How do I fall?

[Hyena]

So, I've decided to toy with an idea of playing an oathbreaker paladin, because they're incredibly fun as presented in DMG. Non-evil one, if possible. I've looked upon three codes there are in PHB, trying to figure out my character's backstory, and in the middle of creative process, I suddenly got a thought. Falling in 5e is much harder then in 3.5 - it actually takes effort. The game gives you multiple second chances, and the codes are written in the ways open to interpretation. For example, how does paladin of ancients fall? Or how does paladin of vengeance fall? They pretty much get carte blanche to do whatever the want.
So that was the moment I've decided to adress giantitp, because if someone can come up with fun ways different paladins can fail to uphold their duties, it's this forum.

[pwykersotz]

So, I've decided to toy with an idea of playing an oathbreaker paladin, because they're incredibly fun as presented in DMG. Non-evil one, if possible. I've looked upon three codes there are in PHB, trying to figure out my character's backstory, and in the middle of creative process, I suddenly got a thought. Falling in 5e is much harder then in 3.5 - it actually takes effort. The game gives you multiple second chances, and the codes are written in the ways open to interpretation. For example, how does paladin of ancients fall? Or how does paladin of vengeance fall? They pretty much get carte blanche to do whatever the want.
So that was the moment I've decided to adress giantitp, because if someone can come up with fun ways different paladins can fail to uphold their duties, it's this forum.

I picture the Oath of the Ancients Paladin falling by 'coveting the light'. Caught up in hedonism and revelry and using his power to take from others instead of give. Not purposefully hurting them, at least at first. Like an addict, eventually greater and greater measures become palatable until he's a fallen shell of his former self.

[Hyena]

Oh. Read more carefully, turns out, you need to be evil to become an oathbreaker. That makes falling much easier, but still leaves the question "how does paladin of vengeance fall" open.

[GiantOctopodes]

So, I've decided to toy with an idea of playing an oathbreaker paladin, because they're incredibly fun as presented in DMG. Non-evil one, if possible. I've looked upon three codes there are in PHB, trying to figure out my character's backstory, and in the middle of creative process, I suddenly got a thought. Falling in 5e is much harder then in 3.5 - it actually takes effort. The game gives you multiple second chances, and the codes are written in the ways open to interpretation. For example, how does paladin of ancients fall? Or how does paladin of vengeance fall? They pretty much get carte blanche to do whatever the want.
So that was the moment I've decided to adress giantitp, because if someone can come up with fun ways different paladins can fail to uphold their duties, it's this forum.

In terms of the Paladin of Vengeance, I think it actually provides a really fun opportunity to introduce some moral shades of grey into things. Maybe you find out a bunch of stuff about one of your sworn enemies (was coerced into cooperation through kidnapping and / or torture, has been committing small acts of kindness throughout and definitely represents the lesser of possible evils in their current position, cries and laments the evil acts in which they participate, etc) to the point at which you decide to show them mercy. That is violating your oaths. Contrition is given, you move on. Then something bigger happens, like finding out that the situation is more complicated than originally thought with a whole organization that you had declared sworn enemies, and they actually have a completely morally justifiable point of view. Though you weren't outright deceived, enough additional information comes to light to where you're not convinced that those who originally sought your aid are not in fact the bad guys. So you abandon entirely your vengeance quest against those guys, and say "you know what, this whole unthinking murder vengeance isn't really acceptable, there has to be room for mercy and room to account for new information coming to light". As such, by arguably becoming a better person (moving more from lawful neutral to neutral good), you completely violate your oaths and lack remorse, making you an oathbreaker.

That's assuming you wanted to go against the mold and be a good oathbreaker, though. Did you want to go evil paladin? Because I can totally come up with one of those too for vengeance paladins if so desired.

Edit: Darn, you have to become evil? Well, so much for that idea. Back to the drawing board.

[Greylind]

Oh. Read more carefully, turns out, you need to be evil to become an oathbreaker. That makes falling much easier, but still leaves the question "how does paladin of vengeance fall" open.

Have you read Preacher? Think of the Saint of Killer's origin story. But basically, get so caught up in vengeance that you kill an innocent deliberately because they're in your way.

