Lowering the challenge of Vampires

[Darth_Versity]

So Ill be running a game in the new year where the PC's are sailors (probably pirates) that get attacked by seafaring vampires (Vampirates!). They will only be around level 5 at the start and will obviously get overwhelmed, but rescued by some wonderful NPC's with their own aggenda who offer help in the form of a magic Thurible that will cause the Daylight spell to act as true sunlight when cast upon it.

Now this will give them a serious advantage by suppressing the vampires regenerative abilities and causing them damage every round. As such, i'm trying to work what their new challenge would be. They are still a serious threat, but the Vampire Spawn will only survive 5 rounds even if the PC's do no other damage and the Vampire captain will only last 8 rounds.

Obviously all of them will attempt to avoid or extinguish the light if possible, but it places them at a serious disadvantage. I am thinking around Challenge 2 for the Spawns and 8 for the Vampire, but what do you guys think?

TL:DR
What would the Challenge of Vampires and Vampire Spawn be if players had a mobile form of sunlight?

[pwykersotz]

It depends on how smart the vampires are played. If you're playing them to just fight to the death with few tactics (like charming the NPC or fleeing to a safe distance once the light comes out) then their CR is pretty darned low. They have disadvantage on all their attacks too, so they'll average 13.5 to hit for unimpressive damage. Spitballing it, I might lower them to CR 5 in that case. They're also in massively disadvantaged terrain at sea. All it takes is one grapple/leap to increase that damage to 40/round thanks to the water.

[Darth_Versity]

Ah, sorry. I forgot to mention that the second time they face each other will be in the vampires lair, which will remove the water from the equation.

[Giant2005]

Their CRs shouldn't be lowered at all.
The Vampires aren't any weaker, they are just fighting in disadvantageous circumstances. Disadvantageous circumstances don't change the CR of the monsters - lowering their CR because of such circumstances would be like lowering the CR of a group of bandits because the players ambushed them or lowering the CR of an Ogre because the party killed it while it was asleep.

[Madfellow]

So Ill be running a game in the new year where the PC's are sailors (probably pirates) that get attacked by seafaring vampires (Vampirates!). They will only be around level 5 at the start and they will obviously get overwhelmed, but rescued by some wonderful NPC's with their own agenda who offer help in the form of a magic Thurible that will cause the Daylight spell to act as true sunlight when cast upon it.

Bad idea. Nobody likes a Deus ex Machina, ESPECIALLY in the context of a tabletop RPG.

My advice: If they're starting the game at level 5, start them off with CR 5 threats, like vampire spawn. Don't put them up against a true vampire until they get to level 12. Seriously.

And if you really can't wait to send them up against true vampires, then start them at level 12.

[Darth_Versity]

Bad idea. Nobody likes a Deus ex Machina, ESPECIALLY in the context of a tabletop RPG.

My advice: If they're starting the game at level 5, start them off with CR 5 threats, like vampire spawn. Don't put them up against a true vampire until they get to level 12. Seriously.

And if you really can't wait to send them up against true vampires, then start them at level 12.

But the whole plot line revolves around the two factions and their interaction with eachother. The vampires are the obvious threat, which the group that save the PC's encourage them to destroy, but in the end the greater evil is actually the rescuers who were kept in check by the vampires. I require the PC's to owe this mysterious group a favour and saving their lives is a fairly good way to create that.

My players are mature enough to accept a small auto loss in return for a good plot :smallamused:

[Madfellow]

I require the PC's to owe this mysterious group a favour and saving their lives is a fairly good way to create that.

My players are mature enough to accept a small auto loss in return for a good plot :smallamused:

My advice is to find some other way for the party to owe them. They can provide resources (such as the shiny bauble you mentioned), but they shouldn't be physically stronger than the party and they shouldn't use said strength to save the party from an otherwise hopeless fight.

A good plot doesn't involve a Deus ex Machina, young Grasshopper.

[Darth_Versity]

My advice is to find some other way for the party to owe them. They can provide resources (such as the shiny bauble you mentioned), but they shouldn't be physically stronger than the party and they shouldn't use said strength to save the party from an otherwise hopeless fight.

A good plot doesn't involve a Deus ex Machina, young Grasshopper.

