
2007-03-28, 10:45 AM
The great thing about monks with reach weapons is that you can simultaneously kick a man at short range and stab a man at long range.

JackMage666
2007-03-28, 11:43 AM
Never thought of that....

I'll call him - Shanks and Kicks

Aximili
2007-03-28, 12:07 PM
Knocking him down with a reach weapon really is your best shot. He can't get away from you without prvoking AoO, and he can't cast defensively.

You still have one big problem, the problem that no melee has been able to get around lately.

Swift spells don't provoke AoO. Which means that, if the fallen mage casts swift invisibility (1st level spell) or just about any quickened retreating spell, he can just DD away or cast that stupid saveless spell (Otto's Irresistible dance, anyone?) that's gonna screw you over.

(Of course, if the game's frendly enough that the enemies don't have such spells in their sleeves, than you're good, and you probably shouldn't worry so much about completely neutralizing spellcasters. Things should be finbe the way they are.)

PinkysBrain
2007-03-28, 04:08 PM
No pure melee can interrupt quickened spells, but a psionic gish can with synchronicity.

Aximili
2007-03-28, 08:27 PM
Hm...1st level power... Cheap... Effective...

Synchronicity is not a bad idea. Not bad at all.

Stephen_E
2007-03-28, 09:55 PM
I beleive you can interrupt Swift cast spells if you have a readied action to hit them if they cast.

But other than that, yes the quickened spells are a Melee Mage Slayers bane.
Depending on how you read the "Peirce Magical Concealment" feat, Invisibility won't let the caster walk away without AOOs, but that still leaves Dimension Door ecetre.

Personally I think they should add a feat to the Mage Slayer tree which allows AOOs on Quickened spells.

Stephen

Aximili
2007-03-28, 09:59 PM
Depending on how you read the "Peirce Magical Concealment" feat, Invisibility won't let the caster walk away without AOOs, but that still leaves Dimension Door ecetre.
Yeah, didn't think about that.


Personally I think they should add a feat to the Mage Slayer tree which allows AOOs on Quickened spells.

If one of my players asked for it, I'd certainly allow it.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-29, 10:56 AM
Hm...1st level power... Cheap... Effective...

Synchronicity is not a bad idea. Not bad at all.
Well, the concept of synchronicity is using it with quicken or linked power ... manifesting it as a standard action isn't a real benefit over simply readying an action to interrupt a quickened spellcasting.

Person_Man
2007-03-29, 01:10 PM
The four things you need to defeat spellcasters:

1) Very high Saves or SR
2) High mobility and flight
3) Ability to deal high damage in one attack action
4) Ability to cast See Invisibility, True Sight, Dispel Magic, etc, and other spells that remove common caster buffs

So I suggest something like:

Strongheart Halfling Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny or Slaughter (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#paladin) 3

1) You get double your Cha bonus to most Saves. You get Mettle. Buy a Ring of Evasion, and now you're 95% immune to things that allow a Save.

2) Since you're a Halfling, you're small. You can ride a medium mount almost anywhere. Take another two levels of Paladin for the special mount ability, and the Dragon Cohort feat from the Draconomicon so that your Paladin mount is a dragon (which is powerful and can obviously fly, thus thwarting anyone who casts Fly on themselves, and many battlefield control spells). Or take the Dragon Familiar feat from the same book, and ride your Hexblade familiar. (Though I prefer using the Hexblade's PHBII Dark Servant variant instead of a familiar, and the Paladin mount route yields a more powerful dragon).

3) Use a lance two handed from the back of your dragon mount. Take Power Attack, Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack, and Spirited Charge. Use your lance two handed with Power Attack from while riding your dragon, and you now deal 50ish+ damage on a charge, and then keep moving into your enemy so your dragon can also attack. If for some reason your enemy is still alive, just stop in front of him. With your reach, he can't take a 5' step out of your threatened area. And with Mage Slayer, he can't cast defensively.

4) You have several options for this. Your goal is to thwart the most common caster protections - Invisibility, Mirror Image, Stoneskin, etc. Many useful anti-caster spells can be replicated with magic items, but they tend to be expensive. You can use scrolls, since many excellent anti-caster spells are on the Hexblade list, though you risk a chance of scroll failure since they'll usually be above your current caster level. or you can just continue on your Hexblade or Paladin progression, gaining access to spells that way and improving your mount. Or you could head into a PrC, though I wouldn't bother with the Occult Slayer PrC, because their abilities really aren't that useful.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-29, 05:25 PM
Special mount cohorts are by DM fiat ... since there is an actual (much less powerful) feat which allows you to get a dragon as a special mount I think a lot of DMs simply won't allow it.

