Need help looking for a prestige class that fits my character

[Michael7123]

I am currently playing a dread necromancer (from heroes of horror, in case you aren't familiar). The general gist of the class is that you can control lots and lots of undead at any given time, and can spontaneously cast a crapton of necromancy spells. At the moment, I am level 10.

Generally, dread necromancers are evil and depraved, but that's not how I'm roleplaying my character. He's true nuetral, somewhat leaning good. The sort version is that he was born with these supernatural abilities because his father was Sazzas Tam, the leader of Thay (in forgotten realms) and a extremely powerful lich. On top of this, he also has the "curse" of tomb tainted soul, which means he gets healed by negative energy, and harmed by positive energy. While from a gameplay perspective, this is an amazing feat for the class, my character regrades it as a curse, and it's made his life fairly miserable. As such, he is actively looking for a way to create a ritual to remove this curse, and remove a lot of his powers (that won't be for a while, this will be a LONG campaign.)

As of right now, my character is heading to a "destroyed" drow city in the underdark to rescue someone, but my character is also looking for a journal written by a drow mage that he believes will help him remove his curse.

With this in mind, do you have any prestige class ideas for my semi-repentant dread necromancer?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I'm AFB right now, and I don't recall how good dread necromancers are treated rules wise, but by text rainbow servant would make for an interesting development.

Most of the really good dread necromancer PrCs focus on the whole zombies and general undead powered army schtick.

[Michael7123]

I'm AFB right now, and I don't recall how good dread necromancers are treated rules wise, but by text rainbow servant would make for an interesting development.

Most of the really good dread necromancer PrCs focus on the whole zombies and general undead powered army schtick.

Rainbow servant? Is that what I think it is?

looks it up......

Yeah. I can't see my character doing that. Besides, he has to find a jungle temple of some deity that doesn't even exist in Faerun. Thanks for the sugestion though!

[nedz]

Rainbow servant? Is that what I think it is?

looks it up......

Yeah. I can't see my character doing that. Besides, he has to find a jungle temple of some deity that doesn't even exist in Faerun. Thanks for the sugestion though!

That's just fluff !

RS is a well known PrC choice for the following reasons:

Full casting 10/10: text trumps table
Bonus Domains = more spells known
The capstone ability (no, the second one) adds all cleric spells to your list


OK, having got that out of the way: Can you tell us more about your character please ?
E.g. Dread Witch works well for some DNs, but only if they are into causing fear

[LentilNinja]

How about Pale Master? Got plenty of Undead flavour, interesting class abilities and 9/10 casting.

[Michael7123]

That's just fluff !

RS is a well known PrC choice for the following reasons:

Full casting 10/10: text trumps table
Bonus Domains = more spells known
The capstone ability (no, the second one) adds all cleric spells to your list


OK, having got that out of the way: Can you tell us more about your character please ?
E.g. Dread Witch works well for some DNs, but only if they are into causing fear

More about my character: let's see....

1. His closest (adult) friend from his childhood was a cleric of some sort of agriculture Goddess , who also kept the closest thing the village had to a library. Once he found out about my characters curse by trying to heal some of my wounds after our village was destroyed by people looking for me, he and the rest of the survivors abandoned me with a bit of spare supplies. I was 14 at the time.

Suffice to say my character is not a big fan of clerics (he doesn't hate the gods themselves however, and he doesn't HATE clerics. He just has a bias against them by default).

2. He is actively trying to purge whatever traces of undeath are inside him, so any typical undead Prestiege class wouldn't appeal to him.

3. He is willing to use the animate dead spell, but only against people who deserve it (or animals). This roughly translates into the people we kill in combat. He was recently convinced not to use death knell, but this might change.

4. He knows celestial and draconic, and enjoys celestial so much he trained himself to start thinking in it. I am fully aware of the irony of a Necromancer speeking celestial.

5. The four major deities he worships are Mystra (NG magic), Kelevmore (LN death, who hates undead), Selune (CG the moon and nighttime, but NOT darkness), and Torm (LG God of Paladins. Converted by a friend, and he mainly just respects the God for being the one who killed Bane.).

6. He really enjoys books in general.

7. While willng to conjur intelligent undead (summon undead spell), he's not willing to create, say, a wight, from a human corpse. He doesn't want to face the risk of it falling out of his controll. This might change if his alignment really heads to the deep end, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

[Michael7123]

How about Pale Master? Got plenty of Undead flavour, interesting class abilities and 9/10 casting.

It's tempting, but my character wouldn't really do what's required to become a pale master. Thanks for the sugestion though.

[balegar]

A contemplative would seem to work, iirc it advances divine casting but you're dm may allow it to work for arcane casting. It seems like it would work fluff wise and it grants two domains.

[Urpriest]

How is your DM ruling the level 8 ability of Dread Necromancer? In particular, does it set your control pool proportional to your Dread Necromancer level, or leave it proportional to caster level?

[Michael7123]

A contemplative would seem to work, iirc it advances divine casting but you're dm may allow it to work for arcane casting. It seems like it would work fluff wise and it grants two domains.

I can't say I've heard of this class. What supplemental is it from?

[Demidos]

Sacred Exorcist -- helps protect people from possession.

On the other side of the spectrum,

Dread Witch -- fear debuffs galore!

Both can be goodish (Dread witch in that you make them run instead of killing them all, which sounds on par with your moral greyishness)


Though you told us alot about what your character isnt, what IS he? What would you like him to do? Without a better idea, its hard to tell. I would suggest checking out the wikipedia page on prestige classes though, it has a long list with descriptions, very helpful if you're just browsing.

[balegar]

I'm pretty sure complete divine.

[Michael7123]

How is your DM ruling the level 8 ability of Dread Necromancer? In particular, does it set your control pool proportional to your Dread Necromancer level, or leave it proportional to caster level?

By control pool, I assume you mean how many skellies and zombies I can control at a time ?

He actually significantly nerfed that. More or less, its up to his discretion to how much I can have at a time, but there isn't much of a chance that it will go above the amount of hit dye my character has. We're still working out the details.

[Michael7123]

Sacred Exorcist -- helps protect people from possession.

On the other side of the spectrum,

Dread Witch -- fear debuffs galore!

Both can be goodish (Dread witch in that you make them run instead of killing them all, which sounds on par with your moral greyishness)


Though you told us alot about what your character isnt, what IS he? What would you like him to do? Without a better idea, its hard to tell. I would suggest checking out the wikipedia page on prestige classes though, it has a long list with descriptions, very helpful if you're just browsing.

I've seen dread witch. That might work, but it just doesn't seem like it has enough payoff to not get the dread Necromancer abilities.

Sacred exposit,on the other hand, might fit my character very well. What handbook is that from again? I know I've heard of it.

As for what my character is?

...

That's kinda tricky.

Let's start with basics. He's a human (yay bonus feat). He doesn't know his biological mother. His necrological (is that even a word?) father is a litch with 20 wizard and 20 red wizard levels. How this exactly happened remains a mystery to him.

At the moment, he searching for a way to get rid of his "curse" (the quintessential dread Necromancer feat, tomb tainted soul). He's looking for a book of vile darkness, which he believes has some details of the curse. He's trying to reverse engineer it. I'm still working out a lot of details with my GM on what will happen if I actually manage to create whatever ritual is required.

In terms of a prestige class, I'd like to broaden my spellcasting abilities outside of the necromancy/death effect spells. I'd also be interested in any prestige classes that can counter clerics.

While we're at it , since I'm a human, don't I get to ignore multi classing penalties? I don't have to go into a prestige class, I could just take levels in another base class. (If I got that wrong, sorry).

