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View Full Version : So a Titan, Archon, Demon, and Devil Walk into a bar...



lordmarcoos
2007-03-27, 04:05 AM
And I'm trying to get a feel for how the conversation would go, assuming they're all hanging out in Sigil, and maybe they've all simultaneously decided to start questioning their powers (gods, to you primers). So, in the hopes of helping to reaffirm their faith, they all thought they'd get a little tipsy and discuss philosophy. Assume, also, that for the sake of this argument, their mental stats are all in the the same range (maybe mid-thirties, I want them to be smart, and I guess the smarter/wiser/more charismatic ones are all drinking the appropriate cocktails to bring themselves to the same level as the others)

From as far as I can tell, no one's really got a particularly higher ground, as in a world where alignments are actually real forces, and dying as an evil person is no more or less satisfying than dying as a good one, I'm trying to understand the perspectives of each.

The Archon and the Devil say to the Titan and the Demon that Law is a force of Order, a force of unity, and that the greatest works of the multiverse were not created by individuals, but rather groups, capable of pooling their energies together towards a common goal. Without Law the group could not be organized, and thus would be at best inefficient, and at worst, incapable of proper action.

The Demon and the Titan counter that chaos is a force of randomness, and it is only through the chaotic movings of the mind that creativity can come about, and, it is in these moments of creativity that the greatest ideas of the multiverse have been thought up.

The Titan and the Archon say to the Demon and the Devil that benevolence begets benevolence, and that making friends helps you a lot more in the end than making enemies (or fiends. Get it? GET IT? I'm so funny), because you've now created bonds of trust, and if a problem is ever greater than you are, you have people to turn to to help you solve it. And besides, they add, the Neutrals around like them better anyways.

The Demon and the Devil counter that this benevolence is first of all, fickle and unreliable. who's to say these friends won't turn on you tomorrow? And then what of this greater problem. We, say the devil and the demon, could subjugate the ones below, and force their allegiance just the same, but faster, than you two could. If you two weren't so busy, they'd say, trying to please everyone around you, maybe you'd have figured out a way to crush the lower planes a long time ago. And besides, they'd add, who cares what your neighbors think? They may not like a flaming evil beast next door, but what in the nine hells (I guess it's just the devil talking now...) are they going to do about it? they're neutrals, they'll just sit on their collective asses worrying and complaining, while doing nothing. And if you want their help, knocking down their wall and telling them to go stab someone for you is a lot faster and easier than a polite knock on the door.

I'd like to continue more, but I have 8 hours of construction work to do tomorrow, and thought that to better represent the massive intellect of powerful outsiders, the collaborative efforts of a forum board could be helpful. So what are some continued rebuttals? What more points could each side make? Will they all end up pissed off and going their seperate ways, now more reassured that they are right? will they all flip-flop alignments? Will they all end up agreeing and turning True Neutral? What happens next?

Neon Knight
2007-03-27, 06:30 AM
....

How does the Titan get into the bar? He's of Huge size. Why not use an angel instead? Angels can be any good alignment, including chaotic good.

And I'm pretty sure titans, archons, demons, and devils, being creatures of pure alignments, never doubt their cause. they may be physically incapable of doubting their cause. I'd think instead of arguing, they'd just try to smite each other.

Do these creatures eve have free will to decide whether they are good or evil? I doubt it. They'd just try to kill each other.


come to think of it, what the heck is a demon, a devil, an archon, and a titan doing in a bar? Shouldn't they be doing something important, like stealing souls or saving them?

The whole scenario seems like a silly comedy skit.

Sam K
2007-03-27, 07:07 AM
If they try to smite eachother, the lady will have words with them.

Well, they will have words with the lady.

Though not as much words as screaming in pain.

Arbitrarity
2007-03-27, 07:15 AM
Eladrin, not Titan.

And they can converse, because that's how the DMG describes Sigil ^_^.

