Possibility for the Death Knight (Spoiler, but highly improbable)

[brian c]

From the wikipedia article on Death Knight (D&D):

A death knight retains its personality from its former life. Some death knights are condemned to remember their downfall through song on any night when the moon is full. Sometimes the chilling melody is sung by musically-inclined servants instead of the death knight itself. Whilst the song is being sung, the death knight will ignore the outside world, unless the song is disturbed, causing the knight to attack with utter ferocity.


So... wouldn't it be great if the Death Knight fake Xykon randomly broke into song in the middle of battle, or the middle of the night if there's a prolonged siege?

[Assassinfox]

Ugh! The only death knight I've ever heard of (and most infamous death knight ever) to have that problem is Lord Soth. Don't believe everything you read on wikipedia. Or anything.

[shadowkire]

From the wikipedia article on Death Knight (D&D):

A death knight retains its personality from its former life. Some death knights are condemned to remember their downfall through song on any night when the moon is full. Sometimes the chilling melody is sung by musically-inclined servants instead of the death knight itself. Whilst the song is being sung, the death knight will ignore the outside world, unless the song is disturbed, causing the knight to attack with utter ferocity.


So... wouldn't it be great if the Death Knight fake Xykon randomly broke into song in the middle of battle, or the middle of the night if there's a prolonged siege?

From Monster Manual II (paraphrasing)
Created by gods of death.....champions of evil.......Commonly raised from blackgaurds, fighters, rangers, barbarians, and paladins.

The easiest way to look at a death knight to call it an undead blackgaurd.

[Kreistor]

I liked what Dragonlance did with Lord Soth. One of my favorite undead villains of all time. I vastly prefer DK's as fallen good guys than being made from Blackguards and the like.

DK's have good defences, but nothing exceptional. They do have Spell Resistance, so casters aren't the best choice. They can't be turned, so that's a big advantage.

So, it comes down to basic hitting with magic weapons to bring the DK down. Obviously, Roy is choice, but he's busy. So, Belkar and Haley with Durkon to heal them shoould take him down.

[BisectedBrioche]

I liked what Dragonlance did with Lord Soth. One of my favorite undead villains of all time. I vastly prefer DK's as fallen good guys than being made from Blackguards and the like.

DK's have good defences, but nothing exceptional. They do have Spell Resistance, so casters aren't the best choice. They can't be turned, so that's a big advantage.

So, it comes down to basic hitting with magic weapons to bring the DK down. Obviously, Roy is choice, but he's busy. So, Belkar and Haley with Durkon to heal them shoould take him down.

Assuming that they know that.

[gadren]

From Monster Manual II (paraphrasing)
Created by gods of death.....champions of evil.......Commonly raised from blackgaurds, fighters, rangers, barbarians, and paladins.

The easiest way to look at a death knight to call it an undead blackgaurd.

Death Knights went under a big change from 2nd to third edition. In second edition they were fallen paladins cursed to undeath for their heinous acts until they attoned. In third edition, well shadowkire got it right.

[factotum]

I liked what Dragonlance did with Lord Soth. One of my favorite undead villains of all time. I vastly prefer DK's as fallen good guys than being made from Blackguards and the like.


Erm...a Blackguard *is* a fallen good guy, isn't it? Unless paladins don't count as good in your world view, of course. :smallsmile:

[BisectedBrioche]

Erm...a Blackguard *is* a fallen good guy, isn't it? Unless paladins don't count as good in your world view, of course. :smallsmile:

I think he meant that they could be any fallen good guy rather than simply a blackguard.

[nothingclever]

Ugh! The only death knight I've ever heard of (and most infamous death knight ever) to have that problem is Lord Soth. Don't believe everything you read on wikipedia. Or anything.
If it's that trivial I don't see why you need to bash Wikipedia.

[Pet_Flumph]

I've never heard that one about the songs before.

I just thought that you'd say that since they retain personality, maybe the Xykon death knight would try to replace the original lich one.

[Pokemaster]

Erm...a Blackguard *is* a fallen good guy, isn't it? Unless paladins don't count as good in your world view, of course. :smallsmile:

It's possible to get into the Blackguard prestige class without being a fallen Paladin. The benefits won't be as good though.

And do Death Knights still get Symbol and Power Word: Kill in 3.5E? I never managed to find the updated version.

[chibibar]

Lord Soth death knight version is pretty dangerous and deadly (can't be killed) also his minion skeletons has drain life tough (unlimited use it seems) and immune to a lot of spells.

scary stuff :)

[Taelas]

You can become a Blackguard without ever having been a good guy at all.

[Assassinfox]

If it's that trivial I don't see why you need to bash Wikipedia.