[Hyena]

In terms of the Paladin of Vengeance, I think it actually provides a really fun opportunity to introduce some moral shades of grey into things. Maybe you find out a bunch of stuff about one of your sworn enemies (was coerced into cooperation through kidnapping and / or torture, has been committing small acts of kindness throughout and definitely represents the lesser of possible evils in their current position, cries and laments the evil acts in which they participate, etc) to the point at which you decide to show them mercy. That is violating your oaths. Contrition is given, you move on. Then something bigger happens, like finding out that the situation is more complicated than originally thought with a whole organization that you had declared sworn enemies, and they actually have a completely morally justifiable point of view. Though you weren't outright deceived, enough additional information comes to light to where you're not convinced that those who originally sought your aid are not in fact the bad guys. So you abandon entirely your vengeance quest against those guys, and say "you know what, this whole unthinking murder vengeance isn't really acceptable, there has to be room for mercy and room to account for new information coming to light". As such, by arguably becoming a better person (moving more from lawful neutral to neutral good), you completely violate your oaths and lack remorse, making you an oathbreaker.

That's assuming you wanted to go against the mold and be a good oathbreaker, though. Did you want to go evil paladin? Because I can totally come up with one of those too for vengeance paladins if so desired.

Edit: Darn, you have to become evil? Well, so much for that idea. Back to the drawing board.

Yes, that is an incredibly awesome idea, which sounds very similiar to what I've personally came up with - sadly, it's all flushed down the toilet, because oathbreakers have to be evil per rules. Which makes sense, I guess, because you don't get powers to summon undead, cast hexes and inspire dread in your enemies by becoming a better person, finding inner peace and practicing mercy, but still, it kills some fun ideas.

[GiantOctopodes]

Yes, that is an incredibly awesome idea, which sounds very similiar to what I've personally came up with - sadly, it's all flushed down the toilet, because oathbreakers have to be evil per rules. Which makes sense, I guess, because you don't get powers to summon undead, cast hexes and inspire dread in your enemies by becoming a better person, finding inner peace and practicing mercy, but still, it kills some fun ideas.

Hrmm, what about the same idea, but twisted around a bit- the Paladin starts in on enemy A, prodded by cries for aid from people B. The more he goes along killing enemy A, the more something seems really wrong to him, but he pushes through, because of his oaths and all. He eventually realizes that he has had it all wrong, and that people B are the ones that he should have exterminated from the get go, and it makes him snap, as in totally lose it. He completely abandons his oaths and grants all the mercy to enemy A, but not just that- he flips out over all the people he's killed before coming to this realization, and like a psychopath, starts raising those same people, slain at his hand, as undead to go help him kill people B. Depending on how dark you want to go, you could then exterminate every man, woman, and child of people B in a "look what you made me do" sort of creepy, blatantly evil move, just so there is no confusion about this being done by someone who has their moral priorities together. Just a thought.

[Celcey]

Evil shmeavel. I say ask your DM. If you have a good enough story, run with it, even if RAW says you have to be evil. You could always sub in other stuff for the controlling undead. Or maybe after finding your peace, you go evil (or mad) from losing your powers because you technically broke your oath.

[Daishain]

Falling is easy, the whole multiple chances thing goes right out the window if your character violates an oath and does not repent or even show regret for the decision. The system is only forgiving if you are at least trying to live by the oath.

As for oathbreaker, just ignore the evil requirement, and if your DM fusses at you, tell him some random dude on the internet told him to shut up.

Somewhat more seriously, 5E made an excellent move stepping away from alignment having hard mechanical meaning. Their decision to put it back in with the oathbreaker is an unfortunate mistake, although fairly easily fixed.

With that stated however, the abilities of the oathbreaker really are suited more for evil characters and may not be particularly suitable for your campaign. My suggestion? work with your DM on a new oath. One with its own abilities and requirements. Your paladin has forsaken his old path for a new one.

(Note: Falling may be easy, but coming up with appropriate reasoning behind doing so is not. Your character should definitely not just wake up one morning and decide to abandon a large chunk of what set them on their path. That doesn't mean it can't be sudden, just that there must be reason behind it.)