Talya
2007-03-27, 07:48 AM
How does the Titan get into the bar? He's of Huge size.
Titans can maintain medium size at will.


And I'm pretty sure titans, archons, demons, and devils, being creatures of pure alignments, never doubt their cause. they may be physically incapable of doubting their cause.


As angels can fall, so can Archons, and so Demons and Devils can be redeemed. (In fact, devils in D&D lore are fallen LG angels sent to battle the chaos of the Abyss and corrupted in the process, hence, the blood war.)


I'd think instead of arguing, they'd just try to smite each other.

Particularly the demon and devil, yes. Demons and Devils hate each other more than they hate their opponents on the good axis. (And of course, the Eldarin, Titan (actually a variable alignment), or whatever is going to get along reasonably well with the archon. CG and LG will cooperate, they emphasize their common ground rather than their differences, where CE and LE are at eternal war.)

Variable Arcana
2007-03-27, 08:39 AM
Fundamental difference between Celestials and Infernals:

The Archon and the Eladrin/Titan/Guardinal/Einheriar can spend eons in that bar debating the relative merits of their moral philosophies. Throughout, they'd still be laughing and smiling and taking turns paying for the beer.

The Devil and the Demon couldn't do that with either of them, and even less with each other. When the Demon got up to use the little fiend's room the Devil would spike his beer with demonsbane and stick invisible axiomatic caltrops on his chair, and summon reinforcements to lie in ambush. When the Demon returned from the facilities with his own reinforcements, they'd proceed to tear the bar apart.

Imrix.
2007-03-27, 08:45 AM
I think the thrust of the OP is that the idea is for none of that to matter, and for people to debate the pros and cons of differing alignments.

Personally, I lean towards a kind of secular evil. Not through any malice towards other people, mind you, but because discarding the outdated mysticism that has become normal morality opens up so many options for gain.

I've made characters based on this notion, that have gotten ahead of others by being more ruthless or apparently unscrupulous, finding profit in any situation where others would have clung to their morality and, as a result, lost.

Assassinfox
2007-03-27, 10:38 AM
Why do you have a Titan instead of an Eladrin? o.O

And why don't we have a modron, a slaad, a guardinal, and a yugoloth? I bet the "Pure" alignments would have something to say too.

Khantalas
2007-03-27, 10:41 AM
Archon and Devil would turn on the dem... that wretch and the Titan for their willing defiance of the Universal Laws. Then the devil would probably kill the archon for giggles.

Oh, you were wondering about the standard cosmology...

Woot Spitum
2007-03-27, 10:48 AM
I think the whole argument would come to an end when a group of elementals start laughing at them for holding strong feelings about anything. The group of outsiders then realize that waffling and not really having strong feelings on any issue is actually less admirable, since it amounts to no more than running and hiding from life's toughest questions. They all leave, each more convinced than ever that their own point of view is correct.

Roethke
2007-03-27, 10:55 AM
Ouch! Damn these immovable rods.

(sorry, had to be done.)

Jannex
2007-03-27, 11:02 AM
The Archon and the Devil say to the Titan and the Demon that Law is a force of Order, a force of unity, and that the greatest works of the multiverse were not created by individuals, but rather groups, capable of pooling their energies together towards a common goal. Without Law the group could not be organized, and thus would be at best inefficient, and at worst, incapable of proper action.

Titan: "The trouble with that is, when the will of the collective is given more importance than individual agency, dogmatism and tyranny can far too easily arise, casting the individual in shackles and robbing him of choice. That is evil."

Demon: "That isn't evil, that's annoying." *dirty look in Devil's direction*

Devil: "Yeah, well your mom was pretty annoying last night, when I was--"

Archon: "Now really, that's not necessary..."

Indon
2007-03-27, 11:16 AM
I could get in on this a bit. Sounds pretty fun. I can't so much speak for an int 30 being, though.