It's NOT trivial! They're using "sometimes" to describe a case that only applies to one death knight! In fact, I might go in and correct it right now.

[HomerHT]

Well, the use of sometimes still works. Some Death Knights can refer to just one.

All widgets are wackets, but not all wackets are widgets. All death knights affected by songs are death knights, but not all death knights are affected by songs :-P

[themunck]

You can become a Blackguard without ever having been a good guy at all.
yes. All you need is:
to be evil now
have a BaB of +6 or highter
have 5 ranks in hide, and two in knowledge (religion)
have the feats cleve, improved sunder and power attack
have had peaceful contact with an evil oursider summoned by him or somebody else (I think an evil outsider, that isen't summoned count as well)

[Assassinfox]

It would be like finding the article on Fighters and saying "Some fighters are bald, use a greatsword made of starmetal, and are accompanied by a CE halfling, a CN rogue, a CG bard, a LG dwarf cleric, and a Male elf wizard."

[BobTheDog]

It wouldn't say that, because it'd be a CG rogue and a Hermaphrodite elf. :smalltongue:

[HomerHT]

Either way, SOME fighters do that. The article probably does not to be changed, I'm just saying that it's technically correct, and we don't have a whole lot of knowledge about Death Knights to begin with, so it can't be entirely refuted

[Assassinfox]

Either way, SOME fighters do that. The article probably does not to be changed, I'm just saying that it's technically correct, and we don't have a whole lot of knowledge about Death Knights to begin with, so it can't be entirely refuted

The word SOME requires MORE THAN ONE. You can't define a group by what one individual does.


It wouldn't say that, because it'd be a CG rogue and a Hermaphrodite elf. :smalltongue:

The "Male elf" thing was a poke at the whole "V mixed up alignment and gender on the character sheet" joke.

And lets not bring up the whole "Is Haley good?" debate. :smallannoyed:

[Vargtass]

Well, the use of sometimes still works. Some Death Knights can refer to just one.

All widgets are wackets, but not all wackets are widgets. All death knights affected by songs are death knights, but not all death knights are affected by songs :-P

The problem is that the article in Wikipedia does not state that the only example is Soth.

The problem with this evidence is that it is unique. It seems to me that it is not clear whether this song-characteristic is inherently linked to Soth as a unique individual or to him as Death Knight.

As somebody pointed out, we do not know a lot about Death Knights, so it may be difficult to prove which is correct. Until somebody can present evidence linking the song-characteristic to Soth being a Death Knight and not being a unique individual monstrosity that also possess the characteristics common to Death Knights, I agree that the use of "some" in the article is misleading.

[Assassinfox]

The problem is that the article in Wikipedia does not state that the only example is Soth.

The problem with this evidence is that it is unique. It seems to me that it is not clear whether this song-characteristic is inherently linked to Soth as a unique individual or to him as Death Knight.

As somebody pointed out, we do not know a lot about Death Knights, so it may be difficult to prove which is correct. Until somebody can present evidence linking the song-characteristic to Soth being a Death Knight and not being a unique individual monstrosity that also possess the characteristics common to Death Knights, I agree that the use of "some" in the article is misleading.

It's linked to him as an individual. Soth's downfall involved listening to some backstabbing Silvanesti elves, so when the cataclysm hit, those elves became banshees and were cursed to sing his life's story for him every night, reminding him of his follies.

[WarriorTribble]

So... wouldn't it be great if the Death Knight fake Xykon randomly broke into song in the middle of battle, or the middle of the night if there's a prolonged siege?Sounds fun. :smallsmile: For the sake of the paladin haters I say his god should hold the anal domain, and felled him cause he only tipped an ebil unlawful 14.99%, or something similar.

[NeonRonin]

If the Death Knight does randomly break out in song, can you imagine Elan spontaneously breaking out in a duet with him?

:smallbiggrin: Food for thought, anyway...

[Jefepato]

I doubt this'll happen. The death knight might be the toughest customer of the three fake Xykons, though.

[Assassinfox]

I doubt this'll happen. The death knight might be the toughest customer of the three fake Xykons, though.

The Huecuva might be tougher. Kinda depends on what level they're both on. Kinda doubtful that the "Eye of Fear and more Fear" will be much of a threat.

[Electric_Monkey]

Die, die, die, die by the traitor's hand?

[Constantinople]

So... wouldn't it be great if the Death Knight fake Xykon randomly broke into song in the middle of battle, or the middle of the night if there's a prolonged siege?

The whole battle should suddenly brake out in song. That would be awesome. The NPC Arrow Fodder singing the chorus, Death Knight and Vaarsuvius singing the verses, suddenly interrupted by Elan with his ever lovable "Fight, fight, fight the enemy!".

That would be epic.