[With a box]

I think there is a (cheesy) way to change one feat to another?
trade tomb tainted soul into something else

[Michael7123]

I think there is a (cheesy) way to change one feat to another?
trade tomb tainted soul into something else

Whenever I do complete this ritual, that's probably what will happen, but it's more fun to roleplay his quest for a cure.

Also, I should mention he's trying to figure out a reusable ritual, so it can be used on other people too. Not just himself.

[torrasque666]

That's just fluff !
Once you start saying that the Special requirements of a PrC is just fluff and free to be changed, where do you stop?

Unless you mean "change it to a setting suitable god". Seriously, ignoring the "fluffy" prereqs of something just so you can have your class is one of the most childish things I've seen.

[otakumick]

Once you start saying that the Special requirements of a PrC is just fluff and free to be changed, where do you stop?

Unless you mean "change it to a setting suitable god". Seriously, ignoring the "fluffy" prereqs of something just so you can have your class is one of the most childish things I've seen.

changing the special requirements of rainbow servant is actually covered under adaptations...

Honestly, rainbow servant fits fine with forgotten realms seeing as it isn't tied to any gods... merely to a specific creature from the monster manual... still the adaptations gives some maneuvering room... you could paint it as being a servant of a celestial serving mystra... change the granted domains to fit that while you were at it... however as it stands it seems to fit your goals in many ways... changing you from grimdark dead friend to rainbow life guy... however, changed to a more mystra/magic/realms centric fluff... would put you on the path to finding a magic solution to your"negative energy problem" (anyspell or miracle up a solution)

[Failed Phantasm]

Sacred exposit,on the other hand, might fit my character very well. What handbook is that from again? I know I've heard of it.

Sacred Exorcist can be found in Complete Divine (pg. 56–59).

[OldTrees1]

Well my favorite Undead Army prestige class is the Red Wizard of Thay. But it is too late for that now.


Lady/Lord of the Dead (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x)

[Michael7123]

Sacred Exorcist can be found in Complete Divine (pg. 56–59).

Thanks! I'll check it out later today and see what I think.

[Perturbulent]

Didn't see if someone mentioned it yet or not, but walker in the wastes can be nice.

[Amphetryon]

Once you start saying that the Special requirements of a PrC is just fluff and free to be changed, where do you stop?

Unless you mean "change it to a setting suitable god". Seriously, ignoring the "fluffy" prereqs of something just so you can have your class is one of the most childish things I've seen.

Who said anything about ignoring it? All nedz observed was that flavor text is distinct from rules text. Fluff, by its very nature, seems to necessitate being mutable enough to fit a given campaign's parameters. Is that observation truly 'one of the most childish things [you've] ever seen?'

[Telonius]

This suggestion might be a bit outside the box, but how about Blood Magus (from Complete Arcane)? The prerequisites are pretty bad (Two useless feats, and you must have been dead at some point). But, for the story of it ... your guy is really interested with getting rid of the undead portion of himself. So what's the thing that separates the living from the Undead? A heartbeat, blood pumping through the veins. If his research takes him that direction, it might fit. 8/10 casting (dead casting at levels 5 and 10), good Fort save, some interesting blood-themed abilities.

Another possibility would be a pretty simple, straightforward Loremaster. This might be an option if you already have a few metamagic feats. (You get the useless Skill Focus prerequisite feat back when you get the Applicable Knowledge Secret). It would go along with his interest in books and finding esoteric knowledge.

[torrasque666]

Who said anything about ignoring it? All nedz observed was that flavor text is distinct from rules text. Fluff, by its very nature, seems to necessitate being mutable enough to fit a given campaign's parameters. Is that observation truly 'one of the most childish things [you've] ever seen?'
90% of the time when someone says "its fluff" its then followed by "ignore it". Not "Talk with your DM about changing it." but outright "ignore it/its mutable." There's a difference between changing the non-rules text of a class to fit with a character and then to suggest changing the Special requirements part of the rules text. That is what I call childish. At least without asking for the DM's sayso. When suggesting it to a DM, there's a vast difference then when suggesting it to a player. Take for example Goliath Liberator. There are those here who would gladly advise ignoring that part about having to either free captives from giants or having escaped yourself. That's not flavor text, thats from actual rules text. But many here would gladly advise to ignore it.

[OldTrees1]

90% of the time when someone says "its fluff" its then followed by "ignore it". Not "Talk with your DM about changing it." but outright "ignore it/its mutable." There's a difference between changing the non-rules text of a class to fit with a character and then to suggest changing the Special requirements part of the rules text. That is what I call childish. At least without asking for the DM's sayso. When suggesting it to a DM, there's a vast difference then when suggesting it to a player. Take for example Goliath Liberator. There are those here who would gladly advise ignoring that part about having to either free captives from giants or having escaped yourself. That's not flavor text, thats from actual rules text. But many here would gladly advise to ignore it.

^Lots of stuff to agree with

Personally I agree with the DMG. Fluff Manipulation was described as a DM tool in the DMG.

[nedz]

Once you start saying that the Special requirements of a PrC is just fluff and free to be changed, where do you stop?

Unless you mean "change it to a setting suitable god". Seriously, ignoring the "fluffy" prereqs of something just so you can have your class is one of the most childish things I've seen.

Opinions differ, and it does depend upon the DM, but in principle fluff is mutable — either by the DM in specifying how something fits into their world or by the player with a creative back-story. If the DM isn't willing to change the fluff then they have, in effect, banned the class — which is fine; but a player writing a PrC off because of flavour text is silly: you should, at least, explore the options and talk to your DM.

[torrasque666]

Opinions differ, and it does depend upon the DM, but in principle fluff is mutable — either by the DM in specifying how something fits into their world or by the player with a creative back-story. If the DM isn't willing to change the fluff then they have, in effect, banned the class — which is fine; but a player writing a PrC off because of flavour text is silly: you should, at least, explore the options and talk to your DM.
However though, one must wonder that if once you start to ignore the Special requirements, where do you stop? Does the Exotic Weapon Master really need +6 BAB? Isn't +3 good enough? Does a Sacred Fist really need Combat Casting? Most casting isn't done in combat, but are buffs. Does an Elemental Warrior really needto have traveled to an Elemental Plane?

Now yes, most of them offer adaptations, like the Rainbow Servant, and that is a case where the cry of "its mutable" is understandable, but I have seen those who would ignore the Special Requirements for those classes that do not, like my above mentioned Goliath Liberator.

[Troacctid]

However though, one must wonder that if once you start to ignore the Special requirements, where do you stop? Does the Exotic Weapon Master really need +6 BAB? Isn't +3 good enough? Does a Sacred Fist really need Combat Casting? Most casting isn't done in combat, but are buffs. Does an Elemental Warrior really needto have traveled to an Elemental Plane?

Well that's where test-based prerequisites (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/testBasedPrerequisites.htm) come in, natch.

[nedz]

However though, one must wonder that if once you start to ignore the Special requirements, where do you stop? Does the Exotic Weapon Master really need +6 BAB? Isn't +3 good enough? Does a Sacred Fist really need Combat Casting? Most casting isn't done in combat, but are buffs. Does an Elemental Warrior really needto have traveled to an Elemental Plane?

Now yes, most of them offer adaptations, like the Rainbow Servant, and that is a case where the cry of "its mutable" is understandable, but I have seen those who would ignore the Special Requirements for those classes that do not, like my above mentioned Goliath Liberator.

Those requirements are not Fluff.

[torrasque666]

Those requirements are not Fluff.
Then what is? What is your definition for something being fluff? Where do you draw the line then?

[Ferronach]

If your character is unable to remove the taint from himself or you don't find a shiny PrC would your character be OK with using his powers to destroy/control those that are/would seek to become necromancer or other forms of "bad guys doing things with the dead"?

