The Bowmaster class with 3 Subclasses

[Leuku]

Halloa. I would like to present to you the Bowmaster, martial ranged weapon expert extraordinaire. This is my first post, so I'm not well versed in formatting it; I'll do the best I can.

First, here's the google doc (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GD7JZcHEQQ4mafxEGah6zWStbd0lp5hs8F2nO-IKzac/edit?usp=sharing) containing all of the data on the Bowmaster and its 3 subclasses: Bowslinger, Deadshot, and Arcane Archer.

Next, I'll try and transcribe it here for ease of viewing.

... Never mind. I am completely lost on how to build a table.

I'll just recap here the various strengths and features of this class:

The Bowmaster specializes in the manipulation of ranged weaponry. He is not meant to be the fighter equivalent of a ranged weapon user - Fighters utilize ranged weaponry just fine. Rather, the Bowmaster is a technique oriented class, like the Sorcerer is with Metamagic or the Monk is with Ki Points.

At 1st level, your notable features include a Fighting style, Eagle Sight, and proficiency in Fletcher's Tools, homebrew tools that allow you to better construct your own ammunition, which will be very important for one of this class' core features.

A couple of Fighting styles have been altered to accommodate ranged weaponry.

Eagle Sight - have all the benefits of binoculars naturally in your eyes.

The Bowmaster's primary attributes are Dexterity first and Intelligence second. A primary goal of this class was to make Intelligence a more relevant, significant ability score for reasons beyond spell casting. Dexterity determines your skill with ranged weaponry and Intelligence determines how well you can plan, calculate and carry out your techniques.

To that end, the Bowmaster has a Save DC that depends on intelligence modifier.

The Bowmaster also has Two extra attack features and 6 ability score improvement levels. It's a middle point between the Monk and the Fighter who have one extra attack/5 ABSI and 3 extra attack/7 ABSI respectively.

At 2nd level, the Bowmaster's Core features come in to play: Trick Shot and Unique Ammunition.

Trick Shot utilizes the Sorcerer sorcery point system to make effects similar to the Sorcerer's Metamagic with ranged weapon attacks. Some trick shots have a monk/rogue-like flair.

The Trick Shot sub-feature "Recovering Strategy" is to compensate for the fact that Trick Points only restore per Long rest, as opposed to the Monk who regains his Ki Points at the end of short rests. Recovering Strategy is inspired from the Wizard's Arcane Recovery.

Unique Ammunition gives you all the fun of creating your own arrows and bolts depending on the resources available in your personal campaigns. Depending on what your DM gives you access to, you could potentially make shrapnel bomb arrows, sleeping gas arrows, glue bomb arrows, boomerang arrows, and so on. There are specific mechanical rules dictating how to construct unique ammunition described in the google doc and DM leeway on how long and how costly unique ammunition a player comes up with will consume.

6th Level's Environmental Analysis is inspired by the Batman Arkham games' investigative tool of the same name. It's a feature that allows you carefully limited access to Advantage with a ranged weapon attack through DM fiat. And it inspires using Investigation to find weaknesses in objects and fortifications (not creatures, though, unless the creature is an object/fortification, which can be confusing. Think living wall of stone kind of creature).

9th level Battlefield Experience: Inspired from the Ranger's 7th level defensive features. You either become slightly more armored (and a person who took the Dueling Combat fight style will find Hip Shield's automatic shield proficiency particularly more useful) or gain an "unlimited-until-death" mental stat defense option.

13th level Momentous Techniques: Almost every non-full-caster class gets some sort of class-specific multi-attacking feature sometime after 10th level. Inspired by the Ranger's 11th level multi-attacking feature.

20th Grandmaster Archery: In line with most other classes, your capstone feature ensures you always have access to your core features.

Subclasses

Bowslinger: Anyone watch the TV show Arrow? Green Arrow sure takes smacking people with his bow to a whole new level. And Legolas does his fair share of bow-smacking and melee-arrow-piercing. Neither are too afraid to engage in melee combat, and the same is true for the Bowslinger.

The Bowslinger is almost as comfortable on the front line as he is in the backrow. Melee attacks and bonus action attacks, combined with soft-control Bowjudo and a second fighting style at 10th level, gives this subclass incredible flexibility in his battle positioning and strategy.

Deadshot: Like its namesake, you are defacto deadlier than the average archer. We start things off by raising your average damage with Deadly Aim. Then, with Reflect Shot, we make sure you almost always have a target to hit. At 15th level, Reflect Shot dramatically improves against mainly Beasts and other low-intelligence monsters. For some monsters, you are basically guaranteed to hit. This is still limited by the fact that you can only activate this feature a number of times per day equal to your intelligence modifier.