Exerpt of conversation -

Demon: You know, I never really thought about it, but Evil is good. And good is evil. Well, in a way.
Archon: *observes he is sipping at the same drink as the demon, and pushes it away distastefully*
Devil: No worries, I spiked his drink.
Demon: I'm serious! I mean, imagine a world in which humans never did evil things. Everyone just lived happily and simply in their fishing or farming villages, without need or want.
Titan: Okay...
Archon: That's nice mental imagery.
Devil: I refuse.
Demon: Well, imagine a wild bear comes along, starving and lame, unable to catch fast prey... so he goes after humans. And you know what? They're all bear snacks! That's not good.
Archon: Wait. You're saying that because these humans don't practice, say, war, that they wouldn't have weapons. But that wouldn't keep them from hunting game, which does require weapons. They could still fight off a bear.
Titan: But they still wouldn't neccessarily be able to fight a bear. Deer, maybe. But bears are much larger and more fearsome. But your point, demon?
Demon: Well, imagine there is war. For their own safety, these villages need fighting men. So, what do they have to fear from some lame bear, they have people trained to kill! And so the humans untained by evil die, and the ones tainted live.
Devil: Okay, I'll admit, I do like the irony of that situation. People expect evil to lead to death, but in this case its' the other way around.
Archon: But what of the price of having war? Yes, there may be peripheral benefits to being prepared for violence against the forces of nature, but a village must pay for this with its' sons, sent to war to die for the petty vendettas of man... usually, anyway.
Devil: Oh, not always. Remember the Imperium of Auroc and the Republic of the Western Marches?
Titan: Do tell.
Devil: Well. *gestures to the barkeep for another drink* Both sophisticated, magically advanced nations. No lost love 'tween them. But never waged war. Why? Because they weren't stupid. They knew the sorceries they wielded would be used to slaughter each other. There'd be nothing left but wasteland. So there was peace, and prosperity.
Archon: Except that eventually there was war, and Auroc and the Western Marches are now the Western Wasteland, where only nomads and scavengers dare to travel.
Devil: Well, a little known fact about that, the war was actually the result of a diplomatic crisis precipitated by a team of adventurers.
Archon: Ah. Well, fair enough.
Demon: I hate adventurers. Whenever you're just about to settle down in a nice dungeon, along comes a flying, invisible wizard...
Titan: And the roving, rag-tag bands strike again, eh?

Roderick_BR
2007-03-27, 11:19 AM
"The drow barman look at them and say: 'Is this some kind of joke?'"

Jannex
2007-03-27, 11:20 AM
"The drow barman look at them and say: 'Is this some kind of joke?'"

Well played. :smallbiggrin:

AtomicKitKat
2007-03-27, 11:43 AM
The Devil would try to get them all to sign something. "My outsider soul for a drink."

The Demon would try for a barroom brawl.

The Archon would call the Union Sentinels(or whatever Sigil's equivalent cops are)

The Eladrin would put a few drops of Holy/Unholy water in each of the others' drinks, just to see smoke coming off all their ears.

Assassinfox
2007-03-27, 11:51 AM
The Archon would call the Union Sentinels(or whatever Sigil's equivalent cops are)

BLASPHEMY! :smallyuk:

Besides, the Archon can't just sic' the Harmonium on them for "being evil".

ampcptlogic
2007-03-27, 11:59 AM
What would be really interesting would be a five-way conversation between the LG, CG, LE, and CE characters and a Neutral Prime. Watch as each of the four tries to bring the Prime over to some part of their alignment.

But I think Indon has the right of it.

jjpickar
2007-03-27, 12:29 PM
Demon: (Being restrained by a strait jacket) You know, its not that I'm evil so much as I do only the greatest good for myself and to the abyss with everyone else.

Archon: But then you have to deal with the whole "You scratch his back he scratches your back" principle. Sometimes helping others is personally beneficial.

Devil: But if he scratched someone else's back they would be a bloody pile on the floor. You do have to consider how much your "help" actually helps. Help in some cases results in harm.