[Extra Anchovies]

Then what is? What is your definition for something being fluff? Where do you draw the line then?

Is it in the "requirements" subsection? If not, it isn't actually a requirement to qualify for the PrC. In the case of Rainbow Servant, you only need to find the couatl temples, not actually serve the couatls.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Then what is? What is your definition for something being fluff? Where do you draw the line then?

If it doesn't have quantifiable rules attached to it?

Also a couatl is an outsider, not a deity, so I am about 100% they exist in Faerun (you can summon them with SM XI).

[torrasque666]

If it doesn't have quantifiable rules attached to it?

Also a couatl is an outsider, not a deity, so I am about 100% they exist in Faerun (you can summon them with SM XI).
Ah but it does: did the player ever find the hidden temples out the couatls? If no, then they don't qualify. Sure, one can simply write it into their backstory, but that is the lazy way out. You could do some sort of a quest to enter it, but that would involve a DM who will cooperate. Point is, there is a quantifiable rule. Its binary, but most of the other rules for PrCs are such.

Side note: I don't think it takes an 11th level spell to summon a couatl.

[Thiyr]

However though, one must wonder that if once you start to ignore the Special requirements, where do you stop? Does the Exotic Weapon Master really need +6 BAB? Isn't +3 good enough? Does a Sacred Fist really need Combat Casting? Most casting isn't done in combat, but are buffs. Does an Elemental Warrior really needto have traveled to an Elemental Plane?

Now yes, most of them offer adaptations, like the Rainbow Servant, and that is a case where the cry of "its mutable" is understandable, but I have seen those who would ignore the Special Requirements for those classes that do not, like my above mentioned Goliath Liberator.

I think part of the difference is the nature of what the prerequisite's purpose is. For BAB, feats, etc, their purpose is generally to either gate entry of a class to a certain level range (you need to be above 6th level to get into EWM) or to lock in resources (Want to be the holiest facepuncher? part of that is gonna involve spending feats a certain way). These are quantifiable resources which are being thrown around. On the other hand, you have something like, say, Pyrokineticist. "Special: Must have set fire to a structure of any size just to watch it burn". Unlike the previous prerequisites, this lacks any impact on how the resources of the character are spent, and it isn't something that prevents you from taking the class earlier. It does, however, impact the personality of the character you're making. In this case, it means that if you want to use pyrokineticist, you need to be a pyromaniac. But if I wanted to make a character who was all about respecting and harnessing fire as a tool, to be used as an essential part of creation, I'd basically be locked out of a class that fits pretty dang well. And there's no real good way to change it, because it isn't a limiting factor for anything other than personality. Any change will have to amount to "Has used fire to burn something previously", which is hardly a requirement at all. So I find that is a "requirement" that is best ignored entirely. If you want to burn things just to watch, go for it, but don't make it "everyone must do this".

Similarly for Rainbow Servant, it requires you to find a hidden temple of the couatls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/couatl.htm). They aren't deities (and I'm surprised that hasn't been brought up yet), so basically it could be adapted to just about anything, to the point that you can almost tailor-craft the prereq to your character. It's not so much a limit as it is a descriptor, another way of trying to emphasize the alignment requirement. So I'm all for ignoring it (given DM acceptance), just with the understanding that so long as your character is actively trying to be Good, that's enough. Elemental Warrior's prereq seems more about inspiration than anything (given that you could choose fire after having gone to the plane of water), so again, so long as your character has some draw or tie to the elements, ignore away. Goliath Liberator is basically "fighting things bigger than you". Any kind of combat history with things larger than you, even in an amicable way, should cover that. Frankly, I don't even know why it's goliath-specific outside of the book it's from, so I'm down with ignoring that as well.

That said, all of my "ignore it" basically comes with the caveat of "you still need to explain your abilities to some degree", which is the only real purpose of those special prereqs, so I guess YMMV.

(P.S. Goliath Liberator actually does have an adaptation section as well, just so you know)

[Extra Anchovies]

Ah but it does: did the player ever find the hidden temples out the couatls? If no, then they don't qualify. Sure, one can simply write it into their backstory, but that is the lazy way out. You could do some sort of a quest to enter it, but that would involve a DM who will cooperate. Point is, there is a quantifiable rule. Its binary, but most of the other rules for PrCs are such.

You don't necessarily need backstory cop-outs or DM cooperation. Hire one of the other PCs to create a one-room temple to the couatls in some hidden location. Go and find it (might take a bit of searching). You have now found the hidden temple of the coutals. :smalltongue:

Yes, I know it doesn't work like that.

[torrasque666]

That said, all of my "ignore it" basically comes with the caveat of "you still need to explain your abilities to some degree", which is the only real purpose of those special prereqs, so I guess YMMV.

(P.S. Goliath Liberator actually does have an adaptation section as well, just so you know)
Honestly, if there were more here like that, I wouldn't have such a harsh view of the "its fluff, ignore it" mentality that pervades the forum. I can actually respect that. I honestly don't mind refluffing things, I don't like that so many here are willing to outright ignore it.I find it.... distasteful.

[nedz]

Side note: I don't think it takes an 11th level spell to summon a couatl.

Healers can get a Couatl. So just head for the nearest city and check out the hospitals.

[Michael7123]

If your character is unable to remove the taint from himself or you don't find a shiny PrC would your character be OK with using his powers to destroy/control those that are/would seek to become necromancer or other forms of "bad guys doing things with the dead"?

If there simply is no cure, he'd be pretty crushed emotionally. As for killing truly evil people with his powers, he's all for that already. He thinks most necromancers are terrible and should be killed.

If you are talking about the gameplay mechanic of taint. however, thats not being used in our campaign.

[Thiyr]

Honestly, if there were more here like that, I wouldn't have such a harsh view of the "its fluff, ignore it" mentality that pervades the forum. I can actually respect that. I honestly don't mind refluffing things, I don't like that so many here are willing to outright ignore it.I find it.... distasteful.

I think the big reason that's the mindset is kinda like what I said before, tho. Refluffing at that point is pretty much ignoring it. Like, for the pyromancer example, if you refluff the special req to something that fits your character, it takes no effort to fit in. So unless it's something that's already a part of the world or the DM wants as a group in-setting (to be an assassin you need to join the Black Severed Murder Hand Fun Club, or something), special reqs are either hamstrings on making a character that engages the player (by forcing them to play something they don't want to), or is something that is essentially not there (because it's something they wanted to do anyway). So rather than agonizing over "what does the player want to do anyway", it's easier shorthand to just say "ignore it". I basically have the naive hope that the people here are ignoring it in the pursuit of a better character experience, more than anything.

[Michael7123]

Regarding the PrC sacred exorcist:

I can't take it for 2 reasons:
1. It requres 10 ranks in Knowledge(planes). Thats not a class skill for the Dread Necromancer.
2. It requires good alignment. At the moment, I'm nuetral.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

[Extra Anchovies]

1. It requres 10 ranks in Knowledge(planes). Thats not a class skill for the Dread Necromancer.

Just enter SE after level 17.

[Michael7123]

Just enter SE after level 17.

Wouldn't that involve putting 20 skill points into that knowledge check then?

[Amphetryon]

Wouldn't that involve putting 20 skill points into that knowledge check then?

1. Blue text often indicates sarcasm around these parts.

2. No, it would involve investing skill points throughout your adventuring career; by the time you got above 17th level, you'd have invested 20 skill points in any skill you'd paid points into at every level up to then.

[Extra Anchovies]

1. Blue text often indicates sarcasm around these parts.

2. No, it would involve investing skill points throughout your adventuring career; by the time you got above 17th level, you'd have invested 20 skill points in any skill you'd paid points into at every level up to then.