Aximili
2007-03-29, 05:51 PM
Well, the concept of synchronicity is using it with quicken or linked power ... manifesting it as a standard action isn't a real benefit over simply readying an action to interrupt a quickened spellcasting.
Indeed, you have to quicken it.
But even if you don't, there's a diference. If you ready an action with the power, you can use it up whenever you want, without especifying the trigger.

That means that you can make your attack even if he doesn't cast a quickened spell, instead of just wasting your action as would have happened readied it normally.

But I agree with Person Man, one hit killing is the safest and easiest way to take down a caster.

Stephen_E
2007-03-29, 07:39 PM
Indeed, you have to quicken it.
But I agree with Person Man, one hit killing is the safest and easiest way to take down a caster.

That's one of the reasons I liked the Monk dip. With Stunning Fist, delivered by hand or by Exotic Weapon, even if you don't kill the mage, he has to make a Fort save (not a good save for mages) or be stunned for the next round, at which point you get a full round to put him down or even stun him for a further round.

On this theme, while the feat requirements are a strain, if you get the tactical feat (Comp War) Anvil of Thunder with Dwarven Waraxe and Hammer, you can hit them with the Waraxe for a Stunning attack, and even if they save against that, if you then hit them with the hammer, they have to make another fort save or be dazed (and the only way I'm aware of to be immune to been Dazed - do nothing for a round, is to be immune to things requireing Fort Saves)

Re: Occult Slayer - Nothing useful? What about Mind over Magic, Spell Turning twice a day as a free action is pretty nuce. Nondetection is useful and complte immunity to mind-affecting effects as a free action, sustained as long as you like. What campaign world do you play in that this isn't awesome against spellcasters - Mage - "I cast Otto's Irresitable Dance. No save, Muhahahaaaa". Slayer, shrugs and carves up Mage.

Stephen

Aximili
2007-03-29, 08:22 PM
Stunning fist is good.
But a cheesed Caster might well have a +1 Animated Light Mithral Shield of Heavy Fortification. (It's damn pricy, but immunity to SA, critical, death attack, stunning, and a few other stuff is worth it.)

And than, of course, he might not.:smallwink:

But I think he'll have enough Fort to save against your WIS-is-not-my-primary-stat-Stunning-Fist. (I know, fort is his weak spot. But magic items can improve it quite a bit).

JackMage666
2007-03-29, 08:39 PM
Well, character was finished. Took some advice from the board, and some from a friend. Ended up making...

Bariaur Hexblade 3/Fighter 2/Occult Slayer 1

Uses a +1 Magebane Glaive as his bonded weapon, and has the Short Haft feat to make it have reach or not, depending on the need. As well, he's got a 40 ft land speed, so he's quick on the field. Right now, he's not great, but he IS only ECL 7. Oh, and he's got SR 17, which is helpful, at least. He's mostly only useful against Arcane Casters.

Unoptimized, I know, but playing an optimized charcter would be less fun than what I built. Imagine it, a Half-ram, half-human creature who uses a spear-like weapon at all times, charging into battle the evil spellcaster, first hitting him with his Powerful Charge, then impaling him on his glaive. It's a beautiful sight to imagine.

Aximili
2007-03-29, 08:48 PM
Uses a +1 Magebane Glaive as his bonded weapon, and has the Short Haft feat to make it have reach or not, depending on the need.
You've got one minor problem.
Shorthaft feat only lets you threaten either at 5ft or 10ft, not both at the same time. That means the mage will either be able to 5ft step away and cast, or simply cast right in front of you.

Simple solutions would be to get spiked gauntlets, or trade Shor Haft for EWP Spkied chain.

JackMage666
2007-03-29, 08:51 PM
Again, I say Unoptimized. I realize that, but I wanted a reach weapon bonded, a well as a melee weapon bonded, so I settled for this, and I personally like it. Unoptimized. In case you missed that.

Aximili
2007-03-29, 09:18 PM
Just thought I'd point it out.:smallredface:

JackMage666
2007-03-29, 10:22 PM
Yeah, I'd already noticed it, and I'm OK with it. If my DM wants to have fully optimized NPCs who use unfair tactics at all times, then I don't much want him as my DM. I don't think that fully optimized characters are all that fun, and I'll gladly take the slight problem of picking whether it's reach or not (hey, the ability to choose that still gives me more options than most players using reach weapons, other than the spiked chain, of course)

Person_Man
2007-03-29, 10:35 PM
Special mount cohorts are by DM fiat ... since there is an actual (much less powerful) feat which allows you to get a dragon as a special mount I think a lot of DMs simply won't allow it.

