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Tyrael
2007-03-27, 01:13 AM
Hello, all. Having just gotten my hands on the Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, I was mightily inspired by some of the items available in it to try to make our own homebrew d20 versions. Upon perusal, however, I realized that the Rod of Ropes (Complete Scoundrel) is effectively a Hookshot, so that's out. However, there's a nifty new item called the Ball and Chain. Like the name implies, it's a gigantic solid iron ball about the size of someone's entire upper body, which is at the end of a long chain. This thing does massive damage to enemies and shatters through walls, but Link is immobile while swinging it around (with two hands) and walks very slowly while carrying it.

d20-ized, I'm thinking something like:

Exotic Weapon
Ball and Chain: 2d8 Bludgeoning chain weapon, 20 ft. reach, x3 critical, 60 lbs.
This is a massive iron ball situated at the end of a long chain. The weight is whirled around one's head to build momentum, and then launched with devastating results. Those with Exotic Weapon proficiency may use it with one hand, but the Ball and Chain may not be dual-wielded. The weight is launched as a standard action, and it takes a move action to retract it.


What do you guys think?


Edit: To throw a thought out there, my DM suggested a possible attack bonus of some sort, since it's so big and heavy that it simply smashes through most defenses. Or would that be a damage bonus, to slam through DR?

Zincorium
2007-03-27, 03:53 AM
I'd say it's a bad idea as statted. Yes, it has penalties to balance out it's negatives, but it's still a 2d8, x3 one handed melee weapon. Heck, you can wield it with both hands for a x2 strength bonus via exotic weapon master. The problem is that this is a bit too unrealistic for a completely mundane weapon, were this a magical item I can see it, but as it is I would advise the DM against it.

Quietus
2007-03-27, 05:59 AM
I'd have the following :

Two-handed weapon, 60 lbs, 20 foot reach
2d8 + 1 1/2 str, x2 crit
Full round action to attack with it (since you have to swing it around your head to build momentum, though it doesnt' draw AoO's, since no one wants to get that close to a swinging 60 pound ball)
Naturally applies strength to ranged attack rolls instead of dex.
Attacks as a touch attack, but takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls due to being extremely unweildy. If still within a light load while weilding this weapon, this is reduced to -2.


That way, the stronger, less dextrous characters can use their higher strength to "punch through" armor, instead of trying to place the shot where it'll hurt. It's an interesting weapon, and most fighters could make use of it, but the feat cost to use it well (that -8 would hurt, even if it IS a touch attack) would force them to stop and think for a bit. In early levels, it would probably prove quite powerful, but at higher levels it would end up being slightly overshadowed by the multiple attacks of other weapons, excepting situations where you NEED to go against that touch AC.

Variable Arcana
2007-03-27, 09:00 AM
Definitely not a non-magical weapon.

An iron ball the size of an upper torso? Call it 2 1/2' in diameter -- that's (whips out calculator...) 4006 pounds of iron. That's not a flail, it's a wrecking ball.

It would require a 32 strength just to lift the thing off the ground, a 37 strength to carry it... much less wield it effectively...

Definitely needs to be a magical weapon.

Jason Va hater
2007-03-27, 12:44 PM
if the 60lb ball of doom is not all that work able how about something like the ball and chain that Gogo had in Kill Bill? What stats would you give that

Quietus
2007-03-27, 01:53 PM
They have that statted somewhere, can't remember where... Meteor Hammer?

Indon
2007-03-27, 01:57 PM
In early levels, it would probably prove quite powerful, but at higher levels it would end up being slightly overshadowed by the multiple attacks of other weapons, excepting situations where you NEED to go against that touch AC.

Allow another feat (with a str requirement of like, 20, and maybe an additional BAB requirement) to be able to use the weapon like any other weapon? Yes, that escalates it to a 2-feat investment, but it is a very good weapon with its' reach and the second feat would allow for such tricks as AOO's with the weapon. If anything, that makes the weapon a touch too potent...

Tyrael
2007-03-27, 03:38 PM
I'd have the following :

Two-handed weapon, 60 lbs, 20 foot reach
2d8 + 1 1/2 str, x2 crit
Full round action to attack with it (since you have to swing it around your head to build momentum, though it doesnt' draw AoO's, since no one wants to get that close to a swinging 60 pound ball)
Naturally applies strength to ranged attack rolls instead of dex.
Attacks as a touch attack, but takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls due to being extremely unweildy. If still within a light load while weilding this weapon, this is reduced to -2.


That way, the stronger, less dextrous characters can use their higher strength to "punch through" armor, instead of trying to place the shot where it'll hurt. It's an interesting weapon, and most fighters could make use of it, but the feat cost to use it well (that -8 would hurt, even if it IS a touch attack) would force them to stop and think for a bit. In early levels, it would probably prove quite powerful, but at higher levels it would end up being slightly overshadowed by the multiple attacks of other weapons, excepting situations where you NEED to go against that touch AC.