Yes to both. Stack up those half-ranks, you'll get there eventually!

[Kelb_Panthera]

Regarding the PrC sacred exorcist:

I can't take it for 2 reasons:
1. It requres 10 ranks in Knowledge(planes). Thats not a class skill for the Dread Necromancer.
2. It requires good alignment. At the moment, I'm nuetral.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

1) Apprentice feat. It's in DMG 2 and while I don't remember which one, one of the apprenticeships you can choose to take up will grant you a knowledge skill of your choice as a class skill. Then you've just got to rank it up like normal. Remember that any skill that was -ever- a class skill for you has its maximum rank value permanently moved to your current level plus 3.

2) A one step alignment shift shouldn't be too difficult, especially given that you've already set yourself as an enemy to evil (apparently). Just gotta get over that necromancer prejudice. Not all necromancers are evil, undead spawning, grave robbing, magical psychos. Seek out the church of Wee Jas (or her faerunian equivalent). They'll teach you that necromancy isn't necessarily evil.

[torrasque666]

1) Apprentice feat. It's in DMG 2 and while I don't remember which one, one of the apprenticeships you can choose to take up will grant you a knowledge skill of your choice as a class skill. Then you've just got to rank it up like normal. Remember that any skill that was -ever- a class skill for you has its maximum rank value permanently moved to your current level plus 3.
Alternate ways include Education or even Knowledge Devotion. Sure Knowledge Devotion takes 5 ranks to qualify, but Education could even be taking a bonus to Arcana/Religion (for Magic/Undeadness) and Planes (Outsides would probably have some sort of knowledge in this regard)
BTW Education exists in just about any campaign setting book.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Alternate ways include Education or even Knowledge Devotion. Sure Knowledge Devotion takes 5 ranks to qualify, but Education could even be taking a bonus to Arcana/Religion (for Magic/Undeadness) and Planes (Outsides would probably have some sort of knowledge in this regard)
BTW Education exists in just about any campaign setting book.

I thought of education but it's first level only, IIRC, and I get the impression that the OP's character is already in play. If I'm wrong then education is definitely the better feat for the task.

[Michael7123]

1) Apprentice feat. It's in DMG 2 and while I don't remember which one, one of the apprenticeships you can choose to take up will grant you a knowledge skill of your choice as a class skill. Then you've just got to rank it up like normal. Remember that any skill that was -ever- a class skill for you has its maximum rank value permanently moved to your current level plus 3.

2) A one step alignment shift shouldn't be too difficult, especially given that you've already set yourself as an enemy to evil (apparently). Just gotta get over that necromancer prejudice. Not all necromancers are evil, undead spawning, grave robbing, magical psychos. Seek out the church of Wee Jas (or her faerunian equivalent). They'll teach you that necromancy isn't necessarily evil.

1. I'll look into it then.

2. But that's the problem. MY character does spawn undead. He doesn't like to but he feels that it's justifiable.

a. Nobody is getting hurt from it that wouldn't already be getting hurt by me (I'm using them to kill monsters that I was going to kill anyways.)
b. I'm using them for an objectively good purpose (getting rid of my curse, and trying to develop a ritural for those affected by it.

My character currently primarily worships Mystra, the Nuetral good goddess of magic. In all honesty, he probably would be nuetral good if it weren't for his raising undead and casting other spells with the [evil] descriptor.

[Kelb_Panthera]

1. I'll look into it then.

2. But that's the problem. MY character does spawn undead. He doesn't like to but he feels that it's justifiable.

a. Nobody is getting hurt from it that wouldn't already be getting hurt by me (I'm using them to kill monsters that I was going to kill anyways.)
b. I'm using them for an objectively good purpose (getting rid of my curse, and trying to develop a ritural for those affected by it.

My character currently primarily worships Mystra, the Nuetral good goddess of magic. In all honesty, he probably would be nuetral good if it weren't for his raising undead and casting other spells with the [evil] descriptor.

So knock it off for a while. A DN's spell list has some decent spells that have nothing to do with creating undead. Also note that -control- undead can get you minions to wield without casting an evil spell.

[Michael7123]

So knock it off for a while. A DN's spell list has some decent spells that have nothing to do with creating undead. Also note that -control- undead can get you minions to wield without casting an evil spell.


While from a gameplay perspective, that makes perfect sense, it really doesn't from a roleplay perspective. My character doesn't want to stop using an incredibly powerfull tool at his disposal as long as he has it, and other characters would find it hard to convince him to stop reanimating the dead for the sake of helping the party survive.

I could shrug this off in a combat focused campagin, but this campagin is incredibly roleplay heavy. We ended the last campagin by spending 30-45 minutes arguing about not killing an unconscious Orc. Out of a result of this, my character has been convinced to stop casting death knell (more or less leeches strength off unconscious people, killing them. Evil spell).

It's entirely possible that my character could be convinced to stop casting animate dead and the summon undead spells. But he has yet to hear an argument that has convinced him.

[Michael7123]

Also, regarding the sacred exorcist again. Beyond the incredibly high knowledge (planes) check and the alignment issue, I also need to have dispel evil or dismissal, and I have neither.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Also, regarding the sacred exorcist again. Beyond the incredibly high knowledge (planes) check and the alignment issue, I also need to have dispel evil or dismissal, and I have neither.

That's trickier but not by much. Arcane disciple (balance) gets you dismissal as a 4th level spell.

[Michael7123]

That's trickier but not by much. Arcane disciple (balance) gets you dismissal as a 4th level spell.

Wait, is this a feat or another prestige class? And from what source.

Also, since I've seen some debate about this, yes, this character is currently in use.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Wait, is this a feat or another prestige class? And from what source.

Also, since I've seen some debate about this, yes, this character is currently in use.

Feat, complete divine. You pick a cleric domain, balance in this case, and you add its spells to your class spell list with the caveat that you can only cast each of them once per day and must have a wisdom score high enough for them rather than your normal casting stat. As a dread necromancer having dismissal on your spell list at 4th level through this feat should be enough to qualify you for sacred exorcist. A strict DM -may- demand that you have a wisdom score of 14, either naturally or through a periapt of wisdom.

[torrasque666]

Feat, complete divine. You pick a cleric domain, balance in this case, and you add its spells to your class spell list with the caveat that you can only cast each of them once per day and must have a wisdom score high enough for them rather than your normal casting stat. As a dread necromancer having dismissal on your spell list at 4th level through this feat should be enough to qualify you for sacred exorcist. A strict DM -may- demand that you have a wisdom score of 14, either naturally or through a periapt of wisdom.
Note that your alignment must match that of the deity that you worship. So you actually do need to worship a deity in this instance.

Hmm.... it seems to imply that you'd be picking domains from your own deity, but nothing actually stipulates such. So theoretically you could be CE and take a domain belonging to Heironeous.

[Michael7123]

Feat, complete divine. You pick a cleric domain, balance in this case, and you add its spells to your class spell list with the caveat that you can only cast each of them once per day and must have a wisdom score high enough for them rather than your normal casting stat. As a dread necromancer having dismissal on your spell list at 4th level through this feat should be enough to qualify you for sacred exorcist. A strict DM -may- demand that you have a wisdom score of 14, either naturally or through a periapt of wisdom.

Wisdom was my dump stat (not very useful as dread necromancer), so its only 11 (we rolled for stats, I got nice rolls.) It is possible I could find something that would bump up my wisdom stat, but it would probably be wiser (pun intended) to give it to the party cleric. I might be able to buy a widom improving item after we get out of the underdark (or rather, if), but that will be quite a while from now.

[OldTrees1]

Note that your alignment must match that of the deity that you worship. So you actually do need to worship a deity in this instance.