Moment of Weakness gives Deadshot another attack he can make per round and inspires cooperation with the party, because the Bowmaster has no inherent way to make enemies attack with disadvantage. One Shot One Kill is a great party starter and is inspired by what the DC character Deadshot typically does for his assassinations.

Arcane Archer: The classic magic wielding marksman. At first it looks very similar to the Eldritch Knight, but they actually diverge quite significantly. The Eldritch Knight gets to throw out melee attacks alongside his spells, but the Arcane Archer melds them. Which means the Arcane Archer makes fewer attacks per turn than the Eldritch Knight, and in turn gains significantly much greater reach and utility. Non-damaging spells that would normally target the self can now be centered around a creature or object you hit with your ammunition.

I added the Ranger spell list to the Arcane Archer because the wizard appears incredibly deficient in low-level Transmutation spells. I imagined the Arcane Archer would learn to magically alter his ammunition, so Transmutation became a natural choice for one of its primary spell schools. Don't worry, the Arcane Archer does not have access to the 5th level spell Quickquiver.

At higher levels we get some minor Portal magic and an action-economy capstone feature.

And that's the Bowmaster.

[qazzquimby]

(Haven't read it, but to make a table, find someone else's post with a table similar to the one you want, press 'reply with quote' and copy the table into your own post, then change the numbers and words.)

[Kerleth]

Alright, before I say anything I want one thing to be known. I am going to be nitpicky and harsh. It is what I want from others when they review. Put it through a stress test, tell me what just doesn't work, point out exploits and ambiguities. That's what I like to hear, so that is what I give to others. So please don't be offended. I think that overall it is well-written, and there is a lot to like. I am focusing on the bad spots.

1st level: There just isn't enough here. 1d8 hp, a fighting style, and better vision just isn't interesting or mechanically powerful enough. The trick shots seem to be the heart of the class, so let's give them one at 1st level. After all, a fighter gets 1d10 hp, a fighting style, and second wind. I don't think a single trick shot and trick point would be overboard. Speaking of which

Trick Shots
A lot of these are pretty basic. That isn't a bad thing. A grand house needs a strong foundation, and there are a lot of useful abilities here. A few issues, though.
Aimed Shot: This just doesn't feel right to me. I imagine melee combat as a flurry of blows and dodges being exchanged, and have no problem with a half damage on a miss mechanic there. For some reason, though, I imagine ranged combat as more of a single shot, hit or miss scenario. Could be just me, but maybe just rerolling the attack would be better?
Counter Shot: I would add in a "you must be wielding a ranged weapon" clause, so that it is obvious you are shooting their attack out of the air, or at least upsetting it's aim. No blocking arrows with your mind. Again, the half damage seems okay for melee, but off for ranged. I imagine another arrow striking the incoming attack to send it completely off course, not just lessen the blow. More okay with this than on aimed shot though. Just my completely subjective opinion. Please note that I think the general idea of this ability is pretty friggin' awesome, though. Shoot enemy archer's arrows out of the air? Heck Yeah!
Split Tree Shot: I've seen this sort of ability on countless things, from homebrew classes to final fantasy characters. It pretty much always is a waste of space. Unless half damage is enough to kill one of them, you are better off making a single normal damage attack. If you could hit 3+ people, half damage might be worth it. Perhaps just make it full damage? You have to spend a trick point to do it, so overall it should be superior to a normal attack. It can still coexist peacefully with Quick Shot, since this one wouldn't use your one bonus action per turn up, and could be used on both attacks made with an action come 5th level, but they have to be aimed at separate targets.

Unique Ammunition
Neat. I like the general mechanic here, and especially how you don't need to choose types of ammo known. Allows you to adapt as long as you have a chance to plan ahead. One issue, though.
Holy Ammunition: A regular longbow attack at this level is likely 1d8+3 damage. That is an average of 7.5 damage. 2d6 is an average of 7 damage. Even though it is radiant, I still don't think it is good enough. Especially considering that with a magic bow or higher ability score you are very likely losing damage. I would just say it deals an additional 1d6 damage to fiends and undead and call it a day.