This is very interesting. I'm not sure I'm 100% keen on the full-round action to use it though. Our campaign is level 9 at the moment, and sacrificing those extra attacks per round is a rather nasty blow, as the party's meat shield.

But to be honest, I can't think of any way to use this thing multiple times per round. Even with a gigantic hammer, you swing it, then change the direction of the momentum to come around and swing again. But with the ball and chain...you whirl this thing around your head (maybe doing bludgeoning damage to those in a 5-foot radius?) and launch it forward, it sails out 20 feet and smacks an armored blackguard. Okay, now the big iron wrecking ball is lying on the ground. How the heck do you attack again with this thing in under 6 seconds? Even with 26 strength, it's a lot of momentum to get going and even more momentum to stop or reverse.

daggaz
2007-03-27, 05:50 PM
I like quietus' stats on it except it should defnitely be x3 crit multiplier, and it definitely has to be magical, and finally, a character should need a minimum strength of like 18 to wield the damn thing (buffs and magic item enhancements acceptable). Also, you should lose your dex bonus to AC (if any) for the round if you attack with it.

With an extra feat (perhaps weapon specialization or focus), you could give this thing the knockdown ability.

Think of this thing in the hands of an ogre.... mmmm.....

Innis Cabal
2007-03-27, 05:52 PM
i created one of these for a gladiator game my buddy ran. As base it was a 1d10 blud with 10 foot reach, an attack granted an AoO. Needed a str of 14

Aramil Liadon
2007-03-28, 03:09 PM
Personally, from a catgirl-hater's perspective, just no. But the gear device... that was cool. If you really want this item, though, I'd say it takes 2 full-round actions to start it moving and one to stop (or throw it, automatically missing and using the miss-by rules, missing by 5 feet, or 1d4x5 if nonproficient), and you can move at a speed of 5ft/round, automatically hitting anything in a 10ft radius. Also, rules for an automatic bullrush on a hit? It would be sweet to bat a fighter into an archer, killing both. Also to throw a bullrushing item into the ranks of a kobold army and watching it cut a swath in their formation, then continue rolling into the lake.

Tyrael
2007-03-28, 06:14 PM
I did some more discussion with my DM. This is the build we came up with:

Two-handed Exotic Weapon: Ball and Chain(Knockback)
2d8 damage, 20/x3 critical, 20 ft reach, 60 lbs.

To use, this weapon must be whirled over the head as a full-round action to build momentum. Once the weapon is whirling, any enemy that comes within 5 ft provokes an AoO. An enemy that closes with a 5-foot step must make a Reflex save (DC 17) or provoke an AoO. Upon a successful hit (either from whirling or from a launch), the enemy must make a Fort save (DC 19 + 1/2 STR bonus) or be knocked back 10 feet.

The ball is launched as a standard action. Upon a successful ranged Knockback, the ball continues on in a line up to its maximum range, hitting as many targets as lie within its area of effect. The first target to successfully resist the Knockback causes the ball to simply fall to the ground.

Once the ball is launched, a move action retrieves it, whereupon another full-round action is needed to build momentum again.

Exarch
2007-03-28, 06:35 PM
There's a few ways you could approach the attack angle on this beast. You could get rid of the extra attacks based on BAB because, after all, it is a huge ball. But in return for that, you could have it do massive damage (3d8 or something). You could also make it just a touch attack, since I really don't see armor being a huge help against something like this.

Or you could make it 2d8, whatever Crit you want, and have the initial attack take a full round action, then after that you would have mommentum and be able to make regular attacks as normal. Or you could have it attack everything in a circle pattern, since that's basically how you're swinging it. Maybe have it auto-bullrush people too.

The idea for it is interesting.

Jayabalard
2007-03-28, 06:48 PM
Definitely not a non-magical weapon.

An iron ball the size of an upper torso? Call it 2 1/2' in diameter -- that's (whips out calculator...) 4006 pounds of iron. That's not a flail, it's a wrecking ball.

It would require a 32 strength just to lift the thing off the ground, a 37 strength to carry it... much less wield it effectively...

Definitely needs to be a magical weapon.I'm curious how you calculated that, as my answer differs by quite a bit; I assumed a 15" radius (2.5 feet diameter) which is ~20358 cubic inches of; cast iron (http://www.precisionballs.com/ball_weight_and_density.html) is ~0.26 lbs per cubic inch, for a total weight of = 5292 lbs.

Zincorium
2007-03-28, 06:59 PM
There's a few ways you could approach the attack angle on this beast. You could get rid of the extra attacks based on BAB because, after all, it is a huge ball. But in return for that, you could have it do massive damage (3d8 or something). You could also make it just a touch attack, since I really don't see armor being a huge help against something like this.

Or you could make it 2d8, whatever Crit you want, and have the initial attack take a full round action, then after that you would have mommentum and be able to make regular attacks as normal. Or you could have it attack everything in a circle pattern, since that's basically how you're swinging it. Maybe have it auto-bullrush people too.

