Unarmed Strikes & Normal Weapons

[Cyussu]

I'm here yet again with a question relating to Unarmed Strike. This time on if I can use them with say...a Battleaxe and a Shield? Treating them as Secondary Natural Weapons which in turn implies the base -5. And if so, should I get Two-Weapon Fighting to allow multiple attacks or would I just be stuck with 1 Unarmed Strike?

Also, if I was say a Monk, would I be able to Flurry of Blows and just kick the crap out of something after swinging my above noted Axe at the target?

[Curmudgeon]

No, unarmed strikes use the iterative attacks of manufactured weapons, unlike other natural weapons. They're a special case.

[Solaris]

There's a feat that lets you do it, however, called Snap Kick. You can find it in Tome of Battle p 32.

[Cyussu]

There's a feat that lets you do it, however, called Snap Kick. You can find it in Tome of Battle p 32.

Thanks for pointing that out to me. I was also looking into Complete Divine, and Bahamut being my personal favorite Deity, I saw a relic called Gauntlet of the Talon which yes cover my hands but would they deny any other Natural Weapons? More specifically if I had 1d6 Claws, would it still allow me to get those 2 attacks through at the proper -5 after the boosted Unarmed Strikes?

[Curmudgeon]

From the updated item entry in Magic Item Compendium (page 103):
Provided that you are lawful good, lawful neutral, or neutral good, gauntlets of the talon grant you two primary natural claw attacks that count as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. A primary natural weapon (or, in this case, a pair of them) uses your full attack bonus. That's going to limit you, because a primary natural weapon conflicts with use of manufactured weapons; those take precedence.
Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise (using the manufactured weapon consumes most of the creature’s attention), and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. So no battleaxe or shield bash is possible because of this limitation. And you can't use claw attacks if those claws are otherwise engaged (holding a battleaxe and shield, for instance).

[Cyussu]

That isn't exactly what I asked though. I asked if say I was Half-Dragon which has, for medium, 2 1d4 Claws, and a 1d6 Bite, as long as I have the pre-reqs for the Gauntlet of the Talon, would I be able to still get the 1d4 Claw Attacks on top of the base 1d8 Slashing Unarmed Strikes that the Gauntlet(s) grant.

Edit: Sorry, my misunderstanding on the wording with the double up on speaking of actual weapons vs Gauntlet, which would just have me ask would that deny me from wearing ANY glove-based equipment and keeping claw damage?

[Chronos]

While you can't use an unarmed strike as a secondary natural weapon, you can use it as an off-hand weapon. Yes, even if your main weapon is two-handed, or if you're wielding a shield.

[Cyussu]

While you can't use an unarmed strike as a secondary natural weapon, you can use it as an off-hand weapon. Yes, even if your main weapon is two-handed, or if you're wielding a shield.

Huh, so would Two-Weapon Fighting series of Feats be a good idea? I know I saw a feat that allowed you to attack with your offhand on a Standard Action, just gotta find the book it was in again.

[Coidzor]

Huh, so would Two-Weapon Fighting series of Feats be a good idea? I know I saw a feat that allowed you to attack with your offhand on a Standard Action, just gotta find the book it was in again.

Generally TWF is only worth if it you're heavily investing in it, rather than as an after thought, as, even in the most favorable case, you probably have feats you'd be better served by taking.

What's your current build and what do you *want* to be doing?

[Cyussu]

Generally TWF is only worth if it you're heavily investing in it, rather than as an after thought, as, even in the most favorable case, you probably have feats you'd be better served by taking.

What's your current build and what do you *want* to be doing?

Originally, prior to asking this question, my build was going to be Monk1/Paladin5/Anointed Knight10/Ashworm Dragoon4

My character's starting at 9th level, and my /only/ required feats atm are Ascetic knight and Superior Unarmed Strike for the +4 Effective Monk Level on Unarmed Damage. Running Paladin to 5th for the Celestial Mount and Ascetic Knight makes my 5 Paladin levels act as 5 additional Monk levels for Unarmed Strike Damage. I was also thinking of taking Snap Kick, but TWF feats are rather absorbing, and was also thinking of dropping Ashworm Dragoon for 2~4 levels of Fighter for the additional 2~3 feats that'd grant.

Running Anointed Knight for the Sentient Ancestral Weapon, yes I'd have the Cha required by the time I hit 10th level Anointed, so I could have an Animated Sentient Weapon to leave my hands open to be running maxed damage Monk Unarmed Strikes with Superior Unarmed Strike, Monk's Belt, and Gauntlets of the Talon.

[Solaris]

Why not just pay the gold to make your ancestral weapon sentient and pick up a class that advances your special mount, instead? If you're going to level 5 in Paladin for the mount, that could be problematic on account of the mount not advancing any more after that.