[fangthane]

I say Thog gets to kill the death knight. The prison turns out to be against the outer wall near the breach, and gets broken open in the continuing struggle. The death knight doesn't care about who dies, he just wants to kill so there's no negotiation or alliance, Nale sucks against the undead, Sabine's drains and physical attacks are near-worthless, so Thog tears off his horse's head and beats him to (re-)death with it.

We've already seen him improvise with a door; why not a horse skull? :)

[MReav]

If the Death Knight does randomly break out in song, can you imagine Elan spontaneously breaking out in a duet with him?

:smallbiggrin: Food for thought, anyway...

I would so totally support it if Elan goes "Summon BFG" (I want a ReBoot reference. One of the best f'in' cartoons of its day)

[chibibar]

The problem with Dragonlance, I don't remember reading of a story of more than one death knight. It was pretty harsh punishment. Unlike other undead, death knights in Dragonlance (so it seems) live forever and can never atone.

as for the music part, It is not stated in the Monster Manual (I may have to double check it) or any Dragon magazine (could also be use as a rule)

[Assassinfox]

The problem with Dragonlance, I don't remember reading of a story of more than one death knight. It was pretty harsh punishment. Unlike other undead, death knights in Dragonlance (so it seems) live forever and can never atone.

Dragonlance Spoiler:

Lord Soth does atone at the end, lose the curse, and die a redeemed man. Of course, Weis and Hickman only did it to spite Ravenloft.

Also, the entry on death knights in Dragonlance Campaign Setting 3E says nothing about having to listen to songs. The sample death knight's description says nothing about him having to listen to songs every night.

[Plactus]

So... wouldn't it be great if the Death Knight fake Xykon randomly broke into song in the middle of battle, or the middle of the night if there's a prolonged siege?

Ooh! Maybe "Thriller" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html)?

[bermyhunter]

From the second edition Monster's manual (out of date for OOT's but not Wikipedia).
Death knights are cursed to remain in their former domains, usually castles or other strongholds. They are further condemned to remember their crime in song on any night when the moon is full; few sounds are as terrifying as a death knight's chilling melody echoing through the moonlit countryside. Death knights are likely to attack any creature that interrupts their songs or trespasses in their domains

[Pokemaster]

Dragonlance Spoiler:

Lord Soth does atone at the end, lose the curse, and die a redeemed man. Of course, Weis and Hickman only did it to spite Ravenloft.

Also, the entry on death knights in Dragonlance Campaign Setting 3E says nothing about having to listen to songs. The sample death knight's description says nothing about him having to listen to songs every night.

The way I understood it, the curse Isolde put on Lord Soth was powerful enough to override the curse that bound him to Sithicus. I think it was in the 2E rules that any creature in Ravenloft could only have one curse placed on them at once, and the most powerful is the only one that could take effect. The Domain Lords were effectively immune to curses, since they basically carried the Ultimate Curse of Doom That Couldn't Ever Break Under Any Circumstances. Apparently, Soth's wife had enough bonuses on her curse check to beat it, so the Dark Powers had to throw Soth back on Krynn. I always thought it was pretty awesome that even the frickin' Demiplane of Dread didn't want anything to do with Lord Soth. (Although I don't have a timeline for the order in which the rules/books were written, so I can't say what was retconned and what was already there before Soth escaped.)

He did redeem himself in the War of Souls Trilogy though, which I thought was pretty lame.

[Assassinfox]

The way I understood it, the curse Isolde put on Lord Soth was powerful enough to override the curse that bound him to Sithicus. I think it was in the 2E rules that any creature in Ravenloft could only have one curse placed on them at once, and the most powerful is the only one that could take effect. The Domain Lords were effectively immune to curses, since they basically carried the Ultimate Curse of Doom That Couldn't Ever Break Under Any Circumstances. Apparently, Soth's wife had enough bonuses on her curse check to beat it, so the Dark Powers had to throw Soth back on Krynn. I always thought it was pretty awesome that even the frickin' Demiplane of Dread didn't want anything to do with Lord Soth. (Although I don't have a timeline for the order in which the rules/books were written, so I can't say what was retconned and what was already there before Soth escaped.)

He did redeem himself in the War of Souls Trilogy though, which I thought was pretty lame.

Spectre was a cool book, but it only happened because Weis and Hickman went "Waaaaaah! Stop using our character! Give him back!"