Environmental Analysis: Okay, the first part of this ability is just bad. Giving up a whole turn to gain advantage on my next one. For an ambush, you already have advantage. For a regular turn, you are better off just attacking on both turns. Either way you get two attack rolls, but attacking on both turns gives you a chance of dealing damage with both, whereas with advantage you can only deal damage once. Actually, Extra Attack means this is even worse compared to taking two attack actions. I give up two attacks on this turn to gain advantage on one attack next turn? Trap in all but the most rare and specific of situations. Perhaps if you could use it to give you or another character advantage, or as a bonus action, then we'd be talkin'.

Battlefield Experience
Hip shield is just silly. That's called armor. Intense Concentration though, that is neat. Hip Shield seems like a b comic gimmick, while Intense Concentration says something about your character and redefines what they can do. I would just go with Intense Concentration. Between Trick Shots and Specializations, along with normal ability score, background, and race choices, each character has enough ways to differentiate themselves. Not every ability has to come from a menu choice.

Momentous Shot
Punch Shot and Scatter Shot: I would make these more powerful and have them use your action. As it is they just seem like little add-ons to your normal attack routine, rather than cool abilities. Also, punch shot would sound better as piercing shot. Perhaps have them use your action but deal double damage. That would make their damage equal to a normal attack routine, but against multiple targets.
Restraining Shot: This should just be a trick shot. You can already make a net arrow with unique shot. Adding a "Pin You To The Wall" into trick shots would be cool though.

I haven't read the Specializations yet. May do that tomorrow, depends on how my day goes. Please don't be offended by any criticisms, they are all intended to be constructive. And pretty much everything that I didn't mention ranges from "okay" to "awesome". Overall I think it is a good start on a sort of "Hawkeye" style character class.

[Leuku]

Halloa Kerlith! Thanks for your review.

Have you seen /u/JamesMusicus' "5e Homebrew Class Guidelines" (http://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/2lndfs/5e_homebrew_class_guidelines/)? It is the foundation by which I developed the Bowmaster.

The guideline explains that at 1st level virtually all classes gain 1 primary mechanic feature and 1 or 2 fluff feature. The only exception to this is the Fighter, who due to being the generic of the generic lacks any sort of fluff feature at level 1.

I began building my Bowmaster through the Fighter base, and I understood that because the Fighter is intentionally built as generic as it goes, and because the Fighter will tend to fight on the frontlines, the Fighter lacks a Fluff feature and gains a primary survival feature, "Second Wind".

But until 3rd level the Bowmaster 9 times out of 10 does not fight on the front lines, so it doesn't need a survival mechanic like that. And because it's not supposed to be the ranged equivalent of the Fighter, it can forgo a second primary feature for a fluff feature, i.e. Eagle Sight.

But going over the level 1 class features of all the classes in the PHB, it does indeed sound like this class may be coming out slightly under par. With this assumption, do you have any idea for an additional mechanic that might bring it up to par?


Aimed Shot: This just doesn't feel right to me. I imagine melee combat as a flurry of blows and dodges being exchanged, and have no problem with a half damage on a miss mechanic there. For some reason, though, I imagine ranged combat as more of a single shot, hit or miss scenario. Could be just me, but maybe just rerolling the attack would be better?

I would argue that re-rolling is much too strong - it's virtually equivalent to gaining Advantage. Funny thing about Aimed Shot: In version 1 of the Bowmaster, it was the name of the primary mechanic of this class in place of Trick Shot and Unique Ammunition. When I got advice that inspired Trick Shot and Unique Ammunition, I ended up wanting to bring back the old Aimed Shot in some way, and it's current form is what you see. I would want you to not worry about it too much; it's just one among nine competitive Trick Shot options.

Countershot: Ooh, ouch, you're right, that is really important. I'll amend that. Yup, there, done. Regarding half-damage vs full damage, flavor-wise you are correct, but mechanically half damage brings it balance. And let's not forget that HP is an abstraction! Countershot could cause an arrow to fully miss, but mentally your ally could be pretty shaken up at the hit they were about to receive, and so lose HP for that minor trauma.

Split Tree Shot: I imagine Split Tree Shot being more of an generating-Aggro ability rather than a creature killer. It's basically a "Hey, you two, look at me!" thing. Of course you could just yell to make people pay attention to you, but this is just so much more focused and personal. But you're right, it is underwhelming mechanically. Do take note that Quick Shot consumes 2 Trick points, which is to suggest that being able to make a bonus action attack to the degree that Quick Shot allows is significant and thus costly. Comparing it with Quick Shot is actually perfect: Quick Shot is costly both in trick points and action economy, but a creature killer. Split Tree Shot is cheap, but underwhelming. Thank you for making the comparison; it really puts it in perspective!