[Cyussu]

Why not just pay the gold to make your ancestral weapon sentient and pick up a class that advances your special mount, instead? If you're going to level 5 in Paladin for the mount, that could be problematic on account of the mount not advancing any more after that.

That's actually why I chose 4 levels of Ashworm Dragoon, the Ashworm is allowed to be a Paladin's Special Mount. Therefore, it does progress it as a Celestial Ashworm.

Edit: I had also looked into dropping Ashworm & Paladin to get 6th level Monk, and 4 levels of Fighter for feats.

[ericgrau]

You can't flurry in the same full attack as you attack with non-monk weapons though. You can still attack with unarmed strikes as part of your iteratives or as off-hand attacks, but you don't get the extra flurry attack.

[Cyussu]

You can't flurry in the same full attack as you attack with non-monk weapons though. You can still attack with unarmed strikes as part of your iteratives or as off-hand attacks, but you don't get the extra flurry attack.

I wasn't building around Flurry, hence the original build of only 1 level of Monk. I was going to TWF because at 20th level, I'd be throwing 8 attacks out, 4 MH, 3 OH, 1 Snap Kick, each for 2d10 base damage.

[Coidzor]

Originally, prior to asking this question, my build was going to be Monk1/Paladin5/Anointed Knight10/Ashworm Dragoon4

My character's starting at 9th level, and my /only/ required feats atm are Ascetic knight and Superior Unarmed Strike for the +4 Effective Monk Level on Unarmed Damage. Running Paladin to 5th for the Celestial Mount and Ascetic Knight makes my 5 Paladin levels act as 5 additional Monk levels for Unarmed Strike Damage. I was also thinking of taking Snap Kick, but TWF feats are rather absorbing, and was also thinking of dropping Ashworm Dragoon for 2~4 levels of Fighter for the additional 2~3 feats that'd grant.

Running Anointed Knight for the Sentient Ancestral Weapon, yes I'd have the Cha required by the time I hit 10th level Anointed, so I could have an Animated Sentient Weapon to leave my hands open to be running maxed damage Monk Unarmed Strikes with Superior Unarmed Strike, Monk's Belt, and Gauntlets of the Talon.

So you want to punch people while riding around on a sandworm or possibly something else. Not the most synergistic of things, but, that's OK. Anything else?

And, yeah, if I was going to advise a mounted combatant on how to use TWF if they really wanted to invest in it, I'd direct them towards TWF(or, preferably, gloves of the balanced hand to give them the feat from a hand slot item) > oversized TWF > two weapon pounce to get two x2 or x3 or even x4 damage lance attacks on a charge, depending upon items and feats. And even then, that's a hand slot item and 2 feats at minimum for that extra attack on top of the other feats and items one needs to pull off lance charging optimization.

My understanding of Talons of the Claw is that you'd need a Dragon Magazine feat, Beast Strike, in order to stack the claw damage of the hand slot item you're wearing with your unarmed strike damage, so unless you're using a version that's vastly different from the excerpt that was posted, you're not pumping your unarmed strike damage with them without another feat invested into using them.

Also, you may be better off without the monk level if you're taking Superior Unarmed Strike, as most of your damage, at the end of the day, is from your rider effects like power attack rather than from the damage dice themselves, and not having to pick up a monk's belt or take a level of monk will give you a bit more flexibility with your cash and level plan.

[Cyussu]

So you want to punch people while riding around on a sandworm or possibly something else. Not the most synergistic of things, but, that's OK. Anything else?

And, yeah, if I was going to advise a mounted combatant on how to use TWF if they really wanted to invest in it, I'd direct them towards TWF(or, preferably, gloves of the balanced hand to give them the feat from a hand slot item) > oversized TWF > two weapon pounce to get two x2 or x3 or even x4 damage lance attacks on a charge, depending upon items and feats. And even then, that's a hand slot item and 2 feats at minimum for that extra attack on top of the other feats and items one needs to pull off lance charging optimization.

My understanding of Talons of the Claw is that you'd need a Dragon Magazine feat, Beast Strike, in order to stack the claw damage of the hand slot item you're wearing with your unarmed strike damage, so unless you're using a version that's vastly different from the excerpt that was posted, you're not pumping your unarmed strike damage with them without another feat invested into using them.

Also, you may be better off without the monk level if you're taking Superior Unarmed Strike, as most of your damage, at the end of the day, is from your rider effects like power attack rather than from the damage dice themselves, and not having to pick up a monk's belt or take a level of monk will give you a bit more flexibility with your cash and level plan.

Well as I said, I am completely fine with dropping the mount altogether, and losing that 1 monk level would significantly decrease my unarmed strike damage.

As for the Gauntlets of the Talon, worst case scenario is I would need to take True Believer (of Bahamut) for the effect, but the Magic item compendium's version doesn't require that feat, only that the player be LG, LN, or NG.

Edit: Regardless, I need True Believer for the Gauntlets for the Relic Power.