Hmm.... it seems to imply that you'd be picking domains from your own deity, but nothing actually stipulates such. So theoretically you could be CE and take a domain belonging to Heironeous.

Addendum:
There are also domains that a patron deity does not have but fit that deity very well.

[Michael7123]

Note that your alignment must match that of the deity that you worship. So you actually do need to worship a deity in this instance.

Hmm.... it seems to imply that you'd be picking domains from your own deity, but nothing actually stipulates such. So theoretically you could be CE and take a domain belonging to Heironeous.

Not only would my DM not allow that, I wouldn't do that either. It's too cheesy for such a roleplay heavy campaign.

[ShurikVch]

Other possible PrCs:

Frost Mage (Frostburn) - death and cold... :smallwink: Full CL progression, and bunch of bonus spell known

Fiend-Blooded (Heroes of Horror) - your character is spontaneous arcane caster of a non-good alignment, so he fit in just well. PrC have full CL progression, and Fiendish Sorcery CF allow you to get spells outside of Dread Necromancer list

Mage of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane) - with his devotion to Mystra, this PrC is not unexpected. And Spellpool access... :smallwink:

Olin Gisir (Lost Empires of Faerûn) - dunno what race your PC, but if elf or half-elf, may check those PrC


1. It requres 10 ranks in Knowledge(planes). Thats not a class skill for the Dread Necromancer. Keeper of Forbidden Lore (Fiendish Codex 1) gives you Knowledge (the planes) as class skill, assuming you have Int 13


changing the special requirements of rainbow servant is actually covered under adaptations... Adaptations... :smallbiggrin:
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/046/e/6/rainbow_dash_motivational_by_crossoverprincess-d4ptrel.jpg

[Michael7123]

Other possible PrCs:

Frost Mage (Frostburn) - death and cold... :smallwink: Full CL progression, and bunch of bonus spell known

Fiend-Blooded (Heroes of Horror) - your character is spontaneous arcane caster of a non-good alignment, so he fit in just well. PrC have full CL progression, and Fiendish Sorcery CF allow you to get spells outside of Dread Necromancer list

Mage of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane) - with his devotion to Mystra, this PrC is not unexpected. And Spellpool access... :smallwink:

Olin Gisir (Lost Empires of Faerûn) - dunno what race your PC, but if elf or half-elf, may check those PrC

Keeper of Forbidden Lore (Fiendish Codex 1) gives you Knowledge (the planes) as class skill, assuming you have Int 13

Adaptations... :smallbiggrin:
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/046/e/6/rainbow_dash_motivational_by_crossoverprincess-d4ptrel.jpg

Ice mage: I've seen that one. It looks really cool, and I actually plan on making a character with that prestige class, but it's not really what I'm going for with Zandrux.

Fiend blooded: How dare you innsinuate my character is part fiend! He's only half-lich!
But really though, he isn't fiend blooded. Well, he probably has some fiend blood somewhere, considering he's deceded from a lot of people in Thay, where tieflings are somewhat more common than average. But honestly, one cursed bloodline is enough for him.

Mage of the Arcane Order: If my character gets back to Silverymoon in one piece, this could work very well. He's been doing lots of reaserch in a big mage college there, so this could make sense. I'll consider it.

Olin Gisir: Zandrux isn't an elf, he's a human.

Keeper of for in lore: (I assume this is a feat) this would work really well for my character, especially since he's tracking down a book of vile darkness.

[Telonius]

Any thoughts on the Blood Magus or Loremaster ideas? (No offense if not, just wanted to see if you saw the post in-between the rules debates).

[Michael7123]

Any thoughts on the Blood Magus or Loremaster ideas? (No offense if not, just wanted to see if you saw the post in-between the rules debates).

I didn't see them. Could you give me the books they're from and what they do?

[Amphetryon]

Having read through the thread a few times, I'm coming to the conclusion that you need to work with your DM to homebrew a PrC. You have essentially found a limiting factor in crunch, fluff, or current story arc in every suggestion made thus far that prohibits any of the suggestions from being precisely sufficient to your needs. Either work with your DM to change some of the fluff to better fit your current campaign, or work with your DM to create a new PrC that matches the concept you have in your head without the need for any additional adaptation.

[Failed Phantasm]

I didn't see them. Could you give me the books they're from and what they do?

Loremaster is from the Dungeon Master's Guide (pg. 191), but it's open content so it can also be found here on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/loremaster.htm).

Blood Magus is from Complete Arcane (pg. 26–30)


Though personally, I concur with Amphetryon.

[Michael7123]

Loremaster is from the Dungeon Master's Guide (pg. 191), but it's open content so it can also be found here on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/loremaster.htm).

Blood Magus is from Complete Arcane (pg. 26–30)


Though personally, I concur with Amphetryon.

Well blood od magus is off the table, as I haven't died yet.

As for Lore master, it doesn't seem worth it. The dread necromacer base is too good.

[nedz]

I'm not sure if we have pointed you at a DN handbook yet — here you go (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1096381) — that may provide some ideas.

[Michael7123]

I'm not sure if we have pointed you at a DN handbook yet — here you go (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1096381) — that may provide some ideas.

I've seen this before, but I haven't looked over it in a while. I'll reread it when I get the chance.

[atemu1234]

Once you start saying that the Special requirements of a PrC is just fluff and free to be changed, where do you stop?

Unless you mean "change it to a setting suitable god". Seriously, ignoring the "fluffy" prereqs of something just so you can have your class is one of the most childish things I've seen.

Also protected by the rules and yes, you can refluff.

[atemu1234]

Alternate ways include Education or even Knowledge Devotion. Sure Knowledge Devotion takes 5 ranks to qualify, but Education could even be taking a bonus to Arcana/Religion (for Magic/Undeadness) and Planes (Outsides would probably have some sort of knowledge in this regard)
BTW Education exists in just about any campaign setting book.

Where's knowledge devotion from?

[Michael7123]

I have two prestige class ideas in mind, and both might actually make sence for my character. All that remains is to see if they are actually worth while. But first, I need to explain some backstory and forestory (events that will probably happen later on in the campaign)

WARNING, I RAMBLE QUITE A BIT HERE.

My character is searching for a book of vile darkness in the underdark that used to be possessed by a powerfull drow sorceress. The city was allegedly destroyed 4 years ago in a terrible war known as "the dark wars.", but there have been rumors and whispers of activity coming from them again, hence why the rest of my group is heading into the underdark. As for me personaly, I'm in it for the evil tome (to reverse engineer the rtural to inflict tomb tainted soul) and the 10k GP we'll get if we come back alive.

I was thinking of a possible backstory for the drow sorceress (or even possibly another dread necromancer). Instead of being the typical drow chaotic evil, she was Nuetral evil, and worshiped Shar instead of Lolth. Of course, this had to be kept secret, but she managed to pull it off. She had to flee the city (or was killed, up to the DM I suppose) when it was destroyed, and left many of her reaserch notes behind while doing so.

Now, why does it matter that she worship a different deity?

Unbenonst to everyone else, the source of her strength was that she had figured out how to tap into the shadow weave. From a sheer gameplay perspective: using the shadow weave (for regular spells) requires a feat (form players guide to faerun). The user has to have either WIS 15, or worship Shar. In a nutshell, using the shadow weave would increase the save DC for her necromancy, illusion, and (I think) enchantment spells by +1, along with having some other effects.

TL;DR she figured out how to use shadow magic.

Now, on to the forestory and more relavent task at hand. Assuming all goes well (enough), my character will find this sorceress' old library and obtain a tome of vile darkness. In addition, my character likes to read quite a lot, but doesn't understand under common. Luckily for him, he has a bag of holding, so he'd probably fill the bag with as many of the books as it could hold.