[ghost_warlock]

I always liked the idea of a paladin deciding that their god was petty and unworthy and so the paladin just stops doing their bidding. "You can't make me fall, I quit!" :smalltongue:

[Naanomi]

I always liked the idea of a paladin deciding that their god was petty and unworthy and so the paladin just stops doing their bidding. "You can't make me fall, I quit!" :smalltongue:
An antagonist in my campaign has a story something like this. He was a Dwarven Vengeance Pally who was a member of an Ancestor Worship religion, sworn to avenge the slights done to his honorable ancestors. In his journey he uncovered evidence that the 'honorable ancestor' was a Warlock scumbag who did most of the stuff the paladin was avenging himself.

The Paladin had to choose between serving a clearly evil Ancestor or 'falling' and abandoning his Oath. He fell, tried to do good, but now is jaded and a ruthless mercenary (and leader of an 'evil adventuring group' acting as foils and rivals to the party)

[Regulas]

Despair is the most obvious, you become exhausted or despondant at your duty and at some point elect to not go through with something your oath requires (like failing to defend someone) perhaps because you find yourself doing too much or maybe there is just so much wickedness that you can't stand it and have a breakdown but whatever the case you basically give up, and focus on yourself.

The joy of killing. Very very simple concept you start out killing for vengeance or otherwise but find gradually that you enjoy the killing itself, maybe you stop offering mercy, maybe you stop caring who it is you're going after, or by some other means you stop following the oath (maybe you realise the oath was just an excuse and killing is all you ever really wanted to do to begin with!).

Interestingly that concept actually works well for an evil Ancients paladin (staying ancients) since you're still bringing "joy" and "art" to the world twisted as it is. (Red Murmur?)

[Slipperychicken]

"how does paladin of vengeance fall" open.

This list is in the order in which the Oath of Vengeance vows are presented.


Faced with a choice between fighting a greater and lesser evil, choose the lesser. This might happen because it holds more personal significance. (I imagine a paladin choosing to help out with a party member's personal problems, or do a BS sidequest which endangers the main objective, or help out a victim of injustice when doing so risks blowing his cover).
Show mercy to a sworn enemy. This is basically the vengeance-paladin's version of "going soft". A particularly sadistic DM could even consider a quick or painless execution to be too merciful.
Let your qualms get in the way of exterminating foes. (Bad guy has a party member as a hostage, Pally lets the bad guy go free in exchange for the hostages' life. Bad guy is only 19 years old, Pally lets him live 'cause he's just a kid. Bad guy surrenders, Pally takes him as a prisoner and refuses to CDG him).
Failing to help your foes' victims. PCs rarely do this anyway, so it's easy to see how a Paladin might forget.


So yeah, the restitution bit is pretty easy to get caught on, and you can totally fall if you stop acting like the Punisher for too long.

[Sartharina]

Oath of Devotion is easy to fall - Pull an Arthas. Put immediate results over duty and doing things 'the right way', and sacrifice everything you stood for.

Oath of Vengeance is also easy to fall - Pull an Arthas. Kill the people you're supposed to be avenging, and ally with your enemies.

Oath of Ancients is also easy to fall - Pull an Arthas. Forsake the value of life, and snuff out that which's only crime is being weaker than you and not already dead.

[Daishain]

snip
Forgive me, but Arthas? I'm not familiar with that name, and I thought I knew at least snippets of lore from most popular high fantasy collections.

[Regulas]

Forgive me, but Arthas? I'm not familiar with that name, and I thought I knew at least snippets of lore from most popular high fantasy collections.

Warcraft lore.

[Daishain]

Warcraft lore.
Ah, that would explain it.

[Jeebs]

The idea that I'm saving for my chance to play an Oathbreaker is that the character has close ties to a Wizard who begins to practice Necromancy. This would either be a fellow PC, or an NPC the character is close to. This is sort of dependent on Necromancy being "evil" (always a point of contention), but it's also a matter of perception.

Say your character was told to kill or capture their friend the burgeoning Necromancer, and refused. Perhaps he or she even killed some others who attempted to do the same.

Ultimately the character is pretty Neutral, in that their main loyalty is to their friend, but they're sort of Lawful Evil, in that they're willing to embrace the Oathbreaker class in order to gain power to protect him/herself, to kill relatively innocent people, and to shun supposedly Good deities.