That's certainly true. Like Leadership, the Cohort feat is easily abused. But he's a melee build. So if his other party members are full casters and other moderately strong builds, he should be fine. If not, he'll have to pick up a magic item that can grant him the ability to Fly and will need another high damage option, like Pounce, Pyrokineticist, Duskblade, Headlong Rush, etc.


Also, Monk levels? Seriously? You're just screwing your BAB (and thus Power Attack damage and iterative attacks) and AC. Why even bother with a Stunning Fist? You have to make a touch attack, then the enemy gets a Save, and then you have to deal enough damage through other attacks to kill him. You're wasting actions that you could use to kill other enemies, and mathematically, its inferior to just rolling one attack die. If you hit, he's dead. The only thing superior to that is No Save or battlefield control magic. And since you want to play a Mage Slayer, and not a Mage, some sort of high damage attack is your best bet of killing him. If you don't like mounted combat, I can think of numerous other ways. But anyone on this board will tell you that Monk's are a weak class.

brian c
2007-03-29, 11:44 PM
But anyone on this board will tell you that Monk's are a weak class.

I won't. Have fun dude, monks are awesome.

AtomicKitKat
2007-03-30, 01:18 AM
Bariaur Hexblade 3/Fighter 2/Occult Slayer 1

Right now, he's not great, but he IS only ECL 7.

You've got one huge problem there. A Bariaur(as per Book of Exalted Deeds, which has more or less the most updated version of them) has 3 racial HD, and LA+2, for a grand total of ECL 5. Before class levels.

Edit: Second the Varoot Nerra as a mage-killer. Just looked in Fiend Folio. 1 HD(which will be subsumed by class), LA+3, 30% chance of reflective spell turning(turning spells back on the caster, no less), glass-edged weapons that will cause bleeding, favoured class Rogue, mirror-jumping(as per Shadow-dancer's Shadow Jump, but you can do it from mirrors or any reflective surface. Presumably even the opponent's armour). About the only bad thing they have going for them is a vulnerability to sonic attacks, which could presumably be stopped by getting a permanent Silence spell(or some other item that casts it) upon yourself.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-30, 01:45 AM
Why not go goliath barbarian and take the boulder hurling string of feats? You'd have enough HP to absorb any AoO spells, a fort save to win save or die, the racial tattoo feats that let you roll the best of two dice for saving throws. There's also a feat that let's you add strength instead of dexterity for ranged attacks.

Feats: Auspicious marking (for marking of the blessed)
marking of the blessed (allows rolling 2d20 and taking the best die 3/day)
Boulder hurling
Improved boulder hurling (80' range increment, 2d6+str mod)
Brutal Throw (use str mod in place of dex mod for attackin w/ thrown weapons)
Far shot (requires point blank shot) doubles the range increment of thrown weapons, which means you've got 160' range on hurlin freakin boulders.
Mad Foam Rager allows you to delay the effect of a single spell for 1 round 1/rage or frenzy.
There's a half-orc only feat that lets you immediately spend a rage use on adding your strength bonus to your will save (channeled rage).

Rigeld2
2007-03-30, 06:57 AM
Yeah, I'd already noticed it, and I'm OK with it. If my DM wants to have fully optimized NPCs who use unfair tactics at all times, then I don't much want him as my DM.
I'm sorry... taking a 5' step because he can see where youre gripping the haft of your glaive is unfair?

Person_Man
2007-03-30, 09:01 AM
I'm sorry... taking a 5' step because he can see where youre gripping the haft of your glaive is unfair?

Yeah, I'm with Rigeld on this. Intelligent enemies, especially intelligent enemies with class levels (who have survived other combats) know what reach is, and try to avoid AoOs in most cases.



I won't. Have fun dude, monks are awesome.

I didn't say Monks aren't fun or awesome. I said that they are weak. Are you arguing that they're not weak? If so, you might want to read any one of the hundreds of threads on the subject. While certain Monk/PrC builds are passable, they're definitely on the low end of the power spectrum. Spellcasters are on the high end. And the OP stated he wanted to play a Spellcaster killer, and specifically asked for more powerful options. So in my opinion, playing a Monk in this situation would be a poor choice.

AtomicKitKat
2007-03-30, 11:52 AM
Just to expand on the Varoot Nerra thing above, the only way I can recall to get Sonic Immunity(thereby wiping out the only weakness of the race) is Fleshwarper 2(which is somewhere around 7 arcane class levels or so, plus 2 in Fleshwarper). Any other methods(that wouldn't involve becoming a mage, seeing as you're trying to kill them) that any of you can think of would be appreciated. :)

Aximili
2007-03-30, 09:50 PM
Yeah, I'd already noticed it, and I'm OK with it. If my DM wants to have fully optimized NPCs who use unfair tactics at all times, then I don't much want him as my DM.
I didn't say it before, but 5' steping away from your threatened area is not exactly an optimized (let alone unfair) tatic.
It's survival instinct.