Now back to the tome of vile darkness. It has one very interesting property: any nuetral character who reads it has to make a DC 13 will save, or become evil. If my DM wants this to be higher, I understand, because making a DC 13 will save is pretty easy for my character.

How I will roleplay this specifically is uncertain, but the way I see it, there are two possible routs for me to take when it comes to gameplay:

1. I make the saving throw.
I retain my true nuetral alignment, but have a bunch of books on shadowcasting. I multiclass into the shadow caster class from tome of magic, then prestige class into noctomancer (also tome of magic).

2. I fail my saving throw:
I become evil and start worshiping Shar. I take the shadow weave feat, and prestige class into shadow adept (the forgotten realms guide) as soon as possible.

What do you guys think of those? Also, Zandrux's character sheet is now in my sig, so y'all can check it out. I have been buffed by the party cleric, but most of those buffs (if not all) are effectively day-long spells that he casts on us every day.

[Failed Phantasm]

Where's knowledge devotion from?

Complete Champion (pg. 60)


EDIT: I'm only going to offer comment on this part:

I retain my true nuetral alignment, but have a bunch of books on shadowcasting. I multiclass into the shadow caster class from tome of magic, then prestige class into noctomancer (also tome of magic).

You may wish to read the Shadowcaster Handbook (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?268661-3-5-Pulvis-Et-Umbra-Sumus-The-Shadowcaster-Handbook), if you haven't already and don't have much practical experience with that subsystem.

That said, entering a dual-progression PrC at level 12 is a bit iffy from an optimization standpoint, to put it mildly: for a Shadowcaster theurge, you're ideally entering no later than level 5 by way of early-entry methods, such as with Dread Necromancer 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 1 + Noctumancer 9/Mystic Theurge 6. But your character's already level 10, so that's not an option.

For your situation, you're probably going to end up with a level 20 build of Dread Necromancer 10/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 7. Unfortunately, you'll just barely miss getting 9th level spells as a Dread Necromancer. It's certainly very flavorful and if you think it's both fitting for your character to pursue and suitable for the optimization level of your table, by all means consider it. You'll probably want to take the Practiced Spellcaster feat (Complete Arcana, pg. 82) for Dread Necromancer (and possibly for Shadowcaster, too), but low Shadowcaster CL might not be such a bad thing per se. There are useful utility Paths you could take where your CL doesn't matter as much: Dark Terrain, Ebon Roads, and Veil of Shadows — not so much shadow vision, but unveil is fantastic because of how many things it cures — come immediately to mind, as the Dread Necromancer lacks teleportation/mobility on its spell list and doesn't have much battlefield control, either. Extremely limited uses-per-day of your mysteries will probably hurt, though.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Several options available to you, depending on how you want to play your character.

Dread Witch lets you bypass immunities, which is good for a fear lockdown-based build.

Alternate Spell Source/Southern Magician would've been really handy, but I believe they can only be taken at level 1. If you can find a way to make your spells qualify as divine, you can use Divine Metamagic cheese. I particularly like Black Lore of Moil + DMM Persist + Aura of Terror (picked up at class level 12 as your advanced learning choice). Once combined with Dread Witch, it's pretty much 'everything within 15' is running away'.

Fear is not inherently evil, though. In fact, you can quite easily claim you are being merciful by making them run away and so actually saving their lives.

Bigger pets are more valuable than swarms of smaller pets, particularly bigger pets with plenty of attacks. The first time your GM throws a Hydra at you, raise that thing!

You can also pick up the Fell line of metamagic feats, combined with a Slaymate (Libris Mortis), School Specialization (Necromancy), and a few other metamagic reducing feats, it can get pretty obnoxious fairly rapidly. Black Lore of Moil can ensure that any necromancy spell also deals damage so it can also be used with the Fell line of spells to stack effects.

Unlike most base classes, Dread Necro is not inherently blessed with suck. There's nothing wrong with taking it all the way to Lichdom. Particularly not in a less optimized game.

[Michael7123]

Several options available to you, depending on how you want to play your character.

Dread Witch lets you bypass immunities, which is good for a fear lockdown-based build.

Alternate Spell Source/Southern Magician would've been really handy, but I believe they can only be taken at level 1. If you can find a way to make your spells qualify as divine, you can use Divine Metamagic cheese. I particularly like Black Lore of Moil + DMM Persist + Aura of Terror (picked up at class level 12 as your advanced learning choice). Once combined with Dread Witch, it's pretty much 'everything within 15' is running away'.

Fear is not inherently evil, though. In fact, you can quite easily claim you are being merciful by making them run away and so actually saving their lives.

Bigger pets are more valuable than swarms of smaller pets, particularly bigger pets with plenty of attacks. The first time your GM throws a Hydra at you, raise that thing!

You can also pick up the Fell line of metamagic feats, combined with a Slaymate (Libris Mortis), School Specialization (Necromancy), and a few other metamagic reducing feats, it can get pretty obnoxious fairly rapidly. Black Lore of Moil can ensure that any necromancy spell also deals damage so it can also be used with the Fell line of spells to stack effects.

Unlike most base classes, Dread Necro is not inherently blessed with suck. There's nothing wrong with taking it all the way to Lichdom. Particularly not in a less optimized game.

1. Regarding dread witch: does the immunity nullification get rid of the "creatures with 6 or more hit die bullcrap" that most fear spells suffer from?

Only downside of fear is that if they run away, I can't turn them into minions.

2.Already picked up specilization and greater specilization (necromancy). For metamagic, I picked up reach spell.

3. My character is actively trying to avoid becoming a litch

4. I'm waiting for the DM to throw a big monster at us. All I have at this point is a bunch of orcs to reanimate. Zandrux wouldn't keep a slay mate on him however. It's part of his personal code.

5. I'll have to look into black lore of moril.

6. Wait, there is a line of fell feats? I thought there was just one.

[Michael7123]

Complete Champion (pg. 60)


EDIT: I'm only going to offer comment on this part:


You may wish to read the Shadowcaster Handbook (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?268661-3-5-Pulvis-Et-Umbra-Sumus-The-Shadowcaster-Handbook), if you haven't already and don't have much practical experience with that subsystem.

That said, entering a dual-progression PrC at level 12 is a bit iffy from an optimization standpoint, to put it mildly: for a Shadowcaster theurge, you're ideally entering no later than level 5 by way of early-entry methods, such as with Dread Necromancer 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 1 + Noctumancer 9/Mystic Theurge 6. But your character's already level 10, so that's not an option.

For your situation, you're probably going to end up with a level 20 build of Dread Necromancer 10/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 7. Unfortunately, you'll just barely miss getting 9th level spells as a Dread Necromancer. It's certainly very flavorful and if you think it's both fitting for your character to pursue and suitable for the optimization level of your table, by all means consider it. You'll probably want to take the Practiced Spellcaster feat (Complete Arcana, pg. 82) for Dread Necromancer (and possibly for Shadowcaster, too), but low Shadowcaster CL might not be such a bad thing per se. There are useful utility Paths you could take where your CL doesn't matter as much: Dark Terrain, Ebon Roads, and Veil of Shadows — not so much shadow vision, but unveil is fantastic because of how many things it cures — come immediately to mind, as the Dread Necromancer lacks teleportation/mobility on its spell list and doesn't have much battlefield control, either. Extremely limited uses-per-day of your mysteries will probably hurt, though.

Thanks for the advice. I'll certainly give that guide a look.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

1. Regarding dread witch: does the immunity nullification get rid of the "creatures with 6 or more hit die bullcrap" that most fear spells suffer from?

Only downside of fear is that if they run away, I can't turn them into minions.