Demon: That reminds me of the time when a group of adventurers tried to "help" some polymorphed humans return to normal. They ended up with humans that had the I.Q. of a rabbit.

Titan: But in that case, I recall it was the rabbit shaped humans that asked for help.

Archon: I remember a better story of help. It was when...(Demon finally breaks his strait jacket and combat ensues.)

(Minutes later in the Abyss)
(Polymorphed demon): You adventurers need help out of here? Sure I'll help.

Paladin: My evil sense is tingling...

Demented
2007-03-27, 03:44 PM
Enter the contestants!

Archon: Trumpet Archon, 16 Int, 16 Wis (LG)
Demon: Balor, 24 Int, 24 Wis (CE)
Devil: Pit Fiend, 26 Int, 26 Wis (LE)
Djinni, 14 Int, 15 Wis (CG)

The Peanut Gallery!
Angel: Solar, Int 23, Wis 25 (CG or NG)
Efreeti, 12 Int, 15 Wis (LE)
Marut, 12 Int, 17 Wis (LN)
Titan: Titan, 21 Int, 28 Wis (CN)
Tarrasque (The Bouncer)



Demon: "From this, it is clear. Good IS stupid!"
Devil: "Good also has less hit dice."
Archon: *whimper*
Genie: "Good luck, trumpet archon friend. Plane shift!"
Devil: "So, do you want to talk, or should we just roll diplomacy?"
Archon: *more whimpering*

Solar: "That was short."
Marut: "Told you. Pay up."
Titan: "Don't I get to say something?"
Efreeti: "No."

illathid
2007-03-28, 12:14 AM
As angels can fall, so can Archons, and so Demons and Devils can be redeemed. (In fact, devils in D&D lore are fallen LG angels sent to battle the chaos of the Abyss and corrupted in the process, hence, the blood war.)


Technically thats wrong. Devils (baatezu) are the progeny of Asmodeus who was a LN "angel" (read as exemplar of law, not the standard angel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm)). You should check out Rip Van Wormer's History of the Lower Planes over on the WoTC boards for an even more in depth explanation.

Gralamin
2007-03-28, 12:31 AM
Or just simply read Fiendish codex 2.

these 4 beings couldn't convince each other one way or the other, unless they failed their will saves and signed the devils contract.

Malachite
2007-03-28, 12:58 PM
Enter the contestants!

Archon: Trumpet Archon, 16 Int, 16 Wis (LG)
Demon: Balor, 24 Int, 24 Wis (CE)
Devil: Pit Fiend, 26 Int, 26 Wis (LE)
Djinni, 14 Int, 15 Wis (CG)

The Peanut Gallery!
Angel: Solar, Int 23, Wis 25 (CG or NG)
Efreeti, 12 Int, 15 Wis (LE)
Marut, 12 Int, 17 Wis (LN)
Titan: Titan, 21 Int, 28 Wis (CN)
Tarrasque (The Bouncer)



Wouldn't it make more sense to exchange the Archon and Djinni with the Solar and Titan? That'd be a much closer match up on both sides ;)

Khantalas
2007-03-28, 04:55 PM
...unless they failed their will saves and signed the devils contract.

And that's why Baatezu rock.

Matthew
2007-03-29, 04:51 PM
As angels can fall, so can Archons, and so Demons and Devils can be redeemed. (In fact, devils in D&D lore are fallen LG angels sent to battle the chaos of the Abyss and corrupted in the process, hence, the blood war.)

Huh, never heard that before. Where did that little snippet of lore originate?

Demented
2007-03-29, 11:45 PM
Wouldn't it make more sense to exchange the Archon and Djinni with the Solar and Titan? That'd be a much closer match up on both sides ;)

Oh, surely. But then we wouldn't have the beautiful polarity of alignment, now would we?

Actually, imagine an argument between 4 dragons.