But they're not more powerful than the PC's. If they were then they wouldn't need the PC's. They save them from the vampires, they don't run in and slaughter the vampires.

[Starsinger]

Bad idea. Nobody likes a Deus ex Machina, ESPECIALLY in the context of a tabletop RPG.

I disagree with you here. Everyone enjoys the scene where Gandalf rides up on the third day and suddenly the tides turn at Helm's Deep. The key is you don't let the players feel like they were totally helpless until then. As long as it's not some curb stompy battle where the PCs are suddenly rescued, it should be fine


But they're not more powerful than the PC's. If they were then they wouldn't need the PC's. They save them from the vampires, they don't run in and slaughter the vampires.

It's not that they're more powerful than the PCs, they were just prepared to fight vampires and the PCs weren't. I don't necessarily see any harm in the scenario as you've laid it out. You said your PCs were mature enough to handle not being the only people who can do things in the world, so I think you'll be fine. But yeah, don't lower the CR of the vampires.

[pwykersotz]

Their CRs shouldn't be lowered at all.
The Vampires aren't any weaker, they are just fighting in disadvantageous circumstances. Disadvantageous circumstances don't change the CR of the monsters - lowering their CR because of such circumstances would be like lowering the CR of a group of bandits because the players ambushed them or lowering the CR of an Ogre because the party killed it while it was asleep.

Ordinarily I'd agree. However, when the DM is determining challenge rating for exp awards and encounter difficulty, it's very necessary to adjust based on what you set up ahead of time.

For example, if I had a Green Dragon who had polymorphed into a human and gotten stuck, I wouldn't make him a CR 15 even though in normally advantaged situations he is that powerful. The entire scope of the combat and everything the PC's interact with is commoner level, so that's how I'd provision exp for the encounter.

If the party uses skill or even just gets lucky, the CR and exp allocation shouldn't change. However, if it's a DM setup to begin with and they aren't going to use their full power, I believe the CR should be decreased.

[Frenth Alunril]

Deus ex mechana is literally when gods break the rules and save the story. The story of Benjamin Cisco in DS9 is Deus ex mechana.

What is proposed is similar to when Daryl gets claimed by the claimers in The Walking Dead. He's kinda forced to go along until he finds a way out. That is being railroaded, no doubt about it, it sucks and no one likes it, but let's not conflate the railroad with dm divinity.

I'm actually prepping the guide npc I was given at the beginning for horrible death. Was he a bit op and an occasional train conductor? Certainly!

Will he shine one last time? As bright as the sun.

Will they miss him when he's gone? you bet!

I guess, I'm saying, as long as they have a reason to save the PCs and aren't too op, you can use them without it being a bad story.

Hell, look at fright night, I wouldn't even change the cr of the vampires.

[MaxWilson]

So Ill be running a game in the new year where the PC's are sailors (probably pirates) that get attacked by seafaring vampires (Vampirates!). They will only be around level 5 at the start and will obviously get overwhelmed, but rescued by some wonderful NPC's with their own aggenda who offer help in the form of a magic Thurible that will cause the Daylight spell to act as true sunlight when cast upon it.

Now this will give them a serious advantage by suppressing the vampires regenerative abilities and causing them damage every round. As such, i'm trying to work what their new challenge would be. They are still a serious threat, but the Vampire Spawn will only survive 5 rounds even if the PC's do no other damage and the Vampire captain will only last 8 rounds.

Obviously all of them will attempt to avoid or extinguish the light if possible, but it places them at a serious disadvantage. I am thinking around Challenge 2 for the Spawns and 8 for the Vampire, but what do you guys think?

According to the 5E DMG, the correct way to adjust experience point awards when PCs receive NPC help is not to alter the CR of the monsters, but to award the NPCs a share of the experience.


If the party received substantial assistance from one or more NPCs, count those NPCs as party members when dividing up the XP.

[Dalebert]

Agree with the term railroading as opposed to deus ex machina. The PCs will be justifiably annoyed if you're railroading them all the time, but railroading is okay very occasionally as a key plot point in the overall story arc. D&D should follow general rules of storytelling if you want it to have that same dramatic appeal, and an occasional dash of railroading may be necessary. Use with discretion. The PCs should have a significant hand in the writing of that story as well.