Hmm. You're right, Split Tree Shot does get stronger at higher levels, due to Extra Attacks. At 14th level and 3 trick points, you can deal 3 weapon damage totals to two targets, which is basically the equivalent of making 6 weapon attacks total, whereas with Quick shot you can only deal 4 weapon damage totals. But wait... The former exploit would consume 3 trick points, while Quickshot would remain at 2, so it makes sense that you can do this! Quickshot becomes the more affordable option at that point. Great!

Holy Ammunition: Interesting thing about fiends and undead - Many of the them have resistance to non-magical bludgeoning, piercing and slashing. So the Bowmaster would be dealing 3.25 damage on average rather than 7.5. Unique Ammunition is more for flavor and utility than mechanical strength - a Holy Flask is 50 gp so there's no way you're spamming Holy Ammunition. But if there is some unholy ritual being performed in the center of a graveyard surrounded by undead, and splashing holy water on the ritual circle will disrupt it, then the Bowmaster has the trick just for you.

Environmental Analysis: Hmm. Valid. I think making it a bonus action should be sufficient then. You gain advantage for some action economy. And at 17th level, you won't even use up your bonus action neither, greatly improving your action economy.

Battlefield Experience: This feature is mainly a choice for people who want to survive better against AC based attacks and people who want to survive better through mental-based saving throws. Does not the fact that you gain proficiency in shields in addition to the +1 AC mechanic a competitive boon? It let's a Han Solo type player carry a shield in their off hand while still letting two-handed ranged weapon users gain a significant benefit.

Momentous Techniques: Punch and Scatter shot do use your action.


On your turn, you can spend your bonus action to use your action

Unique Ammunition are meant to be initially inconvenient, due to needing to prepare them in advance and having a limiting capacity to carry them, and mildly costly, due to the materials you have to consume. This mitigates Net Ammunition's effectiveness, as it can be only be used infrequently and is easily removed. I can't have Restraining Shot be a Trick Shot, because Restrained is too powerful a condition. Attacks against the restrained creature have advantage and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage and the creature has disadvantage on dexterity saving throws - that's too strong, especially considering Deadshot's 10th level feature Moment of Weakness. The reason why Net, which restrains, is available to all people at level 1 is because it's so easy to get rid of it. Jamming an arrow in to someone's foot so that they get anchored to the ground or hooking arrows in to their clothes tight against a wall are not so nearly easily dealt with.

Regarding the strength of Punch and Scatter - they're modeled after the various class-specific multi-attacks made available to many of the classes past 10th level. If this were 4e, it would make sense to double their damage, or even triple, but 5e doesn't really do that sort of thing. Both Punch and Scatter have, under specific contexts, to target an incredible number of creatures in one turn. They're basically weapon equivalents of some mid-tier wizard spells. ...

... You know what, looking at actual mid-tier wizard spells like 4th level Ice Storm, which deals 2d8 bludgeoning and 4d6 cold damage, half on a miss, and has a 20 foot cylinder radius, both Punch and Scatter are weak. And Punch and Scatter would suck for people who took lower damage die ranged weapons.

I think I should make them strict damage dice. Something like 3d8 + Dex damage. Scatter has terrible range, but great spread. Punch has terrible spread, but could go hundreds of feet with the right rolls. Do you think Punch should be higher damage, like 4d8? Or is having both of them 3d8 fine?

Thank you so, so, so much for all your comments - you have done a considerable job in helping me improve the class. I can't wait for your comments regarding the specializations. I absolutely take no offense; what's there to take offense about? It's a game, after all, not a person.

[Kerleth]

You have edited it. I caught you! lol. Couple of things before I get to the subclasses.

Daily Abilities: Nitpick of triviality +2! 5th edition tends to say "between long rests" or "recover after completing a long rest" not "per day."

Holy Arrow, Batman: Very good point about the resistance to damage. Still slightly concerned though. After all, at 8th level it isn't unrealistic to expect you to be doing 1d8+5 damage (that is a 20 dex and nothing special). That is an average of 9.5, which cut in half is 4.75. This is for something you have to prepare ahead of time, and uses up supplies. A single vanilla +1 bow also ignores all those resistances, making the arrow pretty much useless as soon as you get it. How about flavor it that you convert the holy water to a special kind of gel that can be placed on the arrowhead without evaporating. Then just make the arrow deal radiant damage. It follows the mechanic of the other two "change damage type" special arrows. Turning something into radiant damage is probably more valuable than turning it into bludgeoning or slashing, but the supplies expended are likely more valuable too. That way it stops being the only unique arrow that has the potential to lose usefulness as you level.