The idea for it is interesting.

Right. This is an exotic weapon, all it costs is a single feat. It wouldn't seem to be that expensive. Giving it the special abilities that it has is probably too much, there's no need whatsoever to add more abilities.

While it's logical that this wouldn't be stopped by armor, it's also logical that no one would be able to wield a 60 pound weight on a chain at all. So if you're going to kill catgirls you've picked a bad place to start.

Seriously, balance this against other exotic weapons, and it's way overpowered. That at the very least should tell you that something is seriously, seriously wrong. It's doing damage equivalent to a large greataxe, it has 20 feet of reach, it can use AoO's on people who wouldn't normally provoke one, it knocks people down, and it can affect multiple people. Yes, it has drawbacks in terms of actions, but the acid test applies.

If this is in your game, why wouldn't people use it? If you have to come up with specific situations for it to not be the best weapon of all time, it's too good.

Exarch
2007-03-28, 07:30 PM
Perhaps it is strong. However, if I undertook my ideas I'd change it a bit. Something to 10ft range, can't hit anyone in that first 5" radius. I personally like the idea of a full round attack for the first hit, and then afterwards you can attack normally...maybe a penalty to movement. I think it's smarter to make it a regular attack, definitely. And I never said it forces AOOs on everything. I did propose a free Bullrush, but there'd be more rules for that (stops on the first Bullrushed one, for instance).

But a full round attack to do a single 2d8, 20/x3 a round is useless. Here's how I would make it.

Name: Ball-and-Chain
Type: Exotic Weapon. Bludgeon
Damage: 2d8 or 3d6
Critical: 20/x3
Weight: 15-25 lb.
Reach: 15"
Additional Rules: The first attack made with this weapon may be either part of a Charge action, or takes a Full Round Action. This attack action allows only one attack, regardless of current BAB. Afterwards, the Ball-and-Chain takes a Full Round action to maintain momentum, but a character may make as many attacks as their BAB allows. The only movement allowed during this time is a 5" step. The Ball-and-Chain may strike anyone at 10" or 15". If the characters stops making a Full Round attack for any reason, the Ball-and-Chain loses its momentum and requires an additional Full Round attack action to initiate the additional attacks.

That's what I think it should be. If you want, maybe make it where each additional attack must target a seperate enemy, maybe not.

martyboy74
2007-03-28, 08:29 PM
Don't forget that when you carried it, it stopped all ranged attacks against you, although you were knocked back a little bit.

Tyrael
2007-03-28, 09:00 PM
The rhythm my DM and I figured out is something like:

Encounter begins.
Round 1: Casters buff, scouts move, fighters draw weapons. Ball-and-Chain-Man begins whirling his weapon around, full-round action to build momentum.
Round 2: BCM has reached full momentum, and lets fly, attacking once as a standard action. He then withdraws the ball as a move action.
Round 3: BCM begins whirling around again, full-round action.
Round 4: BCM attacks again (standard) and withdraws (move).


So, no matter how high his BAB, he only attacks once every other round. That's the main drawback to it.

Exarch
2007-03-28, 09:24 PM
If you make only one attack every other round, you have to have it be some sort of massive damage output, otherwise there is no reason you'd use it over a Greataxe. Reach weapons generally suck, there's a reason why you never see any of them unless your players like being silly.

To have any reason to use it over a Great sword/great axe, you'd have to make it 2d8 at the very least. If it's usable only every other turn, you'd have to make it at least 4d8, quite possibly more becasue you're ignoring the Str bonus there. By that time, you're around Inflict Critical Wounds or whatever. There's no reason to waste a feat on it, let alone going through the trouble of purchasing it.

The weapon you want, Tyrael sounds more like a Meteor Hammer. This thing is a swinging ball of doom, from what I envision.

Tyrael
2007-03-28, 10:17 PM
What is a Meteor Hammer? Where can that be found?

And yes, this thing sort of is a swinging ball of doom. :P

Exarch
2007-03-28, 10:20 PM
Meteor Hammers are like the things Gogo uses in Kill Bill. Also see martial arts movies.

I saw the stats for it once, but I don't recall where.

Jayabalard
2007-03-29, 07:25 AM
Ignoring the weight of the chain itself and assuming that the ball is 60 lb and it's cast iron then it's right around 7.6 inches in diameter (~3.8" radius)... That doesn't seem to be the size weapon you are envisioning, at least from the descriptions I'm reading.

Tyrael
2007-03-29, 01:24 PM
Aha, finally found it. The video's a walkthrough of the whole dungeon, but the Ball and Chain appears around 8:15.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7700978662915673551&q=twilight+princess+snowpeak

Edit: Also found a screenshot of it.

http://faqsmedia.ign.com/faqs/image/article/750/750737/Image243.jpg
http://faqsmedia.ign.com/faqs/image/article/750/750737/Image240.jpg