Stephen_E
2007-03-30, 10:33 PM
Also, Monk levels? Seriously? You're just screwing your BAB (and thus Power Attack damage and iterative attacks) and AC. Why even bother with a Stunning Fist? You have to make a touch attack, then the enemy gets a Save, and then you have to deal enough damage through other attacks to kill him. You're wasting actions that you could use to kill other enemies, and mathematically, its inferior to just rolling one attack die. If you hit, he's dead. The only thing superior to that is No Save or battlefield control magic. And since you want to play a Mage Slayer, and not a Mage, some sort of high damage attack is your best bet of killing him. If you don't like mounted combat, I can think of numerous other ways. But anyone on this board will tell you that Monk's are a weak class.

1) Stunning Fist isn't a touch attack.

Now if you take 2 levels of Monk you lose 1 BAB and gain Stunning Fist, with 2 uses, and Combat Reflexes, a good feat for any reach build, as well as good saves (this is a mage slayer build we're talking about) and Evasion (Duh... I shouldn't have to say anything about this). All this for 1 BAB. BAB isn't THAT good.

If you're using an Exotic Weapon, and take a level of Exotic Weaponmaster you can deliver your Stunning Fist through your Exotic Weapon. So while whaling into the mage with your 2hW you can do a stunning attack at the same time. Sure killing the mage outright with one attack is nice, but in reality this is rarely a option. Losing 1 BAB isn't going to make any significant difference to an already unlikely option. If you do successfully stun the mage and gain a full round attack before he can do anything, your chance of killing him outright goes way up.

Stephen

brian c
2007-03-30, 11:18 PM
If you're using an Exotic Weapon, and take a level of Exotic Weaponmaster you can deliver your Stunning Fist through your Exotic Weapon. So while whaling into the mage with your 2hW you can do a stunning attack at the same time. Sure killing the mage outright with one attack is nice, but in reality this is rarely a option. Losing 1 BAB isn't going to make any significant difference to an already unlikely option. If you do successfully stun the mage and gain a full round attack before he can do anything, your chance of killing him outright goes way up.

Stephen

I'm all in favor of taking Monk levels, but I have to point out the flaw in your plan here: Stunning Fist is explicitly only for unarmed attacks. You can't do a stunning attack with an exotic weapon.

However, you may use another part of your body to deliver an unarmed strike, while your hands hold your weapon, as such (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html)

PinkysBrain
2007-03-30, 11:33 PM
Decisive strike makes monk an optimized dip for AoO builds.

Rigeld2
2007-03-30, 11:42 PM
I'm all in favor of taking Monk levels, but I have to point out the flaw in your plan here: Stunning Fist is explicitly only for unarmed attacks. You can't do a stunning attack with an exotic weapon.

However, you may use another part of your body to deliver an unarmed strike, while your hands hold your weapon, as such (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html)
Page 31 of CWar. Which hes referencing in his post that you quoted.
I have to point out the flaw in your post - youre 100% wrong.

brian c
2007-03-31, 12:40 AM
Page 31 of CWar. Which hes referencing in his post that you quoted.
I have to point out the flaw in your post - youre 100% wrong.

I missed the part about exotic weaponmaster, my bad. No need to be snippy.

Besides, I'm not 100% wrong; what I said is only wrong in the case of characters with levels in exotic weaponmaster.

JackMage666
2007-03-31, 01:21 AM
I wasn't refering to a five foot step, so much as teh annoyance of a wizard who prepares a few levels of Dimension Door to escape, as well as the other cheesy tactics. The 5 ft' step is a legitimate tactic, and I wouldn't want to use a Spiked Chain just to eliminate that. Plus, I give credit to any caster who'll survive a charge from this guy. 2d6+1d10+15 on a charge on a regular enemy, 3d6+1d10+15 to a spellcaster of any sort, or fianlly, 5d6+1d10+17 to a Arcane Caster. Not too shabby, especially ignored AC buffs.

And, I'm using the Planar Handbook Bariaur - No racial HD, and only a +1 LA, but considerably weaking than the exalted Bariaurs in the Book of Exalted Deeds.

Beren One-Hand
2007-03-31, 02:16 AM
Another way to get Stunning Fist through your weapon is to have it enchanted with the +1 bonus ability Ki Strike. No Exotic Weapon (or Master there of) necessary!