Hip Shield: I stand by this just being silly. Mechanically, +1 AC is a useful ability. But attaching a shield to your hip? It looks silly. It blurs the distinction between shield and armor. It makes you ask what special ability you have that only a 9th level bowmaster can tie it to his hip. Is it because it is so ungainly and awkward that you had to specially train yourself to deal with this? Most glaringly of all, it doesn't seem to fit very well with the theme of the class. Sure, you make special ammo, so there is some similarity there, I give you that. But the class seems to be based around awareness, precision, and skill. What if instead you use the sense of timing and precision you gained as a tactical master archer to dodge at just the right moment, and get a +1 AC. It also then is more similar to the other ability you pick at this level, flavor wise.

Momentous Arrows
The "spend a bonus action to use your action" is just really weird wording. I think it also makes it the only ability to burn both your normal action and bonus action. If there isn't a balance reason for this, I would drop it to just using your action.
I have a rule of thumb for multitarget attacks. It has worked pretty well for me, and I gained it by observing what didn't work in other games. If you are going to have a multitarget attack it should do 75% your normal damage against two targets, or 50% against 3+. Less than that and it is very rarely useful. IF it is limited use, it can afford to be more. Your ability is gonna be usable probably 2-5 times per short rest, so I would balance it similar to at-will. SCATTER SHOT is PERFECT. Don't change it. If you do I will cry.
PUNCH SHOT needs a boost. Compare it to scatter. A line generally is harder to catch multiple enemies in than a cone in my experience, but this does have a lot better range, so I'd call that even. However, if it misses the first enemy, the ability stops. That would be like having everyone make saves against scatter shot in order, one by one, and as soon as someone passed nobody left takes any damage from it. Maybe just make Punch Shot (still say piercing shot sounds better :smallamused:) a line that everyone makes a reflex against like scatter shot?
RESTRAINING SHOT actually looks pretty good now. Not sure if you changed it, or if I just wasn't thinking straight before. I would change it to a strength save though. It makes a lot more sense than constitution when you are pinning someone to the ground with an arrow. I'd also get rid of the "whenever they take damage" clause. Bookkeeping that doesn't add THAT much to the play experience. If it is a balance issue, maybe make it where they can spend their action to pull free? Then they at least lost a turn, but aren't permastuck.
Actually, I just had great idea. Getting plugged by a single arrow always seemed kinda "meh". Cool thought, but what is this super arrow made from?! So make ALL the momentous shots take 10 ammo. Then punch shot could be a line of swiftly fired shots, and restraining shot is getting stuck to the wall by a flurry of arrows, rather than a single mysterious power arrow. Much cooler imagery, IMO.

You know, I just saw how long this post is :smallredface:. Think I'll put off looking at those subclasses for the moment.

[bloodshed343]

Reading all of this, my only problem is with hip shield. There's no reason a 9th level bowmaster is better at tying shields to his hip than the average commoner. Maybe just make him dodge better.

Edit: Kerleth said it :P. I meant bonus action dodge though. I think a bonus action dodge would be thematically appropriate for this character.

[Leuku]

Daily Abilities: Nitpick of triviality +2! 5th edition tends to say "between long rests" or "recover after completing a long rest" not "per day."

I'll... deal with that later.


Holy Arrow, Batman:How about flavor it that you convert the holy water to a special kind of gel that can be placed on the arrowhead without evaporating. Then just make the arrow deal radiant damage. It follows the mechanic of the other two "change damage type" special arrows. Turning something into radiant damage is probably more valuable than turning it into bludgeoning or slashing, but the supplies expended are likely more valuable too. That way it stops being the only unique arrow that has the potential to lose usefulness as you level.

Done!


Hip Shield: I stand by this just being silly. Mechanically, +1 AC is a useful ability. But attaching a shield to your hip? It looks silly. It blurs the distinction between shield and armor. It makes you ask what special ability you have that only a 9th level bowmaster can tie it to his hip. Is it because it is so ungainly and awkward that you had to specially train yourself to deal with this? Most glaringly of all, it doesn't seem to fit very well with the theme of the class. Sure, you make special ammo, so there is some similarity there, I give you that. But the class seems to be based around awareness, precision, and skill. What if instead you use the sense of timing and precision you gained as a tactical master archer to dodge at just the right moment, and get a +1 AC. It also then is more similar to the other ability you pick at this level, flavor wise.