2.Already picked up specilization and greater specilization (necromancy). For metamagic, I picked up reach spell.

3. My character is actively trying to avoid becoming a litch

4. I'm waiting for the DM to throw a big monster at us. All I have at this point is a bunch of orcs to reanimate. Zandrux wouldn't keep a slay mate on him however. It's part of his personal code.

5. I'll have to look into black lore of moril.

6. Wait, there is a line of fell feats? I thought there was just one.

Answers, in order.

1. Nope. That being said, the class has means to add fear to other spells. Plus, only a few spells have that HD limit.

2. Not bad choices, but it does lock you out of some feats without retraining.

3. This seems like another reason to go with Fiendblooded. Yes, you've got some zombie in you, but considering Thay as a nation plus your own interests into the Book of Vile Darkness, becoming a fiend sounds like another character appropriate action. Especially if you fail the saving throw to become evil.

5. Black Lore of Moil is another feat out Complete Arcane. The quick and dirty is you spend some money making special bones that may be consumed when you cast a necromancy spell to add extra damage to said spell. It has its uses, but I am personally not a fan.

6. The Fell X feats are from Libris Mortis. Frighten makes things shaken, Weaken gives a strength penalty, drain slaps the target with a negative level, and animate raises things killed by it as undead. Frighten and Drain are the clear winners on the list. Typically you toss either (or both!) onto a low level multi-target spell to hit a large group of enemies with the effects. The gold standard is magic missile, which is sadly not on your spell list.

[Michael7123]

Answers, in order.

1. Nope. That being said, the class has means to add fear to other spells. Plus, only a few spells have that HD limit.

2. Not bad choices, but it does lock you out of some feats without retraining.

3. This seems like another reason to go with Fiendblooded. Yes, you've got some zombie in you, but considering Thay as a nation plus your own interests into the Book of Vile Darkness, becoming a fiend sounds like another character appropriate action. Especially if you fail the saving throw to become evil.

5. Black Lore of Moil is another feat out Complete Arcane. The quick and dirty is you spend some money making special bones that may be consumed when you cast a necromancy spell to add extra damage to said spell. It has its uses, but I am personally not a fan.

6. The Fell X feats are from Libris Mortis. Frighten makes things shaken, Weaken gives a strength penalty, drain slaps the target with a negative level, and animate raises things killed by it as undead. Frighten and Drain are the clear winners on the list. Typically you toss either (or both!) onto a low level multi-target spell to hit a large group of enemies with the effects. The gold standard is magic missile, which is sadly not on your spell list.

1. Huh. I'll have to give dread witch another look then.

2. Wait, what feats am I locked out of? The spell specilization seemed like a no-brainer, since that comprises 80% or more of my spells.

3. If my character does become evil, fiend blooded might certainly become an option. Whoever, I was thinking of going into shadow adept (Start worshiping Shar, and get the Shadow Magic feat at level 12). But becoming a fiend now? My character would be repulsed by that. In fact, I refuesd to get a familiar specifially because all of the Dread Necromancer familiars are fiends (as an added bonus, I took the loner flaw. Yay extra feat). My character has enough trouble keeping himself relatively good, the last thing he needs is a literal devil on his shoulder. '

I just think that if my character would avoid having a fiend as a familiar, he wouldn't really wannt to be one himself. Then again, if I turn evil, all bets are off.


5. I saw black lore of moril. It looks neat, but kinda pricey. I'm pretty sure I could get a better feat.

6. Those sound like awesome feats, but I'm not sure what I would put them on. Interestingly enough, most of my spells don't do hit point damage. Can these be slapped onto spells that do ability damage?

[Sith_Happens]

2. But that's the problem. MY character does spawn undead. He doesn't like to but he feels that it's justifiable.

a. Nobody is getting hurt from it that wouldn't already be getting hurt by me (I'm using them to kill monsters that I was going to kill anyways.)
b. I'm using them for an objectively good purpose (getting rid of my curse, and trying to develop a ritural for those affected by it.

My character currently primarily worships Mystra, the Nuetral good goddess of magic. In all honesty, he probably would be nuetral good if it weren't for his raising undead and casting other spells with the [evil] descriptor.

Just go out of your way to do lots of Good things at every opportunity and make sure with your DM that it's possible for that to outweigh your [Evil] casting enough to actually push you into Good.

[Michael7123]

Just go out of your way to do lots of Good things at every opportunity and make sure with your DM that it's possible for that to outweigh your [Evil] casting enough to actually push you into Good.

I might have a problem with that in the near future. While I did agree with the party cleric to let an unconscious Orc live (reluctantly,I was kinda guilted into it). However, the party cleric lied to us after casting a future-seing spell seeing if this would have any negative repercussions. My character doesn't know this yet, but if he finds out, that's going to knock him down the alignment pool a bit.

I will talk to my DM about having a good alignment. I have to admit my character is effecitively Nuetral good, with the exception of the reanimation and conjuring spells. I could make the argument that since Mystra (a NG deity of all standard magic) hasn't done anything to prevent the use of necromanc spells, she doesn't inheritly have a problem with them? At least, if they are used for a good cause.

[Sith_Happens]

I could make the argument that since Mystra (a NG deity of all standard magic) hasn't done anything to prevent the use of necromanc spells, she doesn't inheritly have a problem with them? At least, if they are used for a good cause.

The canonical reason is that she actually did try that sort of thing once and it ended badly.

[Michael7123]

The canonical reason is that she actually did try that sort of thing once and it ended badly.

What happened?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

What happened?

If I recall the timing correctly, the then-God of Death Jergal had a problem with her doing such.


As for my earlier "locked out" comment, I merely meant you couldn't have other feats at those levels not that you couldn't later take other feats.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Black Lore of Moil is used to be able to make spells that don't do damage, such as fear spells, able to do damage and thus apply a Fell effect, such as Fell Frighten or Fell Drain. It's not intended to apply damage, it is intended to start stacking fear effects to make opponents start Cowering or start stacking negative levels until they just fall over dead. Do keep in mind that the fell effect has no save permitted.

Depending on your alignment, you may wish to consider an alternately aligned paladin. A couple level dip would net you some BAB and more importantly your casting stat to all your saves. Needs to not be neutral, though. This would let you get into a more 'gish'-based build using something like Spellsword dip into one of several PrC's. Alternately, you can check out Ur Priest, then go into Mystic Theurge. You can still get 9th level spells on both sides that way.

Dipping into Sandshaper nets you a whole plethora of spells added to your list, which you then spontaneously cast from. Some of the later abilities can also be useful if it makes sense for your character's personality.

Arcane Disciple is a pretty fun feat because it gives you access to a domain's worth of spells. Normally it's too limited to really make use of, but since a Dread Necro spontaneously casts off of his full spell list, and it adds the spells to your spell list, you get to bypass the restrictions on the feat. This is a great way to get some useful spells. For example, the Travel domain nets you a lot of transportation spells like Teleport, which lets you be the Party Taxi Cab.

You may wish to pick up Empowered, which is useful when combined with Enervation. What is more fun than 1d4 negative levels? 1d4*1.5 negative levels! Split Ray is another good feat to throw on Enervation. If you are wanting to start throwing around negative levels, this might be a really good way to do so. And unless you start dealing with a lot of undead (in which case, you start Rebuking and Commanding), negative levels are a pretty serious nerf-bat plus possible insta-gib if they get too many.

[Michael7123]

Black Lore of Moil is used to be able to make spells that don't do damage, such as fear spells, able to do damage and thus apply a Fell effect, such as Fell Frighten or Fell Drain. It's not intended to apply damage, it is intended to start stacking fear effects to make opponents start Cowering or start stacking negative levels until they just fall over dead. Do keep in mind that the fell effect has no save permitted.