[holywhippet]

The way I understood it, the curse Isolde put on Lord Soth was powerful enough to override the curse that bound him to Sithicus. I think it was in the 2E rules that any creature in Ravenloft could only have one curse placed on them at once, and the most powerful is the only one that could take effect. The Domain Lords were effectively immune to curses, since they basically carried the Ultimate Curse of Doom That Couldn't Ever Break Under Any Circumstances. Apparently, Soth's wife had enough bonuses on her curse check to beat it, so the Dark Powers had to throw Soth back on Krynn. I always thought it was pretty awesome that even the frickin' Demiplane of Dread didn't want anything to do with Lord Soth. (Although I don't have a timeline for the order in which the rules/books were written, so I can't say what was retconned and what was already there before Soth escaped.)

He did redeem himself in the War of Souls Trilogy though, which I thought was pretty lame.


His redemption in the War of Souls seemed to ignore his time in Ravenloft though. There was nothing written that gave me the impression that he'd been there. I'm guessing the Weis and Hickman's minds he never went there at all. I suppose if you wanted to be picky, you'd have to ask how he stayed around even after the Gods left. He was made into Death Knight by divine magic which should have failed after the Gods went away.

There were other Death Knights in the video game Death Knights of Krynn - I don't recall their backgrounds ever being mentioned though.

While on the subject, I found this article about Heucuva's : http://mmadnd.chat.ru/MM00158.htm It says that they can't actually speak - they can only moan or wail - the one in the comic seems articulate enough.

[Innis Cabal]

i remember that show....now i feel very old....i see the death knight getting destroyed in personal combat with V, and you are aware thats a 2nd ed writting for it yes?

[Nerd-o-rama]

On the original subject. Sorta: No, no. See, we won't get into a big musical battle until the Order faces off against a high-level Devil. Then, just before he takes over the world, Elan challenges him to a rock-off.

"If we win, you have to take your sorry ass back to Hell./And also you will have to pay our re-ent."

[Assassinfox]

On the original subject. Sorta: No, no. See, we won't get into a big musical battle until the Order faces off against a high-level Devil. Then, just before he takes over the world, Elan challenges him to a rock-off.

"If we win, you have to take your sorry ass back to Hell./And also you will have to pay our re-ent."

But then the devil will cheat and claim that it won anyway. And then V will have to cast lightning bolt on it.

[Allandaros]

The Huecuva might be tougher. Kinda depends on what level they're both on. Kinda doubtful that the "Eye of Fear and more Fear" will be much of a threat.

Wait, what? Last I checked (which was admittedly 2nd Edition), Huecuvas (or Hecuevas, or what have you) are low-level monsters, providing about the same XP amount as an ogre. Tougher than a death knight? Surely not!

...unless times have changed and the heucuva is now second in power to the lich. In which case, I will sadly sigh, clutch my Monstrous Manual (no bloody I, II, III OR IV!) and trudge off into the night.

[Assassinfox]

Wait, what? Last I checked (which was admittedly 2nd Edition), Huecuvas (or Hecuevas, or what have you) are low-level monsters, providing about the same XP amount as an ogre. Tougher than a death knight? Surely not!

...unless times have changed and the heucuva is now second in power to the lich. In which case, I will sadly sigh, clutch my Monstrous Manual (no bloody I, II, III OR IV!) and trudge off into the night.

Well, it's a template that gets applied to a divine spellcaster. How powerful it ends up depends on the original creature.

[shaddy_24]

On Lord Soth:
I personally liked Lord Soth's final death. He had commited great evil and was punished for more than 300 years. He finally lost his will to fight. And he died as punishment from Takhisis for refusing to lead her army, so he even died opposing the greatest evil.

On Dragonlance Death Knights:
There was another death knight in the book Amber to Ashes. I can't recall his name, but he was punished for killing the son of a goddess, Zeboim, I think. I'm pretty sure he was killed by Mina at one point, so she could steal his soal for Chemosh, though I think the gods could bring him back to life as they chose. He was much weaker than Soth, so not all death knights are mad powerful.

[Jack Mann]

It's possible to get into the Blackguard prestige class without being a fallen Paladin. The benefits won't be as good though.

And do Death Knights still get Symbol and Power Word: Kill in 3.5E? I never managed to find the updated version.

Yeah, they still do. Only a few things changed about 'em. It's on page 31 of the update booklet.

[kpenguin]

Quick non-Lord-Soth question: Aren't deathknights supposed to be rotting corpses within their armor? The skeletal appearance of the pseudoXykon is probably a variant from Complete Plot, but I just wanted to point it out. This, of course, is just from my memory...

[jamroar]

Death Knights went under a big change from 2nd to third edition. In second edition they were fallen paladins cursed to undeath for their heinous acts until they attoned. In third edition, well shadowkire got it right.


That's because the second ed. entry itself was changed from 1st ed. to base the monster on the specific character of Lord Soth for some reason. Originally in the first ed. Fiend Folio, they were supposed to be undead warriors bound to the service of Demogorgon, which is closer to the current portrayal.