Ultimately, this sounds like a flavor text problem rather than a mechanics problem, which is good because flavor text is the easiest thing to change. But what do you think about SpawnofMorbo's suggestion that it be switched to a Bonus Action Dodge feature?


The "spend a bonus action to use your action" is just really weird wording. I think it also makes it the only ability to burn both your normal action and bonus action. If there isn't a balance reason for this, I would drop it to just using your action.

It IS really weird wording. I have yet to think of a way around it. It makes sense in my head that it would consume both a bonus action and an action; Bonus action to prepare the special ammunition or take the extra time to aim in just the right way, then action to fire. I'm not entirely sure if it's a balance issue.


I have a rule of thumb for multitarget attacks. It has worked pretty well for me, and I gained it by observing what didn't work in other games. If you are going to have a multitarget attack it should do 75% your normal damage against two targets, or 50% against 3+. Less than that and it is very rarely useful. IF it is limited use, it can afford to be more. Your ability is gonna be usable probably 2-5 times per short rest, so I would balance it similar to at-will. SCATTER SHOT is PERFECT. Don't change it. If you do I will cry.

Alright, no damage change.


PUNCH SHOT needs a boost. Compare it to scatter. A line generally is harder to catch multiple enemies in than a cone in my experience, but this does have a lot better range, so I'd call that even. However, if it misses the first enemy, the ability stops. That would be like having everyone make saves against scatter shot in order, one by one, and as soon as someone passed nobody left takes any damage from it. Maybe just make Punch Shot (still say piercing shot sounds better :smallamused:) a line that everyone makes a reflex against like scatter shot?

If I combine this with what you said later about making each Momentous Technique consume a bunch of ammunition, then yeah it makes sense to make it a Dex Save rather than an attack roll. I worry a little about the two being too similar that way; the only difference between the two then would be Cone vs. Line. Maybe it should be a Constitution save, basically weathering the storm.

If it were a hail of arrows in a line rather than a single arrow, then NEITHER Punch nor Piercing shot would make sense. Maybe rename it... Hail Storm. Or Thunder Hail. Or Tryptophobic Shot. Or Swiss Cutter.


RESTRAINING SHOT actually looks pretty good now. Not sure if you changed it, or if I just wasn't thinking straight before. I would change it to a strength save though. It makes a lot more sense than constitution when you are pinning someone to the ground with an arrow. I'd also get rid of the "whenever they take damage" clause. Bookkeeping that doesn't add THAT much to the play experience. If it is a balance issue, maybe make it where they can spend their action to pull free? Then they at least lost a turn, but aren't permastuck.

Restraining Shot has stayed the same. Strength Save does make more sense. I'll change it to Strength.

The "Whenever they take damage" is for balance on behalf of the creature suffering the effect. Restraining is a very powerful effect, so there should be many opportunities to rid oneself of the effect. Regarding pulling free, I could make it an action to make an Athletics check vs. Bowmaster save DC to pull out all the arrows.


Actually, I just had great idea. Getting plugged by a single arrow always seemed kinda "meh". Cool thought, but what is this super arrow made from?! So make ALL the momentous shots take 10 ammo. Then punch shot could be a line of swiftly fired shots, and restraining shot is getting stuck to the wall by a flurry of arrows, rather than a single mysterious power arrow. Much cooler imagery, IMO.

Hmm. The reason why Restraining Shot is not limited by short rest is because despite its powerful effect it is not a multi-attack. If I made it consume 10 ammunition, it would greatly reduce the frequency with which one could use it. The reason why Scatter Shot necessarily began requiring more ammunition is because there's no way getting around the fact that it should require more ammunition. Hmm. Maybe I should make Restraining Shot a 10 foot cube within normal weapon range? Deals no damage, but potentially restrains multiple creatures.


You know, I just saw how long this post is :smallredface:. Think I'll put off looking at those subclasses for the moment.

Noooo. It's not long at all. You should see the posts I made for someone's Rogue Subclass! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?385351-The-Techsmith-alchemist-and-engineer-extraordinaire!-(rogue-subclass))

If anyone should be embarrassed, it's me!

[bloodshed343]

In my opinion, a bonus action dodge is more in line with 5e design that a flat ac boost.

Other slight nit-picks: I don't quite understand how net arrow works.

[Leuku]

In my opinion, a bonus action dodge is more in line with 5e design that a flat ac boost.