Depending on your alignment, you may wish to consider an alternately aligned paladin. A couple level dip would net you some BAB and more importantly your casting stat to all your saves. Needs to not be neutral, though. This would let you get into a more 'gish'-based build using something like Spellsword dip into one of several PrC's. Alternately, you can check out Ur Priest, then go into Mystic Theurge. You can still get 9th level spells on both sides that way.

Dipping into Sandshaper nets you a whole plethora of spells added to your list, which you then spontaneously cast from. Some of the later abilities can also be useful if it makes sense for your character's personality.

Arcane Disciple is a pretty fun feat because it gives you access to a domain's worth of spells. Normally it's too limited to really make use of, but since a Dread Necro spontaneously casts off of his full spell list, and it adds the spells to your spell list, you get to bypass the restrictions on the feat. This is a great way to get some useful spells. For example, the Travel domain nets you a lot of transportation spells like Teleport, which lets you be the Party Taxi Cab.

You may wish to pick up Empowered, which is useful when combined with Enervation. What is more fun than 1d4 negative levels? 1d4*1.5 negative levels! Split Ray is another good feat to throw on Enervation. If you are wanting to start throwing around negative levels, this might be a really good way to do so. And unless you start dealing with a lot of undead (in which case, you start Rebuking and Commanding), negative levels are a pretty serious nerf-bat plus possible insta-gib if they get too many.

I can't take the alternate paladins, I'm true nuetral, for now at least.

Empowered is nice in theory but there are usually spells that do a better job at two levels up than a spell with empowered. I can't even use eneveration with empowered now.

Sandshaper? Is that from sand storm?

Arcane disciple might be good with my character, but wisdom is my dump stat, sitting at 11.

Black lore of moril looks okay, but the gold cost is kind of steep. Besides, my character wouldn't really want to research.

[ShurikVch]

Shackled City adventure path have Death Frost Spell [Metamagic] feat, which add 2d6 cold damage to any necromantic spell

Spell Compendium have spell Aura of Terror. It's a 6th level Wiz/Sorc spell, but, because it's a Necromancy, you can pick it with Advanced learning. This spell last min./level. It will shaken enemies withing 30' of you; but it also have a special effect: if you have a Frightful Presence or Fear Aura (Dread Nec. 5 :smallwink:), it will instead 1) widen radius by 10', 2) +2 to save DC, 3) affected creatures are not shaken, but frightened

So, Death Frost Fell Frighten Aura of Terror: enemies within 15' of you will take 2d6 cold damage and become frightened without a save (and, if you go Dread Witch, without a fear immunity)

[Michael7123]

Shackled City adventure path have Death Frost Spell [Metamagic] feat, which add 2d6 cold damage to any necromantic spell

Spell Compendium have spell Aura of Terror. It's a 6th level Wiz/Sorc spell, but, because it's a Necromancy, you can pick it with Advanced learning. This spell last min./level. It will shaken enemies withing 30' of you; but it also have a special effect: if you have a Frightful Presence or Fear Aura (Dread Nec. 5 :smallwink:), it will instead 1) widen radius by 10', 2) +2 to save DC, 3) affected creatures are not shaken, but frightened

So, Death Frost Fell Frighten Aura of Terror: enemies within 15' of you will take 2d6 cold damage and become frightened without a save (and, if you go Dread Witch, without a fear immunity)

Wait, that feat adds cold damage to ALL necromancy spells, not just ones that normally do damage?

How many levels does it bump up the spell?

[ShurikVch]

Wait, that feat adds cold damage to ALL necromancy spells, not just ones that normally do damage? In-text example of use is a Ghoul Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ghoulTouch.htm) - spell which is, by itself, do no damage


How many levels does it bump up the spell? One level higher

[Michael7123]

In-text example of use is a Ghoul Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ghoulTouch.htm) - spell which is, by itself, do no damage

One level higher

Does it still do damage even if the victims succeed a saving throw for other types of damage?

Becuase if so, that would lead to some very powerful abilities.

[ShurikVch]

Does it still do damage even if the victims succeed a saving throw for other types of damage?

Becuase if so, that would lead to some very powerful abilities. Successful negating save also prevent an extra damage, and save for half halving it

But number of spells allow no save, such as Waves of Fatigue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wavesOfFatigue.htm), Ray of Enfeeblement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfEnfeeblement.htm), or Deathwatch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathwatch.htm)

[Michael7123]

Successful negating save also prevent an extra damage, and save for half halving it

But number of spells allow no save, such as Waves of Fatigue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wavesOfFatigue.htm), Ray of Enfeeblement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfEnfeeblement.htm), or Deathwatch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathwatch.htm)

Oh I can do sooo much evil with this! MUAHAHAHA! :xykon:

Ahem.

I mean,

I will use my powers for the forces of good and light!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oh I can do sooo much evil with this! MUAHAHAHA! :xykon:

Ahem.

I mean,

I will use my powers for the forces of good and light!

You can combo this with the feat Piercing Cold for a +1SL adjustment that allows cold damage to bust immunities. It's from Frostburn, has no prerequsites, and if you are using Cold damage to apply effects, it works wonders. Or you can just do the same thing with Black Lore of Moil without needing an extra metamagic feat since only undead are not taking damage from negative energy, and you have other ways of dealing with that threat. Or rather, opportunity. Remember, any undead who shows up to attack the party is really applying for position as your new minion. If it is too big to Rebuke/Command, there's a spell called Command Undead that works wonders.

Also, the spell Kelgore's Grave Mist is a No SR No Save area effect spell which deals cold damage as a 2nd level spell. Very useful for applying Fell feats.

There's also Lord of the Uttercold feat which lets cold-based spells deal half their damage as negative energy, which can also be really useful. For example, basic Skeletons heal from negative energy and are immune to cold, so you are healing your pets and doing damage to everything else. Even if you get caught in it, the negative energy damage will heal you as much as you take from cold, making it a net sum zero.

Also, Corpsecrafter makes your minions a bit more beefy (the bonus hit points stack, at least), but it is really the gateway to Destructive Retribution. Basically, when you pet dies, it blows up dealing negative energy damage in an area effect.

[Michael7123]

You can combo this with the feat Piercing Cold for a +1SL adjustment that allows cold damage to bust immunities. It's from Frostburn, has no prerequsites, and if you are using Cold damage to apply effects, it works wonders. Or you can just do the same thing with Black Lore of Moil without needing an extra metamagic feat since only undead are not taking damage from negative energy, and you have other ways of dealing with that threat. Or rather, opportunity. Remember, any undead who shows up to attack the party is really applying for position as your new minion. If it is too big to Rebuke/Command, there's a spell called Command Undead that works wonders.

Also, the spell Kelgore's Grave Mist is a No SR No Save area effect spell which deals cold damage as a 2nd level spell. Very useful for applying Fell feats.

There's also Lord of the Uttercold feat which lets cold-based spells deal half their damage as negative energy, which can also be really useful. For example, basic Skeletons heal from negative energy and are immune to cold, so you are healing your pets and doing damage to everything else. Even if you get caught in it, the negative energy damage will heal you as much as you take from cold, making it a net sum zero.

Also, Corpsecrafter makes your minions a bit more beefy (the bonus hit points stack, at least), but it is really the gateway to Destructive Retribution. Basically, when you pet dies, it blows up dealing negative energy damage in an area effect.

Regarding the last paragraph: I have already discovered the joys of corpsecrafter, especially when stacked with the buff that zombies and skeletons already get from dread Necromancer. I invested into the feat that has them do cold damage with each attack rather than destructive retribution because I don't want to bomb my allies with negative energy on a regular basis.