[unwise]

How do you fall? A woman, it's always a woman. At least in the best stories.

You want to be good, so a love interest lets you fall in such a way as to not seem like a bad guy.

Paladin of the Ancients - Sworn to protect the Sacred Temple Virgin, The Lady of Unicorns. Lets just say, afterwards, unicorns seemed to stay away from her a lot more.

Paladin of Vengeance - In order to avenge a wrong done to his ladyfriend, he takes unholy vengeance and really oversteps the mark, leaving lawfulness well behind. He does things that made villians blush. For extra optional drama, the lady is still alive and now he is starting to doubt that she was ever telling the truth about what the 'villian' did to her. Succubus or just a horrible person?

Paladin of Devotion - Simply falling in love and giving into that love could be enough to make Paladins of certian orders fall. Breaking a vow of chasity, then lying to try and hide it, the neglecting a duty in order to be with her is enough. An Erathis Paladin that lies to his king and beds his queen is highly unlikely to stay in the gods good graces.

The genders are not important and are interchangeable of course. In fact, adding in a gay aspect to it makes the love more taboo and interesting.

[GorinichSerpant]

The genders are not important and are interchangeable of course. In fact, adding in a gay aspect to it makes the love more taboo and interesting.

An over-protective King goes threw all the trouble of making sure his princess isn't to be seduced by a man...instead she runs off with a women.

[pwykersotz]

An over-protective King goes threw all the trouble of making sure his princess isn't to be seduced by a man...instead she runs off with a women.

Heh, "a women". Somehow that makes it sound more like a monster for formless entity. :smalltongue:

[oncnawan]

For example, how does paladin of ancients fall?

Eating bacon.

[Shining Wrath]

So first you have to do something actively evil, because your Oathbreaker Paladin is required to be evil. Now there's two ways to break your oath, broadly speaking: go too far, or don't go far enough.

For any of the three, you can not go far enough because you're distracted (being in a party, a love interest), or frightened (the BBEG is so very B & B, and so very scary E), or you're lost your fervor. EDIT: So because you don't fulfill your oath, evil things happen, and you knew they would happen and let them happen.

Going too far is where the different flavors of Paladin might tend to differ.

A Devotion Pally might go uber-lawful at the expense of good, and let the innocent suffer because the law requires it.

An Ancient Pally might start destroying the ugly and the dark, even when it's not actually evil. Eventually he starts walking into town and smiting everyone with a Charisma less than 8 ... 9 ... 10 ....

A Vengeance Pally is the easiest to take too far, IMNSHO; you not only destroy your sworn enemies, you destroy all those who "ally" with them. "If you aren't against THEM, I am against YOU". So the innkeeper who let the Bandit King stay overnight dies and his inn is burned to the ground, because you are sworn to the destruction of the Bandit King. At some point along the path of falling it no longer matters if the innkeeper even knew his guest was the Bandit King, or had even heard of the Bandit King.

[MadBear]

It seems easy to me for a vengeance paladin to fall.

I can imagine a vengeance paladin as time goes on, becoming more and more detached from the people he's suppose to be fighting evil for. As that happens, I can see that paladin ignoring those who have become harmed by evil, and eventually even using those people as bait all to "fight the greater evil". After enough time, that same paladin may even completely lose connection with those he once protected, and start to see them as worthy of cleansing as well. Think Anakin (hopefully with a less sloppy and poorly done storyline though).

[Socko525]

This touches on something that I've felt from the beginning when reading the Oathbreaker unveiling.

I feel the existing Oathbreaker is perfect for an Oath of Devotion Paladin falling. I feel like there should be 3 variants of Oathbreaker, each catered to the breaking the different Oaths.

[MaxWilson]

If you get distracted by something just before you hit the ground, you wind up flying instead.

[Frenth Alunril]

Isn't lawful evil perfectly reasonable?

As a DM, I totally see how LE *ah-(cronyism)-hem* kinda runs our real world.

[T.G. Oskar]

Pull off a Sith.