But... Defense Fighting Style is the definitive 5e flat AC boost.


Other slight nit-picks: I don't quite understand how net arrow works.

Functions exactly how the normal Net works, except you can use your ranged weapon's range and your Bowmaster save DC. Once you settle whether the creature is hit by your Net Arrow, it behaves just like a normal net. Which reminds me, I should note that a creature has advantage on its saving throw against the net if you fire the ammunition at long range.

[bloodshed343]

But... Defense Fighting Style is the definitive 5e flat AC boost.



Functions exactly how the normal Net works, except you can use your ranged weapon's range and your Bowmaster save DC. Once you settle whether the creature is hit by your Net Arrow, it behaves just like a normal net. Which reminds me, I should note that a creature has advantage on its saving throw against the net if you fire the ammunition at long range.

I forgot about defense fighting style...

How do you fire a net from a bow? I can imagine firing a small Bola from a crossbow, but...

Maybe the net is stretched between two arrows? I dunno. Seems like it would take at least two arrows to work.

[Leuku]

It's Net Ammunition, not just a net.

Unique Ammunition are specially constructed ammunition that a character takes a specific amount of time, gold, and materials to construct.
Holy ammunition is not just a flask of holy water tied to the shaft of an arrow.
Leather Glove ammunition is not just leather strapped to the tip of an arrow.
Rope Cable ammunition is not just rope tied to the end of an arrow.

And Net ammunition is not just a net affixed to an arrow.

All unique ammunition are crafted specially to produce the effect of the items they consume to make them.

So imagine a net arrow being an arrow with a special compressed compartment instead of an arrow tip. After a certain amount of time since being fired, the compartment on the tip opens to release something like a spring-loaded net that is designed to expand upon release. Then you've got a net.

[bloodshed343]

It's Net Ammunition, not just a net.

Unique Ammunition are specially constructed ammunition that a character takes a specific amount of time, gold, and materials to construct.
Holy ammunition is not just a flask of holy water tied to the shaft of an arrow.
Leather Glove ammunition is not just leather strapped to the tip of an arrow.
Rope Cable ammunition is not just rope tied to the end of an arrow.

And Net ammunition is not just a net affixed to an arrow.

All unique ammunition are crafted specially to produce the effect of the items they consume to make them.

So imagine a net arrow being an arrow with a special compressed compartment instead of an arrow tip. After a certain amount of time since being fired, the compartment on the tip opens to release something like a spring-loaded net that is designed to expand upon release. Then you've got a net.

Ahh, that makes more sense. Thanks.

[bloodshed343]

Is there a formula or other system you used to determine the point cost of your trick shot abilities? I can't seem to get it right. To me, split tree shot is more powerful than power shot or far shot, and should be worth more. Quick shot should only cost one to be in line with the monk bonus attack feature, or maybe only monk should have a 1 point bonus attack. I dunno. Anyway, I have a thread going in the recruitment forum to run a game with all homebrew classes/archetypes and I'm really interested to see how bowmaster plays.

[Leuku]

Is there a formula or other system you used to determine the point cost of your trick shot abilities? I can't seem to get it right. To me, split tree shot is more powerful than power shot or far shot, and should be worth more. Quick shot should only cost one to be in line with the monk bonus attack feature, or maybe only monk should have a 1 point bonus attack. I dunno. Anyway, I have a thread going in the recruitment forum to run a game with all homebrew classes/archetypes and I'm really interested to see how bowmaster plays.

I used the Metamagic as a baseline for it, then made adjustments based on my own judgment.

Split Tree shot is actually pretty weak. Dealing only half damage to both targets, especially when your attack damage will probably never exceed 1d10+5, is pretty superficial. And the limitation that both targets be within 10 feet of each other restricts the frequency by which this can be applied. I see it more as a generating Aggro ability rather than a monster killer.

Quick shot is a very different beast than the Monk's bonus action martial arts. The monk's damage die for martial arts is restricted by monk level; the Bowmaster's damage die is restricted by weapon damage. Weapon damage is more often than not much higher than the monk's until high levels. The monk and ONLY the monk gets a feature like bonus action martial arts because its damage die is restricted.

With than in mind, Quick Shot is worth much more than Split Tree Shot, because you don't reduce the amount of damage you deal, you don't have to target two different creatures, and you can target any creature within range rather than a creature within 10 feet of a different target.

I would love to play a Bowmaster in your campaign xD

[bloodshed343]

I'd also like to see the shaman class in play. We need a DM with a good eye for balance.


PS: wards are done as a point system, but I have no idea if they're balanced. I can't compare them to your Bowmaster because they're so different =/.

[Leuku]

I'd also like to see the shaman class in play. We need a DM with a good eye for balance.


PS: wards are done as a point system, but I have no idea if they're balanced. I can't compare them to your Bowmaster because they're so different =/.

Hmm. Wards should be examined based on their comparative strength to spells. What benefit does a ward provide and how does that compare to spell of X level? How many times can level Y wizard perform spell of X level? Depending on the answer, then lvl Y Swordmage should be able to perform ward Z number of times.

Pit a Swordmage at different levels against different monsters. How well can it defend/attack/confuddle said monster?

Eldritch Knight at Y level can manage T amount of combat efficacy. How much can Swordmage at Y level handle?

[bloodshed343]

Hmm. Wards should be examined based on their comparative strength to spells. What benefit does a ward provide and how does that compare to spell of X level? How many times can level Y wizard perform spell of X level? Depending on the answer, then lvl Y Swordmage should be able to perform ward Z number of times.

Pit a Swordmage at different levels against different monsters. How well can it defend/attack/confuddle said monster?

Eldritch Knight at Y level can manage T amount of combat efficacy. How much can Swordmage at Y level handle?

This is the point of finding a dm and running it through a campaign. Much more fun than maths. Thanks for all your help though :)

[Sindeloke]

Well, I promised I'd look at this, and so weeks and weeks later, here I am! :smallredface:

First off, I love the flavor, and that the mechanics feel unique; there are shades of monk, battlemaster, and sorceror in there but it still feels like its own animal, enough to justify being a base class. The combat styles are great too, although Greatbow Fighting is too weak. I mean, Great Weapon Fighting is already too weak and it lets you reroll 2s too. I'd go with "roll one extra damage die, drop lowest," because that's what you have to do to Great Weapon to make it match up to Dueling (although that might make Deadly Aim too strong... let me run some math and get back to you). I do like that it appears to apply to melee, too, though, since the bowslinger otherwise has to wait to 18 to get full benefit from his style.

I also love that it's Int-based. The game needs more Int classes, and it's particularly suited here.

I do think you might have gone too far with the theme, though, because this guy is absolutely and utterly boned without his signature weapon, something no other class suffers. Drop the party naked in a dungeon cell, and the casters can cantrip all day long, the fighters can drop superiority dice on their punches and do double grapples or quadruple moves, the rogue can still sneak, the paladin can cast or smite with a headbutt. 2/3 of bowmasters, though, can't use one single class feature until they find a guard who happens to carry a weapon no one carries indoors. This guy badly needs a Throw Anything feature that lets him use pebbles and pieces of straw proficiently, Bullseye-style. 1 damage is sufficient, as long as he can still apply tricks.

I also agree with SpawnOfMorbo about the bonus action dodge.

I think you also might have too many different ability pools to keep track of. 5e's watchword is simplicity, but a bowmaster is logging how much of what kind of ammunition he's carrying, whether he has supplies to make more, whether he's spent half an hour of a rest doing this or that, how many trick points he has left, and not one but *two* abilities that can be used an Int+ number of times per day, on separate counters. And that's just the base class, while the poor arcane archer is also tracking spells...

I don't think you lose anything meaningful by paring it down a bit. Just give Int mod trick points and one piece of ammunition after every short rest from the start. The players and DMs can abstract it however they like, and it plays nicer with a campaign that uses different rest lengths. I think you could pretty easily eliminate the need for equipment to make ammunition, too; you already have a hard limit on how many you can carry, you're not going to break anything by letting your bowmaster just assume he's got some leather and metal shards in his fletcher's kit and not have to blow 4-10 gold per day just to use his basic class features. Maybe keep the cost for radiant arrows and for higher-level effects, but certainly glove and razor edge shouldn't require anything special beyond the opportunity cost of other ammunition.

The tricks themselves also suffer from the same problem the Battlemaster's maneuvers do. With the whole pool available from the start, you get to 17th level and you're stuck choosing from abilities balanced for 3rd-level play that you didn't want enough to take back then. It would be nice to have some more powerful, level-gated tricks to give a sense of progression. Not necessary, I think the current tricks are all nice enough that I'd still have stuff I was interested in, but still nice. :smallsmile:

Beyond that I love it; I would think with portals or rock bowjudo in a heartbeat, both sound ridiculously fun, and I know a halfling or two who'd love to have their skiprock bank-shots back.