Each Code has something that leads you astray, and makes you break your Oath. The Oath of Devotion requires you to act honorably, so you break your Oath by acting dishonorably. The Oath of the Ancients requires you to protect the Light, so you break your Oath by embracing the Darkness or abusing of the Light. The Oath of Vengeance requires you to show no mercy to your sworn enemies and retribution for their deeds; while showing mercy seems like a foul way to fall, showing a lack of retribution for their deeds does. Falling from the Oath of Vengeance requires being so absorbed in your task of vengeance that you become consumed by it, being as evil as they are and eventually forgetting the balancing act.

If you think of the Jedi Knight and the Force as an Oath, you'll notice their tenets include "the needs of the many over the needs of the few" and "control your passions". Not being able to control your passions eventually leads you to be consumed by them ("fear leads to anger, anger leads to aggression,[...]") and to fall. In that regard, each Oath has its "X leads to Y, Y leads to Z, and Z leads to the Dark Side", with "Dark Side" being the Oathbreaker.


A Paladin choosing the Oath of Devotion stops acting honorably. It notices that such shameful acts are apparently forgiven, so it delves deeper, eschewing its own honor. When the grace is removed from the paladin, the result is either recognizing the shame of its acts and either reclaim its honor or embrace the shame. Embracing the shame leads to further acts of shame, which eventually lead to evil/the Dark Side, and thus to the Oathbreaker.
A Paladin chooses the Oath of the Ancients. While embracing the good aspects of life (song, dance, the simple things), it starts to dwell too much on them, and starts to hog them; the Paladin becomes a hedonist for the sake of hedonism, rather than as a way to embrace life. Eventually, it starts to shirk in its duties because it becomes lazy, complacent and subservient to pleasures, eventually falling to vices. The Light in those actions becomes darker and darker, until it falls. Then, the Paladin falls and has two choices: to re-embrace the Light and fight for its sake, or succumb to its inner Darkness and revel on all vices. In other words: a Paladin of the Ancients makes for a good Sensate (Planescape), thus a fallen Oath of the Ancients Paladin started to act less like a Sensate and more like a Slaneeshi devotee.
A Paladin chooses the Oath of Vengeance. The paladin starts small: being ruthless, but still fettered by responding to the blight of those it pursues with good actions. Eventually, the paladin starts to become unfettered; it suddenly starts to see enemies in every place, and every slight suddenly becomes a threat (going for the lesser evil instead of the greater). The task becomes a 24-hour task, and thus the paladin has no time to repay its target's evil deeds with good ones, so it stains its soul even further. Finally, it does the unthinkable; the paladin kills an innocent and convinces itself it was THE thing to do, because the "innocent" wasn't what he thought. That path easily leads to the "Dark Side" and to the Oathbreaker. A formidable example of a fallen Oath of Vengeance Paladin who went Oathbreaker? Kore, from the Goblins webcomic.


The idea is that the Paladin doesn't suddenly lose its powers. Its fall is gradual, and what makes you go into an Oathbreaker is to take all that twisted you and embrace it so hard, you're willing to do everything to get that power back.

[Freelance GM]

Honestly, I feel like Paladin of Vengeance would be the easiest to break, as they're already walking on a knife-edge.

The PHB specifically says, "Their own purity is not as important as delivering justice."

And especially with the Restitution tenet: "If my foes wreak ruin on the world, it is because I failed to stop them."
A truly devout Paladin of Vengeance would hold themselves accountable for every innocent killed by the bad guys. No matter how illogical your reasoning is, those deaths are your fault.

For example, when your party stumbles on a destroyed village, every death is on your hands, because you spent an extra night in the last town. You could have evacuated the village if only you left a day earlier.

If a recurring villain kills a beloved NPC, it is your fault because you didn't kill the villain the last time you saw him.

If another party member dies, it is because you weren't there to save them.

Just have your character take responsibility for every bad thing that happens in the campaign. You're playing the character. How long do you think your character could endure that interpretation of the Oath before cracking under the pressure?
And more importantly, what will your character do when you do snap?

Falling from the Oath of Vengeance isn't about you breaking a rule, it's about the rules breaking you.

[unwise]

Pull off a Sith...


I guess he might be grateful and teach you the ways of the darkside, but hmmm...